S04.E03: The Crossing

[Whimsy]

Quote

Captured by Gilead, June faces a vengeful Aunt Lydia and endures a torturous interrogation. Nick and Lawrence collaborate to protect June. In Toronto, Luke struggles with how to help June and Hannah.

original airdate 4/28/2021

[mamadrama]

Well, the last few minutes like to have given me a heart attack. Poor Alma. 😥

[Umbelina]

Holy crap.

Well, I'll give them this, nothing was very predictable.

Damn.

That train.

Could have done without the torture porn for so long, but it had to be there.  I really thought we were going to see the breeding farm.  At least we are out of Boston.

[chocolatine]

Fuck this show.

[Brn2bwild]

I wonder if they were bluffing about hurting Hannah.  Did you have a sense of what that glass box was going to be used for (*gulp* gas)?

[AntFTW]

They find a way to make the show major plot points predictable without the path to the major plot points being predictable.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Even though June was still in Gilead for the first two episodes, it was still a respite from the usual Gilead stuff because I didn't have to see most of the usual misogyny, subjugation, and rape that normally comes with the territory. But now we're back with all the accompanying violence and misery. The only difference this time is that there's an inappropriately cheerful torturer.

It grossed me out to see Nick and Commander Lawrence conspiring to get June to rat out the location of the other girls. And of course it worked because Hanna is her weak spot. I had to shake my head when Nick admitted his part in using her daughter as a pawn to get her to betray her friends and her response was to run back so she could kiss him and tell him that she loved him. And weren't there guardians watching? That didn't seem very discreet.

Lydia is nothing if not consistent. "Everything is YOUR FAULT!" Only she would describe being sent to a breeding colony as "the start of a new adventure."

The body count from this episode alone was pretty high - the two girls on the roof plus all the handmaids who were on the run except for June and Janine. And the six commanders who got poisoned by June at the brothel and died.

Edited April 28, 2021 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Brn2bwild]

53 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Even though June was still in Gilead for the first two episodes, it was still a respite from the usual Gilead stuff because I didn't have to see most of the usual misogyny, subjugation, and rape that normally comes with the territory. But now we're back with all the accompanying violence and misery. The only difference this time is that there's an inappropriately cheerful torturer.

It grossed me out to see Nick and Commander Lawrence conspiring to get June to rat out the location of the other girls. And of course it worked because Hanna is her weak spot. I had to shake my head when Nick admitted his part in using her daughter as a pawn to get her to betray her friends and her response was to run back so she could kiss him and tell him that she loved him. And weren't there guardians watching? That didn't seem very discreet.

Lydia is nothing if not consistent. "Everything is YOUR FAULT!" Only she would describe being sent to a breeding colony as "the start of a new adventure."

The body count from this episode alone was pretty high - the two girls on the roof plus all the handmaids who were on the run except for June and Janine. And the six commanders who got poisoned by June at the brothel and died.

Do we know that all the other handmaids died?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

19 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Do we know that all the other handmaids died?

There were six handmaids in the van. One was shot before they got to the train tracks. Three were hit by the train. In the final shot, the handmaid who was shot is the only one visible on the other side of the train tracks so I'm assuming that the three who were hit by the train didn't survive.

[jenn31]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Fuck this show.

My sentiments exactly. They’re going to drag this shit out season after season. With Mighty June at the helm, getting more and more handmaids killed. There won’t be any left soon if they keep following their fearless leader. I’m surprised they haven’t ousted her by now. 

[LordOfLotion]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Holy crap.

Well, I'll give them this, nothing was very predictable.

Damn.

That train.

Could have done without the torture porn for so long, but it had to be there.  I really thought we were going to see the breeding farm.  At least we are out of Boston.

I skip through the torture porn. I get it. They're torturing her. I don't need to see every second of it. With sequences like this I'm stunned they weren't able to pad it out to 13 episodes again this season.

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Fuck this show.

This show is my train wreck now.

[jenn31]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, I'll give them this, nothing was very predictable

I thought it was completely predictable. They were caught, AGAIN. June got more handmaids killed, AGAIN. June put on her smug grimace AGAIN.

[goldilocks]

How many times is June going to escape and be captured? 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It grossed me out to see Nick and Commander Lawrence conspiring to get June to rat out the location of the other girls. And of course it worked because Hanna is her weak spot. I had to shake my head when Nick admitted his part in using her daughter as a pawn to get her to betray her friends and her response was to run back so she could kiss him and tell him that she loved him. And weren't there guardians watching? That didn't seem very discreet.

That seriously bothered me.

I don't care that they kissed.  I understand June, even though she was ready to die, realizing she was still happy to be alive and it was due to him.  What I DO NOT understand is Nick kissing her in front of the people in the damn van.  Lydia was in that van!  I could buy that the driver was in Nick's pocket, but Lydia?

*(may take this conversation over to the sequel thread)

 

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Lydia is nothing if not consistent. "Everything is YOUR FAULT!" Only she would describe being sent to a breeding colony as "the start of a new adventure."

I was actually kind of expecting to see the breeding colony play out for a few episodes.  If I were a handmaid, I think I'd prefer that.  Yes, harder work, but realistically, they aren't going to do anything that would make it more difficult for them to conceive and carry a baby to term.  So for at least most of the month, they wouldn't have to be under the thumb (and more) of a commander and his wife and stuck in Boston.  I also thought it might offer more escape opportunities.  

That said, I LOVED June saying "YOUR FAULT!" to Lydia over and over again, a callback to the indoctrination of the handmaids in season one, when one poor girl recalled being raped.

 

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The body count from this episode alone was pretty high - the two girls on the roof plus all the handmaids who were on the run except for June and Janine. And the six commanders who got poisoned by June at the brothel and died.

I love that the revolution is, while still in it's relative infancy, finally showing what this kind of "war" is really like.  Fighting for freedom in a very oppressed country isn't some coffee-table war, it's real, and no matter what side of it you are on?  People die.  If anything, the oppressed die more, because they are so much less equipped.

It is horrible, but if only "red shirts" die, there is no impact, and no reality of the consequences of fighting for freedom.

In spite of the deaths?  The rebels are ahead right now, with that plane taking so many to freedom.  Killing or capturing so many commanders is pretty amazing as well, and hopefully only the beginning.

 

9 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I wonder if they were bluffing about hurting Hannah.  Did you have a sense of what that glass box was going to be used for (*gulp* gas)?

I thought it was so whatever they did to Hannah would be seen and heard by June.  I don't think they were bluffing, but I do think they thought June would break before letting anything happen.  I don't think they would severely damage Hannah, she's about ready to be a wife there.  I do think there are many ways to put her through terrible pain without lasting damage though.

Having the scene before with them killing the two on the roof was important though, to show June they were not playing, and that anything was possible with Hannah.

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

They find a way to make the show major plot points predictable without the path to the major plot points being predictable.

I'm not sure what you mean.  ?  Except for the torture (which was inevitable) I didn't really find much of this predictable.  Actually I seriously appreciated that they surprised me.  I also appreciated that while June WAS caught, which was logical, she actually escaped again, and so soon.

Not killing Lydia was problematic for me though, I get it, but in that moment, it didn't seem real that June would let her live, my one, "no way" moment.  

4 minutes ago, LordOfLotion said:

I skip through the torture porn. I get it. They're torturing her. I don't need to see every second of it. With sequences like this I'm stunned they weren't able to pad it out to 13 episodes again this season.

This show is my train wreck now.

I'll skip most of that on rewatch, but I sat through it the first time, not sure exactly what would happen.  Really good acting on everyone's part though, from Lydia, to the smiling commander, to Nick and Commander Lawrence, to the women on the roof, everyone brought their A game.

(Speaking of Nick and Lawrence, where are they going with that? I did love that Lawrence gave a reason he hasn't been killed though.)

3 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

I thought it was completely predictable. They were caught, AGAIN. June got more handmaids killed, AGAIN. June put on her smug grimace AGAIN.

June didn't get anyone killed.  Gilead did.  All of those women and their helpers are risking their lives for their country, and their fellow imprisoned and tortured Americans.  

In any group leaders emerge, especially in gorilla style war.  There is no rank or insignia, just people, and some will inevitably lead, just as the Martha's in Boston had leaders, before June was all in with Mayday.

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

8 hours ago, AntFTW said:

They find a way to make the show major plot points predictable without the path to the major plot points being predictable.

I'm not sure what you mean.  ?  Except for the torture (which was inevitable) I didn't really find much of this predictable.  Actually I seriously appreciated that they surprised me.  I also appreciated that while June WAS caught, which was logical, she actually escaped again, and so soon.

Not killing Lydia was problematic for me though, I get it, but in that moment, it didn't seem real that June would let her live, my one, "no way" moment.  

I thought they had to keep the story going basically creating a "tug of war" of being close to escaping and being dragged right back to clutches of Gilead.

After watching season 3, I already assumed they were gonna get caught, and even thought that most would die. For me, the parts of getting caught and many of them dying was predictable. How I thought that would come to happen completely differs from what we actually got.

Edited April 28, 2021 by AntFTW

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I thought they had to keep the story going basically creating a "tug of war" of being close to escaping and being dragged right back to clutches of Gilead.

After watching season 3, I already assumed they were gonna get caught, and even thought that most of would die. For me, the parts of getting caught and many of them dying was predictable. How I thought that would come to happen completely differs from what we actually got.

Yeah, I really thought the whole Magdalene thing would work, change of scene, easier to escape than the van, good place to dawdle away from the now boring as hell Boston.  

I was happy they didn't waste time and let June and Janine escape, just sad to lose Alma and the others, even though only a few making it makes logical sense.  

[LBS]

I haven’t read the comments because I don’t want to spoil myself but I’ve heard that this episode is “torture porn” like.  Is it really that bad?  If so I may skip and just read the Vulture recap.   I get really anxious watching those kinds of scenes but I also don’t want to miss any emotional development.  TIA. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by LBS

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, LBS said:

I haven’t read the comments because I don’t want to spoil myself but I’ve heard that this episode is “torture porn” like.  Is it really that bad?  If so I may skip and just read the Vulture recap.   I get really anxious watching those kinds of scenes but I also don’t want to miss any emotional development.  TIA. 

Yes.

You probably AT LEAST want to watch the last 10-15 minutes though, or just FF through the sprinkled throughout the beginning torture scenes.  However, no one is describing them in this thread.

You WILL be spoiled on some major things if you read it first though.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, jenn31 said:

With Mighty June at the helm, getting more and more handmaids killed. There won’t be any left soon if they keep following their fearless leader. I’m surprised they haven’t ousted her by now. 

What bothers me the most is that June is not "special" in any way. All of the handmaids are in the exact same situation, they all have children somewhere in Gilead and desperately want to be reunited with them. I can see some of the less savvy handmaids like Janine following June's lead, but someone as smart as Alma would have surely realized by now that June's recklessness does more harm than good. Obviously, there is no guaranteed safe way to get their children and get out of Gilead, but the longer they stick with June, the less likely they are to reach that goal. 

3 hours ago, LordOfLotion said:

I skip through the torture porn. I get it. They're torturing her. I don't need to see every second of it.

It also irks me that while they spend so much time showing the torture scenes, June never gets tortured in a way that leaves permanently visible damage. We've seen other handmaids lose eyes and hands for the tiniest infractions, even Serena lost a finger, but all June gets is some waterboarding (which I know is terrible in other ways) and a day or two in a confined space. The Jolly Torturer was about to pull out her fingernails, but she staved that off by giving him some false information. The way they really "torture" her is kill the people who helped her, like Lawrence's two Marthas and the bread truck driver in S2, but that never deters her.

33 minutes ago, LBS said:

I haven’t read the comments because I don’t want to spoil myself but I’ve heard that this episode is “torture porn” like.  Is it really that bad?

The torture porn is bad, but it's not the worst part of the episode.

Edited April 28, 2021 by chocolatine

[LBS]

@chocolatine @Umbelina  thank you for the quick response!  I’m going to play it by ear and if it gets too graphic for me, I’ll turn off.  Fair warned is fair armed.  Thanks again!

Edited April 28, 2021 by LBS

[Umbelina]

I think the scene in the van showed that no one is blindly following June.  She looked at each of them, for confirmation, and it may have even been Alma or another who gave the first signal to take Lydia, Lydia was just closest to June, in a better position to grab the taser anyway, across from her.

In distracting the guards last season, allowing the plane to get away, and getting shot for it?  That kind of thing impresses "troops."  

Either way, June is our protagonist in this story, and I do believe that she's had amazing success, along with terrible losses.  Getting 95 people out of Gilead, including 86 kids?  It wasn't all her work, but it WAS her idea.

Also, she is connected, with Nick, and then with Lawrence.  I don't think Lawrence was a mistake either.  Before that, she had Fred wrapped, then she even managed to connect with Serena.  June's also been "out" before, has more experience outside of Boston than most of them.  They have more experience with making bombs though.  It balances.  

It's hard to explain those that automatically take over leadership roles, when it isn't all about rank.  We see it all the time in real life though, from the playground on.  I can buy June has those qualities, and I don't think anyone is blindly following her.  They are all in it for very good reasons, escaping from hell being just one of those reasons.

5 minutes ago, LBS said:

@chocolatine @Umbelina  thank you for the quick response!  I’m going to play it by ear and if it gets too graphic for me, I’ll turn off.  Fair warned is fair armed.  Thanks again!

Don't read the end.  Watch it.  You can FF through the torture scenes.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Umbelina

[Quickbeam]

Nice touch the Magdalene colonies. Atwood once said when she wrote the Handmaid’s Tale she used actual things that were done to women historically. The Magdalene laundries in Ireland were notorious for imprisoning women for free labor *right up to the 1980s, perhaps longer*. Ireland has been forced to apologize for looking the other way. 

[AntFTW]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think the scene in the van showed that no one is blindly following June.  She looked at each of them, for confirmation, and it may have even been Alma or another who gave the first signal to take Lydia, Lydia was just closest to June, in a better position to grab the taser anyway, across from her.

In distracting the guards last season, allowing the plane to get away, and getting shot for it?  That kind of thing impresses "troops."  

Either way, June is our protagonist in this story, and I do believe that she's had amazing success, along with terrible losses.  Getting 95 people out of Gilead, including 86 kids?  It wasn't all her work, but it WAS her idea.

Also, she is connected, with Nick, and then with Lawrence.  I don't think Lawrence was a mistake either.  Before that, she had Fred wrapped, then she even managed to connect with Serena.  June's also been "out" before, has more experience outside of Boston than most of them.  They have more experience with making bombs though.  It balances.  

It's hard to explain those that automatically take over leadership roles, when it isn't all about rank.  We see it all the time in real life though, from the playground on.  I can buy June has those qualities, and I don't think anyone is blindly following her.  They are all in it for very good reasons, escaping from hell being just one of those reasons.

Agreed! I analogize that to being a herd of wildebeest or gazelles at a river crossing with croc infested waters, and waiting to see who is gonna be the first to jump in. Everyone wants to participate but at the same time, they look for affirmation. June provides that affirmation.

[bmoore4026]

3 hours ago, LordOfLotion said:

This show is my train wreck now.

I love you.

[The Mighty Peanut]

This is neither here nor their but what a beautiful little girl they have playing Hannah. Such pretty almond eyes and a sweet face. 

I don't blame her a bit for being afraid of June. It sucks but Hannah is like Asher, attached to her Marthas and her fake parents who she has now spent more time with than she did with her real parents. I think it's time for June to let go of trying to get out of Gilead with Hannah in tow. She's too valuable to be killed but they can do worse. They can maim her without affecting her reproductive organs. They can demote her and take her from the "parents" she loves to an abusive household.

They could set her up to become a handmaid as soon as she is of age. I can see Lydia's shit eating grin now. "Hannah will be entering a life of service as a handmaid! There is no greater gift, and to think, it's all because of you."

If June is a masterclass intelligence operative then let her arrange for Hannah's transportation from outside of Gilead. I'm not saying she should let go of her daughter, I'm saying at this point June's actions are putting Hannah in worse danger of becoming an Esther; of being sold off to someone known to practice gang rape or some other god awful thing, just to stick it to June. 

RIP Alma, you were one badass bitch. I still don't know why managing Esther Keyes was your job.

Edited April 28, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

This is neither here nor their but what a beautiful little girl they have playing Hannah. Such pretty almond eyes and a sweet face. 

I don't blame her a bit for being afraid of June. It sucks but Hannah is like Asher, attached to her Marthas and her fake parents who she has now spent more time with than she did with her real parents. I think it's time for June to let go of trying to get out of Gilead with Hannah in tow. She's too valuable to be killed but they can do worse. They can maim her without affecting her reproductive organs. They can demote her and take her from the "parents" she loves to an abusive household.

They could set her up to become a handmaid as soon as she is of age. I can see Lydia's shit eating grin now. "Hannah will be entering a life of service as a handmaid! There is no greater gift, and to think, it's all because of you."

If June is a masterclass intelligence operative then let her arrange for Hannah's transportation from outside of Gilead. I'm not saying she should let go of her daughter, I'm saying at this point June's actions are putting Hannah in worse danger of becoming an Esther; of being sold off to someone known to practice gang rape or some other god awful thing, just to stick it to June. 

RIP Alma, you were one badass bitch. I still don't know why managing Esther Keyes was your job.

I doubt it though.

Hannah is almost old enough to be a wife, and wives are rewards for the commanders/soldiers/eyes fighting the wars.  She's more valuable as a wife, and that is what she's being raised to be.

She looked about ready to have her period, and when she does, she'll be handed off just like Mrs. Keyes was.

I can understand June wanting to save Hannah from that, especially after meeting Mrs. Keyes.  June understands that being a "wife" is not freedom either, just a different kind of prison and rape.

---About managing Ester Keyes.  

She was the MOST IMPORTANT asset any of them had to stay alive, so yes, she needed to be managed.  Alma, being probably the most intelligent one there, should have known that.

That reminds me.  When all the girls were out partying, Alma says something like "this might be the only freedom they get."  

It was an interesting perspective, and there is truth to it, but that's a "winning a battle" point of view, rather than "winning a war" point of view.  

June's in it to take down all of Gilead, get as many out as she can.  She's willing to die for that, demonstrated a few times already, becoming a target to take the attention from the plane, being the one to approach the safe house first, deciding to give Nicole to Emily and stay behind to fight for Hannah.  Many, understandably, are trying to save their own lives.  June's trying to save others before herself.  

Mrs. Keyes has a lot of that in her as well.

She lives right?  I hope so.  I'm rewatching now, watched the first time while pretty sleepy.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In the final shot, the handmaid who was shot is the only one visible on the other side of the train tracks so I'm assuming that the three who were hit by the train didn't survive.

A train moving at that speed... they'd be lucky to find pieces.

I get that June is the protagonist and she's gonna survive so to a point I hand wave at the fact that June manages to never be dealt the permanent damage others have gotten - seems like in her case , cutting out her tongue would lead to a great reduction in other people being talked into dangerous schemes, but again, I'll let it go.

But why wasn't Lydia executed or massively demoted? She's fucked up royally with her "girls" over and over - OfGlenn/Emily escaped with a baby under her watch after killing guards. Jeanine did that crazy jump from the bridge in season one and continued to be a crazy pain in the ass despite Aunt Lydia's discipline. The other OfGlenn (I think her name was also OfGlenn) blew up a building and killed more handmaids than June AND more commanders. And who was keeping watch on all these handmaids? Aunt Lydia, that's who. How is she not at best being sent to one of the radioactive colonies?

Likewise Lawrence (who I like). It seems really hard to believe he wasn't tortured for his knowledge of what really went down with the kids - and it also seems unlikely the Marthas who escaped didn't mention him. I enjoy Lawrence's pithy pronouncements but it seems unlikely that he wouldn't have been purged. 

From a realism standpoint, I also question why Luke would be assigned anywhere near the renegade handmaid that  he illicitly impregnated behind his commander's back.

Its been exciting and I don't like saying "ditch known characters for new" but Gilead is supposed to be a big place and there should be others who can chase after June after she leaves the Boston area. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

A train moving at that speed... they'd be lucky to find pieces.

I get that June is the protagonist and she's gonna survive so to a point I hand wave at the fact that June manages to never be dealt the permanent damage others have gotten - seems like in her case , cutting out her tongue would lead to a great reduction in other people being talked into dangerous schemes, but again, I'll let it go.

But why wasn't Lydia executed or massively demoted? She's fucked up royally with her "girls" over and over - OfGlenn/Emily escaped with a baby under her watch after killing guards. Jeanine did that crazy jump from the bridge in season one and continued to be a crazy pain in the ass despite Aunt Lydia's discipline. The other OfGlenn (I think her name was also OfGlenn) blew up a building and killed more handmaids than June AND more commanders. And who was keeping watch on all these handmaids? Aunt Lydia, that's who. How is she not at best being sent to one of the radioactive colonies?

Likewise Lawrence (who I like). It seems really hard to believe he wasn't tortured for his knowledge of what really went down with the kids - and it also seems unlikely the Marthas who escaped didn't mention him. I enjoy Lawrence's pithy pronouncements but it seems unlikely that he wouldn't have been purged. 

From a realism standpoint, I also question why Luke would be assigned anywhere near the renegade handmaid that  he illicitly impregnated behind his commander's back.

Its been exciting and I don't like saying "ditch known characters for new" but Gilead is supposed to be a big place and there should be others who can chase after June after she leaves the Boston area. 

Taking them one at a time, good points!

June being disfigured means a lot more production time since she's in most scenes, most aren't disfigured in this show, she's been hurt, just not visibly after.  (the feet, etc.)  

Lydia's story involves spoilers, but happy to talk about it in the Testements thread if you want.  

Lawrence still being alive was kind of explained.  Too many dead commanders, and he's super smart, still, I agree, except he's valuable, he was indulged and allowed a lot of perks long before June came into his life.  

I think you mean Nick, not Luke (I do it too.)  Nick's got powerful connections, including Lawrence and others, also as an Eye for so long, he has shit on others.  This one is the easiest for me.  He's on his way to Chicago they said, so I kind of assume June and the others were moving in that direction as well.

[EllaWycliffe]

Yeah Nick not Luke, sorry.

I've read The Testaments so I know where *that* goes - but in part because of how Lydia's back story was significantly different in the book versus the show, I don't think the book is intended as a direct show sequel. As far as show Lydia goes, she's hardly been winning at her assignments.

I totally get that June is the lead and won't be sullied. That's why I handwave at it. It just seems unlikely that she'd ever see the light of day again. If they needed her so badly for breeding, we already know that "chained in a barred room" is a Gilead option. 

Out of the group, it's Lawrence I have the least issue with, and it just feels implausible in a society where they're handchopping high ranking Commanders for unregulated sex with a handmaid they're supposed to screw on schedule.

Luke's power as an Eye is at odds with his use as a driver but he's been a fairly inconsistent character for a while. If he's such a war hero/massive killer that the Swiss cringe at working with history's greatest monster - it seems odd that the Waterfords treat him like a serving boy. 

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Luke's power as an Eye is at odds with his use as a driver but he's been a fairly inconsistent character for a while. If he's such a war hero/massive killer that the Swiss cringe at working with history's greatest monster - it seems odd that the Waterfords treat him like a serving boy. 

An Eye is a spy, so being employed as a driver was just his cover.  Most Eyes have cover jobs.

14 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I totally get that June is the lead and won't be sullied. That's why I handwave at it. It just seems unlikely that she'd ever see the light of day again. If they needed her so badly for breeding, we already know that "chained in a barred room" is a Gilead option. 

The only one visibly scared is Janine though, and they eventually made that simple as an eye patch.  Oh, and Serena with her missing finger as well.

My biggest gripe is still how dark all the indoor scenes are.  It drives me nuts, even knowing that they are short of electricity.  

"Mrs. Keyes is safe and still in custody."  I hope we see her again, out and fighting.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Umbelina
added stuff

[DiabLOL]

Wait so Serena is pregnant? Who is the father?

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

Wait so Serena is pregnant? Who is the father?

Good question! Isn't Fred shooting blanks?

[DiabLOL]

Just now, AntFTW said:

Good question! Isn't Fred shooting blanks?

Right?! And I really don’t recall her sleeping with someone else.

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

Wait so Serena is pregnant? Who is the father?

Fred, they had sex on their little trip.

Apparently one of Fred's few sperm managed to swim to an egg and get through.

[DiabLOL]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Fred, they had sex on their little trip.

Apparently one of Fred's few sperm managed to swim to an egg and get through.

Ugh! I hate them both but not having it be his would have been a small ray of light.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

Ugh! I hate them both but not having it be his would have been a small ray of light.

Would mean they both might be killed for sinning if they return to Gilead though.

[DiabLOL]

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Would mean they both might be killed for sinning if they return to Gilead though.

Even better!

[EllaWycliffe]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Would mean they both might be killed for sinning if they return to Gilead though.

How is it sinning if a married couple had sex and got pregnant?

[cuppasun]

16 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I wonder if they were bluffing about hurting Hannah.  Did you have a sense of what that glass box was going to be used for (*gulp* gas)?

I was afraid it was going to be something like electric shocks through the floor <<<shudder>>>

I also think they knew full well it didn’t matter— the threat was sufficient. June has demonstrated clearly that she prioritizes Hannah from the beginning, and her captors knew that. If I’m being brutally honest, I get it. I’d probably sell out most of humanity for my kids’ safety (and mine are in their 30s & 40s now!), even if I threw myself off a cliff out of guilt afterwards.

[The Mighty Peanut]

29 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

Wait so Serena is pregnant? Who is the father?

Fred. After they lost Nichole and Fred was demoted and humbled, they briefly rekindled what they had before Gilead and slept together. He did the classic abusive narcissist thing and showered her with love. 

I wish the writers hadn't gone for torture porn points and made Serena into a rapist and Gilead apologist. I imagine now that SHE is with child she'll have an epiphany about the morality of taking a baby from the biological mother without her consent, and I saw what they were doing with the cold humiliation of the examination and stark language about physical abuse. At the same time she will always be the person who held a screaming, crying, vulnerable and heavily pregnant June down and laughed and eyefucked Fred as he (they) raped her like it was some kind of couples' therapy, all because the baby she helped rape into existence wasn't being born fast enough. 

Fuck that asshole Serena. I'll watch her because I like YS but I don't see her as a redeemable figure.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

How is it sinning if a married couple had sex and got pregnant?

Because she was deemed barren, and it's a sin to have sex for recreation.  They both broke the law.

2 minutes ago, cuppasun said:

I was afraid it was going to be something like electric shocks through the floor <<<shudder>>>

I also think they knew full well it didn’t matter— the threat was sufficient. June has demonstrated clearly that she prioritizes Hannah from the beginning, and her captors knew that. If I’m being brutally honest, I get it. I’d probably sell out most of humanity for my kids’ safety (and mine are in their 30s & 40s now!), even if I threw myself off a cliff out of guilt afterwards.

My go to was dumping snakes in there.  None poisonous, but June wouldn't know that.

[greekmom]

7 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

How is it sinning if a married couple had sex and got pregnant?

The wives are suppose to be barren and sex is only for procreation hence the use of Handmaid's.

If SJ goes back to Gilead there maybe trouble for her. 

[EllaWycliffe]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Because she was deemed barren, and it's a sin to have sex for recreation.  They both broke the law.

I mean has it specifically been stated that wives who need handmaids aren't allowed to have sex with their husbands? I just don't recall that and it seems unenforceable.

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Fuck that asshole Serena. I'll watch her because I like YS but I don't see her as a redeemable figure.

I don't want them redeeming her either.  I want her to face the shit that she did, the stuff that she DESIGNED.

That said, she did become a victim as well.  That's pretty tricky, but it did happen.  She helped design and sell her version of a better life, but then was trapped by her own design.

Basically, her life was better, and she did make other women's lives pure hell, but stripping all that away, her life turned into hell as well.

She could be a powerful voice to expose and take down Gilead, and I would like to see that happen, for her own selfish reasons though, rather than redemption.  Needing a snake in your corner during a revolution is not uncommon.

3 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I mean has it specifically been stated that wives who need handmaids aren't allowed to have sex with their husbands? I just don't recall that and it seems unenforceable.

Yes.

Sex is ONLY for procreation. 

For the powerful men though, the hypocrites have Jezebels in every city.

ETA in other seasons we saw Serena attempt to seduce him, and learned all of this was a sin, and beyond taboo.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Umbelina

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Because she was deemed barren, and it's a sin to have sex for recreation.  They both broke the law.

My go to was dumping snakes in there.  None poisonous, but June wouldn't know that.

 

4 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The wives are suppose to be barren and sex is only for procreation hence the use of Handmaid's.

If SJ goes back to Gilead there maybe trouble for her. 

Wow! I had no idea.

I'm relatively new to the show. I didn't know there were any Handmaid's Tale related content before a few months ago. My knowledge of The Handmaid's Tale universe comes solely from this show.

All women that are able to reproduce are automatically handmaids? They can't be wives?

[EllaWycliffe]

When? Not doubting you, I just don't recall that at all and like I said, seems unenforceable. Also can't help but think a miracle baby in a world where infertility is causing major upheaval wouldn't be welcomed.

Barring a hysterectomy, with the level of or lack of medical care, take your pick, it seems difficult to absolutely establish a woman's barrenness. An easy argument is "we prayed for a miracle" or "I am my wife's commander and I decided we would keep trying since we can't be certain she's barren unless we claim god like knowledge."

Edited April 29, 2021 by EllaWycliffe

[greekmom]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

 

Wow! I had no idea.

I'm relatively new to the show. I didn't know there were any Handmaid's Tale related content before a few months ago. My knowledge of The Handmaid's Tale universe comes solely from this show.

All women that are able to reproduce are automatically handmaids? They can't be wives?

No. The Econowives reproduce but if you watch season 1 or was it 2 when June was able to leave she was hiding out in an Econo family's home the wife said they dare not have another kid because the wife will be deemed Handmaid material and Gilead will pin something on them, kill the husband, take away the kid and place her in as a Handmaid. 

I suggest you pick up the book and then watch seasons 1-3.  The book still stands the test of time. 

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Barring a hysterectomy, with the level of or lack of medical care, take your pick, it seems difficult to absolutely establish a woman's barrenness. An easy argument is "we prayed for a miracle" or "I am my wife's commander and I decided we would keep trying since we can't be certain she's barren unless we claim god like knowledge."

Gilead is not known for making any sense.

Fred was given handmaids, he is not allowed to fuck his wife.  

15 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

When? Not doubting you, I just don't recall that at all and like I said, seems unenforceable. Also can't help but think a miracle baby in a world where infertility is causing major upheaval wouldn't be welcomed.

No birth control available, so pretty risky.  It was spelled out in earlier seasons but I couldn't tell you the episodes.  

I bet someone has up a "Rules of Gilead" page, possibly even with links to episodes, if you want to google.

I vaguely remember a couple getting in a bunch of trouble for it, but that could be wrong.

15 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

 

Wow! I had no idea.

I'm relatively new to the show. I didn't know there were any Handmaid's Tale related content before a few months ago. My knowledge of The Handmaid's Tale universe comes solely from this show.

All women that are able to reproduce are automatically handmaids? They can't be wives?

One of the greatest books of all time, Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" followed many years later by a new book last year, "The Testaments."  

Wives that can have children are just wives.  Econowives don't get handmaids.  Rich Commander wives do, IF they don't have children of their own, or are past menopause, etc.

Sinners that are fertile become handmaids.  Sin could be remarrying after a divorce, or having an abortion, or looking at someone the wrong way, whatever Gilead says is a sin.  Being gay is also a sin, fertile gay women are handmaids, all other gay people are killed.  

Edited April 29, 2021 by Umbelina

[cuppasun]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It grossed me out to see Nick and Commander Lawrence conspiring to get June to rat out the location of the other girls. And of course it worked because Hanna is her weak spot. I had to shake my head when Nick admitted his part in using her daughter as a pawn to get her to betray her friends and her response was to run back so she could kiss him and tell him that she loved him. And weren't there guardians watching? That didn't seem very discreet.

——————

The body count from this episode alone was pretty high - the two girls on the roof plus all the handmaids who were on the run except for June and Janine. And the six commanders who got poisoned by June at the brothel and died.

Yeah, Nick is really troubling at this point. I guess I hold some faint hope that June’s affection outburst at the end is actually a calculated ploy and not sincere. We’ll see. To be fair, the experiences of real-life folks who have survived extreme & violent regimes make clear that while you’re in it, you can be really fucked up, in ways that might not occur in normal conditions. Sometimes, folks grasp for whatever there is to hang onto, even if it’s, well, ...fucked up.

Oh, and one more for the body count: David the sympathetic Guardian who was shot at the farm when June was captured.

[Umbelina]

At 4 minutes in she mentions that she's not allowed to have sex.

I wish I could remember the episodes that addressed that, there were a couple I think.

16 minutes ago, cuppasun said:

Yeah, Nick is really troubling at this point. I guess I hold some faint hope that June’s affection outburst at the end is actually a calculated ploy and not sincere. We’ll see. To be fair, the experiences of real-life folks who have survived extreme & violent regimes make clear that while you’re in it, you can be really fucked up, in ways that might not occur in normal conditions. Sometimes, folks grasp for whatever there is to hang onto, even if it’s, well, ...fucked up.

Oh, and one more for the body count: David the sympathetic Guardian who was shot at the farm when June was captured.

In the Extras on Hulu there is a great Q&A with "Luke" about Nick, it's in the "one minute" section of the extras.