S01.E04: B.J. And The A.C.

[xlibris]

All the complaints leveled at the show, fairly or unfairly, this is the one I never get. "People should get over it and stop acting so sad," what? It's basically the Rapture! 9/11 changed the entire fabric of the country even if you didn't know anyone directly affected by the attack. Not only millions disappearing, but not getting any real closure on it? This would be a thousand times worse. 

I think the point is more that everyone grieves in different ways ... except on this show. And there are no better angels. If the show's premise is correct that it wasn't the rapture and these weren't the world's most enlightened 2%, then the self-sacrifice and altruism are conspicuously missing. The writers can tell whatever story they want, but telling us this story, with these people, rings false to a lot of viewers.

[shapeshifter]

Well stated, @xlibris . A few upthread have stated that the behaviors we're seeing would make more sense if less time had passed since the event. But maybe, instead, it doesn't make sense because we're missing the stage right before the GR appeared and started sucking the joy out of every event that tries to heal the broken hearted. There was a passing remark by the hotChief during the first episode that the GR "didn't exist" until a few weeks earlier. It would be helpful for us to see a day in the life of the town right before they existed--even if they aren't the cause of the general bummer attitude that we see, but a symptom of it.

[loki567]

It still doesn't compute for me. "The proper way to grieve," for a massive unknown, most likely, supernatural event? There's a proper way to work through that? What are the five stages of grief for the pseudo-rapture?

 

Honestly, I think people are still nursing hate boners over Lost and are looking for any possible reason to chop this show, THE LEFTOVERS not LOST, down. 

[Guest]

Honestly, I think people are still nursing hate boners over Lost and are looking for any possible reason to chop this show, THE LEFTOVERS not LOST, down.

I never watched a single episode of Lost and have plenty of reasons for hating this lame show, chief among them crappy storytelling.

[Latverian Diplomat]

They're actually not bad kids. The daughter is insufferable though. Having your dad be chief of police probably means everyone knows you and that's legit annoying. But he doesn't seem to be a hard ass parent. He leaves her money and she basically can go out with friends like a normal teen. Constantly with the attitude seems a bit much. And yeah, she's pissed about the mother? Again, there's no tip off to this. Does she know dad cheated? Same thing. I don't have to like characters on tv to watch any given show, but she's just ugh. All the time.

 

 

Misdirected anger is a teenage thing. Giving grief to the parent that's there for you and sentimentalizing the absent parent is a kid thing. I think it's actually a pretty  decent portrayal of a plausible reaction from a teenager. The problem is, that in a show full of adults, who should know better, all acting like immature assholes, a disaffected teenager is just one more thing that's hard to sit through.

 

One thing the chief should have done, given his daughter's age, is actually talk to her about what her mother was there for and how he felt about and that he's not sure what to do about it. Just saying "it's complicated" is an alienating response. Jill has a right to know what's going on; it affects her too. It's also lazy writing, because that kind of conversation is time consuming and meandering and not TV friendly, so let's just skip it, even though real humans have talks like that all the time.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Latverian Diplomat

[seamusk]

One thing the chief should have done, given his daughter's age, is actually talk to her about what her mother was there for and how he felt about and that he's not sure what to do about it. Just saying "it's complicated" is an alienating response. Jill has a right to know what's going on; it affects her too. It's also lazy writing, because that kind of conversation is time consuming and meandering and not TV friendly, so let's just skip it, even though real humans have talks like that all the time.

 

I actually think that the show has done a good job of showing that the Chief just isn't comfortable having that conversation with his daughter.  Presumably because he's still uncomfortable with the whole situation to begin with.  And maybe that's how they wrote it because they didn't want to deal.  I'm not sure.  But I know that I was just like "Just talk to her" myself.  But I sort of get that some people aren't comfortable having those conversations with certain people.  So it's at least believable to me.  I think the main thing I struggle with is that the Chief is so damned troubled right now.  I'm not really sure how he has maintained his job as chief.

[Shermie]

All the complaints leveled at the show, fairly or unfairly, this is the one I never get. "People should get over it and stop acting so sad," what?

 

Since this was directed at my post, I'll bite. I didn't say everyone should get over it and stop acting so sad. I said: "Sure, some people are angry or sad or feeling hopeless. But everyone? Statistically, many people would not have lost a direct family member or friend, so many people should be okay." Which I stand by. Everyone would be freaked out by the Disappearance, but not everyone would have lost a loved one and would feel perpetually sad, three years later. 

 

9/11 was tragic, frightening and unpredictable, but the entire citizenry did not turn into a bunch of self-nihilistic downers, three years later. Not even three weeks later. Yes, there is the unknown factor here, which adds to people's misery, but I still say not everyone will feel that way. And as some pointed out, some people might have had an asshole disappear from their lives, so Oct. 14 is a cause for celebration for them.

[Milaxx]

Sure, some people are angry or sad or feeling hopeless. But everyone? Statistically, many people would not have lost a direct family member or friend, so many people,should be okay. Even those who,lost someone - not everyone is going to perpetually despondent. People go missing in real life too, with no body (or answers) ever found, yet they go on.

The show is trying too hard to be HBO-ish. Oh so pretentious. Start with a long pointless scene about the making of dolls in a factory? Those two minutes could have been better spent on plot progression.

 

I'd like to add to this, what about people who losing loved ones was actually a release? It might be a small percentage, but I do believe there would be those people. Maybe they were burdened with taking care of a relative that they didn't like such as a previously abusive parent? What if there was a person who was sick and wanted to die? My issue is they seem to show everyone having the same type of sadness.

 

Honestly, I think people are still nursing hate boners over Lost and are looking for any possible reason to chop this show, THE LEFTOVERS not LOST, down. 

Why do defenders of this show constantly like to throw down the LOST gauntlet? I watched LOST, liked LOST and was okay with the ending. However that has nothing to do with my feelings for this show. In fact I think comparing the 2 is apples and oranges. If we must compare I will say this. By this point in the show LOST had me hooked. I was interested in what was going to happen next and finding out more about these people. All we know about Leftovers is that everybody is sad and so far there's no hope of happiness in sight. If the previous four episodes are any indication, we have nothing to look forward to except more sadness and that getting real old, real fast. 

[ganesh]

Honestly, I think people are still nursing hate boners over Lost and are looking for any possible reason to chop this show, THE LEFTOVERS not LOST, down.

 

I said in another thread that it's not fair to compare this to Lost because this show should be allowed to stand on its own. However, this show, like Lost, Falling Skies, the X Files, etc., that require a significant suspension of disbelief, unlike, say, Masters of Sex, which is an historical drama, requires a higher degree of 'buy-in', i.e., world-building. This is a similar problem with FS currently because there's new TPTBs and they're all over the place. You need to ground the show for the viewers to buy the premise. I've put up a lot of stuff specific to this show that doesn't wash for me. No, don't compare it to Lost, but in this broad genre there's unavoidable common things that have to be done to make a good show. One would think having a second show in this genre, there would be a better crafted show. Cryptic dialogue isn't a problem just to Lost, but to bad shows. Yet here it is again. People not asking normal questions to others that people normally would ask. These are bad mistakes that indicate a lack of show bible or knowledge of the show universe and make for a poorly executed show. 

 

Misdirected anger is a teenage thing. Giving grief to the parent that's there for you and sentimentalizing the absent parent is a kid thing. I think it's actually a pretty  decent portrayal of a plausible reaction from a teenager. The problem is, that in a show full of adults, who should know better, all acting like immature assholes, a disaffected teenager is just one more thing that's hard to sit through.

 

That's basically the problem. But, even her friend is calling her out on her attitude problem. So it's not just typical giving shit to your parent. And part of that is the problem with the mother leaving. I'd rather she have one big blow up and tell the chief "fuck off it's your fault" so they can begin to move forward, than this holding pattern. She's a pretty willful teen, and after seeing the mother there and the chief yelling at her, it would have been a natural follow up for her to actually blow up the next day in response to "it's complicated."

 

9/11 was tragic, frightening and unpredictable, but the entire citizenry did not turn into a bunch of self-nihilistic downers, three years later.

 

I was on the west coast when 9/11 happened. I didn't know anyone personally who died, nor new anyone who did know someone who died. I felt bad and wanted to know what happened, and I was worried that regular everyday muslim people would suffer abuse. Beyond that my life went on. With only 2% of the people gone here, I'm sure there's people like that too. 

 

I'd like to add to this, what about people who losing loved ones was actually a release? It might be a small percentage, but I do believe there would be those people. Maybe they were burdened with taking care of a relative that they didn't like such as a previously abusive parent?

 

Isn't that the point of the pastor? He's pointed out that some horrible people have vanished. I'd like to see the other side of that, with people who are relieved that they are gone. What are they like? And this would have been another reason why more of the show from Nora's pov would work. She's going to meet a lot of different people and we could learn about the world better.

 

It's so weird because there's a lot of things in this world that could be interesting to watch, but they're focusing on the most banal in a way.

[shapeshifter]

I bet viewers would love it if the show has a scene in which formerly disgruntled employees are chatting about how much better it is working at ACME Widget Inc. since E. Vil. Boss disappeared three years ago.

Edited July 22, 2014 by shapeshifter

[iMonrey]

I don't get where Tom and Christine were supposed to be when the pantless guy attacked them. Some sort of hangout place for the barefoot people with targets on their foreheads? Where it's pants-optional? Why didn't anyone yell "Hey buddy, put some pants on?"

 

Also, I get the conceit of not wanting to look at what makes you uncomfortable, but I don't think painting a bullseye on your head and taking your shoes off is literally going to make you invisible when you've already been chased out of the hospital by security and they should be, by all rights, on high alert for you to return if they think you beat this pregnant woman.

 

 

Especially if this is the same town that's small enough that everyone will be at the same holiday dance. Shouldn't somebody at the dance have been like, "You didn't find that doll, I saw you in aisle 5 yesterday" ?

 

Yeah, that was stupid too, although I can at least buy that Kevin didn't really give a shit whether anyone knew he bought a replacement doll or not.

 

I did at least appreciate the revelation that Tom is not Kevin's biological child, since they look as much alike as Javier Bardem and Jonah Hill. What I didn't get is when Kevin unfolded the picture on the bulletin board, it seemed to be a picture of a pregnant Laurie and . . . maybe Tom's biological father? And if the picture is on (what I presumed to be) Tom's bulletin board, did that mean he knew Tom wasn't his real father?

 

It's not the general gloomy atmosphere of this show that's kind of turning me off, it's more of the overt pretentiousness of it all. 

[ganesh]

It's snippets of stuff like that, that flesh out the show universe. A good example is the GR handing out the pamphlet at the bus stop. You can work that into passing conversations or a quick scene. 

 

We've had Liv Tyler featured a fair amount in this episode. I still don't know why she joined the GR. It seems she's running away from getting married. She's currently only a mouthpiece for the GR, which again, if you're taking a vow of silence but having someone else speak for you, then ok. In any of her conversations, I've yet to garner anything substantive. She was interrogated by the chief of police and we learned nothing. 

 

It's almost like TPTBs are being deliberately obtuse because they don't know what story they are telling.

[GaT]

9/11 was tragic, frightening and unpredictable, but the entire citizenry did not turn into a bunch of self-nihilistic downers, three years later. Not even three weeks later. Yes, there is the unknown factor here, which adds to people's misery, but I still say not everyone will feel that way. And as some pointed out, some people might have had an asshole disappear from their lives, so Oct. 14 is a cause for celebration for them.

I'll add that not only did the entire citizenry not turn into a bunch of self-nihilistic downers after 9/11, they pulled together as a supportive group & became stronger, the exact opposite of the people on this show. I get that people are living with the unknown here, but people were living with the unknown after 9/11 too. Nobody knew if it would happen again, or if it did, where it would happen so people were really on edge for a long time. They still didn't act like the people on this show.

[Milaxx]

I'd like to add to this, what about people who losing loved ones was actually a release? It might be a small percentage, but I do believe there would be those people. Maybe they were burdened with taking care of a relative that they didn't like such as a previously abusive parent?

Isn't that the point of the pastor?

 

 

That's not how I see the pastor. He seems just as stuck and gloomy as everyone else in Mapleton. In fact it feels like he's doing penance for something. He can't let go of a church he can't fill and can't afford to maintain. He's telling people about the bad that the ones they lost did, but he appears to be doing it with malice. Case in point when he told Nora her husband was cheating on her after she refused to give him money. He seems to enjoy getting rocks to the head almost as much as the GR.

 

 What I'm talking about are people like the example upthread shapeshifter posted about the evil boss at the ACME Widget company. Is there not one person who is like "my dad was taken, thank dog cause he was a mean old SOB, now I can get on with my life and travel around the world!", or "my brother had crippling MS, hopefully he's out of pain now."? 

[ganesh]

No, I meant the pastor basically confirmed that this event wasn't the rapture and that in fact bad people have vanished. Ergo, there must be people who suffered in life because of those bad people who presumably aren't now.

 

It's a legit interpretation that

my dad was taken, thank dog cause he was a mean old SOB, now I can get on with my life and travel around the world!", or "my brother had crippling MS, hopefully he's out of pain now."?

 

because this was confirmed in-show by the pastor, regardless of his motives. We don't have to speculate or fanwank.

 

Of course, it's unlikely we'll ever see these people since the show focus is on the most miserable people, which I wouldn't think are representative of the world at large. 

 

In terms of religion, this has typically (i.e., the most boring) been shown through the lens of christianity on the show. So I'm wondering how other religions, like the billion muslims or near-billion hindus are reacting. I'm sure even though this is a smallish city that there's other religions. 

 

Even the credits are western-based.

[Milaxx]

No, I meant the pastor basically confirmed that this event wasn't the rapture and that in fact bad people have vanished. Ergo, there must be people who suffered in life because of those bad people who presumably aren't now.

 

But that wasn't my point. My point is the show only shows miserable people. I'm not debating whether it was a religious rapture or not. I'm talking about those who are still here and the fact that the show doesn't show anyone still here who is happy much less happier post Oct 14. The show seems determined to show that everyone has some form of PTSD and is miserable, yet they haven't created a world that makes me believe this. To use another show as contrast, The Strain has me willing to accept vampires on a plane. I watch this show and I don't buy all this misery.

[shapeshifter]

In terms of religion, this has typically (i.e., the most boring) been shown through the lens of christianity on the show. So I'm wondering how other religions, like the billion muslims or near-billion hindus are reacting. I'm sure even though this is a smallish city that there's other religions. 

 

Even the credits are western-based.

My kids grew up in a county that had at least a couple of dozen churches--but all of them some type of Christian (including Catholic, Jehovah's Witnesses, Presbyterian, white Baptist, black Baptist, Pentecostal, etc.) except for a couple of New Age groups. Now that I think about it, Mapleton could be modeled after that town.

But, yeah, we should see other cultural religious groups outside of town or even on TV, which they do show at least once per episode.

[ganesh]

But that wasn't my point.

 

I know what your point was. I was supporting that by saying the pastor serves as a plot device to that end. We don't need to fanwank or speculate whether "anyone still here who is happy much less happier post Oct 14" because we can directly infer that these people are here due to the pastor's actions, despite him being pathetic. 

 

So it's pretty likely that some people are happier in this world and the show refuses to show them is just absurd. If they are either trying to tell us that everyone has PTSD, then they've violated their own canon since the pastor provides evidence to the contrary. Which means that they haven't established their show universe properly, which seems like the case to me over these 4 episodes. Nor do I get that they know the story they want to tell. 

 

It seems like they have one cult too many because it's doubtful that they'll be able to develop both adequately.

 

This is again more evidence that they've created people who just don't really behave like people would in this situation. 

[benteen]

It still doesn't compute for me. "The proper way to grieve," for a massive unknown, most likely, supernatural event? There's a proper way to work through that? What are the five stages of grief for the pseudo-rapture?

 

Honestly, I think people are still nursing hate boners over Lost and are looking for any possible reason to chop this show, THE LEFTOVERS not LOST, down. 

 

I agree about the first part.  This would be a devastating event if this happened in real life.  Even those who didn't lose a loved one or friend would be rightly freaked about by something that absolutely could not be explained by science.  I buy the general sense of malaise. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by benteen

[seamusk]

A few folks have brought up 9/11 as a sort of framework for the kind of despair that folks might feel on this show. I think that only really applies if you knew people who died in the Towers or on the planes.  For 9/11, while we all were dramatically affected, most of us were not directly affected by loss.  Therefore I would expect that the emotions of it would be different from the events on The Leftovers.  If 2% of the population goes, then the only people who did not lose loved ones, were loners.  Even if you managed to not lose any of your family, the odds are that you lost a friend or someone your worked with.  You lost someone you knew fairly well.  Odds are that you lost someone you cared about.  It isn't a 2% chance that you lost someone.  It's a 2% chance that each person you cared about was lost.  I'm not saying that means the reactions on the television show are realistic.  It means that you have to take 9/11 and exponentially expand it's impacts.  And take into account that we understand what happened on 9/11.  We really have no idea what happened on October 14th.

 

For what it's worth, I think that the Christian churches would be either full or empty.  And I think many people would assume it was the rapture and that they just didn't make the cut for some reason.  Which could mean the churches are empty because then believers would have to believe that they failed or that it was all bull.  I'm not really sure, but I don't think anyone can eliminate the possibility it was the rapture because of the pastor's amateur investigations.  Even if those people sinned, what if they were absolved?  I imagine a lot of people would find comfort in the idea that their loved ones were taken during the rapture and grab on to that idea with all that they have.

[theredhead77]

If they don' show, or tell me what the GR is and why the head GR lady had a shit eating grin on her face I'm out.

I don't mind dark, depressing, no hope shows. I mind not knowing why I want to kick the shit out of someone.

The GR are antagonists just to be like that. If the town ignored them would they go away?

Are they part of the reason people disappeared?

Do they know why people disappeared?

In the previews I thought they were the people who disappeared.

[NorthstarATL]

 

A few folks have brought up 9/11 as a sort of framework for the kind of despair that folks might feel on this show. I think that only really applies if you knew people who died in the Towers or on the planes.  For 9/11, while we all were dramatically affected, most of us were not directly affected by loss.  Therefore I would expect that the emotions of it would be different from the events on The Leftovers.  If 2% of the population goes, then the only people who did not lose loved ones, were loners.  Even if you managed to not lose any of your family, the odds are that you lost a friend or someone your worked with.  You lost someone you knew fairly well.  Odds are that you lost someone you cared about.  It isn't a 2% chance that you lost someone.  It's a 2% chance that each person you cared about was lost.  I'm not saying that means the reactions on the television show are realistic.  It means that you have to take 9/11 and exponentially expand it's impacts.  And take into account that we understand what happened on 9/11.  We really have no idea what happened on October 14th.

         I recall that during the time of 9/11 there was also the uncertainty as to what would/could come next. Many of us WERE convinced that the U.S. was being attacked, and the assumption was that an attack on any was an attack on all. Even now there are those who have their own cultish theories about what happened, and there is actual evidence, so the weird cults of this show, sprung from an unexplained event, don't seem all that out of place. I just wish there were more explanation as to why the various groups and/or individuals reacted the way they did/do. I would assume that three years later different beliefs would have arisen as to what happened, or why. The general feeling of hopelessness even makes sense, in that, if you don't know why something happened, or even how, how in the world can you be certain that it won't happen again? But, then, that would lead, I would guess, to at least one hedonistic cult that just lived for the moment. I'd rather see that than the GR or the barefooted targets. Hedonism is understandable and more fun to watch.

[ganesh]

If 2% of the population goes, then the only people who did not lose loved ones, were loners.  Even if you managed to not lose any of your family, the odds are that you lost a friend or someone your worked with.  You lost someone you knew fairly well.  Odds are that you lost someone you cared about.  It isn't a 2% chance that you lost someone.  It's a 2% chance that each person you cared about was lost.  I'm not saying that means the reactions on the television show are realistic.  It means that you have to take 9/11 and exponentially expand it's impacts.  And take into account that we understand what happened on 9/11.  We really have no idea what happened on October 14th.

 

This is incorrect and was established by the show itself in the first episode. The odds actually aren't that you lost a friend or someone you worked with, nor someone you knew fairly well. I don't know what your benchmark is on odds, so I'll assume it's a likelihood of greater than 50% which means 1 out of every 2 people you know or 1-1 odds. I believe in E1 they said in one of the news v/o that it was more like 1 person out of a football game, 1 in 22 or 4.5% likelihood that someone you knew vanished, or the odds were 21-1 against that you knew someone who was taken. 

 

Which is why, and I'm not speaking for anyone else, but just from reading all the posts, there's a general disconnect as to how people are behaving on the show. Because in fact it's unlikely that a person sampled at random actually did lose someone they knew directly. 

 

So there wasn't a 2% chance that each person you cared about was lost. There was 2% of the entire world population that vanished. That's 140 million people. That's only half the USA population. About 15% of the population of India and less that of China, say 10%, 12%.

 

On average that's only 15 million people in the USA. The highest population centers are in cities obviously, but if you live in Small Town USA, there might have only been 5 people who vanished. If you lived in Mid Town USA, 20? That doesn't mean everyone knew those people. Even if you live in a big city, you still might not know anyone who vanished. 

 

It doesn't mean that everyone knows someone who vanished and if they don't they're a loner. Do we know for sure how many people Mapletown vanished? It could be that they lost a disproportionate amount of people. 

 

So the comparison to 9/11 that's been made here from the pov of a USA audience is apt. I was unnerved by what happened and certainly worried it would happen again, but I didn't know anyone directly, and most people didn't.

 

This is the problem with the show because they told us the numbers but then acted like literally everyone is super fucked up about it, but that really wouldn't be the case, given the numbers they actually told us. 

[A Boston Gal]

If they don' show, or tell me what the GR is and why the head GR lady had a shit eating grin on her face I'm out.

I don't mind dark, depressing, no hope shows. I mind not knowing why I want to kick the shit out of someone.

The GR are antagonists just to be like that. If the town ignored them would they go away?

Are they part of the reason people disappeared?

Do they know why people disappeared?

In the previews I thought they were the people who disappeared.

The GR head (Patty? sorry, name escapes me) grinned because she knew that while HotCop was locking her up in the van and claiming victory, her minions were really out around the town breaking into houses and stealing photographs. HotCop finally figured out something was up at the last second before he shut the door when he asked her, "Hey, where's everyone else in your group?"

[larapu2000]

My kids grew up in a county that had at least a couple of dozen churches--but all of them some type of Christian (including Catholic, Jehovah's Witnesses, Presbyterian, white Baptist, black Baptist, Pentecostal, etc.) except for a couple of New Age groups. Now that I think about it, Mapleton could be modeled after that town.

But, yeah, we should see other cultural religious groups outside of town or even on TV, which they do show at least once per episode.

 

I think it would only make sense to show other cultural religious groups as it pertains to the story.  America, by and large and for the most part, is predominantly Christian.  I don't need to see what's happening with every religion, because it's likely similar reactions to the event.

 

This is the problem with the show because they told us the numbers but then acted like literally everyone is super fucked up about it, but that really wouldn't be the case, given the numbers they actually told us.

 

I wouldn't have to have known a single soul that disappeared to be fucked up if 2% of the population of the world vanished.  It's not a matter of moving forward, it's a matter of how do you move forward?  I think setting the show 3 years after it happened shows that very problem-no one KNOWS how to move forward.

[ganesh]

I still think there would be some people would be living their lives or even *glad* that it happened. Unless this town on the show has a higher number of people gone. I'm not finding the people in this show to be reflective of what I think would be happening overall. Actually, I'm finding more characters very hard to believe.

 

America, by and large and for the most part, is predominantly Christian.  I don't need to see what's happening with every religion, because it's likely similar reactions to the event.

 

I'm highly doubtful that every religion would have similar reactions to this event. Simply because the rapture is unique to christianity. It's not actually in the bible, so I don't think even jews believe it in that way. Most people live in cities and those are usually multicultural. So yeah, christianity is the dominant religion in the country overall, but what's going on in Chinatown, for example? If the city has one. 

 

Every character is white and christian on the show? That's not really interesting.

[Guest]

It's not a matter of moving forward, it's a matter of how do you move forward?

To me, the greater paranoia (not even dealt with on this show because of course not) is the population thinking, "When is this going to happen again? And if it does, what if it happens to my family? Me?" No doubt if this event happened in our non-fictional world that would be a great worry and could certainly drive someone bonkers. At least with 9/11, we knew who the threat was and how it could (sort of) be contained. We knew to look out for unattended backpacks but what to look out for in the non-rapture? A Tuesday afternoon?

I sense absolutely NONE of that fear or paranoia or daily uncertainty on this show. Save for the woman who lost her whole family, no one lost anyone close to them at all.

[larapu2000]

Every character is white and christian on the show? That's not really interesting.

 

Well, it doesn't have to be interesting to you to be representative of small towns.  I grew up in one, with no African-Americans or Asian-Americans, a handful of Latin American families.  The closest Jewish temple or Muslim mosque was 2 hours away.

 

I wasn't saying that "the Rapture" was or wasn't unique to Christianity, but that perhaps Christianity is a more relateable religion (based solely on the fact that it is the predominant religion in the US), and that responses to events like this would cause most people to veer into very religious or very anti-religious territory, regardless of one's faith.  And if you're basing a series in a small town, sorry, it's VERY unlikely that other religions are represented.  It's a fact, man.

 

As far as people of color, there are a few African Americans in the GR, right?  The child molester cult leader is black, and Christine is Asian.  So it's not like every character of importance is white.  But again, the demographics of small towns and rural areas are predominantly white and Christian.  If this was a show about the same event but based in a large city like NYC, LA, Chicago?  Then, yes, you have a point.  

Edited July 23, 2014 by larapu2000

[ganesh]

I wasn't saying that "the Rapture" was or wasn't unique to Christianity, but that perhaps Christianity is a more relateable religion (based solely on the fact that it is the predominant religion in the US), and that responses to events like this would cause most people to veer into very religious or very anti-religious territory, regardless of one's faith.

 

This is very true and I'd like to see whether people are becoming more/anti religious. The fact that this isn't addressed at all is just another shortcoming. It's like they've deliberately picked the least interesting things to cover. 

 

Is this a small town or not? Because I'm not aware that they gave an impression either way. It doesn't seem like a city like NYC, but there's small cities that are still cities. Another problem with world building. 

 

Christianity is the go to religion on USA tv because tv writers are afraid to write about other religions. That's all it is. I can call them out as much as I want, but we're not going to see this. 

 

I would think the cults would be more diverse. 

[iMonrey]

 

It's almost like TPTBs are being deliberately obtuse because they don't know what story they are telling.

 

Or they're being obtuse just for the sake of being obtuse. There's not a lot of logic behind the Guilty Remnant. So they're kind of weird and creepy just for the sake of being weird and creepy. It's more about atmosphere than plot. That's what I meant by the pretentiousness of the show. It's masquerading as high-concept but it's actually short on substance.

 

 

What I'm talking about are people like the example upthread shapeshifter posted about the evil boss at the ACME Widget company. Is there not one person who is like "my dad was taken, thank dog cause he was a mean old SOB, now I can get on with my life and travel around the world!", or "my brother had crippling MS, hopefully he's out of pain now."?

 

Or "Nope, I don't know anyone who vanished. Not a single one of them."

[ganesh]

I don't know what the size of this town is, but I would think we should have at least one person like that. Even if it's only someone the chief runs into during his day. 

 

Or is it true that a disproportionate amount of people vanished? How big is this place? It's not NYC or SF. But is it Cedar Rapids? Tampa?

[BetyBee]

Wouldn't people be upset 3 years later because they still don't know what happened?  I don't think it's necessarily the Rapture.  I think it's the not knowing what happened to 2% of the world population that makes people so anxious.  It could be extra-terrestrial in nature.  It could be that everything you always believed about the laws of nature is apparently wrong. More people could disappear or maybe something even worse is right around the corner. It's the not knowing that makes people fearful and lacking in trust. 

[NorthstarATL]

To me, the greater paranoia (not even dealt with on this show because of course not) is the population thinking, "When is this going to happen again? And if it does, what if it happens to my family? Me?" No doubt if this event happened in our non-fictional world that would be a great worry and could certainly drive someone bonkers. At least with 9/11, we knew who the threat was and how it could (sort of) be contained. We knew to look out for unattended backpacks but what to look out for in the non-rapture? A Tuesday afternoon?

I sense absolutely NONE of that fear or paranoia or daily uncertainty on this show. Save for the woman who lost her whole family, no one lost anyone close to them at all.

This! Exactly what I was referring to! Like how could you leave home in the morning? I know we all live with uncertainty. My family member or loved one could be killed before I return from work or shopping, or jogging, or whatever...but statistics, past experience, and just needing to go about living keep me from dwelling on that or allowing it to alter the way I live. BUT if something like what happened in the show's world had occurred, all that goes out the window. That's why I don't buy the Chief's or his daughter's lack of urgency when they don't hear back from Tommy. And I guess I sort of buy the mother's cutting herself off, because she discarded the family before they could be taken from her.

 

Every character is white and christian on the show? That's not really interesting.

As another poster pointed out, there is diversity (though our POV characters are mostly related to each other, which is limiting in itself), but has the show mentioned the make-up of those taken/disappeared? Just curious.

[ganesh]

As another poster pointed out, there is diversity (though our POV characters are mostly related to each other, which is limiting in itself), but has the show mentioned the make-up of those taken/disappeared? Just curious.

 

I don't think they have and I find this patently unbelievable. To be fair, they have been shown to be collecting data by asking all those weird questions via the benefits interview. 

 

 

This! Exactly what I was referring to! Like how could you leave home in the morning?

Related to above. The chief has to go out everyday because you risk there being total chaos. I can buy that there's some people who don't care either way, but I can't buy that there aren't a lot of people who want to do something or demanding answers. That's why it was ridiculous for them to say, "well, it's been 3 years we don't know anything." Really? Nothing? Not necessarily have a full answer, but not confirming if everyone was taken at the same time? No common data points? No rise in crime? Drug use? No one knows anything at all? That's absurd. 

 

I really don't think they put together a comprehensive world where people would react in believable ways. 

[larapu2000]

I think it's interesting that many of the issues some of the viewers here have with the show, I feel have been hinted at or directly addressed:

 

This is very true and I'd like to see whether people are becoming more/anti religious. The fact that this isn't addressed at all is just another shortcoming. It's like they've deliberately picked the least interesting things to cover.

 

They show that attendance for the pastor's church has waned to almost nothing, but since there are no less than 3 cults depicted, there is clearly a movement towards alternative beliefs, so anti-religious.

 

I can't buy that there aren't a lot of people who want to do something or demanding answers.

 

I felt like the pastor is someone who is demanding answers, trying to shake people out of this fog so that they DO start demanding answers.  I think that's one of the biggest roles his character is supposed to play.  Researching the disappeared and at least eliminating one theory (the Rapture) by pointing out that some scumbags disappeared, too.

 

I assumed it was based in a small town due to the following:

-Everyone seems to know who Kevin is or who his father was

-He appears to be one of 3 cops investigating "crimes"-crimes that consist of who stole a baby Jesus

-The kids stand around in the middle of nowhere drinking

-There are zero establishing shots of interstates or 4 lane highways that would indicate a larger population

-The appearance of a deer (not that you don't get deer in a small city, but I'm adding it to the list...)

-The GR is out and about on their crime spree, but the town is small enough that Judge Amy can walk back to the HQ

-Their memorial celebration wasn't a huge gathering of masses

 

I don't agree that everyone wouldn't have been affected by this event.  Even if you didn't know one of the people that disappeared, someone you knew could have died from the effect of the vanishing, like pilots flying airplanes, auto accidents, caretakers that left an invalid or child alone to die or be harmed, etc.  So it's not just a tight circle of people that left, the event itself created a mass chaos that probably created a significant amount of casualties.

[shapeshifter]

So yeah, christianity is the dominant religion in the country overall, but what's going on in Chinatown, for example? If the city has one.

Every character is white and christian on the show? That's not really interesting.

I think it's too small, rural, and northern to have much diversity, although IRL, there are small towns just like that where there are communities of immigrants from Africa, Asia, etc. Still, they could eventually have someone who goes to the city nearby for, say, an appointment with a medical specialist, during which time we could see other cultures.

I'd like to know what those who believe in reincarnation think about the disappeared.

Christianity is the go to religion on USA tv because tv writers are afraid to write about other religions. That's all it is.

Good point. It's not socially acceptable to make fun of someone else's religion, and since this show is putting down a religion, if there are mostly Christians watching they at least won't feel uncomfortable as they would be watching another religion devolving into anarchy.

has the show mentioned the make-up of those taken/disappeared? Just curious.

In the opening credits, they show an African American-looking man reaching for what looks like his son, who looks very unhappy about being taken away. It maybe be the only image that is like that. I think all of the rest are white folks having sex or being angry, which fits with my idea (and ganesh's) directly above that it's okay for to ridicule the dominant audience population. Edited July 24, 2014 by shapeshifter

[ganesh]

They show that attendance for the pastor's church has waned to almost nothing, but since there are no less than 3 cults depicted, there is clearly a movement towards alternative beliefs, so anti-religious.

 

As others have pointed out, the pastor is kind of an asshole so they may be going over to another church. Further, we haven't seen much of what the Wayne cult is about, so it could be religious-based and one could make an argument that the use of the word "faith" by the GR is religious based. So "clearly anti-religious" isn't really a consistent conclusion with what's been shown onscreen over the last four hours. At best, it's up in the air. 

 

 

I felt like the pastor is someone who is demanding answers, trying to shake people out of this fog so that they DO start demanding answers.  I think that's one of the biggest roles his character is supposed to play.  Researching the disappeared and at least eliminating one theory (the Rapture) by pointing out that some scumbags disappeared, too.

Not only is he being played by an actor I really like, but this is really the only thing remotely watchable for me. My point previously, and I know I've made it 100 times, so sorry to repeat, is that in E1 they said "no one knows anything." When clearly, the pastor knows something because he's done actual research, and there's some type of agency collecting data re: the benefits. And they did come up with the statistical analysis. So the show is being disingenuous about how people are actually getting on.

 

I think the only 100% certainty is that this isn't the rapture. This doesn't require fanwanking or inference, the show was definitive on this point. But to say, it's not that and that's it is just silly. 

 

They're bending over backwards to Not Make This About The Event, but you still have to create a world to ground the show. The show the pastor doing some work, but then you have opening credits that are definitely religious based. 

 

I can accept that this is a small town, I just wasn't quite getting that on screen. It looks like where I live which is more city-like. Not every city is NYC or had 4 lane highways. There's tons of mid size cities in this country with public transportation, not necessarily subways, and different cultural areas. We have a section where the middle eastern/south asain markets are. We also have parks and residential areas where high school kids go drinking. 

 

Just because there wasn't a huge gathering for the memorial could have meant not everyone wanted to go as well. 

 

I don't agree that everyone wouldn't have been affected by this event.  Even if you didn't know one of the people that disappeared, someone you knew could have died from the effect of the vanishing...

 

 

This is fair speculation. The pastor's wife is an invalid because someone who was driving the car vanished and crashed into them. However, the show just isn't giving me an impression that this has be thought out in this way.

 

This is clearly not the show I would expect based on this concept. I think the sucks, and TPTBs have failed at world-building. I watch shitty shows sometimes because I don't have a lot going on. nbd.

 

It's more about atmosphere than plot.

 

I think this is probably the best answer to it. 

 

Flashforward was kind of a shitty show with a tenuously common concept, but they covered big picture shit like this pretty quickly.

 

I'd like to know what those who believe in reincarnation think about the disappeared.

 

Is that the Hindus? Because that's why I mentioned them before. 

 

I think it's too small, rural, and northern to have much diversity, although IRL, there are small towns just like that where there are communities of immigrants from Africa, Asia, etc.

 

I think this is more lazy television writing than anything. Because "small town" = white people on tv. Even though that's really not the case. The Walking Dead has a pretty rural setting, and while most people are white, there's some diversity. We did actually see two people in burkas in E1, no? Where are those people? 

 

I mean, this is a Falling Skies quality show; i.e., kind of shitty summer show on cable. But this is an HBO show. This should be far far better.

Edited July 24, 2014 by ganesh

[theredhead77]

The GR head (Patty? sorry, name escapes me) grinned because she knew that while HotCop was locking her up in the van and claiming victory, her minions were really out around the town breaking into houses and stealing photographs. HotCop finally figured out something was up at the last second before he shut the door when he asked her, "Hey, where's everyone else in your group?"

Obviously I was so enraged by her shit-eating grin that I missed his line. I don't even mind shows that make me angry, if I know why I'm angry and get some sort of resolution. I am a HUGE BSG and Farscape fan. There were numerous dark, no hope, enrage me episodes. The GR needs to disappear themselves.

[larapu2000]

The Walking Dead has a pretty rural setting, and while most people are white, there's some diversity.

 

Meh, I think that's a stretch to compare.  First, there is a much higher concentration of African Americans in the south (where the Walking Dead takes place), and second, the population within that world is shifting, moving, travelling.  I would actually say that based on my visits to the South (and my experience with their demographics), the Walking Dead is far more underrepresented and unrealistic in terms of minorities than this show.  I forgot to include the mayor in my diversity count as well.  I don't think diversity is an issue on this show.

 

I get your point about small cities and public transit and parks, but it wasn't a singular factor that gave me the impression that it was a small town vibe, it was the combination of factors that I listed that gave me an overall impression of a non-urban area.

[ShellSeeker]

I'm out.  I don't mind long, drawn out, cryptic shows but I need to be able to relate to someone or something, or compelling, interesting characters.  I stuck with John from Cincinnati until the end and while I never watched it again, the story and some of the characters stayed with me.  The people in The Leftovers are bland and boring, and nothing I've seen makes me want to know what happens next. 

 

I must respectfully disagree with you. I watched all of John from Cincinnati and found it to be the most pretentious, self-absorbed dreck that HBO ever churned out. It was horrible and completely pointless, and David Milch was far too concerned with Making A Statement than he was with making a show that people would actually want to watch. I like this show much better than that, and for some reason it's growing on me a little more each week.

 

 

I haven't read the book. In addition to the guy saying something about the rich guys paying a lot for it the tag on the shroud indicated it was a doll as well. I think the call Tommy received may also have mentioned it. Whatever it was  thought it was fairly obvious that those were dolls. Until I started seeing post like yours I had no idea it wasn't obvious to everyone watching.

 

Ha!! I couldn't figure out exactly what was going on until I came here to read the comments. Then I realized the tie-in with the baby doll molds at the beginning. I just couldn't quite figure out what was going on with that. I knew they weren't actually corpses, because the bodies looked too perfect (no decomposition or anything like that) but didn't get that they were dolls. I did find that amusing because people will always find a way to make a buck on anything, no matter how mercenary or distasteful. 

 

I wouldn't have to have known a single soul that disappeared to be fucked up if 2% of the population of the world vanished.  It's not a matter of moving forward, it's a matter of how do you move forward?  I think setting the show 3 years after it happened shows that very problem-no one KNOWS how to move forward.

 

I agree. No one knows how to move forward, and I think you could even say that no one knows how to grieve something like this. Maybe that's why everyone seems to be stuck.

 

There seems to be very little love for this episode, but I thought it was the best episode yet. There was quite a bit that I liked about it. The discussion between Nora and Kevin was really good. I think the best exchange of the episode was between these 2:

 

Kevin: I cheated on my wife.

Nora: Why?

Kevin: Is there a good answer to that question?

Nora: I think I just heard it.

 

Someone upthread took issue with the GR B&E not being realistic because it was illegal -- that didn't bother me because I think the GR does not really give a shit at all about what's legal and not legal. Between last week and this week they've gone from being annoyingly mysterious to having piqued my curiosity. After last week I really want to know why they bought the church, particularly when CE's character was one of the only people in town who consistently treated them with kindness. And that look between Patty (I think -- the leader) and CE's character at the very end last week seemed tinged with malevolence.

 

Now during this week's episode we find out that they are in other cities, which answers an outstanding question. I wonder if the B&E was a coordinated effort in many cities, or just something carried out by the Mapleton group? And what was the point? And I couldn't help but think how weird, creepy, and unsettling it would be to come home and find a bunch of empty picture frames. 

 

Also, someone else wondered why Kevin doesn't have more information about the GR that he's gleaned from police departments in other cities, even though he's been investigating them. I think it's because his interest in the GR is so very personal. He doesn't seem to be investigating them as much as he seems to be stalking them.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Queasy-bo

[ganesh]

Well, the chief has a big board up in the office and has determined what is the "pledge house" and the main house. He had ID-ed the boss of this version of the GR and has some other people up there. He confirms the location of a new recruit when an "outsider" files a missing persons report and he (badly) interviews new recruits. So it seems like the investigation is fairly legit. I would think he'd have even more info because it's so personal. 

 

This is kind of the microcosm of the show in that much is half-assed. They show a bit of something without filling in the edges of the big picture for anything. The chief of police doesn't call any other chief anywhere?: Hey do you have these weird people walking around in white smoking all the time? I didn't see any list of cities on his board. That would have been really all you need. Is it only an east coast thing? Eastern seaboard? Does anyone know who started it? I think that would be a natural first step. 

 

He actually said "they showed up". From where? Maybe I should call come other cities and see where they came from maybe?

 

I'm actually glad he arrested them (even though he got duped) because it's something happening. We had 10 minutes out of an hour show of the son staring at the phone. 

 

Or it's like the show has ADHD and focuses on this for 2 seconds then that then that and not really showing anything. I really think they should have cut out the Wayne cult. 

Edited July 24, 2014 by ganesh

[Shermie]

On average that's only 15 million people in the USA. The highest population centers are in cities obviously, but if you live in Small Town USA, there might have only been 5 people who vanished. If you lived in Mid Town USA, 20? That doesn't mean everyone knew those people. Even if you live in a big city, you still might not know anyone who vanished

 

Statistically, one person out of 50 vanished. In the example quoted here, Small Town USA might only have 5 people vanish? That gives the town a population of about 250? That's barely a village. I live in a small town, pop. 2000. That would mean 40 people would have vanished (yes, I know the vanished weren't even distributed, so one town of 2000 might lose 100 people and another would lose 15, but I'm talking likelihood). Odds are, I would know one of those 40, probably at least half. Maybe not personally, but I'd know "of" them. And that doesn't account for all the rural people who live around the town and attend church and school and do business there. My church has 400 people, statistically, 8 would have disappeared. I know everyone in my church.

 

Thing is, how do we define "small town"? I've heard people in huge cities (Toronto, New York) refer to smaller cities of 500,000 as being "small town", which is just asshat snobbery or blatant ignorance. I've heard newspeople refer to something happening in a town of 15,000 and saying it's a small town where everyone knows everybody. Sure, everybody knows 15,000 people. Okay. 

 

But then TV small towns will have this Norman Rockwell-esque vibe, with one church and one restaurant and it seems like the town has 250 people. But then there will be a high school and hospital and police station and airport when the plot requires it.  Hollywood has no idea.

 

My point is that even at 2%, most people would know someone who vanished. That still doesn't mean everyone would be so perpetually mopey three years later. 

[goodogcarl]

I found the GR creeping around in people's houses particularly unsettling.  It reminded me of what the Manson Family used to do . . . they called it "Creepy Crawling" and they would break into people's homes while they slept and rearrange the furniture. People, I guess, for years would be wondering, "what the hell happened?" but wouldn't find out until the book Helter Skelter came out and that was revealed.   Shudder.

 

I'm really not enjoying this show . . . and every week tell myself, "That's it!" but then it records the next week and I think, "Okay . . . one more but THAT'S IT!!."

Edited July 24, 2014 by goodogcarl

[ganesh]

It strains credulity that out of that many b&e that no one got caught. You mean to tell me in this gun this and gun that society no one got shot at? Beat up? 

[shapeshifter]

I found the GR creeping around in people's houses particularly unsettling.  It reminded me of what the Manson Family used to do . . . they called it "Creepy Crawling" and they would break into people's homes while they slept and rearrange the furniture. People, I guess, for years would be wondering, "what the hell happened?" but wouldn't find out until the book Helter Skelter came out and that was revealed.   Shudder.

Didn't know that. So, they probably borrowed from the Manson clan behavior for this episode. I doubt they'll be gutting pregnant women, but...

Yes. Shudder, indeed.

[ottoDbusdriver]

It strains credulity that out of that many b&e that no one got caught. You mean to tell me in this gun this and gun that society no one got shot at? Beat up?

 

Or attacked by roving packs of feral dogs ?

[GaT]

It strains credulity that out of that many b&e that no one got caught. You mean to tell me in this gun this and gun that society no one got shot at? Beat up? 

Especially since they don't know how or why everyone disappeared. I would think that people would have a lot more guns after 10/14 in case someone tried to take them.

[ganesh]

I would think that people would have a lot more guns after 10/14 in case someone tried to take them.

 

Which, again, I would think the chief would be bitching left and right to the mayor how he doesn't have the resources to deal with all the crime or everyone calling 911 every 15 minutes because of this and that.

 

They have a scene where the mayor tells the chief to go buy another Jesus. And he's justifiably pissed about it. He doesn't say, "do you know how many calls we've been out on? Do you know how many people are in holding waiting to be processed? I have 5 crimes scenes to visit today alone." 

 

You don't have to say much more than that. It's at least providing some 3D to this world. 

 

This show is pissing me off. It thinks it's high minded but TPTBs clearly haven't thought out what kind of world this show would be set in. A fanwank here and there is fine. This is ridiculous.

 

I don't even think it's that bad that the GR ripped everyone off during the school dance. That makes sense. But you would probably only want to break into houses where people aren't home. They're showing people sleeping and the GR is just walking right by. Come on.

 

There's no internal logic. At least if the show was holding up, I'd say, well, it's slow paced, but that's not a big deal, they're exploring this world. That's not even there though. 

 

I like how the GR can't talk but they can laugh at the chief too. 

[Jamoche]

If I had all my photos stolen by the GR, I'd break into their houses and steal all their white clothes and cigarettes.  

I'd sneak in and mix their laundry detergent with powdered dye.

[ganesh]

If they stalked me, I'd call the police and file a report or a restraining order. My ex-roommate sent me a threatening email and the cops paid him a personal visit and told him to knock it off. You know, like people would act.