S02.E09: Rule #1

[Trini]

Batwoman confronts Gotham's biggest foe, while new information forces those closest to Kate to make some difficult decisions. Ryan's feelings for Angelique (guest star Bevin Bru) puts her partnership with Luke and Mary at risk, while Alice goes on a warped walk down memory lane.

Michael Blundell directed the episode written by Nancy Kiu and Maya Houston.

Airdate: 3/28/2021

[scarynikki12]

Black Mask! I guess he wasn’t around when Bruce was? No big he’s a sick fuck no matter who he’s opposite. And of course he’s played by Ari from Nikita. 

Sophie’s sister is the witness to the Commissioner’s execution, is a graffiti artist, and a community organizer. Jordan I like you already.

As frustrating as Angelique is I think they’re doing a good job with her being Ryan’s weakness. Good call from Mary reminding Ryan that Kate had a similar one with Alice.

I’m weirdly amused that Julia and Jacob were debriefing in the cemetery. I love Gotham.

I like that they kept Alice’s psychotic break scenes to a minimum. Just the right amount to show what’s going on and set up the next part of her story.

We get to meet Enigma after all so my desire for her to share a scene with Ed Nygma continues. 

[Primal Slayer]

Just starting the episode but damn! These writers dont understand Gotham do they? It's just another city to them. The city should be unique, an interesting place to visit, but it feels so boring and basic.

[cambridgeguy]

I see that the Crows haven't gotten around to improving the security in their parking garage.  They might want to work on that.

I don't think I had realized how short the cast is - Sophie towered over Julia, Luke, and Mary at the funeral.

And way to keep the only existing miracle cure plant in the Batcave!  No desire to do anything else with it other than leaving it as a memorial to Kate?

[Primal Slayer]

It was an ok episode but I can't tell if its COVID or the writers just not knowing how to bring Gotham to life. Likely both.

I love that Sophies sister finally shows up even though we never heard of her and she sure seemed like an only child last season...but she notices Angeliques tiny bracelet that I cant even make out on my 50" tv lol. 

Jacob Kane has a supervillian for a daughter, Batwoman as a daughter, and a step daughter who runs an underground medical center (and works for Batwoman) yet he is so boring.

Sophie has had this "im trying to get the Crows together from the inside" storyline since the beginning of the season, did they forget abou it? Only to have her sister remind her about it.

I wish the recast was just a straight up recast. This show does way to much face swapping as if it's like a simple surgery.

[possibilities]

8 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I love that Sophies sister finally shows up even though we never heard of her and she sure seemed like an only child last season...but she notices Angeliques tiny bracelet that I cant even make out on my 50" tv lol. 

Jacob Kane has a supervillian for a daughter, Batwoman as a daughter, and a step daughter who runs an underground medical center (and works for Batwoman) yet he is so boring.

Clearly Sophie's sister has superhero vision.

Maybe Jacob's daughters rebelled by becoming interesting.

 

 

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

It was an ok episode but I can't tell if its COVID or the writers just not knowing how to bring Gotham to life. Likely both.

I love that Sophies sister finally shows up even though we never heard of her and she sure seemed like an only child last season...but she notices Angeliques tiny bracelet that I cant even make out on my 50" tv lol. 

Jacob Kane has a supervillian for a daughter, Batwoman as a daughter, and a step daughter who runs an underground medical center (and works for Batwoman) yet he is so boring.

Sophie has had this "im trying to get the Crows together from the inside" storyline since the beginning of the season, did they forget abou it? Only to have her sister remind her about it.

I wish the recast was just a straight up recast. This show does way to much face swapping as if it's like a simple surgery.

Yeah, I was wondering how Jordan saw Angelique's bracelet. Either from where she was tagging or hiding in the alley, there's no way she would have THAT good of look.

As for Sophie's storyline, I don't think they forgot about it. Last episode, they had Sophie talk to Jacob about how the Crows aren't much different from Safiyah's gang. I think they're just doing small things here and there.

[UnoAgain]

Well no more angelique... And black mask is nice and deranged... Wonder who his kid is.. That he's blaming kate for her death... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

A better written show would have

1. Established the Commissioner as a character sometime before now so that we might care about him and his death other than as a plot device, and probably even within the scope of the episode avoided writing him as such a complete tool so that it seems like we're actually pretty OK with his death.

1a. Better spelled out what the difference is between the Crows and GCPD

2. Not had the commissioner talk about how Snake Bite is a "sexy" drug. 

3. Done something to explain or address the transition from last week's episode where Batwoman was on the verge of death with mere hours to live while in the Mediterranean and made it back to Gotham (or somewhere) to get dosed with the Desert Rose while apparently Jake and Sophie were cool with it.

4. Would have had the existence of Sophie's sister hinted at some point before as well, and probably done more to establish a sisterly dynamic than the episode did.

5. Have sold the "Angelique has dumper's remorse/actually wants to get out of the criminal lifestyle" and " better rather than by fiat, as well as the "Ryan is actually considering wanting to bring this woman who she served time for, who recently dumped her for no reason and who was an accomplice to a  murder back as her love."

6. Probably have Sophie have done all the investigating that Julia is doing about Kate, to bolster Sophie's story lines. 

7. Explained why Luke went with Sophie to rescue Batwoman when her coms went down rather than Julia if we're just going with a solo effort. I guess it's implied that he might have thought that Sophie could call in the Crow cavalry if needed. Which brings us to...

8. Made it more apparent why Sophie went to the Black Mask abandoned warehouse without backup that she presumably has at her disposal, why she didn't shoot Black Mask or anyone there, why she didn't chase Black Mask or put out an APB for Black Mask as far as we saw.

9. Explained why Sophie Sis didn't just frigging call Sophie and say "Hey, I need to speak to you." rather than going to her work and lying in wait in her car. 

10. Had Sophie do something when multiple masked men snuck into the parking garage and started threatening her and her sister more than just kind of pull her gun out and not do anything. I know it would be weird politically, but if you're not justified shooting when people are pounding on your car and trying to get at you and your witness-to-a-murder sibling, when are you?

11. Had the cat in Alice's psychotic break box be a Cheshire Cat.

12. Had Sophie do more than metaphorically shrug her shoulders and say "Oh well, what can we do now that we have this obviously faked confession from Angelique?"

13. Had the streetwise Angelique made the connection that Ryan is BW at this point.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Well no more angelique... And black mask is nice and deranged... Wonder who his kid is.. That he's blaming kate for her death... 

I don't think that we have gotten rid of Angelique permanently. If I had to guess, she is going to come back in play in one of several ways:

1. Our Heroes need a lead on False Face activity and they go to her to see if she can help out.

2. The False Face Society isn't satisfied that she won't crack and so they put a hit on her in prison

3. Ryan visits Angelique in prison, either to try to pursue a future with her despite all odds or to rule out that they could be together. 

Did Kate ever kill anyone that we know of? Or is Black Mask just wrongly blaming her?

Edited March 29, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Lantern7]

Is it bad that I don't consider Ryan to be the leader of Team Batwoman? It's not an issue of tenure or Kate's shadow. I just keep thinking of Mary and Luke as BatMom and BatDad. At least Ryan is thinking on how to make an impact as Batwoman beyond beating people up.

We're out one toxic yet complicated ex in Angelique. I'm sure she and Ryan were good together at one point, but they're better apart now. Also, we gotta wedge Sophie closer and closer to Ryan. I mean . . . I get it, but I also get the eyerolls of fans.

Alice still holds her own even with the massive breakdown. I'm really glad we didn't see her cradling a cat skeleton at the end. Given that she didn't have to dig far, I'm thinking the box was also in her mine. I thought "Schrodinger's Cat" at the time. It should be interesting to see if Alice can heal as she accepts Kate's death . . . and if she does, if the scars would be ripped open when Kate comes back.

No one else saw Birds of Prey? Black Mask is bad news. Also: nice touch to see Batwoman freaked the fucked out at the one False Face dolt getting sliced in half.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

A better written show would have

 

8. Made it more apparent why Sophie went to the Black Mask abandoned warehouse without backup that she presumably has at her disposal, why she didn't shoot Black Mask or anyone there, why she didn't chase Black Mask or put out an APB for Black Mask as far as we saw.

 

 

12. Had Sophie do more than metaphorically shrug her shoulders and say "Oh well, what can we do now that we have this obviously faked confession from Angelique?"

 

8. Sophie did shoot someone when she came to the rescue. She shot at Black Mask, but he ran away. She didn't chase Black Mask because Ryan was more important. Plus, she didn't have back up to chase after him and one other person? About the back up. I can understand why she didn't bring any. She got a tip that Batwoman was in trouble. Iif other Crows had shown up, they would've helped rescued Batwoman. However, they probably would've tried to arrest her as well. Remember the Crows and Batwoman are not allies.

12. I don't know much about the law, but she couldn't really do anything right? Even though Angelique didn't do it, she still confessed. I believe a false confession can still land you in prison.

Edited March 29, 2021 by BeautifulFlower

[BeautifulFlower]

Speaking on Angelique giving a confession, I'm so confused over the GCPD and Crows. The Crows are a security company working for rich people right? The keyword being security. Why does this show have them taking confessions or interrogating as if they're the cops? Isn't that the GCPD job?

[Chicago Redshirt]

40 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

8. Sophie did shoot someone when she came to the rescue. She shot at Black Mask, but he ran away. She didn't chase Black Mask because Ryan was more important. Plus, she didn't have back up to chase after him and one other person? About the back up. I can understand why she didn't bring any. She got a tip that Batwoman was in trouble. Iif other Crows had shown up, they would've helped rescued Batwoman. However, they probably would've tried to arrest her as well. Remember the Crows and Batwoman are not allies.

12. I don't know much about the law, but she couldn't really do anything right? Even though she didn't do it, she still confessed. I believe a fals confession can still land you in prison.

Did Sophie's gun only have one bullet in it? Because if not, maybe she could try to fire more than that one shot. I probably should have said why she didn't hit Black Mask, because she had him dead to rights when he was being a weirdo and didn't know she was there. Sophie and Kate were supposed to be top markswomen back in their military academy days. So it would have been nice to have it be more realistically written that why Sophie didn't shoot BM (other than "because if she did, then we wouldn't have a Big Bad for the second half of the season."

Once no one was by the saw mechanism, Ryan was fine. Even stopping to free Ryan didn't mean that she couldn't get on her Crow radio and say "Crows, we just had the head of the False Face Society flee a warehouse at Robinson and Finger. Set up a perimeter." Even if it didn't work, it would show her being proactive  

Sophie is portrayed as second in command of the Crows. Surely there are at least a couple who she could trust to follow her orders? And even if you accept that any backup she would bring is likely to turn on Batwoman and try to arrest her, isn't it better to risk that than getting captured or killed yourself? It is again just writer fiat that the False Face Society people didn't have lookouts ready to cap any intruders.

An actual investigator -- especially one who knows that the confession is false because a) her own sister told her that there were three people in the car and described the getaway driver as having the bracelet that Angelique had b) she found Angelique tied up by other members of the False Face Society c) and who either was straight-up told by Angelique that she was giving the confession to protect Ryan or was smart enough to deduce that -- would take other steps to corroborate or to show as false the confession. Presumably the Crows recorded the "confession" and Sophie could simply tell people that it is BS. If for whatever reason prosecutors were like, long hair don't care go tthis case closed, an actual investigator would pursue a number of leads that her arrest would open up. Such as tracing her whereabouts over the past few weeks, what contacts she made by phone and e-mail, and so forth. Trying to work on Angelique and pointing out how BS her confession was would have again potentially been an interesting faceoff for Sophie. Think of the drama of Sophie confronting Angelique about how she's trying to sell some BS because she doesn't know details like what gun was used, where he was shot, etc., about how Sophie is not buying it and will have Angelique charged with murder as the getaway driver and Ryan's still in danger, trying to sell Angelique on witness protection, or on giving up leads with the cameras turned off....any number of meaty things could have happened. All with the subtext of a crook who loves Ryan and Sophie starting to fall for her 

But it would have been too hard for this crew to write, or maybe for the actors to act, so they did the weird bit with Sophie telling Ryan about it. after the fact rather than more fully showing it.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Chicago Redshirt]

20 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Speaking on Angelique giving a confession, I'm so confused over the GCPD and Crows. The Crows are a security company working for rich people right? The keyword being security. Why does this show have them taking confessions or interrogating as if they're the cops? Isn't that the GCPD job?

The show wants to have it both ways with the Crows. They are apparently a supplementary force with virtually unlimited jurisdiction. That's why earlier this season, they had Ryan under arrest for a convenience store robbery, Beyond just working for rich clients, it seems like they have some sort of broader ongoing contract with Gotham City to do...things, but the show hasn't really ever explained what are GCPD cases versus Crow cases. 

[Josh371982]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think that we have gotten rid of Angelique permanently. If I had to guess, she is going to come back in play in one of several ways:

1. Our Heroes need a lead on False Face activity and they go to her to see if she can help out.

2. The False Face Society isn't satisfied that she won't crack and so they put a hit on her in prison

3. Ryan visits Angelique in prison, either to try to pursue a future with her despite all odds or to rule out that they could be together. 

Did Kate ever kill anyone that we know of? Or is Black Mask just wrongly blaming her?

Kate only killed the Piece of shit that had kidnapped Beth/Alice 

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Did Sophie's gun only have one bullet in it? Because if not, maybe she could try to fire more than that one shot. I probably should have said why she didn't hit Black Mask, because she had him dead to rights when he was being a weirdo and didn't know she was there. Sophie and Kate were supposed to be top markswomen back in their military academy days. So it would have been nice to have it be more realistically written that why Sophie didn't shoot BM (other than "because if she did, then we wouldn't have a Big Bad for the second half of the season."

She did have more than one bullet, she shot two of Black Mask's minions - by then he was able to draw his own gun and fire back as he retreated.  Everyone knows you take out the mooks first, then confront the leader for an epic boss fight.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, cambridgeguy said:

She did have more than one bullet, she shot two of Black Mask's minions - by then he was able to draw his own gun and fire back as he retreated.  Everyone knows you take out the mooks first, then confront the leader for an epic boss fight.

Ah, then I stand corrected. Sorry for not paying close enough attention to the gunfight. 

On a new topic, I should add that better writing probably would have given a better motive to the False Face Society to kill the police commissioner in the first place. 

I can't help think about the Joker's speech in The Dark Knight about plans and how nobody blinks an eye when a gangbanger gets shot but when he kills a mayor, everyone loses their mind.

Well, shooting a police commissioner on the steps of police HQ would be a Big Deal. The Crows and the GCPD would spare nothing to try to track down the people responsible. To do it just because the commissioner threatened to go after Snakebite, that doesn't make much sense. 

The False False Society should be aware of this and should not want to ramp up the heat to that level for no reason, unless we're just to think that they are just crazy. Which maybe is the point, but then maybe better establish that they just give no fucks.

[Trini]

More thoughts later;

Wow, so Sophie has an entire sister that we've never heard about for 1 1/2 seasons. She seems great, but that came out of nowhere.

I don't know what the show is planning for Kate, but I already don't like it.

I guess they just needed something for Skarsten to do, because I don't think Alice's subplot actually went anywhere.

[tennisgurl]

So Enigma is totally Edward Nygma's cousin or sister or something right? They even have the same color scheme. I don't know where this story with Kate is going, but its probably not going to be a good time for her. Are we just going to be doing The Winter Soldier now for a minute before Kate gets her memory back and presumably leaves the show for real? 

Speaking of doing plot points from other things, the whole "lets build a community center!" thing is basically the same plot as Breakin Two: Electric Boogaloo, which really amuses me. If Gotham needs anything to deal with its problems, its a mental hospital that is more conducive to healing than Arkham, better known as the Jokers summer home. I have always been rather disappointed in this shows version of Gotham, its seems so generic. It has some Gotham-y elements, like the gangs wearing masks and the rogues gallery showing up, but it mostly feels like any other major city without all of the wilder gothic elements that makes it such an important part of the Batman mythos. Its not even like in the Nolan Batman movies where they were really going for realism, this is the Arrowverse, we are long since past going for realism. 

So the GCPD returns again just in time for the Commissioner to get killed very anticlimactically. I sort of forgot that they even existed, why even bother defunding them when they hardly seem to be do anything at all anymore? I still find the relationship between them and The Crows confusing, shouldn't GCPD be interrogating Angelique? The Crows are a big private security firm, why are they always working cases that they apparently aren't being paid for? They do at least seem to be heading towards doing something with The Crows and their obvious corruption, so that's something at least.  

I guess they did a time jump so that everyone could mourn Kate without it eating up too much of the show, even though we know that Kate is alive anyway. Glad that Ryan is taking more initiative in her new version of the Bat team, and everything between her and Mary was quite good. I especially liked her calling Ryan out on making excuses for Angelique and that Kate making excuses for Alice just led to more death and misery. Angelique is certainly not anywhere in Alice's league, but covering up for someone you care about despite what bad things they do is still not a great idea for a Batperson. Angelique might not be the best person, but it turns out that at least she does care about Ryan enough to take a murder charge to protect her. I am sure this isn't the last time we see her, but I am cool with Ryan moving on. Angelique and Ryan might love each other, but they're relationship has clearly become toxic. Not sure I love the idea of Ryan hooking up with Sophie though, it seems weird for Sophie to just jump from one Batwoman to the next. It is still pretty sad that Angelique cant tell that Ryan is Batwoman, I mean come on she's supposed to be all streetwise and such. She has been two feet from Batwoman like three times now and she cant tell that its her ex girlfriend she's known since childhood? 

Black Mask as a new big bad is promising, I am ready for a break from Alice and Assassin Island. That henchman getting sawed in half was nasty, this show can get pretty gruesome. I wonder who his daughter was? 

Sophie now has a never before mentioned sister suddenly, which is random but she seems cool so I am happy to have her around. It also could give Sophie a bit more to do. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I don't know what the show is planning for Kate, but I already don't like it.

 

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 I don't know where this story with Kate is going, but its probably not going to be a good time for her. Are we just going to be doing The Winter Soldier now for a minute before Kate gets her memory back and presumably leaves the show for real? 

I think, sadly, this is exactly where they are going with Kate. For some reason BM blames Kate for his daughter's death, perhaps knowing she's BW. He engineers the mid-air kidnapping/attack on Kate for...reasons. And somehow either plants evidence of real!Kate at the crash to be discovered later or it's just there. Meanwhile, he has kept real!Kate under his control for what has to be at least three months by the end of this episode, also for reasons. And now he's brought in noted hypnotist Enigma. There really can only be one way this goes -- to mindwipe her and use her as the latest in the FFS army (interesting that the acronym for False Face Society is the same as "for fuck's sake"). Where at some point there will be the inevitable BW 1.0 vs. BW 2.0 fight, in which BW 2.0 will prevail, validating her right to the BW mantle. I hope I am wrong about some or all of this (other than the outcome where BW 1.0 wins and they retool the series again featuring real!Kate, because that would be IMO a sucker punch.)

[cambridgeguy]

44 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It is still pretty sad that Angelique cant tell that Ryan is Batwoman, I mean come on she's supposed to be all streetwise and such. She has been two feet from Batwoman like three times now and she cant tell that its her ex girlfriend she's known since childhood? 

As sad as Sophie not realizing that the new black bartender at Kate's bar, who just happens to be Mary's roommate, is Batwoman.  Although maybe she doesn't know about the roomie situation.

[BeautifulFlower]

Okay, you guys have to realize that we're watching a show based on a DC comics property. The same comics that have people close to Clark and Kara not realize they're Superman and Supergirl when all they do is take off their glasses. We're just gonna have to deal with characters in these shows not realizing the superheroes true identities.

[paulvdb]

Who was that guy giving the speech after the commissioner was murdered? He seemed to be applying for the job so I'm convinced that he was involved in the commissioner's murder.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Okay, you guys have to realize that we're watching a show based on a DC comics property. The same comics that have people close to Clark and Kara not realize they're Superman and Supergirl when all they do is take off their glasses. We're just gonna have to deal with characters in these shows not realizing the superheroes true identities.

There's some suspension of disbelief required for comic book, but even with people not recognizing Clark and Kara, there's more room to understand that.

Other than the trope, there is no reason to believe that Superman and Supergirl bother with civilian identities. They could just live in the Fortress of Solitude and use alien tech to feed themselves, if they even eat. So it is more reasonable to think "Huh, it's funny that Clark kinda looks like Superman if he were slouching."

I don't think it is as reasonable when you are talking about regular people who have to find ways to support themselves. And in particular when you are talking about people you have slept with and supposedly have love-of-your-life feelings for, and when the person doesn't do much to disguise themselves beyond wearing a mask that doesn't obscure their eyes. They still probably smell, talk, and sound similar to how they do as civilians. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that any serious ex of mine who showed up in a Batwoman costume I'd probably be like, "Nancy?" Especially if Nancy kept saying stuff like, "I'm a friend of Batwoman and she wanted you to do X?" I don't think that's genre savviness. I think that's just reality/

6 minutes ago, paulvdb said:

Who was that guy giving the speech after the commissioner was murdered? He seemed to be applying for the job so I'm convinced that he was involved in the commissioner's murder.

Roman Sionis is a business person. I think it safe to say that he is Black Mask because he didn't disguise his voice in his undercover guise.

The character of Roman Sionis as Black Mask is also from the comics and was featured in the movie Birds of Prey, so for a lot of the audience it's an open fact that he is the villain here.

I suppose there could be something to him ordering the hit on the commish so that he could run. 

[thuganomics85]

I would have thought there would be more people at Kate's "funeral" since I imagine she still had friends, family, and connections during her day job, but since I'm guessing they wanted to tone down background characters/extras due to COVID, I'm just going to go with Jacob only wanting a closed funeral for those closest to her, which would work with Luke, Mary, Sophie, Julia, and himself being the only ones there.

So, first we got Victor Zsasz a few episodes ago, and now we have this show's version of Roman Sionis a.k.a. Black Mask!  I guess someone was a fan of Birds of Prey last year.  Peter Outerbridge seems like a spot-on choice for the role and I can't wait to see more of him (especially since I honestly wasn't a fan of Ewan McGregor's more campy take from the film.)  Of course, I imagine there will be a lot more to the whole "Batwoman killed by daughter!" thing.

I guess it is nice that Angelique came around to the side of good at the end, but of course it wasn't going to end well for her and Ryan, and she's now going down for the commissioner's death, in order to protect Ryan from Black Mask.  I can't see that being a light sentence to put it mildly.  And I hope she will get some kind of protection, because if there was any form of realism here, she would be a target by the GCPD themselves since cops usually go all out when "one of their own" gets killed.  I can easily see them paying off other inmates or prison guards to take her out for his death.  I guess being taken by the Crowes instead of GCPD helps, but it's not like the Crowes have a good record with protecting sources (or themselves for that matter.)

Sophie having a sister this entire time seems to have come out of nowhere, but Jordan is cool at least.  Hope she pops up again.

Like seeing the "Bat team" starting to take hold officially.

Alice is just off having a psychological meltdown, which might end with her... forgetting Kate ever existed?

Confused by the Julia reveal: is someone pretending to be her or is she forgetting things?  Possible mind control?

Roman/Black Mask has Kate after-all, and it looks like he is teaming up with this Enigma character to possibly wipe her memories and probably make her join his side.  Oh, and her face was apparently badly damaged, so I'm sure they'll fix her up with a nice, fresh Wallis Day face soon!

[Trini]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Okay, you guys have to realize that we're watching a show based on a DC comics property. The same comics that have people close to Clark and Kara not realize they're Superman and Supergirl when all they do is take off their glasses. We're just gonna have to deal with characters in these shows not realizing the superheroes true identities.

Exactly. No, it isn't realistic, but it just something you've got to roll with for these shows to work.

[possibilities]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Alice is just off having a psychological meltdown, which might end with her... forgetting Kate ever existed?

 

If Alice forgets Kate existed, what will she do with her days? She's been obsessing so long, she has no other interests and she's burned bridges with all her former friends, like Ocean and Mouse.

[immortalfrieza]

20 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Speaking on Angelique giving a confession, I'm so confused over the GCPD and Crows. The Crows are a security company working for rich people right? The keyword being security. Why does this show have them taking confessions or interrogating as if they're the cops? Isn't that the GCPD job?

20 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The show wants to have it both ways with the Crows. They are apparently a supplementary force with virtually unlimited jurisdiction. That's why earlier this season, they had Ryan under arrest for a convenience store robbery, Beyond just working for rich clients, it seems like they have some sort of broader ongoing contract with Gotham City to do...things, but the show hasn't really ever explained what are GCPD cases versus Crow cases. 

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So the GCPD returns again just in time for the Commissioner to get killed very anticlimactically. I sort of forgot that they even existed, why even bother defunding them when they hardly seem to be do anything at all anymore? I still find the relationship between them and The Crows confusing, shouldn't GCPD be interrogating Angelique? The Crows are a big private security firm, why are they always working cases that they apparently aren't being paid for? They do at least seem to be heading towards doing something with The Crows and their obvious corruption, so that's something at least. 

The show has always treated the Crows as functionally the GCPD, with the actual GCPD barely making cameos at best. In fact, having the commissioner appear and then get gunned down in the space of about a minute of total screentime is the most significant thing that the GCPD has actually done the entire run of the show up to this point.

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So Enigma is totally Edward Nygma's cousin or sister or something right? They even have the same color scheme. I don't know where this story with Kate is going, but its probably not going to be a good time for her. Are we just going to be doing The Winter Soldier now for a minute before Kate gets her memory back and presumably leaves the show for real? 

Honestly I was between last ep and this one trying to think of a way that they could bring Kate back and recast her and the idea of Kate having plastic surgery, brainwashing, and maybe some cybernetic enhancements (she was supposed to have lost entire limbs wasn't she?) to turn her into a supervillain for Ryan to have to deal with popped into my head. Then she could go around killing people for a season or so before snapping out of it and angsting about what she's become on and off for the rest of the show. With Enigma it seems like they might be going something like that direction.

Quote

Speaking of doing plot points from other things, the whole "lets build a community center!" thing is basically the same plot as Breakin Two: Electric Boogaloo, which really amuses me. If Gotham needs anything to deal with its problems, its a mental hospital that is more conducive to healing than Arkham, better known as the Jokers summer home.

Yes! I spent this whole time thinking... "...Really? This is what these women think Gotham needs? A FREAKING COMMUNITY CENTER!?!"
But of course that's what Ryan and Sophie's little sis from nowhere are going to think is important, because if they actually tackled the issues that were plaguing Gotham City (like a complete lack of competent mental health facilities) at the source there quickly wouldn't be any show.

In fact, considering how many shows/movies seem to think a community center is such a big deal that they're always fighting to get one or save one I'm surprised there isn't one across the street from every Mcdonalds in fictionland.

Edited March 30, 2021 by immortalfrieza

[quarks]

General things:

1. I know I already made this complaint over on the Nancy Drew forum, but it's worth repeating here: CW, you do not need to promote Batwoman to me when I am watching the show on your app. Tell me about Supergirl. Flash. Charmed. Nancy Drew. I don't care. Just don't promote Batwoman when I'm watching it.

2. When the synopsis for this episode was released, I joked that Gotham's biggest foe was the budget for sets and special effects. Sure enough, this episode laughs in my face by doing more location shooting than most of the other episodes this season and largely avoiding the sets. I stand by my comments about the special effects, though - those were seriously missing this episode even in cases where they could have been useful.

3. I've been pretty impressed with the previous camera/lens tricks Batwoman's been using to hide all the physical distancing used for the extras/day players and some of the guest stars. Until this episode, when that physical distancing was apparent in several scenes. Thing is? I probably wouldn't have noticed if the show hadn't been doing such a good job of hiding that until now. Shift in camera operators - lack of time to block shots properly? I'm curious. But also, honestly, glad to see some safety precautions.

Good things:

1. Loving the friends to sisters relationship between Ryan and Mary. The two actresses have really great chemistry together.

2. Also loved having someone suggest alternatives to cops, Crows and vigilantes.

3. "Oh please. Enlighten me. Who am I?"

"YOU'RE A SADISTIC DRUG LORD!"

[pause]

"Ok. I can see why you might think that."

I laughed.

4. Also liked having the bad guy point out that the problem was Gotham/the system, not him, even if this would have been just a tad more convincing if he hadn't just brutally murdered someone.

Questionable things:

1. On a level of 1 to 10 (10 highest), how bored do we think Dougray Scott is at this point? 12? Hmm. Possibly higher? 

2. So, uh, Sophie has a younger sister who just happens to oppose the Crows and this is the first we've heard of it? And, while I'm on the subject, Sophie's mother apparently told the sister that Sophie is a lesbian - and that her mother is having an issue with it - and yet, the sister didn't bother to call Sophie and say, hey, I just talked to mom? And yet, we're supposed to believe that the sister trusts Sophie enough to come to her for help even though Sophie is a member of an organization that the sister distrusts and...

3. While I'm questioning all this, I know dumping your current problems/past on the bartender is a cliche at this point, but that was still awfully fast to tell a bartender that much.

4. And yeah, how did Jordan manage to spot that bracelet? While I'm at it, why was Angelique wearing an unusual bracelet to a crime scene anyway? Like, surely, "take off objects that can help identify you" is covered in Criminality 101 lessons?

4. "It's an HR matter. What are you, OSHA?" Look, Evil Guy, I don't need to be from OSHA to recognize that dismembering your employees is a) very unsanitary and kinda gross and b) not necessarily the most efficient way to handle personnel issues, even if this does mean that you don't have to give the now-dead person any severance pay. With that said, may I just ask, where IS OSHA since seriously, MULTIPLE HEALTH AND SAFETY REGULATIONS BEING BROKEN THERE.

5. Uh. So. Alice got on a boat (how?) and got back to Gotham (again, how?). How did everyone else get back? Did Sophie just drag Ryan back to the plane? How did the plane get back to Gotham on time, given that it did not exactly look like a superfast jet? Did Jacob or Sophie try to take off Ryan's mask (well, ok, Sophie clearly didn't) and if not, why not? Was Jacob just too busy flying the plane? Because I find it extremely implausible that Jacob wouldn't try to see who took over his daughter's Bat legacy. Did the show time skip a month to keep me from asking these questions? 

 Bad things:

1. Usually I like Mary's clothing, but that purple top with lines and the leather pants was not the best choice. 

2. So I get that Angelique decided to go to the jail to save Ryan which was all very very nice, except for the kinda major issues that: a) the police - or in this case, the Crows - do not have to use a confession if they think it's false, which is why b) the court system is going to need more than just that confession, especially given that c) that confession was made without a single attorney present. I realize this is Gotham so the usual court procedures don't exactly apply, but given that this is Gotham, if I'm the DA, I want a lot more than this before issuing an indictment - which would be needed before Angelique could plead guilty.

This is another case - along with the stark lack of customers at the bar, mourners at the funeral, and people following the Commissioner - where I suspect Covid played a role; they are clearly writing their scenes to try to limit the number of people involved, which I applaud - and of course adding attorneys would add people. But it still meant that I didn't buy most of this at all and fully expect Angelique to return, probably even before Black Mask is defeated. 

And now, Sophie:

Credit where credit is due. Sophie had a genuine heroic moment this episode and SAVED BATWOMAN! 

More of this please, because, of course, in this episode she also:

1. Needed to be rescued by Batwoman.

2. Failed to check and see if anyone was in the back of her car, even though a high profile law person had just been assassinated and she needed to be on the alert.

3. Failed to get the Crows to set up some sort of perimeter outside the Black Mask lair to help catch him as she went in to rescue Batwoman.

4. Failed to get Angelique an attorney, like, you just promised Batwoman that you would try to protect Angelique, and the very first thing you do is fail to provide her with an attorney.

5. Failed to get further, important info from Angelique about Black Mask.

6. Completely failed to get her own sister to believe that the Crows are capable of carrying out justice - then proved Jordan right by allowing Angelique to head off to jail for a murder Angelique didn't commit. Like, letting people serve time for crimes they didn't commit is getting dangerously close to being Sophie's superpower. 

[possibilities]

Jacob's voice always sounds like he's about to turn into a very sleepy werewolf. What the hell is wrong with his voice? Actually, I thought he sounded like Black Mask, and for a second when I glanced away, I thought it was Jacob talking about how someone killed his daughter. The show is getting so ridiculous that part of me is hoping Jacob is also dressing up in a disguise and behaving like a villain around town. It would explain why the Crows are so simultaneously incompetent and corrupt, and why he was so opposed to Batwoman.

Hey! If you write a show badly enough, I will start rewriting it for my amusement.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

 Bad things:

...

2. So I get that Angelique decided to go to the jail to save Ryan which was all very very nice, except for the kinda major issues that: a) the police - or in this case, the Crows - do not have to use a confession if they think it's false, which is why b) the court system is going to need more than just that confession, especially given that c) that confession was made without a single attorney present. I realize this is Gotham so the usual court procedures don't exactly apply, but given that this is Gotham, if I'm the DA, I want a lot more than this before issuing an indictment - which would be needed before Angelique could plead guilty.

And now, Sophie:

....

4. Failed to get Angelique an attorney, like, you just promised Batwoman that you would try to protect Angelique, and the very first thing you do is fail to provide her with an attorney. 

As always, I love your summaries and snark. But I have to comment on these comments.

We haven't heard much about the Gotham prosecutors in this series (or really across the main Bat-mythos ever except for the fact that Harvey Dent was the Rare Good Hard-Working D.A./assistant D.A. and look how he turned out. I haven't read deep into Gotham Central, so maybe that had more prosecutors?). But it is a fair assumption that Gotham's prosecutors are generally as lazy, incompetent and corrupt as the police and the Crows. So it is believable that even if Sophie was like, "We can't believe this confession! I have a witness who said there were two gunmen and Angelique was only the getaway driver! There were bullets from two different guns and the trajectory of the bullets shows it couldn't be a single shooter" (just making these things up, obviously), the D.A. would likely be, "Moore, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Take the W." 

Sophie's promise to Batwoman was to protect Angelique from the FFS, not to protect her generally. Angelique can (and apparently did) decline to have counsel and if she does there's not really anything Sophie could do about that.

[quarks]

9 hours ago, possibilities said:

Jacob's voice always sounds like he's about to turn into a very sleepy werewolf. What the hell is wrong with his voice? Actually, I thought he sounded like Black Mask, and for a second when I glanced away, I thought it was Jacob talking about how someone killed his daughter. The show is getting so ridiculous that part of me is hoping Jacob is also dressing up in a disguise and behaving like a villain around town. It would explain why the Crows are so simultaneously incompetent and corrupt, and why he was so opposed to Batwoman.

Hey! If you write a show badly enough, I will start rewriting it for my amusement.

Either Dougray Scott 1) is doing the acting trick of breathing very rapidly/singing at a very high pitch just prior to a scene and then deliberately tensing his neck muscles during the scene, or 2) he's damaged his vocal cords at some point along the line. I'm kinda inclined to think the 2nd, because he otherwise seems mostly checked out from this role, and while I could absolutely see any of the other actors going to the effort of tensing their neck muscles to change their voices, I just don't think Dougray Scott is interested enough to bother. 

 

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We haven't heard much about the Gotham prosecutors in this series (or really across the main Bat-mythos ever except for the fact that Harvey Dent was the Rare Good Hard-Working D.A./assistant D.A. and look how he turned out. I haven't read deep into Gotham Central, so maybe that had more prosecutors?). But it is a fair assumption that Gotham's prosecutors are generally as lazy, incompetent and corrupt as the police and the Crows. So it is believable that even if Sophie was like, "We can't believe this confession! I have a witness who said there were two gunmen and Angelique was only the getaway driver! There were bullets from two different guns and the trajectory of the bullets shows it couldn't be a single shooter" (just making these things up, obviously), the D.A. would likely be, "Moore, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Take the W." 

Sophie's promise to Batwoman was to protect Angelique from the FFS, not to protect her generally. Angelique can (and apparently did) decline to have counsel and if she does there's not really anything Sophie could do about that.

 

In terms of defense counsel, I don't think that Angelique can decline to have counsel until she's in front of a judge - and while that might have happened, Mary was still in that purple shirt with the leather pants in the final scene, so I'm pretty sure we were supposed to think that this all happened in the same evening. So it seems pretty unlikely that Angelique had time to be brought to the Crows, confess, decline counsel and see a judge during that same period - I know Batwoman is following Arrow's example of here of having way too many things happen within a brief evening period, but still.

With the DA, well, I'm sure that the DA would have said something just like that to Sophie. But, and this is my huge but, supposedly Sophie is trying to get justice for people. I know that part of this is tied into her overall plot this season of Finally Getting Around to Questioning Her Role with the Crows, and to get there, we have to see her involved in some questionable practices. 

But the result is that this is the second time this season alone we've seen Sophie involved with sending a person to jail for a crime the person didn't commit - and being ok with it and/or, as in this case, arguing that she couldn't do anything. Which in turn implies that she's done this frequently - which in turn doesn't exactly make her look like the most ethical person, especially after we learned in this episode that her sister has previously been pointing out the problems with this. It really doesn't help that this is happening to marginalized people from impoverished backgrounds. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

In terms of defense counsel, I don't think that Angelique can decline to have counsel until she's in front of a judge - and while that might have happened, Mary was still in that purple shirt with the leather pants in the final scene, so I'm pretty sure we were supposed to think that this all happened in the same evening. So it seems pretty unlikely that Angelique had time to be brought to the Crows, confess, decline counsel and see a judge during that same period - I know Batwoman is following Arrow's example of here of having way too many things happen within a brief evening period, but still.

With the DA, well, I'm sure that the DA would have said something just like that to Sophie. But, and this is my huge but, supposedly Sophie is trying to get justice for people. I know that part of this is tied into her overall plot this season of Finally Getting Around to Questioning Her Role with the Crows, and to get there, we have to see her involved in some questionable practices. 

But the result is that this is the second time this season alone we've seen Sophie involved with sending a person to jail for a crime the person didn't commit - and being ok with it and/or, as in this case, arguing that she couldn't do anything. Which in turn implies that she's done this frequently - which in turn doesn't exactly make her look like the most ethical person, especially after we learned in this episode that her sister has previously been pointing out the problems with this. It really doesn't help that this is happening to marginalized people from impoverished backgrounds. 

People under arrest don't typically get assigned counsel while being interrogated. They have to demand an attorney, and only then should in theory would that trigger getting them one. (In practice, there is a question of what constituting demanding an attorney. There was a somewhat infamous ruling where a suspect saying something akin to "so why don't you give me a lawyer, dawg" was deemed to not be demanding a lawyer, which was memed because the court was apparently not familiar with slang and so thought he  was talking about possibly getting "a lawyer dog.").

Anyway, if Angelique didn't want a lawyer, Sophie had no ability to foist one on her. And there was no reason for Angelique to want one since she was planning to throw herself on her sword. 

Come to think of it, it doesn't really make sense for the FFS to have wanted Angelique to do that. First, because why would the FFS think that threatening Ryan -- then not even Angelique's girlfriend -- would provide enough incentive for Angelique to frame herself? Or that she wouldn't flip if Ryan could be made secure? Or just flip in general? Asking someone to frame herself for what is a death sentence/life without the possibility of parole crime is crazy. And also, they had to know that the cops knew that there was a witness who saw three perps. Maybe they can count on the cops/Crows to be indifferent to the facts, I guess? 

The point is the writers didn't think much through. They just wanted to do a scene to play around with shippers. Aw, look, Angelique really does care! Aw look, the path is now clear for Sophie and Ryan to get together! Are there official names for these ships? Rangelique? SoRy?

Anyway again, Sophie could -- and should -- have done a lot more investigating. Remember, two people who assassinated a police commissioner are still out thr4e! Or even if she felt she was unable to do anything, they could have had Sophie play things less blaze. Like she should be furious and frustrated that Angelique was so stubborn and blocking her from the truth.

It would be nice if the writers would work in a little more originality. We have Alice playing the role of Brand X Joker, Safiyah playing the role of Brand X R'as Al Ghul, and now they are trying to turn Sophie into Brand X Jim Gordon, the early years. Which would be fine, but pretty much every relevant incarnation of early Jim Gordon (Batman Begins/the Dark Knight, Gotham, Batman: Year One and the comics) had him idealistic, active with integrity, often wrestling with dilemmas that he was in. And so far, the writers haven't brought much of that to Sophie. She's just...there. 

It's sad that her sister upstaged her in terms of well, basically everything, in this episode. I don't know if that's a writing, directing, or acting issue, or some combination of all three. But it's a problem.

[BeautifulFlower]

10 hours ago, quarks said:

 

4. Failed to get Angelique an attorney, like, you just promised Batwoman that you would try to protect Angelique, and the very first thing you do is fail to provide her with an attorney.

5. Failed to get further, important info from Angelique about Black Mask.

 

See this is what I mean by finding stuff to dislike Sophie. Come on now with these two points. All of this is on Angelique. Angelique has the RIGHT to refuse an attorney. And what would an attorney do anyway? Angelique was sticking with her story.

Failed to get important info from Angelique about Black Mask? Again, this is all Angelique's fault. Angelique made it clear she was NOT talking about Black Mask. All Sophie could do was keep pushing, but if Angelique refused to talk, there is nothing more she can do.

[Chicago Redshirt]

55 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

See this is what I mean by finding stuff to dislike Sophie. Come on now with these two points. All of this is on Angelique. Angelique has the RIGHT to refuse an attorney. And what would an attorney do anyway? Angelique was sticking with her story.

Failed to get important info from Angelique about Black Mask? Again, this is all Angelique's fault. Angelique made it clear she was NOT talking about Black Mask. All Sophie could do was keep pushing, but if Angelique refused to talk, there is nothing more she can do.

Agreed on the first point.

But on the second point, we weren't shown that Sophie pushed at all. She seemingly was like, Oh well, she's going to stick with a story that I know to be BS.

Imagine that it was Jim Gordon, the lead from the Closer, the crew from the various Law & Orders, pretty much any fictional investigator who was faced with an obviously lying witness and a false confession that is standing in the way of trying to determine who really killed someone, let alone a police commissioner.

Would they be as blase and nonchalant about it as Sophie seemed to be? Absolutely not. They'd threaten the witness, cajole the witness, get frustrate with the witness, explore alternate means of getting to the truth. 

And it's possible of course that Sophie does that in an upcoming episode. But as things stand, she just is like, eh, it is what it is. Angelique loved you enough to lie for you, Ryan and go to jail for a crime she didn't commit, just like you went to jail for her.

[BeautifulFlower]

16 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Agreed on the first point.

But on the second point, we weren't shown that Sophie pushed at all. She seemingly was like, Oh well, she's going to stick with a story that I know to be BS.

Imagine that it was Jim Gordon, the lead from the Closer, the crew from the various Law & Orders, pretty much any fictional investigator who was faced with an obviously lying witness and a false confession that is standing in the way of trying to determine who really killed someone, let alone a police commissioner.

Would they be as blase and nonchalant about it as Sophie seemed to be? Absolutely not. They'd threaten the witness, cajole the witness, get frustrate with the witness, explore alternate means of getting to the truth. 

And it's possible of course that Sophie does that in an upcoming episode. But as things stand, she just is like, eh, it is what it is. Angelique loved you enough to lie for you, Ryan and go to jail for a crime she didn't commit, just like you went to jail for her.

You're missing the point. Angelique was sticking to her story. That means she was NOT talking about Black Mask. Sophie or anyone can continue to push but it'll be pointless. Her lips are sealed.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

You're missing the point. Angelique was sticking to her story. That means she was NOT talking about Black Mask. Sophie or anyone can continue to push but it'll be pointless. Her lips are sealed.

My point is how would a dynamic and professional character react to that refusal to talk?

Your answer may vary.

Mine is: not like Sophie did, which was with acceptance and (as far as we were shown and up till now) no further action than giving Ryan Sophie's bracelet. Hell, even saying to Ryan "I tried everything to get her to tell me the truth about what happened" would IMO have improved the scene a lot. Or showing some of that frustration that as things stand, Angelique is going to possibly get the death penalty for a crime she didn't commit.

Now maybe Sophie tried all sorts of stuff off screen. But that's on the writers. They chose not to show Sophie in her best possible light, given that she was dealt a bum hand. 

[possibilities]

Since Angelique was taking the fall to protect Ryan, the way to incentivize her to talk would be to promise to protect Ryan, or point out how Angelique's actions would not necessarily protect her. The show is taking shortcuts and not really investing in any of this. It's weird what they do or don't think is interesting to show us.

[quarks]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People under arrest don't typically get assigned counsel while being interrogated. They have to demand an attorney, and only then should in theory would that trigger getting them one. (In practice, there is a question of what constituting demanding an attorney. There was a somewhat infamous ruling where a suspect saying something akin to "so why don't you give me a lawyer, dawg" was deemed to not be demanding a lawyer, which was memed because the court was apparently not familiar with slang and so thought he  was talking about possibly getting "a lawyer dog.").

 

High profile cases are frequently handled differently, though, as we're seeing right now with people alleged to have participated in the U.S. Capitol riots, who are not getting interrogated without counsel present. In a less politically charged but also high profile (in the sense of media organizations and cameras) case, Doomsday Mom did talk with cops when her kids initially vanished. But after her indictment, cops didn't question her until counsel was present even though at that point no one knew if the kids were alive or dead. 

 

4 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

See this is what I mean by finding stuff to dislike Sophie. Come on now with these two points. All of this is on Angelique. Angelique has the RIGHT to refuse an attorney. And what would an attorney do anyway? Angelique was sticking with her story.

Again, really, I am not looking for reasons to dislike Sophie. I am trying to figure out what this show is doing with her.

To answer the question about what an attorney would do anyway - quite a lot. After all, the goal here is - or should be - to keep Angelique and Ryan safe from Black Mask - but also prevent Angelique from getting a life sentence or the death penalty for a crime she didn't commit. And here, an attorney could be very useful - file motion after motion after motion to tie Angelique's case up for long enough to get Black Mask captured or get Ryan off to a safe location without forcing Angelique to enter a guilty plea. 

The attorney could also be useful to Sophie, on two levels. First, it's fairly clear that Angelique doesn't trust Sophie or the Crows - more on this in a bit. But it's at least possible that Angelique might be convinced to give useful information to the attorney, which could then be given to Sophie to help her track Black Mask down. As it is, Sophie only has a false confession and no useful info.

Second, it took Mary and Ryan about two minutes to identify the graffiti artist, which means it would not be all that difficult for anyone else - Black Mask or a reporter - to do the same. This is a high profile case; it is not out of the question that reporters will be trying to find anything connected, however small. (I mean, seriously, Dateline just interviewed the ex-wives of one of the former husbands of the Doomsday Cult Mom - women who have absolutely nothing to do with the case on hand, but, hey, ratings!) In which case, it is also not out of the question that the media, or someone, will realize that the Crows let the wrong person take the rap for this murder - something that is only going to add to the Crows' existing PR problem. And once they hear that they didn't even let the girl see an attorney before getting her confession....yeah, that is not going to look good.  

But none of that is why Sophie should have at least tried to bring in an attorney. 

It's because providing an attorney to a suspect is the right thing to do. And it's because this episode made a point of having not one, not two, but at least three characters tell Sophie that the Crows and legal authorities could not be trusted, were not interested in justice, were not interested in protecting people, and were harming innocent people. (The audience also got this information from Black Mask and Jacob, but I'm not counting them because Sophie wasn't there for those conversations.) To the point where Jordan refused to give evidence in a murder investigation to the quasi-legal company where her sister is second-in-command.

Directly confronted with these allegations, what does Sophie do? 

Immediately prove that point by letting a woman go to a jail for a crime she didn't commit.

It doesn't matter whether or not Angelique would have refused counsel or stuck to her story or not. What matters is that, again, getting her an attorney, or at least trying to, was the right thing to do - and something that would have demonstrated that yes, Sophie does believe in justice and the law. That she failed to get Angelique an attorney right after all of those speeches about the failures of Gotham's justice system....well. It's not great. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'd have to see a news source to believe that the feds did not question a single insurrection suspect who did not request a lawyer without voluntarily providing them with one. Because that would be extremely unusual. I would imagine that most suspects invoked their right to an attorney and then of course were provided with a lawyer. 

An attorney would be ethically barred from sharing with Sophie anything that Angelique told her in confidence. So the attorney could not ethically get information from Angelique and turn around to provide it to Sophie. Trying to employ an attorney in that way would be Sophie showing that the distrust of Crows that exists is completely justified. 

An attorney could be an ally to convince Angelique that she should flip and look out for her own interests rather than Ryan's; or that she/Sophie can safeguard Ryan, or things like that. But it also is fair to think that if Angelique is already distrustful of Sophie and the justice system, she's going to be distrustful of an attorney that Sophie helps procure for her, especially when it is an attorney Angelique did not want and when the attorney tells her to do things that Sophie wants. It also should be pointed out that Angelique would probably be wise to suspect that the attorney would be either linked to Black Mask or someone the FFS could/would monitor or intimidate into giving up information.

Providing an attorney for someone who doesn't ask for one might be a good thing to do, but it's not "the right thing" to do. There is no legal or moral obligation to give someone an attorney who doesn't want one. There is (at least in my mind) a moral obligation to do more than "oh well, I guess I will accept this false confession and let someone be prosecuted for a crime they did not commit." Although morally and legally I suppose one could attempt to justify it because even taking Angelique at her word that she was just driving under the impression that she was just doing one last job for the FFS before getting out, she is potentially guilty under accomplice liability or felony-murder depending on the circumstances. So Angelique is not innocent of murder in the sort of way that Ryan was innocent of possessing her drugs. 

[possibilities]

Do lawyers even exist in Gotham? I can't remember ever seeing one.

[Chicago Redshirt]

A few small changes would have improved Sophie's character and this episode a lot, IMO:

1. Have Sophie independently realize that Jordan was at the scene of the shooting and may have seen something.

As things stand the Bat Team and the FFS both figure out Jordan's involvement on their own. The FFS even manages to figure out where she has gone and send thugs to attack her before Sophie has any clue as to Jordan's involvement. Sophie has access to a small army and is a professional investigator. She had every opportunity to see the unfinished tag at the crime scene and to recognize it as her sister's handiwork. She should have been able to put the pieces together at least as fast as Mary. 

2. Have Sophie and Jordan plan to meet at Crows HQ. (the Crows' Nest?)

It is stupid to have Jordan pop up unexpectedly in the backseat of Sophie's car for a bunch of reasons. First, presumably the parking lot should be more secure. Second, for it to happen, Jordan would have to have either a key to Sophie's car or mad lockpicking skillz, neither of which make much sense. Third, even putting that aside, no normal being in Jordan's position would go across town, wait for possibly hours for Sophie to finish her shift (remember, she is working on the assassination of a police commissioner, which should be a big deal and there could be who knows how much work to do on the case)  and then surprise her. It would make way more sense to text/call her, even cryptically to say that she needs help.  Plus, it makes Sophie, a professional investigator, look bad that she can be surprised by someone hiding in the backseat of her car. Again. It was just a couple months ago or less that Alice surprised her. Letting your guard down the once could happen to anyone, but getting caught twice is just sloppy. It would be better for the story if the two arranged to meet, preferably with Sophie being the one to set it up. It would show her as proactive, caring and smart rather than this passive character who things happen to.

3. Have Sophie defend herself from wave 1 of FFS goons

Again, Sophie does pretty much nothing when the FFS goons shows up. It's fine that Batwoman saves the day and everything. But these goons brought crowbars and such to a gun fight. I get that the show probably doesn't want Sophie shooting and killing people for political or other reasons. (I am trying to remember if, across the various Arrowverse shows, the human cops like Quentin Lance, Joe West, Alex Danvers/Maggie Sawyer have ever just shot at normal humans and am coming up blank even though it's OK for Arrow or Wild Dog to put holes in people.). But it makes her look really bad if she has a gun, takes it out, and just is kind of there. 

4. Have Sophie stand up for the Crows

We get it, the Crows have done a lot of shady shit over the years, and basically everybody thinks they are shady. Having Sophie just take all the accusations about how bad the Crows are isn't a good look. Either she agrees with the criticisms, in which case, what is she doing as part of the job? or she doesn't and she's too passive to defend her vocation and herself. It would be more interesting if she at least put up some sort of defense. Not all Crows, or sure there are a few bad apples, but the Crows did all these great things too, or if it weren't for the Crows, Gotham would be an even bigger shithole than it is now.

5. Have Sophie's investigation bear its own fruit

It would have been way better if one of the things the Crows were looking into -- say, how the CC footage was fudged to eliminate evidence of the shooting -- led somewhere that the Bat Team didn't already beat them to. Maybe it could be the thing that got Sophie to the Black Mask Lair instead of Luke saying, hey Batwoman's comms are down, can you check it out?

6. Have her try to flip Angelique or get more info out of her or at least do SOMETHING about her false confession

Like discussed above at length, just accepting it is contrary to who Sophie is supposed to be (or at least, who I think the writers should want her to be) -- a dedicated, fierce advocate of fairness and justice, a professional investigator of crime, and a person with compassion for others.

[quarks]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Providing an attorney for someone who doesn't ask for one might be a good thing to do, but it's not "the right thing" to do. There is no legal or moral obligation to give someone an attorney who doesn't want one. There is (at least in my mind) a moral obligation to do more than "oh well, I guess I will accept this false confession and let someone be prosecuted for a crime they did not commit." Although morally and legally I suppose one could attempt to justify it because even taking Angelique at her word that she was just driving under the impression that she was just doing one last job for the FFS before getting out, she is potentially guilty under accomplice liability or felony-murder depending on the circumstances. So Angelique is not innocent of murder in the sort of way that Ryan was innocent of possessing her drugs. 

(nods)

And also the drug running - she can presumably be charged for and serve jail time for that. Quite possibly a fairly lengthy sentence, too, and given that Ryan went to jail for Angelique, well, I'm not going to shed many tears over that.  

And I should clarify that I'm not fond of Angelique at all, major sacrifice this episode or no major sacrifice - her getting involved with this group was what put Ryan as a bartender in danger in the first place, so....yeah, Angelique, you are not scoring a lot of points with me here, and Ryan, get better taste in women. You're now working at a lesbian bar. I know Covid isn't giving you a lot of extras to choose from, but at least start looking in that direction.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

3. Have Sophie defend herself from wave 1 of FFS goons

Again, Sophie does pretty much nothing when the FFS goons shows up. It's fine that Batwoman saves the day and everything. But these goons brought crowbars and such to a gun fight. I get that the show probably doesn't want Sophie shooting and killing people for political or other reasons. (I am trying to remember if, across the various Arrowverse shows, the human cops like Quentin Lance, Joe West, Alex Danvers/Maggie Sawyer have ever just shot at normal humans and am coming up blank even though it's OK for Arrow or Wild Dog to put holes in people.). But it makes her look really bad if she has a gun, takes it out, and just is kind of there. 

 

 

Quentin Lance shot at normal humans more than once over the course of the series, as did Laurel Lance in seasons 1 and 2 (before she became Black Canary) and Dinah Drake in her role as a cop in later seasons.

Like you, I can't offhand think of a moment where Joe West, Alex Danvers or Maggie Sawyer ever just shot at normal humans - but I'm also not sure that's a great comparison since Team Flash and Team Supergirl rarely, if ever, have physical confrontations/fights with normal humans other than Lex Luthor. The better example might be Ava from Legends of Tomorrow in her early episodes, while she was still with the Time Bureau and armed with a gun. I'm thinking yes, she did, though I'm blanking on specifics. 

For what it's worth, Sophie didn't hesitate to use a gun later in the episode, so it's not at all clear why she hesitated with the FFS goons.

[sugarbaker design]

11 hours ago, possibilities said:

Do lawyers even exist in Gotham? I can't remember ever seeing one.

There's no due process, there's really no need.  When Alice was apprehended by the Crows, she summarily dumped into Arkham.  No due process.

[John Potts]

Does Jake know who Ryan is? Doesn’t he wonder what this random woman is doing at his daughter’s funeral?

You want to be the Walter White of Gotham City? You do know how Breaking Bad ends, right?

“One of my daughters was Batwoman while the other ran an underground medical facility.” Way to forget the one that was a gang leader!

How has the Commissioner survived this long? Strolling down those steps alone at the dead of night in Gotham - he was begging to be shot! (OK, probably also COVID influenced, but still, you’d think he’d be more security conscious). Not that Black Mask was much better - why did he keep Angelique alive long enough to be rescued? And then he got caught monologuing when he should have been decapitating Batwoman!

Can Sophie really be so stupid as to not understand why somebody might confess rather than risk a sadistic gang’s wrath!?

Should I recognise who Enigma is? Her reveal made it seem like we’d met her before somewhere. I hadn’t considered she might be related to Edward Nygma / The Riddler but it’s certainly a possibility.

On 3/29/2021 at 2:00 AM, scarynikki12 said:

As frustrating as Angelique is I think they’re doing a good job with her being Ryan’s weakness. Good call from Mary reminding Ryan that Kate had a similar one with Alice.

Amidst all the manufactured drama, I’m glad they get some real world drama. People will make excuses for those they love, however much it frustrates those around them (like Mary and Luke).

On 3/29/2021 at 4:37 AM, Lantern7 said:

Is it bad that I don't consider Ryan to be the leader of Team Batwoman? It's not an issue of tenure or Kate's shadow. I just keep thinking of Mary and Luke as BatMom and BatDad. At least Ryan is thinking on how to make an impact as Batwoman beyond beating people up.

I think of her more like Michael Knight in Knight Rider.  Devon was technically in charge and KITT was easily the most competent, but it was Michael that made the calls. And on that subject: Luke, don't try to chat with somebody when they're fighting for their life - it can be very distracting. Nobody likes a backseat superhero.