S12.E09: First Blood

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I'm confused as to how praying to Cas would have done anything. He's wingless, so he can't teleport to them/teleport them out. They have those sigil thingies inside their bodies to prevent angels from being able to detect where they are, and it's not like they knew where they were to offer instructions.

It's not so much that Cass could do anything, but the plot was unnecessarily contrived and pointlessly melodramatic to make it seem they had no other option than to offer themselves up to Billie. But, it wouldn't be Supernatural if the plot wasn't unnecessarily contrived and pointlessly melodramatic. ;)

[Boopsahoy]

18 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Random thought: if they were in there a minimum of 6 weeks, shouldn't Dean's hair have been longer?  I know they showed him using an electric razor, but if he buzzed his entire head, it should have been even shorter.  Ditto for Sam.  

I thought Deans hair WAS longer than usual :-)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, he went through a whole year in Purgatory and his hair stayed the same length without looking ragged or hacked off, even though Cas managed to grow a beard.  Maybe John put a spell on Dean's hair when he was young so he wouldn't have to waste time and money on haircuts (but Sam found a way to break it for himself).  

Well, that was Purgatory - which I think is not constrained by time as we know it on earth.  (Like in Heaven and Hell.)  Someone else also posted a few good theories as to why Dean's hair didn't grow but Cas' beard did - like having to do with Dean being a human in Purgatory (and humans weren't supposed to be there) etc, I think it was back in those episode threads.  

Point is: I don't think those explanations would work here.  The spell one might though.  :)  

Now, my hair grows fast (about an inch a month, more in the summer).  I know not everyone's grows that fast.  And with Sam's longer hair, maybe the difference wouldn't be quite as noticeable.  But with Dean's already short hair, especially on the sides, it probably should have been over or touching his ears.

And did they manage to keep it styled so nicely?  Must be a spell.  (I know, it's Supernatural, after all...)There was only a bed, sink, and toilet in the cell.  Probably weren't given blow-dryers.  I was actually surprised they had razors.  I  guess they had to give themselves sponge-baths, cause 6 weeks* without bathing - eww.  I wouldn't want to be in that car with them at the end.  

Yes, I seem to be weirdly obsessed with their personal hygiene.  

*I actually think it was longer than 6 weeks.  I know we heard one of the CIA guys say they'd been in there 6 weeks, but that's when they still weren't talking, before they 'killed themselves.'  When they were laid out in the morgue, the older man said it had been 2 months.  I think of 2 months as 8 weeks, so in my head, it was 8 weeks.  

2 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

I thought Deans hair WAS longer than usual :-)

Huh.  Well then, I simply must go back and watch again!  Research, you know.  ;)

[Goldmoon]

Quote

 

Even though I enjoyed this episode on first run, it really was full of nonsense when I thought about it.  I have just HATED all the episodes this season, so the fact that I enjoyed seeing the boys in the woods lulled me into a false sense of SPN goodness.  I agree with so much of what others have said, but considering Jared's "Always Keep Fighting" campaign, I thought having the boys decide to commit suicide after six measly weeks in solitary was in bad taste.  Like Sam, I enjoy books and have a good imagination.  I have always thought I would do well in solitary myself if necessary because I could make up stories and rewatch whole movies in my head.  I think Sam is capable of entertaining himself for the rest of his life for that reason.  Dean?  I can buy he would be less comfortable in solitary because he seems less intellectually inclined, but no.  Six weeks of rest wouldn't break him.

[SueB]

Other thoughts:
- Kinda consistent but interesting: Sam worked out, Dean did not (or at least they chose not to show it).
- Did Dean fall asleep on that toilet?  Or was he using it as a chair?  
- I'm going to have to agree: sponge bath.  But no barbers. Sam could easily add an inch of hair without noticing.  Dean might have ... but I'll have to do some "research" on the video. For science. 
- I liked that they never told the BMoL they were taking on Lucifer.  And then Cas casually mentions it.
- At the time Dean called Billie, the ONLY thing that would have been on camera was Dean saying the word "Billie".  IF she showed (which she did), she could block the cameras/video from recording their interactions.  Talking to Cas, without him popping in right away, would have left a longer record.
- "3 hots and a cot" - Dean himself has said that's not a bad life.   I'm telling ya, the "worse than hell" was a cover by the boys to justify why they made the deal with Billie for Cas and Mary's sake.  And Dean called Billie because 6 weeks was enough time to know they had to rescue themselves.
-  Impala & other possessions theory: The Secret Service guy had already called out the Impala as "high profile".  I think the boys hid the car & keys and got to the motel via Cas' pimp mobile.  They may have also stolen a get-away car in prep for their retreat and had it stashed nearby. Further, I wouldn't be surprised if they left everything except guns and the egg, behind.  I could see them going into that confrontation with LOTUS with zero identifying material.  They could have easily been killed or arrested (which they were).  Leaving their phones with all those contacts on it?  No way.  So, I think Dean's beloved gun is also safe.  
- Who still knows about the boys? Well, POTUS and his girlfriend.  Neither are likely to talk.
- I'm a little mad at them for NOT leaving a note behind for Mary.  Taking on LOTUS was such a dangerous mission, leaving her behind without a note does not sit right with me.

 

ETA:  And about those COSMIC consequences.  It occurred to me, it wasn't "kill me (Billie) and it has consequences".  It was "break a deal".  And there was blood involved. We know blood magic is powerful mojo.  But we didn't see Billie spill her vessel's blood.  They just cut their hand.  So.. how BIG could the consequences really be?  They're just two humans who made a blood pack with a Reaper.  This is gonna be revisited, I think.  But... is it possible that Billie was just tricking them?  They are so used to deals being big problems.  But ultimately she had to have one of them KILL themselves.  She couldn't do it.  So, why not dangle a "cosmic consequence" threat?  The Winchesters weren't going to die anytime soon in those prison cells.   Billie could have been impatient.  She's been gunning for them for nearly two years.  I'm just saying, the words (cosmic consequences) were thrown out -- so they SHOULD mean something -- but they could also have been an empty threat in a ploy by Billie to reap one of the Winchesters.  

Edited January 28, 2017 by SueB

[bethy]

18 minutes ago, SueB said:

Kinda consistent but interesting: Sam worked out, Dean did not (or at least they chose not to show it).

I think they did show Dean working out. At least I thought they cut back and forth between the two of them. There was a shot of Dean doing pushups from above?

[SueB]

50 minutes ago, bethy said:

I think they did show Dean working out. At least I thought they cut back and forth between the two of them. There was a shot of Dean doing pushups from above?

 

 

 

It was Sam.

ETA: Double checked.  For science. 

ETA2: Also for science.... I think Dean's hair IS longer.  My son actually has a similar haircut.  He can go 6-8 weeks and just look a little more shaggy. From a BTS perspective, he probably didn't get it cut for a couple of weeks and they just went a little messy.  But I can buy the 'not a recent haircut' theory.

Edited January 28, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

It is a  bit longer, but not much longer from the beginning of the season. Dean had a razor. He could have used it to trim  up because it helped him feel more normal. . A little off the sides and back when he was first imprisoned so seems right length for 2 months later. Sam must of had a razor to because he would have a thicker beard.

What really bugs me is why they let Dean, maybe Sam keep a razor. Seems like he could have taken it apart and tried to rewire the door lock to get out.

I don't think the boys were being monitored because if they were they would have seen Dean scratching marks in the Wall. Seems like they   would have shut that down pretty  fast if they were serious about getting him to break via isolation. They would want to know how he did it. They would probably ransack the cell for sharp objects that could grind into cement.

Edited January 28, 2017 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

If you're trying to drive a person insane in isolation, the last thing you're going to do is allow them objects they can kill themselves with.  

[catrox14]

They had juice boxes with little straws, plastic sporks, and beds made with metal bolts. What kind of shoddy outfit is that camp!

[DittyDotDot]

Seriously, worst soldiers ever!

[ZennyKenny]

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe John put a spell on Dean's hair when he was young so he wouldn't have to waste time and money on haircuts (but Sam found a way to break it for himself).  

Get to it, fanfic writers!

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Seriously, worst soldiers ever!

No, that would be the guards arond the CTU on 24.  How MANY TIMES did the perimeter get breached?  I'd put these guys as better than the CTU guards and your average Storm Trooper but worse than many.

[bethy]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

It was Sam.

ETA: Double checked.  For science.

OK. Thanks for double checking. For science. 

[ZennyKenny]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

And about those COSMIC consequences.  It occurred to me, it wasn't "kill me (Billie) and it has consequences".  It was "break a deal".  And there was blood involved. We know blood magic is powerful mojo.  But we didn't see Billie spill her vessel's blood.  They just cut their hand.  So.. how BIG could the consequences really be?  They're just two humans who made a blood pack with a Reaper.  This is gonna be revisited, I think.  But... is it possible that Billie was just tricking them?  They are so used to deals being big problems.  But ultimately she had to have one of them KILL themselves.  She couldn't do it.  So, why not dangle a "cosmic consequence" threat?  The Winchesters weren't going to die anytime soon in those prison cells.   Billie could have been impatient.  She's been gunning for them for nearly two years.  I'm just saying, the words (cosmic consequences) were thrown out -- so they SHOULD mean something -- but they could also have been an empty threat in a ploy by Billie to reap one of the Winchesters.  

Kinda got me thinking. I know that technically Cas murdered Billie to save the Winchesters, but neither Sam nor Dean were responsible for that. Therefore they didn't break the deal. So there really shouldn't be any cosmic consequences at all.

[Zanne]

17 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think each was willing to be sacrificed rather than being left behind; but honestly, wouldn't you think after all this time that Sam would understand that there's *no way* Dean would willingly let Sam die instead of him?  So...maybe they would fake rock/paper/scissors.  But I think it's more likely one or the other would have done an end run around it, like Sam going to Chuck behind Dean's back and agreeing to take on the Mark.   But I also think Dean might just challenge him, as in: "It was my plan.  I'm the one who thought of it, and who made the deal.  I'm ready to die.  You have to honor my decision," as a callback to Dean not honoring Sam's choice with Gadreel.  

 

I don't think there would have been any discussion at all. Mary was going to shoot herself in the head to complete the deal, so whoever accepted it had to kill themselves. Dean just would've said, "See ya later," and shot himself before Sam could say or do anything.

[ahrtee]

24 minutes ago, Zanne said:

I don't think there would have been any discussion at all. Mary was going to shoot herself in the head to complete the deal, so whoever accepted it had to kill themselves. Dean just would've said, "See ya later," and shot himself before Sam could say or do anything.

I think (or hope!) Dean would have wanted to say goodbye, and the idea of coldly killing himself in front of Mary would have at least made him hesitate, probably long enough for Sam or Cas to stop him.  They certainly know him well enough to expect something like that.   I also hope that, after all this time and all the fights they'd had, that he would have given Sam the respect of talking to him first, even if he was just going to explain *why* he had to be the one.   I think the only reason Mary got so far, holding the gun to her head with no one tackling her, was that Billie was keeping the boys immobile.  She really wanted Mary dead, anyway, because she had come back when she wasn't supposed to.  I don't think she cared which of the boys died, so she would have let them choose.  

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

No, that would be the guards arond the CTU on 24.  How MANY TIMES did the perimeter get breached?  I'd put these guys as better than the CTU guards and your average Storm Trooper but worse than many.

LOL I thought about them too.

[rue721]

Honestly, I was pretty bored.

It seemed dry. I guess because the characters weren't interacting that much, and we weren't introduced to any interesting new characters, and the whole episode was way too focused on the (kind of nonsensical) logistics of getting Sam and Dean out of a very sparsely populated prison.

Upside was that the forest was really pretty.

On 1/27/2017 at 9:01 PM, DittyDotDot said:

If they were being monitored, wouldn't have the monitorees have noticed them talking and making that deal with Billie too? It was clearly shown both of them cut their hands to make that bargain, even if Billie wasn't visible, I'd think that would be suspicious behavior I'd go check out. And, wouldn't someone have noticed them dead before the guy with the food did? 

Seriously, worst soldiers ever!!! 

I don't understand why they would care about someone monitoring them praying or making deals with God/Billie anyway. Wouldn't it be more remarkable if people trapped in a terrifying prison DIDN'T pray or try to make a deal with God?

Maybe they didn't draw Billie to them, maybe she went to THEM with the escape plan? Maybe she figured that since they were in dire straits, they might accept a deal from her? (Maybe they explained more about how the deal was broached in the episode, but I don't remember it...?).

In any case, I do buy the theory that they couldn't lead Cas to them. They have those notches on their ribs, and they had no idea about their location. Cas might have heard them or felt their despair or something, but he couldn't necessarily find them based on that.

On 1/27/2017 at 9:51 PM, ahrtee said:

And honestly, I don't remember anyone ever calling Sam (or Dean) a survivalist. Survivors, yes; but that's a whole different story.  Remember, Sam always  hated Dad's training (and as far as I can tell, didn't keep up with the parts he didn't like after he left) so all his survival skills would be based on childhood memories and what he picked up/honed in the last 12 years, which didn't include much wilderness training.   (If he really did have good survivalist skills, he wouldn't have made such rookie tracking mistakes...)

Yeah, that makes sense.

Also, wasn't it Bobby who taught them the outdoorsy stuff, not John? At one point they were saying that he thought them everything they knew about (literal, recreational) hunting, right?

Even though the Bobby-as-replacement-father thing irritates the hell out of me, I can actually see John not being that outdoorsy.

Although the thing of not using the river to mask their trail and just sort of traipsing around in the mud and leaving big Moose footprints behind did seem needlessly dumb. I am about the least outdoorsy person in the universe, and even I have heard "wade in the water, children" and know enough not to do THAT. But I guess they were purposefully trying to create a trail...?

On 1/27/2017 at 10:04 PM, catrox14 said:

Oh I agree that he didn't look at them. I think they would just put the meal and whatever other basics are needed in the slot and say nothing. The total isolation went out the window, though, every time he yelled "Chow time!". That's why I think he liked them because he was more or less saying hello. Why and how did Dean get a razor? Head canon is Corp. Chow Time.

I dunno, that's pretty minimal contact. Hearing a disembodied voice yell "chow time!" a few times a day doesn't really seem like meaningful interaction.

That said, Chow Time Guy probably had the most charisma and personality out of any of the non-Winchester or Cas/Crowley characters in this whole episode. So maybe that "interaction" was more meaningful than it would seem lol.

22 hours ago, Binns said:

My gripe is with the plan to get out. It doesn't make sense that Dean would be that worked up about isolation. Hell, John probably locked those boys in coffins and forced them to survive long periods of isolation. Plus, lol at ANYTHING being worse than Hell for either boy.

I dunno, I think solitary confinement is pretty bad. Long periods of it is considered torture for a reason.

Anyway, I hope that John didn't lock them in coffins! On a practical level, wouldn't that be more likely to induce a phobia, rather than actually toughen them up at all?

22 hours ago, SueB said:

But really, you have to wonder who has it worse?  The person who dies or the person who carries on?  I could almost see Sam letting Dean be the one to die because he knows that.  His ability to compartmentalize might get him to that conclusion faster.  IDK.  I could see Dean figuring that out too.  But it's not like they are going to Heaven.  Maybe Dean might have a chance at calling on Amara to get Sam back out of the empty.  Then again, God took a shine to Sam ... he'd probably try to call in a favor.  Conundrum.  I'm back to rock, paper, scissors. 

Considering that the last time one of them was supposed to reap the other, Dean ended up murdering Death instead, I really doubt that either of them truly believed that one of them would die as a result of this deal. They always find a loophole.

IMO Dean probably figured that he would just kill himself, and refused to think about it further, and Sam probably figured they'd find a way out like they always do.

Anyway, I think the person who dies has it worse. Because they're dead, and totally powerless. Even in Heaven everyone is totally powerless. The living person still has his agency.

But also, I think that Sam cares about his agency more than Dean. So I think that being the one left behind would be harder on Dean than on Sam, because keeping his agency would be of less comfort to him.

21 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Well, he went through a whole year in Purgatory and his hair stayed the same length without looking ragged or hacked off, even though Cas managed to grow a beard.  Maybe John put a spell on Dean's hair when he was young so he wouldn't have to waste time and money on haircuts (but Sam found a way to break it for himself).  

This is hilarious. I would love it if John had been like, ENOUGH WITH THE HAIRCUTS and just decided to spell their heads for once and for all.

In that context, Sam [breaking the spell] and growing his hair would be an even bigger rebellion than I had thought! ;)

10 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Like Sam, I enjoy books and have a good imagination.  I have always thought I would do well in solitary myself if necessary because I could make up stories and rewatch whole movies in my head.  I think Sam is capable of entertaining himself for the rest of his life for that reason.  Dean?  I can buy he would be less comfortable in solitary because he seems less intellectually inclined, but no.  Six weeks of rest wouldn't break him.

I'm pretty imaginative, too. But wouldn't that be a bad thing, for someone stuck in solitary long-term?

Imagination would be pretty likely to transform into delusion in that situation, I think.

10 hours ago, SueB said:

- "3 hots and a cot" - Dean himself has said that's not a bad life.   I'm telling ya, the "worse than hell" was a cover by the boys to justify why they made the deal with Billie for Cas and Mary's sake.  And Dean called Billie because 6 weeks was enough time to know they had to rescue themselves.

That was a long time ago, though. He's changed, his standards have changed...if nothing else, I don't think that he would be so OK with living in an authoritarian environment like that anymore. He's used to being in charge now.

Also, any time the guys have been in prison before, they've been living more-or-less their regular life (albeit out of a cell instead of a car) and interacting with plenty of people. Dean and Sam are also both able to get themselves into and out of regular prisons basically at will. This is a very different scenario.

7 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

If you're trying to drive a person insane in isolation, the last thing you're going to do is allow them objects they can kill themselves with.  

Yeah, or even objects they can hurt themselves with at all! I mean, imprisoned, desperate people can get pretty destructive just with their own poop, you don't want to give them the ability to smear or spit or whatever their blood everywhere, too.

This situation kind of reminds me of when Grandpa Campbell trapped them in those cells back when Sam was Soulless, and Sam bit into his artery so he could use his blood to make a devil's trap. Too bad they made Soulless Sam more resourceful than regular Sam and Dean years later, lol.

Edited January 29, 2017 by rue721
typos, so many typos!

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

Although the thing of not using the river to mask their trail and just sort of traipsing around in the mud and leaving big Moose footprints behind did seem needlessly dumb. I am about the least outdoorsy person in the universe, and even I have heard "wade in the water, children" and know enough not to do THAT. But I guess they were purposefully trying to create a trail...?

I think that was what they were doing. I think at one point Sam purposely looked down at their footprints as if gauging if they were making a good enough impression. The "iffy" part was finding the cabin. I'll have to watch again to see if they actually saw the cottage before they left the stream, or if they were just lucky enough to find it. But either way, I think that once they gave the "warning" their plan from then on was to take the soldiers out in some way or another.

And even though going down stream a ways would seem like a better way to cover their tracks, it could also slow them down, since wading in the water and fighting against it - even going downstream they'd have to fight the water resistance while staying upright - might cause them to lose some of their head start. And unless they got a good distance they might still be visible. So I guess they had to weigh the potential for subterfuge against the gain of speed.

Also if the plan was to take them out, the boys would want the soldiers to stay together - easier to take them all out at once - so, tracks not visible across the stream might cause the soldiers to split up. Then they'd get one group, but that might potentially warn the others when they finally caught up.

So considering that, I think I could see them going the directly across the stream route. It would be the quickest, allowing them to keep their lead. And it would most likely keep the soldiers in one group instead of splitting up: all the better to take them all out at the same time. Looking at it that way, it was the soldiers who were overconfident and careless... if they had been smart, a few of them would've stayed back in case they needed to somehow get backup.

[AwesomO4000]

20 hours ago, ahrtee said:

To me, it means the ability to accept what happened, keep going and even start to move forward.  I'm not saying Sam wasn't terribly damaged or being self-destructive and obsessed.  But even with his bad choices and worse behavior, he actually *was* moving forward instead of being stuck on the need to get Dean back at any cost (well, after the Trickster episode, anyway).  Oh, he certainly tried everything, including trading his own soul and suicide-by-demon, but eventually realized that he couldn't do it, and (with Ruby's help) switched to revenge and trying to save people.  In that way, he was actually following in John's footsteps, with his single-minded drive for revenge and "saving people, hunting things"--the way he coped with losing Mary.  Sam could have stopped hunting and stuck with research, trying to find a spell (or a witch or a demon or some black magic way) to get Dean back, but instead he moved on to the next phase of acceptance/revenge.  Again, definitely not good, but it was something that kept him going and gave him a purpose instead of just stuck in obsession over getting Dean out of hell.

By that definition, I pretty much agree with you. However, depending on the circumstances, I worry for the world. Sam on his own can sometimes make some not so great choices - Dean can too, sometimes, but not as often - and with impending Satan spawn coming up, as much as I love Sam and him being my favorite by a little, I'm not as sure that he would be the best choice left behind to fight that situation. He's great at research and thinking through a strategy, but he's more one to need/want someone to soundboard off his ideas with. Hunting-wise he's used to Dean taking the lead.

But then again, Dean sometimes needs Sam's "we can do this thing... we can" attitude when Dean's in the mood to give up, so there is that. But part of the reason Sam can have that "we can do it" attitude is because he believes in Dean... so on his own, maybe not as optimistic. And so in the end, I think he'd come to the conclusion Dean would be the better choice to save the world - which is likely what he wanted to talk with Dean about - and I think I'd probably have to agree even if in the end Dean would end up not handling the situation as well emotionally.

And I think that's where I was coming from with the mental health angle. Sam might be able to move on eventually, but without Dean, he might not make the best world-saving decisions while he's working through those mental health issues to get to the moving on part... Examples would be season 4, where he drank demon blood, and season 8, where not trying to get Kevin - and oh, yeah a potentially powerful God tablet - away from Crowley was not the smartest idea in the world protecting department.

[SueB]

From SPNHOUS: The look on their faces was in response to Cas doing something that would release "cosmic consequences".  They've been down this road many times and that was the concern. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

22 hours ago, rue721 said:

Even though the Bobby-as-replacement-father thing irritates the hell out of me, I can actually see John not being that outdoorsy.

But wasn't John a marine in the Vietnam war?  If anyone knows about survival tactics, I think it was those guys (and marines in general).  Still doesn't explain the footprints in the mud - except as others have speculated, it was to lead the soldiers to them.  Or just total carelessness cause they were in a big hurry.  

On another note - and yes, I'm still weirdly obsessed about their personal hygiene - did they also have LAUNDRY DAY! (Like CHOW TIME!) where they had to hand over their dirty jumpsuits and underwear for clean ones?  Cause 8 weeks* in the same ones....kinda gross.

*my personal theory.

[MysteryGuest]

53 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

On another note - and yes, I'm still weirdly obsessed about their personal hygiene - did they also have LAUNDRY DAY! (Like CHOW TIME!) where they had to hand over their dirty jumpsuits and underwear for clean ones?  Cause 8 weeks* in the same ones....kinda gross.

I'm going to assume they gave them clean clothes to wear at some point, not necessarily every day.  If they bothered to give them an electric razor, then they must have given them the basic hygiene needs...toothpaste, soap, etc.  They didn't look unclean while in their cells.  I do wonder how Sam managed to wash his hair in that tiny little sink though.  Dean's would be much easier to keep clean.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But wasn't John a marine in the Vietnam war?  If anyone knows about survival tactics, I think it was those guys (and marines in general).  Still doesn't explain the footprints in the mud - except as others have speculated, it was to lead the soldiers to them.  Or just total carelessness cause they were in a big hurry.  

On another note - and yes, I'm still weirdly obsessed about their personal hygiene - did they also have LAUNDRY DAY! (Like CHOW TIME!) where they had to hand over their dirty jumpsuits and underwear for clean ones?  Cause 8 weeks* in the same ones....kinda gross.

*my personal theory.

1

I support this obsession.  And I like all the options people have come up with.

[rue721]

Maybe they had to hand wash their clothes? In the sink or in a bucket or something?

If they didn't get clean clothes or a laundry service very often, they could at least have done that in the meantime. It's not really a big deal to handwash a couple pieces of clothing a day and it's not like they had anything else to do.

Also, I doubt their clothes would really get that dirty anyway, since they had to sit inside all the time. Even their food wasn't that messy. And they were alone, so aside from personal finickiness, there was no reason to be THAT careful with their hygiene. It's not like anyone else could smell them.

I dunno, just to pull a guess out of my ass, I would figure on a shower maybe once a week, and a chance to exchange their dirty clothes for clean ones (through the chow time slot?) maybe once a month. But on the other hand, maybe all they would ever get would be catbaths and handwashed laundry done within their cells, because that's really all that's necessary to keep a person from actually getting sick from poor hygiene, and it would be easiest on the guards.

[Boopsahoy]

Quote

Although the thing of not using the river to mask their trail and just sort of traipsing around in the mud and leaving big Moose footprints behind did seem needlessly dumb. I am about the least outdoorsy person in the universe, and even I have heard "wade in the water, children" and know enough not to do THAT. But I guess they were purposefully trying to create a trail...?

I believe they were leading them to a trap.  At first I was all oh no that's so dumb leaving that footprint but then Dean says this will do and I realized it was a setup-also why they left the light on in the cabin.

[DittyDotDot]

As someone else pointed out up thread, this episode was a shout-out to the Rambo movie First Blood. So, yes, from the moment they escaped, the plan was to draw the soldiers to them so they could disarm them non-lethally.  The footprints, taunting them over the radio, lighting the lantern in the cabin; all of it was meant to purposely leave a trail so when they made their stand, they would be in control of the situation. 

ETA: It being a movie homage makes sense it was their 250th episode, and that Dabb wrote it. Usually showrunners on this show only write the premiers and finales, but since this was a milestone and all... .

Edited January 30, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[goldy]

Saw that picture on twitter and thought it was cute:

 

[ahrtee]

15 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

On another note - and yes, I'm still weirdly obsessed about their personal hygiene - did they also have LAUNDRY DAY! (Like CHOW TIME!) where they had to hand over their dirty jumpsuits and underwear for clean ones?  Cause 8 weeks* in the same ones....kinda gross.

My thoughts were they were given a stack of supplies when they arrived, as in prison:  not only the jumpsuit and underwear, but one roll of TP, a towel, a razor, hairbrush/comb, toothbrush and paste, soap, deodorant and shampoo.  In my headcanon, their welcome speech would have been:

"WHEN YOU NEED REPLACEMENTS FOR ANY OF THESE ITEMS, PLACE THE EMPTY ONES ON YOUR FOOD TRAY AND THEY WILL BE REPLACED AT THE NEXT MEAL.  IF YOU REQUEST REPLACEMENTS TOO OFTEN YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE NEW ONES TILL WE DEEM IT APPROPRIATE. YOU WILL RECEIVE CLEAN CLOTHING AT  REGULAR INTERVALS.  WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT, PLACE YOUR OLD SOILED CLOTHING THROUGH THE SLOT.  DO NOT ASK FOR ANY OTHER ITEMS. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SPEAK TO THE GUARD...HE WILL NOT ANSWER.  HAVE A GOOD DAY!"  (well, that last part was mine...)  

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My thoughts were they were given a stack of supplies when they arrived, as in prison:  not only the jumpsuit and underwear, but one roll of TP, a towel, a razor, hairbrush/comb, toothbrush and paste, soap, deodorant and shampoo.  In my headcanon, their welcome speech would have been:

"WHEN YOU NEED REPLACEMENTS FOR ANY OF THESE ITEMS, PLACE THE EMPTY ONES ON YOUR FOOD TRAY AND THEY WILL BE REPLACED AT THE NEXT MEAL.  IF YOU REQUEST REPLACEMENTS TOO OFTEN YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE NEW ONES TILL WE DEEM IT APPROPRIATE. YOU WILL RECEIVE CLEAN CLOTHING AT  REGULAR INTERVALS.  WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT, PLACE YOUR OLD SOILED CLOTHING THROUGH THE SLOT.  DO NOT ASK FOR ANY OTHER ITEMS. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SPEAK TO THE GUARD...HE WILL NOT ANSWER.  HAVE A GOOD DAY!"  (well, that last part was mine...)  

Well. That would make sense. But these are the Keystone Kops version of a black site prison.

And now I'm kinda irked that we didn't get a scene of the boys changing from their clothes to the prison garb. I mean just one shirtless scene each, Dabb. WTF

[FlickChick]

On a totally different subject, I thought about going back and re-watching to see how many minutes each of the boys were in this episode: separately, together, and with/without dialogue. If I were to guess, the dialogue would be less than 10 minutes. Again, they didn't have to study too hard. :)

[DeeDee79]

On 1/27/2017 at 10:05 PM, ahrtee said:

Maybe John put a spell on Dean's hair when he was young so he wouldn't have to waste time and money on haircuts (but Sam found a way to break it for himself).  

This is hilarious!

[DeeDee79]

On the one hand I'm relieved that Mr. Ketch tied up the loose ends so Sam and Dean won't be looking over their shoulders for the government to take retribution. On the other hand I wanted to know what the deal was with the secret service agent that was in charge of the mission. It understandable for him to have animosity because he perceives them to be criminals but it seemed personal for him.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

On the one hand I'm relieved that Mr. Ketch tied up the loose ends so Sam and Dean won't be looking over their shoulders for the government to take retribution. On the other hand I wanted to know what the deal was with the secret service agent that was in charge of the mission. It understandable for him to have animosity because he perceives them to be criminals but it seemed personal for him.

I thought it was weird he was even at the detention center. Shouldn't he have went back to his actual job of Presidential security after he delivered them to the black site? The whole setup was really contrived if you ask me.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought it was weird he was even at the detention center. Shouldn't he have went back to his actual job of Presidential security after he delivered them to the black site? The whole setup was really contrived if you ask me.

Considering that it seemed to be a military site and a man that was supposedly an expert terrorist interrogator they should have had all the personnel needed without him. All he contributed was bitterness and skepticism at the way the imprisonment was handled. I did enjoy seeing him caught in the bear trap :)

[Myrelle]

Just re-watched this one along with last week's episode. They both seem to be cut from the same cloth, IMO. Just okay to me mainly because of the many plot holes that have already been pointed out, but this episode did have some nice BadassDean and LeaderDean moments. I loved the lean, mean, Purgatory look/feel of him as they lead the soldiers through the woods. The Cool Hand Luke quote was my favorite of the episode.

Mary and Cas did not do it at all for me. Neither did the line about solitary being worse than hell for Dean, but typical of Dabb since he became showrunner. Glad Billie was offed. She was the least intimidating reaper that this show has ever tried to foist off on us. Cas' speech was good except for the "You're welcome." part especially since we now know that they're going to make something out of the "cosmic consequences" part of the blood deal.

And "We're the guys who save the world." was yet another line that this episode could have easily done without, IMO. So cheesy, but again, not unexpected considering the writer. 

So we start the second half with mediocrity, and I fear that this is the best that it will get under Dabb(going by these last two seasons-I feel that he took over right after the S11 premiere, in truth); but at least the Ackting was allowed to shine a bit in this one, and sadly, that's all that I feel I can presently ever hope for from this show because the writing/showrunning has never been worse, IMO.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Myrelle

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So we start the second half with mediocrity, and I fear that this is the best that it will get under Dabb

I tried. I totally went against my own nature and really, really tried to be positive and optimistic this season, but I agree, these two episodes did not inspire. Nor do they bode well. My only shred of optimism is that these were filmed before the show took a break. I'm still hoping they took a moment to assess during their break and things will improve going forward. Not expecting, just hoping at this point.

Lesson here: optimism only leads to more heartache! ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I rewatched this a couple nights ago.  I wanted to rewatch the last three eps, but I started late and only made it through this one before bedtime.  :) (Sucks to have to get up early and go to work.)

Anyway, some random thoughts/observations going through a second time:

• About the egg and whether or not Lucifer was put in it or it was used to direct him to Hell - I'm still not sure, but there was a clip of Crowley saying something to the effect of that they were going to get Lucifer out of Jeff and "into that?" - as he was pointing at the egg.  So, that made me think that the egg was a holding container of some sort.  Like a ghost trap used in Ghostbusters.  
• If Jeff didn't remember anything from the past 3 days (per the SS guy) how did the SS/CIA account for what he did during that time?  Didn't he give a speech?  At the very least he interacted with his staff.  What about the guys who drove him to the motel?  Were their memories wiped also?  I would think they'd look into that too, instead of just automatically locking Sam and Dean away in a Black site.  I know others pointed out a lot of plot holes, (most recently @Myrelle above, and probably others, but I'm too lazy to look back upthread that far.)  That was never further addressed, and it just really bothers me.
• Why were the boys so closed mouthed during their imprisonment?  They didn't seem to have any trouble spelling it all out at the end.  And I don't recall that they've had so much trouble cluing law enforcement in in the past.  Couldn't they have negotiated their release a little better?  
• So much for constitutional rights, btw.
• The way Sam jerked when they slammed the cell door made me jerk too.  Dean did not jerk.
• Love Wally calling Mick, "Mike".   I just really liked Wally.  Can you tell?  I think I've said that a time or two, but I'm not sure...;)
• Mary's "we" when talking to/blaming Cas (as in "How could we let this happen.") just really bugs me.  Not that I blame Cas.  He did what Sam and Dean told him to do.  But it's not Mary's place to hover over her adult children (as she's not been doing anyway) either.  
• How convenient that there was one, lone, loose screw that hadn't been painted over like the rest.  
• Sam made faces at the food.  Dean didn't.  I didn't think it looked too bad, personally.  Except for the bologna one.
• Crowley quoted Mr. T.  Lol.
• I liked the continuity with Alicia (Asa's kid) calling Dean for help.
• So when Cas couldn't find the vamp in Missouri, why didn't he call another hunter?  Does he not know any other hunters?  At all?  Contacts on Dean's phone?  
• Really weak point (as others pointed out) was: how did they kill themselves/die?  It was never explained.  Just handwaved away.
• Why the CIA agent bother turning off the lights when the left the morgue when he knew the pathologist would be right back?  It's a government facility - I seriously doubt they are concerned with saving energy.  It just struck me as odd.  And yes, I know it was probably to make the boy's revival more intense, but I think it would have worked just as well with the lights on.
• I'm rather surprised they got a cell signal at all outside the building.  As a black site, I would have thought they'd have them blocked for x number of miles surrounding the site.  Ditto for the satellite imagery.  I'm sure there is a way to block that, because you know - we really don't want Russia and China spying on our black ops sites either.  Unless the boys were far enough away by then.
• Dean made the footprint in the mud.  Yes, I double and triple-checked.  Just saying.  Cause I don't think it was on purpose or even particularly careless.  It just was.  
• The cabin was an improvisation.  Dean's "damn it" made that clear.  Before then, I think they just wanted to get away.  But once they realized they couldn't out run the soldiers, they went to Plan B.  Very clever of them.  And I liked seeing them being clever like that.  They knew how many soldiers were following them when they stopped and Sam said they were after them so they knew how many traps they had to make and how many they had to take out.  Again, it was all very clever and so many times they've been stupid and not really had a plan, so this was very nice to see.
• Why was Sam clicking the clip in place?  Wouldn't/shouldn't it have already been in place?  Gun's not really any good without it.
• Mr. Ketch's use of "survivors" to describe the soldiers left behind should have thrown a huge red flag for the boys to make sure nothing else happened after Sam said they'd take care of it.  Now I'm disappointed in the boys that they didn't follow up properly.

[MysteryGuest]

I just watched this episode again tonight, and while there certainly were some holes or unanswered questions, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Dean and Sam in survivor mode.  As others have pointed out, so often the writers make one of them screw up to give the bad guy/monster the upper hand, at least temporarily.  In this episode, they were kickass from the moment they got out until Cas found them.  It was a joy to watch.  There have been a few episodes like this...Night Shifter comes to mind right away, but not nearly enough for my taste.  I wish they'd write more episodes like this.  The boys weren't super human, but they absolutely were clever and experienced, which they would be after living the life they have.  I want more of this!!

[catrox14]

Jeez, this episode is just so filled with stupid things.

I mean yes the boys doing great escape things was entertaining but gods. So much stupid. I will never, ever, ever believe that Dean just gave up after 6 weeks when he was keeping count. I just won't. Nope. Not after he was willing to be sent to nowheresville when he had the Mark. I'll never believe he thought that it was worse than Hell. NOPE NOPE NOPE

Nor that 6 weeks was enough for him to make a deal with Billie.

NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE.

 

ETA: Misha was wonderful in the scene after he kills Billie. Broke my heart.

Edited June 23, 2017 by catrox14

[Diane]

Watching again tonight and when the guard finds Sam dead he tells his superiors that he did CPR, but Sam is on his side the same position that they showed when looking through the food door. Really CPR on his side, come on we are better than this.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Diane

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, Diane said:

Watching again tonight and when the guard finds Sam dead he tells his superiors that he did CPR, but Sam is ion his side the same position that they showed when looking through the food door. Really CPR on his side, come on we are better than this.

Seriously, worst. soldiers. ever! ;)

[gonzosgirrl]

I personally never thought that Dean saying the isolation was worse than Hell was anything more than hyperbole. Like saying a paper cut is the  worst pain evah! He was making the point to Cas and Mary that they had to get out of there, whatever it took, and it was clear after six weeks that nobody was coming for them. 

I'm also sure that while they probably believed they'd find a way out of or back from the deal with Billie, but either would've been okay with the sacrifice for the other to go on fighting. I believe Dean intended for it to be him though. 

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I personally never thought that Dean saying the isolation was worse than Hell was anything more than hyperbole. Like saying a paper cut is the  worst pain evah! He was making the point to Cas and Mary that they had to get out of there, whatever it took, and it was clear after six weeks that nobody was coming for them. 

I'm also sure that while they probably believed they'd find a way out of or back from the deal with Billie, but either would've been okay with the sacrifice for the other to go on fighting. I believe Dean intended for it to be him though. 

Hyperbole or not on Dean's part, it has the nasty side-effect of once more minimizing Dean's Hell experience. It's irksome at best, for this viewer.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Hyperbole or not on Dean's part, it has the nasty side-effect of once more minimizing Dean's Hell experience. It's irksome at best, for this viewer.

I get that, totally. Believe me, nobody is more pissed off about the show's treatment of Dean's time downstairs than I am, but for whatever reason, this didn't bug me that way. IMO, he was trying to explain this possibly-lethal choice of theirs to their mother and BFF, and this was the kind of stakes he had to make them see.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I get that, totally. Believe me, nobody is more pissed off about the show's treatment of Dean's time downstairs than I am, but for whatever reason, this didn't bug me that way. IMO, he was trying to explain this possibly-lethal choice of theirs to their mother and BFF, and this was the kind of stakes he had to make them see.

It still doesn't work for me because this is Cas, who actually pulled Dean out of Hell and knows pretty well what he went through. I can see him saying it for Mary's sake but even then....not so much.

[bettername2come]

I liked the doctor. He didn't deserve to die! Or get locked in a morgue drawer. I like watching Sam and Dean take out SWAT teams. "We're not trapped out here with you. You're trapped out here with us." I like that Sam was the one to say "We're the guys who save the world." That's often more of a Dean-style badass boast, nice to hear it from Sam for once. Poor Billie. I'm gonna miss her. She was the nicest person to ever want dead Winchesters. Love Misha's acting after Cas kills her. I almost teared up at "This sad, doomed little world needs every last Winchester it can get." Wait, could Sam and Dean not have prayed to Castiel? I get if they couldn't have told him where they were since they didn't know, but seriously, they couldn't have told him what was up? Nice to see some Cas and Mary interaction. I hate the "I've been to hell, this was worse."

You know what? I want the series to end with Sam and Dean getting a Presidential pardon. They just have to convince the President that they actually saved his life and BOOM! they're set. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Wait, could Sam and Dean not have prayed to Castiel? I get if they couldn't have told him where they were since they didn't know, but seriously, they couldn't have told him what was up?

One would think praying to Castiel would've been the first thing they did, but apparently making a deal with Billie was the only option available to them.

11 hours ago, bettername2come said:

You know what? I want the series to end with Sam and Dean getting a Presidential pardon. They just have to convince the President that they actually saved his life and BOOM! they're set. 

Hee!

[Katy M]

15 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I hate the "I've been to hell, this was worse."

I understand and you're probably right that it wasn't worse. But, they have done studies on isolation and isolation is used as a form of torture.  There was a prisoner back in the '60s that was in isolation and he went insane.  Something about a ball and a spider web.

15 hours ago, bettername2come said:

You know what? I want the series to end with Sam and Dean getting a Presidential pardon. They just have to convince the President that they actually saved his life and BOOM! they're set. 

Interesting concept.  I'll take it a step further and everybody finds out about everything.  All the people who have thought Sam and Dean were killers, or just weird, would find out the truth.  We'll get some reaction shots.