Crime Scene - General Discussion

[IndianPaintbrush]

Michelle McNamara may have contributed to an increase in web sleuthing. But she would never have used or endorsed these kinds of tactics. She worked in conjunction with actual detectives on the Golden State Killer case. She did her research and didn't throw out wild accusations/conspiracy theories with zero evidence. She certainly wouldn't have cyber-bullied an innocent person. 

Like with most things, there are good and bad web sleuths out there.

[kieyra]

4 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

The big reveal at the end that the maintenance man found the hatch open and closed it made me roll my eyes. They kept trying to make it seem like this huge mystery, "why was the hatch closed?! The police found it closed!" I said right from the start "the police didn't find the body, duh." This miniseries was okay but they really tried to drag out some details for suspense when the answers were obvious.

Triggered!

I’m a long time true crime follower, but there are certain cases where you can see that a lot of people have bought into a certain narrative and will never, ever look back. If I had a dime for every time I’ve typed “no, the tank wasn’t closed, and no the tank was not inaccessible, there was a ladder ...” to someone on Reddit or elsewhere ... sigh.  (Did they frame it as a reveal at the end? Because I thought the maint worker says pretty early on that it was open, but they blip past it pretty quick, and it might have been with subtitles (I can’t remember if he was speaking Spanish or not.) I did not watch the whole thing/didn’t see the end. (But I already knew the hatch was open, so maybe I’m misremembering seeing him say it early in the doc.)

I think people get spooked, enjoy feeling spooked, and then the brain functions cut out. 

I made it though about half the doc, until they started to lean into the YouTuber stuff. (As you can see, I’m way too familiar with those theories.) I’m glad it sounds like they admitted that it was most likely not a murderer or a ghost. Edit: actually, I remembered the exact moment I turned it off: the “LAM ELISA”/tuberculosis stuff. I can’t. Not in 2021.

I actually kind of liked the hotel manager. She was pretty straightforward and realistic about the hotel and the events. (And I agree with both the “Rhea Seahorn” and “Fargo character” comparisons). She and the surprisingly not-terrible voiceovers of Elisa’s journal were the only reason I made it through more than one episode.

[sainte-chapelle]

18 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I don't know anything about this part, but it does not, in my opinion, take away from the service they did provide. 

I feel bad for him regardless of his imagery/persona/creative whatever-you-call-it. If they'd framed Stephen King (or, you know, someone who people may find to be "dark"), I'd feel bad for him too! Everyone apologize to Morbid!

I can't denigrate all so-called "web sleuths," considering that there have been instances of wrongfully convicted people being helped, if not fully exonerated, because of ordinary people with an interest in a case. It isn't the same as catching the real perpetrators, obviously, but it's definitely a positive contribution from people with an interest in true crime.

Yes, everyone needs to apologize to Morbid. It is a performance  FFS!  The funny thing is it is the web sleuths who were terrible people. He did nothing wrong. He is actually Sofia Vergara’s cousin. 
I recently watched a documentary and the filmmaker stated he went out of his way to find more ‘reputable’ web sleuths. Some of them included retired detectives who actually had many valid observations. I am very interested in true crime and read forums now and again but I would never break into crime scenes or harass ‘suspects’. These people are unapologetically awful and I also almost turned it off after the TB and ‘she is a spy’ argument.

Edited February 17, 2021 by sainte-chapelle

[kieyra]

I won’t lie, I kind of need a Cecil Hotel-inspired Fargo season now, starring Rhea Seehorn. 

[Quilt Fairy]

5 hours ago, kieyra said:

I won’t lie, I kind of need a Cecil Hotel-inspired Fargo season now, starring Rhea Seehorn. 

Well, she may be available since Better Call Saul is in it's last season.

[Peace 47]

On 2/15/2021 at 11:04 AM, bilgistic said:

OK, bipolar disorder doesn't typically cause hallucinations in and of itself. It's a mood disorder characterized by alternate depressive and manic episodes wherein the latter, one may be on a "high" for several days, engaging in highly excitable, irritable or even risky behavior, sometimes avoiding sleep for days until one "crashes". Sleep deprivation can cause hallucinations.

I think that they mentioned in the documentary (and it’s been a few days since I watched it) that Elisa was on an anti-psychotic medication (that she had obviously stopped taking).  I think that they also mentioned that she had the more severe kind of bipolar (Bipolar I), So her form of bipolar actually may have brought about psychosis not just because of sleep deprivation induced by mania, but as a function of how the disease itself affected her (as I understand some bipolar psychosis is thought to have hormonal, genetic or chemical links beyond just sleep deprivation, although I guess it’s not fully understood).

But certainly understand your larger point that mental illness should not be stigmatized. When she was medicated, Elisa could function very well, it’s just that something triggered her to stop taking it, which is so sad.  Those Tumblr posts that they read at the beginning made me think that she seemed like such a sweet and genuine person.
 

[Grammaeryn]

I thought the big reveal would be that these web sleuths founded QANON. Morbid was doxxed before it was a thing. Poor guy!

This was really a documentary about mental illness and it’s fallout in different parts of society.

[7iron]

I just finished watching this yesterday and feel like I was lied to. First off this wasn't a crime scene, it was a potential crime scene. This leads viewers to believe that there will be definitive solution to the mystery, with someone being charged with murder. While the story is tragic, there was no crime committed. I think the focus of the story is how someone's life was ruined by websleuths run amok. 

[TV Glotzer]

This was such manipulative filmmaking, taking what should be a twenty-minute Dateline segment and stretching it out to four hours. Elisa’s erratic behavior at the hotel and tv show taping, and the abundant meds recovered from her room were all salient facts that the police knew from the beginning. And I’m sure the family told them upfront about her history of mental illness when they arrived in LA a few days later.  All this makes the “infamous” elevator video a whole lot less mysterious. So what we have is a cautionary tale about web sleuths, and not a crime scene story at all, as the title indicates, or even an interesting history about the creepy hotel which is how this show is marketed. The hotel itself had almost no relevance at all to her death. The whole thing is infuriating. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by TV Glotzer

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I've only watched two episodes so far but I can tell they were really stretching to make this longer. If they had cut out the numerous shots of the outside of the hotel and they hadn't replayed the elevator video a zillion times, that alone would have cut the run time significantly. And did we really need time wasted on artsy shots like a cup of coffee on a cop's desk?

I really disliked the way the episodes were set up. When they said that Elisa's belongings had already been packed up and put into storage, they just casually mentioned that she had prescription medication but didn't say what it was for, drawing out that drama. In the first episode, the hotel manager said that Elisa checked into a room with bunk beds so I assumed she had shared the room with at least one other person but there was no mention that she changed rooms to a single until the middle of the second episode. In the first episode, the police said they sent 18 detectives to the hotel but it wasn't until later that they said they realized the hotel had surveillance cameras. Isn't that like the first thing you should check? I just hated how the show was deliberately withholding information.

As soon as one of the talking heads described himself as a YouTuber, I rolled my eyes. I hate that these attention whores were given so much air time. At one point, I was watching a YouTuber who was filming himself while a YouTube video of Elisa Lam played on his screen which was just beyond ridiculous.

I just started the third episode and it disgusted me to see so many of these YouTubers flocking to the hotel. The one who said he'd gone ten times just to walk around and soak in the atmosphere creeped me out. I get that sometimes people feel a connection to someone who they've never met but I think you've crossed a line when you go to the place where a stranger died multiple times just because that's where they died. I did note the irony of one of the YouTubers saying he got in trouble for trying to go to Elisa's room because the hotel now has cameras everywhere. If only they'd had those cameras everywhere when Elisa stayed there, the mystery would have been solved right away.

I'd really like to know why the LAPD decided to release a 4+ minute video when there were only 2.5 minutes where Elisa actually appeared.

The hotel manager felt like a character in a MadTV skit. She was just so intent on cheerfully defending the hotel and painting it in a somewhat positive light, which was odd given all the things she said about the tenants and the deaths. She came off as incredibly fake a few times when she feigned ignorance of certain things.

 

[Razzberry]

On 2/15/2021 at 8:53 PM, DangerousMinds said:

In her care, wasn’t she instrumental in getting the case solved? There’s another documentary on Netflix called “Don’t Fuck with Cats” and those amateur sleuths actually helped solve the case. In Elisa Lama’s case, though, they were not helpful and I agree that far too much time was spent on them here.

McNamara had nothing to do with solving the Golden State Killer case.   At the time of her death no one had a clue who he was.  They were no closer than 40 years ago and had zero leads.  It wasn't until investigators and Paul Holes input the DNA profile into Gedmatch that it was finally solved.

As for poor Lisa Lam, I'm surprised Ron Howard got involved in this. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Razzberry

[TV Diva Queen]

On 2/17/2021 at 7:16 AM, sainte-chapelle said:

Yes, everyone needs to apologize to Morbid. It is a performance  FFS!  The funny thing is it is the web sleuths who were terrible people. He did nothing wrong. He is actually Sofia Vergara’s cousin. 
I recently watched a documentary and the filmmaker stated he went out of his way to find more ‘reputable’ web sleuths. Some of them included retired detectives who actually had many valid observations. I am very interested in true crime and read forums now and again but I would never break into crime scenes or harass ‘suspects’. These people are unapologetically awful and I also almost turned it off after the TB and ‘she is a spy’ argument.

Get out!  When they said his name - I joked to the hubby "wonder if he's related to Sofia"  That poor guy, what happened to him was horrific.  

[Hava]

Quote

Agree with both of these comments about the exploitation by the web sleuths of the whole situation, and how the documentary itself leaned into that exploitation a bit further by dragging it out for so long before exposing them for their ignorance.  I have seen so many people dive off the deep end on Internet conspiracy theories in the past few years (whether it’s fandom, politics, crime, whatever), and it astounds me at the complete lack of critical thinking skills.  When they were talking about the TB conspiracy, I was thinking, “This sounds so crazy, but do the people watching this on Netflix understand that it is crazy, or are they getting caught up in the story?”  Could the show have taken more a point of view on the craziness?

I couldn't agree more. The series paid too much time on these people. Do we even know if these "web sleuths" had prominent followings or was the series giving a platform to obscure Youtubers who no one would have heard of if not for this series? I don't think the last episode discrediting these people justifies the amount of time they were given in the first three episodes, especially when the series itself did not have a clear viewpoint that these "web sleuths" were dangerous and irresponsible. 

I also agree with other posters who felt that the series was dragged out. It is obvious that the police knew about Elisa's mental health condition from the very beginning--the prescriptions with her stuff, the incident at the tv show taping, the incident with her roommates, and likely conversations with her family. The series withheld this information until the last episode in order to prolong a mystery that didn't exist. I wish the series had, with the blessing of Elisa's family, explored her life and her condition instead. 

[truthaboutluv]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:05 PM, MerBearStare said:

I did not care for the "web sleuths" 😒 and "youtubers" 🙄 at all. Especially the guy with the eerily calm voice who had a friend visit Elisa Lam's grave, film it, and touch the headstone, then cried about it on camera. Like, what?! He just creeped me out.

So it wasn't just me. Maybe he was genuine but sorry, I found myself rolling my eyes so many times when he kept creepily going on about how he just connected with and felt like he knew her. The whole thing felt a little put on to me. 

 

Quote

Given the hotel's awful neighbourhood and sordid reputation, maybe there was just a real dearth of applicants?

This. I hear the argument of why was a mostly inexperienced person given this position but I think a fair question to ask is would someone with solid experience have taken this job? A hotel known for a string of tragedies and a gathering place for the homeless, drug addicts, etc.?

 

Quote

I just figured the management company hired her because she was inexperienced and they could get her for cheap.

Exactly 

 

Quote

I'm not saying there are literal ghosts wandering the hotel stalking people, but I do believe that energy collects in certain places and affects those immersed in it, much the same way heat gets absorbed into a wall and bounces off on people.

I agree with this. To me it's no different than one's intuition or gut, whichever you want to call it, sometimes letting them know a place or a person just doesn't feel right. As you noted, it's not just the many tragedies, e.g. ODs but the level of heinous criminals who walked that place. Richard Ramirez, the Austrian serial killer guy, etc. Like nope, sorry. No good can come from that place or be present in that place. 

 

Quote

I appreciated the time spent on the ridiculousness of the web sleuths if only as warning how these things spiral out of control and the toxicity of operating in a vacuum. 

Yeah this is what I thought was the point of the time spent on them. Not to validate them in any way but to shed a light on the destructiveness of the online true crime fanaticism that has taken off in the last decade or so, thanks to social media. As someone else noted, the last episode essentially dismantled all their little theories one by one and highlighted how ridiculous some of them were. 

 

 

[DangerousMinds]

21 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

So it wasn't just me. Maybe he was genuine but sorry, I found myself rolling my eyes so many times when he kept creepily going on about how he just connected with and felt like he knew her. The whole thing felt a little put on to me. 

 

This. I hear the argument of why was a mostly inexperienced person given this position but I think a fair question to ask is would someone with solid experience have taken this job? A hotel known for a string of tragedies and a gathering place for the homeless, drug addicts, etc.?

 

Exactly 

 

I agree with this. To me it's no different than one's intuition or gut, whichever you want to call it, sometimes letting them know a place or a person just doesn't feel right. As you noted, it's not just the many tragedies, e.g. ODs but the level of heinous criminals who walked that place. Richard Ramirez, the Austrian serial killer guy, etc. Like nope, sorry. No good can come from that place or be present in that place. 

 

Yeah this is what I thought was the point of the time spent on them. Not to validate them in any way but to shed a light on the destructiveness of the online true crime fanaticism that has taken off in the last decade or so, thanks to social media. As someone else noted, the last episode essentially dismantled all their little theories one by one and highlighted how ridiculous some of them were. 

 

 

Who is the Austrian serial killer guy?

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Who is the Austrian serial killer guy?

Not sure what the rule is in the thread about spoilers since people are all watching the episodes at their own pace. So just to err on the side of caution, I'll place this behind spoiler bars. 

Spoiler

In the third episode I believe, they focused a segment on the history of women being murdered at the Cecil and on Skid Row, particularly due to all the drug use and of course prostitution. So then they tell this story about an Austrian "journalist" who came to Downtown LA to do a story on this very issue. 

He apparently completely immersed himself in the area, rode along with some police detectives even as they arrested or rounded up prostitutes and pimps and apparently brought some of those prostitutes to his room at the Cecil to better hear their story. Well that was all bogus. He was apparently a serial killer who he'd been arrested back in his native Austria for years but was eventually released. 

As soon as he was released, women around his neighborhood in Austria suddenly started disappearing. Before the police could find evidence against him, he fled to America and came up with the fake journalist ruse, using it to kill multiple prostitutes. 

 

[marie]

On 2/16/2021 at 7:45 PM, kieyra said:

I actually kind of liked the hotel manager. She was pretty straightforward and realistic about the hotel and the events. (And I agree with both the “Rhea Seahorn” and “Fargo character” comparisons). She and the surprisingly not-terrible voiceovers of Elisa’s journal were the only reason I made it through more than one episode.

lol, same.

I've seen this woman getting so much shit online now (lesson obviously learned from the Morbid sitch, huh?), and I can't help feel like everyone wanted her to respond like a freshman dorm RA and not like a skid row hotel manager. We don't even know if she ever even SAW Elisa personally. So yeah, she's probably not terribly emotional about a stranger who died 7 years ago.

But I think I also just kind of can relate to her defensiveness about the hotel. She's had years of people accusing her, her employees, and the literal building ITSELF of being murder suspects, when they're just people trying to make a living and put out fires like all the rest of us. It kind of makes me happy that it now has official city landmark status, after seeing years of true crime wannabes call for it to be torn down.

[kieyra]

1 minute ago, marie said:

I've seen this woman getting so much shit online now

Good grief.

As a species I think we just weren't ready for social media. 

[snickers]

I rated this "thumbs down" on Netflix!

 

Wish I could have given it a lower rating than that. 

 

On 2/16/2021 at 8:45 PM, kieyra said:

actually, I remembered the exact moment I turned it off: the “LAM ELISA”/tuberculosis stuff. I can’t. Not in 2021.

😄 I wish I had turned it off, but I saw it was only 4 episodes, not like 10 so I thought, "okay, I will finish this"

 

I don't know if the point of this was to highlight the dangers of "web sleuths" or it was supposed to be a legit story about Elisa Lam? I don't remember hearing about the Elisa Lam thing at all back in 2013, so I must have either forgotten, or was just not paying attention. 

 

And I totally agree with the comment that I too was waiting for a reveal that these "sluethers" are now in Q!!!! They have to be in Q now!!!!

They angered me to a level I had not been that bothered by in a TV show in a long time, it's like, the hotel lady is getting hate? What about those idiots???? I mean, first off, the video....anyone who knows anything about individuals with mental illness can see first hand that was someone having a psychotic episode, from the way her head whipped around back and forth to the hand gestures.  Also, for them to say that was someone else's shoe on the video? mmmmkayyy, that was clearly her shoe, those people were seeing what they wanted to see.

 

What i didn't get was, clearly these internet people have no life! And i think that is the common theme with all these people who are getting sucked into the rabbit hole, they have husbands, kids, friends.....but for some reason they are letting these "internet conspiracies" consume their lives...and i just don't understand it.....they need a real hobby!!!! Read a book, write fanfiction, DO SOMETHING!!!

 

I don't know if it a personality thing, I mean my life is not the most exciting right now (but i blame the pandemic for that) but i have never been one to let one thing or person consume my entire existence......

 

I look at a forum like this to be healthy.....we talk about TV......but when you cross the line and start "demanding" to the police for autopsy reports, spouting ridiculousness on your "youtube" channel about how the LAPD is part of a conspiracy.....you have officially crossed into "you have no life, you are a loser, get a real job" realm, at least in my book

 

I personally think these peeps just want to get internet famous, they don't really care about Elisa Lam, or anybody but themselves, and they don't want to work a real job

 

And i had to laugh when it was revealed that the hatch opened vs closed thing was a "miscommunication" thing....as a government worker, miscommunication is a daily thing in our agency.....luckily we don't communicate out the public....but this is something that happens ALL THE TIME, and unfortunately unless you work in that type of environment, believe it not, unless you are "given permission" it is not so easy to fix....there's always the "chain of command" to follow and once something happens, even though you know its not accurate, you can't fix it

 

my motto is, "I only work here, not my paygrade" but as you can see, it is problem now thanks to the "sluethers" who "do their own research"

 

 

 

 

 

[Writing Wrongs]

I agree with the comments about the "web sleuths". What a bunch of pathetic people. They think they can solve a case without actually leaving their houses and just by obsessively watching a video over and over.

I laughed when the guy said he had to check social media to verify what the news was saying about finding her body. 

[archer1267]

Just finished watching this, and Googled Amy Prince (hotel manager). She got the job because a friend's husband was working on the "Stay on Main" development and they needed help. Prince wasn't working at the time and figured why not. She now is an interior designer and sells her homemade jewelry. 

I couldn't help but wonder if many of these male "web sleuths" would have felt the same level of fixation on a missing male. It was kind of disturbing to pick up on the fetishization of a young, cute female by men who read her Tumblr posts and we're convinced that they knew her intimately - although female sleuths felt the same way too. Maybe it's as simple as her writing struck a chord with so many people.

BUT the entitlement of the group was disgusting and I didn't see any regard for Elisa's family.

[Redrum]

I remember being really fascinated with this case when it first occured but... It really seems pretty obvious that this was a maybe suicide/maybe accidental death. Elisa pretty clearly had some mental illness issues in play. 

The Cecil is what they based the hotel in American Horror Story: Hotel on. There's even a reference to this incident. 

[bilgistic]

Quote

 Crime Scene: The Times Square Killer

Quote

In 1970s NYC, the “Torso Killer” preys on women to fulfill his grotesque fantasies while eluding police. A docuseries dive into crime’s darkest places.

https://youtu.be/wYU8-bueneo