The MU/MCU: From Comics to Screen

[formerlyfreedom]

A place to discuss the larger MU/MCU when it does not directly impact or involve WandaVision!

Nothing is off limits, but remember to be respectful of your fellow posters!

[arc]

I just realized the unblipping would be a once-in-a-lifetime gold mine for identity thieves. 

[Kromm]

I understand this is a catchall topic for both the comics AND other aspects of the MCU, but I do think the subject of what in WandaVision will feed into other MCU product is fascinating too. Not Speculation of what's to come in this show (for which there's already a topic), but what comes AFTER because of it.

I think the overall theme of the dark side of people with powers, and how Humanity/The Government responds, is not just a Marvel Phase 2/3 theme, but also a Phase 4 one.

Think about the stuff being set up.  The entire point of this show appears to be a return to the idea of how damn dangerous Wanda is. This was part of her introduction to the MCU, but her actions specifically were the biggest triggers to the Civil War stuff.  It was played on-screen at that point as an unfortunate incident, but I think the return to the theme here will be an admission the concerns were actually RIGHT.

And if she's dangerous here, there's the suggestion she's likely to be even moreso in Dr. Strange 2.

Power corrupts is also a consistent theme.  When the oversight of heroes gets worse than the heroes themselves?  Disaster.  But this version of Civil War was less about that then the hero infighting.  The theme didn't get properly explored.

We've got ongoing nonsense with General Ross and his beliefs, but those haven't really been properly carried all of the way through.

Another sidestepped thing was that Wanda always was shown as a few sandwiches short of a picnic.  Again, on an incomplete level Civil War should have been about this, but sidestepped most of the implications of how arrogant it was to take this barely sane super-powerful person and trust them to do the right things after that.  I mean even with Hulk, weren't those concerns somewhat justified?  Nice Bruce Banner being under that, and Hulk often being child-like at times doesn't erase the fact that a mere spat could turn him deadly.  The Smart Hulk we eventually got also sidestepped this.

Now we've also got the Falcon and Winter Solider stuff to look at.  From the little we know it includes the government having their OWN version of Captain America, because they have an issue with the independent thinking black version.  Most of this is being surmised from the precident in the comics, but what we've seen of the show previews perfectly matches all of that.

So we have two sides of the same coin.  The theme with WandaVision that this stuff is actually dangerous and maybe the heroes and their judgement shouldn't be trusted, and the seeming hints that when the government tries it, they can't really be trusted either.

[paigow]

21 hours ago, Kromm said:

So we have two sides of the same coin.  The theme with WandaVision that this stuff is actually dangerous and maybe the heroes and their judgement shouldn't be trusted, and the seeming hints that when the government tries it, they can't really be trusted either.

Baron Von Strucker: "It's not a world of spies anymore, not even a world of heroes. This is the age of miracles, Doctor. There is nothing more horrifying... than a miracle."

[Chicago Redshirt]

It seems in the episode threads there are people who have either not watched any or all of the MCU movies or series. So in an effort to provide potential background and a refresher, here is a quick primer on relevant things in the MCU. (I would endorse most MCU movies and series, FWIW. The only things I would say aren't particularly worth your time are the Inhumans TV series, which I did not even finish and which seemingly has been disavowed by Disney, and Thor: The Dark World).

Spoilers, such as they are. Apologies for anything that I oversimplify or am mistaken about. Unless otherwise specified, assume that the year the movie was released is when the events happened.

Iron Man (2008): This movie is the first introduction to the MCU. In it, genius billionaire playboy philanthropist Tony Stark, one of the leading weapons manufacturers, gets kidnapped and creates a suit of armor to escape. Once he's free, he creates an even more powerful suit of armor and uses an artificial intelligence called JARVIS to assist him in running the armor (as well as numerous other things). We are introduced to SHIELD, a global spy organization.

The Avengers (2012): Iron Man joins forces with other superheroes to stop an invasion of an alien race called the Chitauri. The Chitauri have as their field general Loki, the half-brother of one of the Avengers. Loki uses a staff with a stone in it that can control and expand minds. We eventually learn that the staff contains the Mind Stone, one of six powerful objects called Infinity Stones that were created at the time of the Big Bang, Together, all six will allow someone who wields them to control everything. Loki was given this staff by Thanos, who wants to collect all six stones. After Loki is defeated, SHIELD takes custody of the staff with the Mind Stone.

Captain America: The WInter Soldier (2014): Cap finds out that SHIELD, which dates back decades, had been infiltrated by an evil spy organization called Hydra from the getgo. He stops a Hydra plot to deploy three advanced gunships to wipe out any opposition. But in the face of the reveal, Hydra agents kill many SHIELD agents and loot it of many of its belongings and holdings, including Loki's scepter/the Mind Stone. SHIELD as an agency doesn't ever fully reach the status it had prior to the Hydra reveal.

Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015):  The first MCU appearance of Wanda and Vision. The Avengers trace Loki's staff to a Hydra base and raid it.In the process, they encounter Wanda and her twin brother Pietro. The two of them are from a country called Sokovia and hold a grudge against Tony Stark because it was one of his weapons that left them orphans. Hydra, led by a person named Wolfgang Strucker, used the Mind Stone to do experiments on people that mostly failed but in two cases created super-humans. Pietro Maximoff has super-speed, while his twin Wanda has the ability to manipulate people's minds and to telekinetically move objects. Wanda makes several of the Avengers see things they fear. Meanwhile, Tony created a set of robots meant to help defend the planet powered by an AI called Ultron. Ultron is spread among numerous robot bodies and goes bad and tries to destroy the planet instead. In the process, Ultron creates a new body for himself that he calls his "vision." But in his attempts to destroy the world, Ultron is opposed by Jarvis. At some point the Avengers recover the body Ultron made for itself and manage to give it life through using the Mind Stone, the Jarvis AI program and Thor's lightning magic. The Mind Stone is incorrporated in Vision's body, and he can fly, shoot blasts from it and turn intangible. Pietro and Wanda come to realize Ultron is up to no good and oppose him as he seeks to take a chunk of their home country, lift it miles in the air and drop it, which would destroy all life on Earth. The Avengers, and chiefly Vision, end the threat of Ultron for good, but Ultron kills Pietro while Pietro was trying to evacuate Sokovian civilians.

Captain America: Civil War (2016): Cap leads Avengers on a mission to stop a terrorrist group led by an old adversary of his from getting its hands on a bioweapon. Cap has the chief adversary almost beat when he tries to activate a suicide bomb in his vest. Wanda manipulates the explosion and lifts in the air, saving Cap and civilians on the ground, but resulting in deaths in a nearby building above. In the aftermath of this incident, there are calls for trying to put checks on the Avengers activities and specific calls as to Wanda. The United Nations tries to impose what are called the Sokovian Accords-- a set of rules that will establish how and when super-powered individuals can get deployed. A philosophical debate creates the titular civil war. Cap (along with Wanda and other supporters) advocates for the side that the Avengers should have freedom to choose what they do and can be trusted to make the right decisions.  Tony (along with Vision and other supporters) take the side that super-powered people need to have outside checks on their abilities. The two sides eventually go from it being an argument to an actual fight. The upshot is that some heroes have agreed to abide by the Sokovian Accords like Vision, while some who didn't are locked up. Wanda, who did not agree to the Accords, is on the lam at the end of this movie. 

Avengers: Infinity War (2018): Thanos ramps up his mission to get all six Infinity Stones so that he can (in his mind) bring balance to the universe by wiping out half of all life. One of the six is the Mind Stone, so he sends minions to get it from Vision. At this point, Vision and Scarlet Witch have become a couple. They get attacked but fend the minions off with help from other Avengers. Thanos eventually obtains all but the Mind Stone, creating somewhat of a dilemma. If Thanos gets his hands on it, he will create a cosmic genocide. It is a part of Vision, and destroying it would destroy him. The Avengers' brain trust tries to work out a way to safely separate the Mind Stone from Vision so it could be destroyed safely. Before they do, the come under attack from Thanos. Wanda has no choice but to destroy the Mind Stone and thus Vision. But one of the stones allows Thanos to manipulate  time, and so he reverses time so that Thanos can get the Mind Stone, killing Vision in the process. With all six stones in his possession, Thanos snaps his fingers (known as "the Snap.") Thanos actually accomplishes his goal of wiping out half of life in the universe, turning them to dust. The casualties include Wanda and numerous other heroes.

Avengers: Endgame (2019): The main events of the film take place in 2023. The Avengers and the surviving parts of the world are still reeling from the Snap. The Avengers finally track down Thanos, but at that point, he has used the power of the Infinity Stones to destroy the Stones so there is no easy way to undo what he has done.  Eventually one of the Avengers comes up with the crazy idea of going back in time to get the stones, bring them back to their present, use their power to restore all the people and things that had been undone by the Snap and then return the Stones to their proper places in time. The plan mostly works. The Hulk (now intelligent) is able to wield the collective power of the Stones to bring back to life all the people who were Snapped away. The MCU refers to the return of all the people Snapped away as "the Blip." (As far as we know, the Blip did not bring back anybody who died before the Snap like Vision, in the interim, or as a result of, say, the pilot of a plane getting Snapped and the plane crashing) However, a past version of Thanos has gotten wind of what the Avengers are doing and tries to retake the stones to use their power for cosmic levels of destruction. All the heroes including Wanda fight Thanos and ultimately win, thanks to the sacrifice of Tony. After Tony's funeral, Wanda is talking to another Avenger who expresses a wish that he could tell one of their fallen comrades that they won. Wanda said that comrade does know and implies so does Vision. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[swanpride]

Honestly, those are more Spoilers than strictly necessary…..how about this:

This is Visions History according to the MUC: Vision was originally meant to be created by the Robot-Villain Ultron, but the Avengers managed to steal his body just in time, and instead combined Ultron's work with the power of an infinity stone and an AI named Jarvis. Vision was the only one who was able to destroy Ultron, and did so during the battle of Sokovia even though he disliked the need for it. He also rescued Wanda's live during the battle, and after they both joined the Avengers created a bound with her which came close to a budding romance. But during the Civil War between the Avengers, they ended up on opposite sides. During a big battle at Leipzig-Halle Airport, Vision accidentally shot Rhodey out of the sky, crippling him forever. Nevertheless Wanda and Vision kept seeing each other in secret after the big blow up was over. Just as they planned to turn their (sexual) relationship into something permanent, Vision got attacked by the Henchmen of the Mad Titan Thanos, who needed to get his hands on the infinity stone. Wanda and the rogue Avengers managed to rescue him just in time, and conducted a plan to remove the infinity stone from Visions forehead without destroying him. Sadly Thanos attacked before the process was done. Vision convinced Wanda to destroy the Infinity stone (and therefore himself) before Thanos arrive, which she did, but Thanos used another infinity stone to reverse time and then kill Vision again when he removed the infinity stone from his body.

 

This is Wanda's history: Wanda and her twin brother Pietro were born in Sokovia. When they were children, their home was destroyed by bombs made from Stark industry. Their parents died and Wanda and Pietro were trapped for hours staring at an unexploded bomb, afraid that it might go off any time, until they were freed. The twins became activists and freedom fighters for Sokovia, and eventually were recruited by Hydra for a bunch of experiments with an alien sceptre which contained an infinity stone, which were conducted by a Hydra leader called Strucker. The twins were the only survivor of those experiments with Pietro (Quicksilver) gaining super speed and Wanda gaining various mind and reality bending abilities. After the Avengers attacked the compound, took the Hydra cell down and arrested Strucker, Wanda, driven by the desire for revenge, manipulated Tony's mind, which lead to him using the sceptre to create Ultron. Ultron killed Strucker in his cell and recruited Wanda and Pietro. In her desire for revenge, she attacked the Avengers with haunting visions and set off the Hulk, who wrought destruction on a city but Tony Stark (Ironman) managed to contain him before he killed someone. When Wanda read Ultron's mind and realised that his plan was the destruction of the world, she and Pietro deserted and teamed up with the Avengers. She fast developed a bound with Clint (Hawkeye) who encouraged her to fight. After Pietro died in the Battle of Sokovia rescuing Clint's live, he named his third child after him and looked out for Wanda. During a battle in Lagos, Wanda managed to rescue the live of Cap and countless bystanders containing an exploding bomb and then moving it away, but she didn't manage to move it away fast enough, which in turn caused the bomb to explode close to a building, killing a number of people, and event which speed up the creation of the Sokovia accords. Initially Wanda wanted to stay neutral in the Civil War, but Clint convinced her to join forces with Cap (the Anti-Accords fraction). She fought Vision to break free from a house arrest Tony Stark has placed her under, and then fought on the side of the rogues in the battle on Airport Leipzig-Halle. There she got captured after Rhodey took her down, and ended up in the raft, where she got treated worse than any other Avenger due to her special powers. Cap eventually freed the Rogues and she went on the run with him, but she also kept contact with Vision, starting a deep relationship. As described above, she was forced to kill Vision since she was the only one who could destroy the infinity stone in his head but Thanos reversed what she did, and killed Vision again right before her eyes. Then he snapped away half of the population in the universe, which included Wanda, who was kneeling in front of Visions body. Five years later those people were restored, including Wanda, who immediately after joined into a big battle against Thanos and was later seen attending the funeral of a fellow fallen avenger. The show is set roughly three month after those events.

[arc]

Yeah, but it's such a cool role upgrade for Paul Bettany, who initially was just playing the (then only a voiceover part) JARVIS in Iron Man (2008) that I think it's worth including. Esp since he says he was at such a low point in his career. An exec had just told him he'd never work again, and then he got the call to be JARVIS. And that got upgraded to Vision (admittedly a relatively small part of the Avengers movies*), and then now he's in Wandavision.

* some people call Civil War "Avengers 2.5"

[swanpride]

Why would he never work again???? That sounds like a really harsh assessment….

[arc]

Well, I gather it was during a slow period in his career. The producer (sorry, not an exec) sounds like he was being a jerk.

Also, I totally misremembered!!! It was later than 2008. He had already been JARVIS and then this fight happened right before Joss Whedon offered the Vision role to Bettany.

[Kromm]

Wandavision: The dark, strange comic book history of Sparky the dog:

https://www.gamesradar.com/wandavision-who-is-sparky-the-dog/

[tv echo]

The WandaVision Episode 5 Moment That Mirrors An '80s Marvel Comic
BY SHANE O'NEILL   FEB. 6, 2021 
https://www.looper.com/328450/the-wandavision-episode-5-moment-that-mirrors-an-80s-marvel-comic/

Quote

... The first few episodes of WandaVision hinted at what's really going on here, but it's the fifth, entitled "On This Very Special Episode...," that really starts supplying the answers we're all seeking. 

Through this slow process of revelation, the show called back to a moment from a classic Marvel Comics arc from the 1980s.

WandaVision meets Vision Quest

During a S.W.O.R.D. meeting about how best to deal with Wanda and her control over Westview, New Jersey, Director Hayward (Josh Stamberg) pulls up a recording from nine days prior. The footage shows the telepathic and telekinetic mutant tearing through a S.W.O.R.D. facility, making her way to the room where the organization housed Vision's corpse. The synthezoid lay dissected, with parts strewn about on different tables so that he could be examined to unknown ends. The content of this scene, as well as the layout, greatly resemble the above panel from the 1989 comic book story, Vision Quest.

In this brief yet powerful multi-issue arc, Vision has gone missing, leading an enraged Wanda and her fellow heroes (including Hawkeye, Tigra, Wonder Man, and a handful of other notable names) on a journey to find him. When she and Mockingbird finally track down Vision and attempt to rescue him, however, he's completely disassembled and sprawled out across a large table with his skin discarded in the corner. Scientists surround him, their work interrupted as Wanda breaks into the laboratory.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by tv echo

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, tv echo said:

The WandaVision Episode 5 Moment That Mirrors An '80s Marvel Comic
BY SHANE O'NEILL   FEB. 6, 2021 
https://www.looper.com/328450/the-wandavision-episode-5-moment-that-mirrors-an-80s-marvel-comic/

 

That was West Coast Avengers and I love those comics. Back when I was reading comics my local store was selling off back issues and it was like 10 consecutive issues for a few bucks. I read most of the series. I can't remember the order but around the same time: Vision gets his personality erased, becomes an all white robot, and then Hank Pym discovers that he was made from parts of the Original Human Torch. Wonder man whose brain waves were used to create Vision originally refuses to use them again. Speaking of which I wonder what the chances are of Simon Williams aka Wonder man showing up in this series. There was supposed to be a background gag in GotG Vol 2 where you see a movie poster on earth and it is a picture of Nathan Fillion as Simon Williams. But it got cut. Although to me if you are going to get someone to play an MCU actor you should the the most A-list actor you can find like Will Smith or Brad Pitt.

That is also around when Wanda first gets pregnant and the babies disappear basically because they were made by the devil. And not surprisingly she loses it over this. Man I would love to read those issues again, West Coast Avengers is also how Hawkeye became one of my favourite comic book Avengers.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[Chicago Redshirt]

Elizabeth Olsen gives a quick run-down of Wanda's comic book history here, for all places, Allure. Even though the vid is from 2016,  I think it may telegraph some of what is going on in WandaVision, so viewer beware:

 

[arc]

My not-that-online friend had a wild idea of who the big bad of the show might be. Personally, I think it’s unlikely, but it would definitely fit the premise. Her idea is that it‘s Mojo.

[Silver Raven]

3 hours ago, arc said:

My not-that-online friend had a wild idea of who the big bad of the show might be. Personally, I think it’s unlikely, but it would definitely fit the premise. Her idea is that it‘s Mojo.

I saw somebody suggest it might be Dottie as Emma Frost.

 

The alternate James Woo:

Former FBI agent and agent of SHIELD, He then took over the criminal organization The Atlas Foundtaion, which was descended from Genghis Khan's Mongol Empire.  He had been bred to lead them as a child, but his parents didn't want him involved in that and took him out of their clutches.  He turned Atlas into a righteous organization 

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/James_Woo_(Earth-616)

[Sakura12]

I wonder if they'll introduce Hulkling in Captain Marvel too, now that they have Wiccan. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

To respond to something from the Episode 6 thread:

I understand grief, fear, confusion from Snap survivors but not the idea that it was actually dangerous after the first few hours or days. So what kind of tough or questionable choices could they possibly have had to make? They weren't stranded in a wilderness or starving or in danger of death. They weren't battling for their lives or fighting to survive or anything like it. So I end up thinking that he's just a nasty dick who would be a nasty dick Snap or no.

One of the unfortunate things is we probably will never get to see in detail what happened between the Snap and the beginning of Endgame. Because I think there is a lot of fertile ground to talk about how people coped with the sudden disappearance of half of the living things on planet Earth and elsewhere. 

By contrast with you, I think things easily could have gotten really messed up. Just dealing with the unprecedented PTSD of (roughly) half the people you knew being dead and the survivor's guilt would rock people to their cores. 

And depending on which people were randomly the survivors things could be dramatically better or worse than the status quo. What if the survivors were randomly disproportionately young, old, in one country or continent, with or without certain survival skills or traits?

If the 3.5 billion survivors include just a handful of people familiar with agriculture or medicine or engineering or numerous other disciplines, things would likely take a sharp turn for the worse.

And even if the survivors were pretty evenly spread across backgrounds and locations and so forth, it's certainly possible that forces could rise up to try to turn leadership and other vacuums to their advantage. On a smaller level, how much looting and craziness would there be when some people thought half the world was theirs for the taking?

There would very likely be the fear that there could be a sequel to the Snap or some other alien horror. The fact that the heroes failed to prevent the Snap would likely be incredibly demoralizing..

Long story short, I don't disbelieve Hayward to think that things would have gotten pretty dicey for a while in the aftermath of the Snap. 

 

 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There would very likely be the fear that there could be a sequel to the Snap or some other alien horror. The fact that the heroes failed to prevent the Snap would likely be incredibly demoralizing..

It would be weird. Plus you would have to figure a huge portion of the population wouldn't really know what happened. I mean I doubt the entire world would just take Captain America's word and believe that a giant alien with a magic glove came to a country that no one has ever been to, snapped his fingers and half of all life vanished. There would be all kinds of conspiracy theories and hard core religious people losing their minds.

[Danny Franks]

On 2/13/2021 at 11:55 AM, Sakura12 said:

I wonder if they'll introduce Hulkling in Captain Marvel too, now that they have Wiccan. 

I don't see why not. We've got Skrulls, we've got Young Avengers, we've established that Hulk is now an idol to a lot of kids. If Marvel want to put a gay relationship on the screen then Wiccan (once he's grown up, which at this rate should be in about three weeks from now) and Hulkling are a good starting point.

The problem with all the discussion of who's behind this is that it robs Wanda of her agency, as misguided and damaging as it is, and pins the blame on someone else who's manipulating and controlling her. I never liked it when the Marvel Comics did that, and laid Avengers: Disassembled and M Day at the feet of Dr. Doom instead.

There was an interesting exploration of how responsible you can hold someone for something they did while suffering from mental illness and grief - especially when the consequences weren't what they intended - and the messy angst, recrimination and desire for revenge that goes with it. But I guess Marvel just wanted to make Wanda an accepted hero again, so they waved their editorial wand and cleaned it up.

However, I do think the MCU will take that same path, worried that fans will struggle to accept her doing bad things without someone else manipulating her. Mephisto makes the most sense, because he was already involved in the creation of her children in the comics and is incredibly unpopular with comic book fans thanks to also being responsible (on the page) for Spider-Man: Brand New Day.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

22 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

The problem with all the discussion of who's behind this is that it robs Wanda of her agency, as misguided and damaging as it is, and pins the blame on someone else who's manipulating and controlling her. I never liked it when the Marvel Comics did that, and laid Avengers: Disassembled and M Day at the feet of Dr. Doom instead.

Except this has been Wanda's story from the beginning as far as movie canon goes. She was a ten year old kid when her parents died, and we don't have any information about what happened in the years between then and when she and her brother fell in with the Sokovian radicals. Even if they sought out Strucker on their own, their need for revenge/payback would have made them easy to manipulate, and there was no way they could have gone up against Stark and the Avengers without powers. We never even find out what Hydra intended for them to do with their abilities once they had them, but I doubt it was anything good. They might have volunteered, but I think all they heard was, "Sure, we'll help you so you can destroy these people", but that doesn't mean they weren't expected to do X Whatever Thing in addition to that.

To an extent, she was manipulated by Ultron as well. We can debate whether or not she was willing to go along as long as she and Pietro were safe, but her horror when she realized what the real plan was made her do a 180 immediately, not wait to see what might happen if they hung around. Her agency was in calling a halt in the headlong need to kill the Avengers, and I think it's just as detrimental to ignore that.

As for the show, it seems unnecessarily elaborate to drop so many hints that it isn't entirely Wanda who is doing this or benefiting from it if it isn't just her. Wanda having agency doesn't preclude there being someone behind the curtain, as it were, and I don't get the idea that she "should be" the actual villain here. What happens if she is the real villain? I don't think it's that Marvel believes she won't be accepted. Bucky Barnes, Loki, and even Bruce Banner have done a bunch of stuff they shouldn't have, but Bucky is thoroughly seen as a victim, Loki is "complicated", and Bruce actually learned how to adapt The Other Guy into something a lot more normal and kid-friendly. It seems strange to single Wanda out on the grounds of her having agency if she isn't the only one who is doing this.

[swanpride]

There were two ways to go...to portray the situation in a way that Wanda being the one doing it comes as a great shock (which would have never worked because, well, people actually read the comics and talk about what they have read online), or to hint towards a big bad. But I don't think that someone trapping Wanda in the situation originally is in any way excusing her from not doing anything about it. What is excusing her is more the fact that after all the hurt and pain she went through her clinging to this reality is an understandable reaction. Which is exactly the same reasoning which excuses Tony trying to commit a murder btw. People do terrible things if they are put under enough stress.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

16 minutes ago, swanpride said:

 Which is exactly the same reasoning which excuses Tony trying to commit a murder btw. People do terrible things if they are put under enough stress.

"Every time someone tries to win the war before it starts, innocent people die. Every time."

Sorry.

Kind of.

Looked at that way, Tony and Wanda had way more in common than the movies have ever explored. Somewhere between her and Stark, most of went wrong in Civil War was laid at their feet; Tony for pushing the Accords so hard out of his own guilt, Wanda for screwing up in Lagos even though it was Steve's brilliant idea to be there without informing the authorities; Tony for helping to arrest Cap and Sam, Wanda for leaving the compound instead of staying put; Tony for trying to kill Bucky after he watched his parents be murdered, I guess Wanda for "making" the guards at the Raft put a shock collar around her neck so she couldn't use her powers. If no one has used Wanda's mistakes quite as often as a stick to hit her with or gotten in a line so they can take turns lecturing her, that's not necessarily a bad thing, IMO.

I'm not sure what the viewers who say that Wanda should be the villain want, or expect to happen if she is. I don't believe the franchise is going to make her into a real villain, and they intend to go forward with the character for at least one more film since she'll be in the Dr Strange sequel. And she hasn't gone "too far" yet, because even though Hayward moronically tried to blow her up, she didn't retaliate with violence when she absolutely could have. She probably hurt Pietro worse with flinging him across the town square, but he's still alive. That there's some doubt about whether he even is her brother is also of note, because he's the only one who is totally throwing the script away, even beyond Agnes occasionally 'breaking character.'

[swanpride]

What mistakes exactly? Nothing which happened in Civil war was Wanda's fault. She wanted to stay neutral, but one side decided to imprison her into her own home, and the other encouraged her to embrace who she is. She also wasn't the one who caused most of the destruction in the airport fight, the only thing she destroyed were a few cars. And she certainly wasn't "making" anyone to put her into the raft and mistreat her there.

[Cthulhudrew]

Based on episode 7's commercial, it looks like the MCU relocated the Nexus of All Realities from Florida to New Jersey.

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Based on episode 7's commercial, it looks like the MCU relocated the Nexus of All Realities from Florida to New Jersey.

So is Dr. Strange 2 gonna be set in NJ too?  Heh. 

We're also getting a potential huge break with comics continuity IF Agatha actually is the big bad and doesn't have a boss. The character has been shady at times in the comics, but not of her own volition. 

[Kromm]

For those who don't know... (click) 

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nexus_of_All_Realities

 

[Featherhat]

I've also seen speculation that Wanda is a Nexus Being:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nexus_Beings

[Kromm]

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I've also seen speculation that Wanda is a Nexus Being:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nexus_Beings

What intrigues me there is the mention of the TVA.  Making me think the secret cameo is either Tom Hiddleston, or even more likely, Owen Wilson. 

Wilson would fit how Bettany characterized this exactly. He recently clarified that he hadn't seen ANY guesses out there about the cameo that were right. He likely just means in media reports, but even still... 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Kromm

[swanpride]

What about Tilda Swinton? Certainly the kind of actor he would be impressed by his whole career, and the Ancient one is kind of fitting in the setting. Sure, dead in this universe, but if we are talking about alternate universes….

[paigow]

41 minutes ago, Kromm said:

He recently clarified that he hadn't seen ANY guesses out there about the cameo that were right. He likely just means in media reports, but even still... 

Bettany or one of his minions is lurking on all these fan sites and laughing.... 

[Cthulhudrew]

10 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I've also seen speculation that Wanda is a Nexus Being:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Nexus_Beings

I saw that, too. It would fit with some of the other aspects of the show that seem drawn from that West Coast Avengers "Wanda Gone Mad" storyline (a lot, really- Vision dissected by the government; kids revealed to be imaginary; etc.). The first thought came to me was Man-Thing's Nexus (which, as Kromm pointed out, has a lot of ties to Dr. Strange), and had completely forgotten that Immortus called Wanda a Nexus-being. Then again, there isn't any particular reason they can't tie all of these things together, either.

Something else that occurred to me that I forgot to mention: someone in the episode thread mentioned the book at the end, and said he thought it might be the Necronomicon. My first thought when I saw it was that it is probably the Marvel comics equivalent, The Darkhold, which would be appropriate, as the Darkhold was written by the elder demon Cthon, who once possessed Wanda and who is trapped in Wundagore Mountain, which is in Wanda and Pietro's home country.

People keep talking about Mephisto (likely due to his connection to the storyline mentioned above with Immortus, the Vision being dismantled, and Wanda's kids being imaginary), but could the real villain be Cthon? It would be more in keeping with the comics, and it might avoid the sort of satanic/real-world imagery that might otherwise be objectionable with the Mephisto character.

[Silver Raven]

So I didn't know this, but after seeing the fly in Agatha's house, people are pointing out that Mephisto first appeared in the comics as a fly.

 

[swanpride]

The Darkhold already played a role in Agents of Shield. I am actually not sure what happened to it...I think the Ghost Rider took it? I am not sure though….

 

[Captain Stable]

14 hours ago, Kromm said:

What intrigues me there is the mention of the TVA.  Making me think the secret cameo is either Tom Hiddleston, or even more likely, Owen Wilson.

I'm slightly out of the loop here, so apologies for what might be a stupid question.
What's a TVA?
I know Tom Hiddles is Loki, but who has Owen Wilson been that makes him MORE likely to appear? 

[starri]

1 hour ago, Captain Stable said:

What's a TVA?

Time Variance Authority.  They monitor the multiverse and clip off problematic timelines.

On 2/13/2021 at 6:55 AM, Sakura12 said:

I wonder if they'll introduce Hulkling in Captain Marvel too, now that they have Wiccan. 

I would love it if they did, but I can't figure out how they would do it.  With Mar'Vell being long dead in the contemporary MCU (as well as being a middle-aged woman instead of a younger man), they'd have a really hard time explaining a teenaged son.

[swanpride]

Not really...because who has paid attention during Captain Marvel noticed that Thalos came to the planet with three people. On died in the car accident and one was killed by Yon-Rogg, but that leaves the third one (the one who played the granny) unaccounted for. For all we know there has been a hidden Scrull living on Earth since the 1990s.

Another possibility is that Hulkling is simply introduced as someone born to someone from Thalos people.

And there is also the option of rewriting his whole backstory, making him an alien all along, maybe one who saw Hulk on Sakar and was so impressed that he copied him.

There is really no trouble at all to add a secret Skrull child to earth at one point or another.

[Sakura12]

Mar-Vell could've already had a kid and Hulkling could be her grandson instead. Or he can be someone else's kid and we'll see him in the Secret Invasion show. 

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, Captain Stable said:

I'm slightly out of the loop here, so apologies for what might be a stupid question.
What's a TVA?
I know Tom Hiddles is Loki, but who has Owen Wilson been that makes him MORE likely to appear? 

As has already been specified, Time Variance Authority. What ISN'T obvious from that name is that they don't only police time, but also access to the multiverse. The tie in being that time travel often results in pretty much the same thing.  Remember when Cap went back and lived a life in the past he didn't originally? Technically the TVA probably should have stopped that, because he created a new parallel universe by doing that. 

If you go watch the trailer for Loki you'll learn Loki's relationship to the TVA, and also Owen Wilson's. The short version though is that Wilson would be more likely to show up to deal with a multiverse Nexus, because Loki is only hesitantly attached to the TVA, and Wilson's character appears to be intentionally attached to them. 

[Kromm]

In an episode thread someone declared :

 

Quote

 

They better be. Because I really want a Young Avengers movie. The MCU can't tease me with Billy and Tommy and then make them disappear with a hand wave that they never truly existed.

 

 

But of course that's EXACTLY what happened in the comics. 

The comics only LATER jumped through complicated hoops to recreate the Twins. They're not technically the same beings anymore, but reincarnated versions. 

(stupid broken quote feature - that second part is me and it won't let me delete the text and move it out here) 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Kromm

[swanpride]

Well, I am pretty sure that they won't do that in the MCU. Even if the "vanish" as some big cliff-hanger, I am sure that getting them back will be a proper arc down the line.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Well, I am pretty sure that they won't do that in the MCU. Even if the "vanish" as some big cliff-hanger, I am sure that getting them back will be a proper arc down the line.

I agree. They haven’t gone to the trouble of using multiple shows to introduce nearly everyone from the Young Avengers just to have Speed and Wiccan disappear for good. 

[swanpride]

So...what have we left for Young Avengers...

Stature (Cassie Lang) already exists in the movies.
Speed and Wiccan have been introduced now.
Kate Bishop will for sure be introduced in the Hawkeye series.
And Miss America has been rumoured for a while too.
The others are mostly optional, I think, with the notable exception of Hulkling and kid Loki. And naturally they could add Ms Marvel to the line-up, even if she isn't an original member….

[Guest]

1 minute ago, swanpride said:

And Miss America has been rumoured for a while too.

She’s already been confirmed for DS2. I’m guessing that Iron Heart is going to take the place of Iron Lad since her series has been announced. 

[swanpride]

Honestly, there is no hurry...they can start with a smaller group and then introduce new characters over time.

[FnkyChkn34]

39 minutes ago, swanpride said:

So...what have we left for Young Avengers...

Stature (Cassie Lang) already exists in the movies.
Speed and Wiccan have been introduced now.
Kate Bishop will for sure be introduced in the Hawkeye series.
And Miss America has been rumoured for a while too.
The others are mostly optional, I think, with the notable exception of Hulkling and kid Loki. And naturally they could add Ms Marvel to the line-up, even if she isn't an original member….

There will be a new Black Widow in Black Widow, apparently.  Played by Florence Pugh.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

There will be a new Black Widow in Black Widow, apparently.  Played by Florence Pugh.

There is an entire platoon of Black Widow students in the movie. Romanoff and her "sister" want to free them.

[Bill1978]

6 hours ago, swanpride said:

The others are mostly optional, I think, with the notable exception of Hulkling and kid Loki.

When I was watching Captain Marvel the first time, I remember thinking now that the MCU has fully introduced the whole Kree/Skrull conflict that it would make introducing Hulkling into the MCU so much easier for the non-comic book followers to understand his backstory without having to go into major plot details of the battle history.

14 hours ago, Kromm said:

But of course that's EXACTLY what happened in the comics. 

The comics only LATER jumped through complicated hoops to recreate the Twins. They're not technically the same beings anymore, but reincarnated versions.

I confess I have only read the Young Avengers comics from the Marvel stable, and that's because of the Wiccan/Hulking relationship. But I didn't have access to the original series that introduced the gang as a team. When I did net research and came across the first Billy/Tommy moment I remember thinking I hope the MCU doesn't go down that path as it seems unnecessarily complicated. But the MCU has taught me to have faith in the way they introduce people. So fingers crossed The Twins don't get vanished. I can cope with a memory wipe and being placed with adoptive parents but not a true wiped from existence because the TV show is over.

[Danny Franks]

23 hours ago, swanpride said:

So...what have we left for Young Avengers...

Stature (Cassie Lang) already exists in the movies.
Speed and Wiccan have been introduced now.
Kate Bishop will for sure be introduced in the Hawkeye series.
And Miss America has been rumoured for a while too.
The others are mostly optional, I think, with the notable exception of Hulkling and kid Loki. And naturally they could add Ms Marvel to the line-up, even if she isn't an original member….

America Chavez and Ms. Marvel are both on the way and I imagine the Young Avengers team will be an amalgam of different young heroes rather than be a full interpretation of Allan Heinberg's book. I can do without Patriot or Iron Lad, to be honest. I never liked either character and Iron Lad comes with way too many complications.

Hulkling could just be a Skrull in the MCU, albeit one who chooses to live as a particular human for the majority of the time. But if they want to establish him as a Kree/Skrull mix it won't be too difficult.

I just reread The Children's Crusade and can't say I enjoyed it much. There's something very black and white about it, despite the constant insistence that everything is grey - the Young Avengers are good, the Avengers are good, Doom is bad. Wanda is good but she's just been manipulated and used. Cyclops is written horrendously in it, by the way.

[swanpride]

A few years ago someone gifted a book to me about the Avengers, which basically listed Heroes (and a few villains) in alphabetical Order with some notes about who they are. No x-men (at least not directly, Captain Britain for example was there), but there were 227 characters in the book, and if you scratch out those which have already appeared, there are now 86 left (yes, seriously, the others have turned up at one point or in the case of the Eternals or Miss Marvel will appear for sure soon). And from those 86 I haven't scratched out those which are already heavily rumoured, like Kate Bishop.

The book has actually become a very practical guide for what the future of the MCU might have in store. I mean, it is not like the MCU never adapted a character not in the book (Agatha for example isn't in it, but then, it mostly focusses on heroes and the biggest villains of the Avengers), but I guess what is in the book are mostly what Marvel at that time (around 2015) considered "highlight characters", also in light of the MCU (Coulson and the MCU version of the GotG are also in it).

Anyway, from the Young avengers which were listed in the book the ones which haven't turne up yet are only Hulkling, Iron Lad, Marvel Boy and Miss America. And kid Loki, I guess (I scratched him because Loki is already a thing, but he is actually listed in the book as his own character). I agree that they might replace Marvel Boy with Ms. Marvel and Iron Lad with Iron Heart, which would still leave Hulkling. But there is a lot of room to introduce him in one of the many, many shows….

 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/23/2021 at 4:53 PM, swanpride said:

Anyway, from the Young avengers which were listed in the book the ones which haven't turne up yet are only Hulkling, Iron Lad, Marvel Boy and Miss America. And kid Loki, I guess (I scratched him because Loki is already a thing, but he is actually listed in the book as his own character). I agree that they might replace Marvel Boy with Ms. Marvel and Iron Lad with Iron Heart, which would still leave Hulkling. But there is a lot of room to introduce him in one of the many, many shows….

Maybe it is just me but Young Avengers sounds super lame. Then again I generally think kid super heroes are kind of stupid and out-dated especially ones that work with adult heroes (although Spiderman is a weird exception to that rule). Plus if they are going to make an alternate Avengers group it needs to be the West Coast Avengers. I mean MCU Hank Pym is already really rich and lives in California.