S15.E15: Gimme Shelter

[Terese]

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

To tell the truth, I have many problems with the show, but a lack of scientific accuracy is way down on the list of things I am going to worry about. I want the writing to be internally plausible and consistent with itself, but as long as it has that internal logic I could care less whether it has a basis in true science. It's a fantasy.

 

Yes, speaking of a lack of consistency... Remember the episode "Peace of Mind", just last season? There was actually a scene where Castiel was struggling and punching and rolling around on the ground trying to subdue a mere human. So, yeah, whatever, writers.

The science matters to me simply because this show doesn't take place inside a comic book. When you have writers and a showrunner changing fundamental the properties of the universe, anything and everything goes.

[ahrtee]

23 minutes ago, Terese said:

The science matters to me simply because this show doesn't take place inside a comic book. When you have writers and a showrunner changing fundamental the properties of the universe, anything and everything goes.

Kind of like the Impala being able to drive anywhere in the US in just a day or two (sometimes less)?😊

[Bergamot]

27 minutes ago, Terese said:

The science matters to me simply because this show doesn't take place inside a comic book. When you have writers and a showrunner changing fundamental the properties of the universe, anything and everything goes.

Yes, that's what fantasy does, it changes the fundamental properties of the universe, so that things like magic and supernatural powers are possible. So, for example, you can do unscientific things like cut someone's throat and collect the blood in a bowl to use it as a "telephone" to talk to your diabolical Father in Hell.  And as I said, there's nothing wrong with that so long as the story is internally consistent and follows its own rules. I have no problem with Castiel being able to touch someone's forehead and make them instantly fall asleep; the problem is that sometimes he can do it and then other times, without any explanation or reason, he can't. That's just bad writing.

But if you require that a story be based strictly on real science, that's cool. To each his own. I think that would be science fiction rather than fantasy, and I love science fiction too!

[Terese]

30 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, that's what fantasy does, it changes the fundamental properties of the universe, so that things like magic and supernatural powers are possible. So, for example, you can do unscientific things like cut someone's throat and collect the blood in a bowl to use it as a "telephone" to talk to your diabolical Father in Hell.  And as I said, there's nothing wrong with that so long as the story is internally consistent and follows its own rules. I have no problem with Castiel being able to touch someone's forehead and make them instantly fall asleep; the problem is that sometimes he can do it and then other times, without any explanation or reason, he can't. That's just bad writing.

But if you require that a story be based strictly on real science, that's cool. To each his own. I think that would be science fiction rather than fantasy, and I love science fiction too!

The spirits enter the organic life essence of the blood. I can accept that. Or that an angel has powers, or that organic and inorganic things have energy that can be tapped into for spells, I can accept. But, i can't accept that you can remove the light and dark matter that comprises the universe without it collapsing on itself.

[Terese]

45 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Kind of like the Impala being able to drive anywhere in the US in just a day or two (sometimes less)?😊

🙂 Each episode would comprise an entire season, just traveling. I took note that Sam actually said, "we have been driving for two days, Dean.. " 

[Terese]

4 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Can somebody remind me why Death wants God to die?  What does she care about what he does to the world?  On another tangent, I miss the old Death.  

She's a control freak. I haven't understood her or reapers in general in the past few seasons. I would think their concerns and occupations would be limited to death and those dying. Old Death took a casual interest because of souls, but, now it's direct interference with the living. I suspect Billie wants to take over and run the universe without TFW.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That is really not a fair judgement.  IMO, in both cases, he's trying to reason with her to save the world. This time it's from her brother instead of from her. Perhaps hypocritical in the strictest sense, but intentions and context are everything. 

Dean wouldn't kill his brother in S4 and thousands if not hundreds of thousands died all over the world because of it and even more suffered in the aftermath (natural disasters for example are no joke). Often the Winchesters talk a big game when it comes to asking others to sacrifice their siblings or someone close to them for the greater good but they don't do the same.

In this case Dean isn't even asking Amara to actually help them with Chuck, since the intention is lying to her to get involved in order to kill her. So he isn't even asking her to help save the world because that's a lie. If context matters, then this is even worse. He's setting her up under the pretense of helping to save the world in order to kill her, despite Amara having done nothing wrong.

[Smad]

7 minutes ago, Terese said:

She's a control freak. I haven't understood her or reapers in general in the past few seasons. I would think their concerns and occupations would be limited to death and those dying. Old Death took a casual interest because of souls, but, now it's direct interference with the living. I suspect Billie wants to take over and run the universe without TFW.

I actually think it's The Empty who is the mastermind. Do we even know if The Empty hasn't possessed Billie? But think about it from The Empty's POV...things keep waking up in it's realm and disturbing it. What would change that? Simple really, things need to be how they were before God created everything. In order to achieve that, God needs to go. If he goes then all creation goes and the Entity can go back to sleep for eternity.

And if Billie is not possessed, she might just be done with the constant violations. Even OG Death was annoyed by the constant screw ups and willing to move on to another planet. And that's really God's fault since his story is what causes it all. Imagine you work in the Post Office or something. You put the mail in the bags of the carriers and then someone comes by and not only takes it all out of the bags but mixes the mail up and then you have to fix all that mess up. Now expand that to the global/cosmic scale and what it might take to 'fix' that mess and it happens constantly thanks to God. You'd probably be tired too and want it all to end, even if means you go too.

[Terese]

28 minutes ago, Smad said:

I actually think it's The Empty who is the mastermind. Do we even know if The Empty hasn't possessed Billie? But think about it from The Empty's POV...things keep waking up in it's realm and disturbing it. What would change that? Simple really, things need to be how they were before God created everything. In order to achieve that, God needs to go. If he goes then all creation goes and the Entity can go back to sleep for eternity.

And if Billie is not possessed, she might just be done with the constant violations. Even OG Death was annoyed by the constant screw ups and willing to move on to another planet. And that's really God's fault since his story is what causes it all. Imagine you work in the Post Office or something. You put the mail in the bags of the carriers and then someone comes by and not only takes it all out of the bags but mixes the mail up and then you have to fix all that mess up. Now expand that to the global/cosmic scale and what it might take to 'fix' that mess and it happens constantly thanks to God. You'd probably be tired too and want it all to end, even if means you go too.

I completely agree with you.  Billie and the Empty have a deal so that he can go back to sleep. I'm sure that Billie is acting of her own accord, up to a point. The Empty has it's own agenda, that likely involves the destruction of the universe. Billie probably wants to be God.

[ahrtee]

54 minutes ago, Smad said:

Dean wouldn't kill his brother in S4 and thousands if not hundreds of thousands died all over the world because of it and even more suffered in the aftermath (natural disasters for example are no joke). Often the Winchesters talk a big game when it comes to asking others to sacrifice their siblings or someone close to them for the greater good but they don't do the same.

I know any discussion of this has to go in another thread, but I feel obliged to ask:  when in s.4 did Dean refuse to kill his brother and when did all those multitudes of people die because of it?  

[foxfreakinmulder]

Didn't the original death (who was freaking awesome) tell Dean that he could kill God? If so why can't new death?

I thought angels could see the real faces of demons so why didn't Cas notice the police office that took the girl was a demon?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

Dean wouldn't kill his brother in S4 and thousands if not hundreds of thousands died all over the world because of it and even more suffered in the aftermath (natural disasters for example are no joke). Often the Winchesters talk a big game when it comes to asking others to sacrifice their siblings or someone close to them for the greater good but they don't do the same.

In this case Dean isn't even asking Amara to actually help them with Chuck, since the intention is lying to her to get involved in order to kill her. So he isn't even asking her to help save the world because that's a lie. If context matters, then this is even worse. He's setting her up under the pretense of helping to save the world in order to kill her, despite Amara having done nothing wrong.

Except we know that the events were going to happen regardless,  thanks to the manipulations of heaven and hell. And if that doesn't work, we're now told it was all part of Chuck's story to amuse himself, so what difference does it make. 

The blame game is circular. You keep saying "he", but there are a lot of players in this game. They went there with the intention of lying to her  with the full knowledge of all involved. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Smad]

48 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I know any discussion of this has to go in another thread, but I feel obliged to ask:  when in s.4 did Dean refuse to kill his brother and when did all those multitudes of people die because of it?  

When did Dean not refuse to kill his brother? After all, when did Dean in S4 ever try and kill Sam? Heck Dean could have killed him at the buzzer and prevented it all.

And are you really asking about the death toll around the world since the S4 Finale until the S5 Finale? Do the math yourself, starting with the blast zone round the area where Lucifer's cage opened when he was released up to the tv stations reporting natural disasters around the world (which Cas confirmed was because of the upcoming Michael/Lucifer battle).

Hell what is the death toll world wide since the brothers refused to close the gates of hell (so since the end of S8)? How many victims did things from hell claim all over the world since then?

The brothers refuse to sacrifice each other all the damn time and that's how these world ending events always come about. But demanding someone else sacrifice their sibling (or family) is no problem for them.

[Smad]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And if that doesn't work, we're now told it was all part of Chuck's story to amuse himself, so what difference does it make.

Then what's the point of episode threads (and all other threads about characters/plots)? Or character and plot discussion? If everything is Chuck and nothing is the characters, then there is nothing to discuss. Discussion of an episode then shouldn't extend beyond 'Chuck wrote a crappy story and his characters sucked.'

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except we know that the events were going to happen regardless,  thanks to the manipulations of heaven and hell

Sam chose his way. No manipulation would have worked if Sam had refused to drink the blood. As Ruby said, it wasn't the blood it was him and his choices.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Smad said:

Sam chose his way. No manipulation would have worked if Sam had refused to drink the blood. As Ruby said, it wasn't the blood it was him and his choices.

At that point Sam and Dean didn't know about the Apocalypse or Sam's role in it.  He thought he was stopping it, not starting it.  It was all on the angels and demons.  There was no need to kill him.  

But both Winchesters willingly "allowed" the other to sacrifice himself when necessary--Sam into the pit, Dean taking on the soul bomb.  They don't ask others to do things that they know they have to do for themselves.  Amara knows (or believes) that she is the only one who can help stop her brother; and, being of equal strength, she's also the only one who can stop them from whatever they're planning now.  She can understand that, even if she doesn't want to help, they need her not to interfere with their plan.  

 

5 minutes ago, Smad said:

Then what's the point of episode threads (and all other threads about characters/plots)? Or character and plot discussion? If everything is Chuck and nothing is the characters, then there is nothing to discuss. Discussion of an episode then shouldn't extend beyond 'Chuck wrote a crappy story and his characters sucked.'

Anyone can stop discussing (or reading the threads) at any time.  I choose to enjoy the characters, because I think they took on a life of their own after Chuck created them, even if the situations they were dumped in came from Chuck.  

 

[BabySpinach]

33 minutes ago, Smad said:

When did Dean not refuse to kill his brother? After all, when did Dean in S4 ever try and kill Sam? Heck Dean could have killed him at the buzzer and prevented it all.

And are you really asking about the death toll around the world since the S4 Finale until the S5 Finale? Do the math yourself, starting with the blast zone round the area where Lucifer's cage opened when he was released up to the tv stations reporting natural disasters around the world (which Cas confirmed was because of the upcoming Michael/Lucifer battle).

Hell what is the death toll world wide since the brothers refused to close the gates of hell (so since the end of S8)? How many victims did things from hell claim all over the world since then?

The brothers refuse to sacrifice each other all the damn time and that's how these world ending events always come about. But demanding someone else sacrifice their sibling (or family) is no problem for them.

Sam was willing to let Dean blow up in season 11. Dean was willing to let Sam throw himself in the Cage in season 5. They've both been willing to sacrifice the other when it meant saving the world. 

But they are NOT, and have never been, obligated to sacrifice themselves for the world on principle. They owe the world fuck-all, especially considering how they've been toyed with and manipulated their whole lives. Both he and Sam have been cosmic pawns ever since they were born. Dean was not obligated to kill his little brother, the one he'd practically raised, when he wasn't yet past saving. Sam wasn't obligated to kill himself to close the gates of Hell when the world's ongoing, millennia-old demon problem had absolutely nothing to do with them.

Amara has the power to stop her brother in exchange for the preservation of the last universe and all the people in it. If it were Sam or Dean's choice ie. going against their brother, they'd take it. They'd scramble for another way first, but when all other options were exhausted, they'd ultimately go through with it. They've definitively proven that already.

Edited October 18, 2020 by BabySpinach

[SueB]

I keep rewatching that scene with Amara and Dean.  I think he believes her.  I think he believes she was trying to give him a gift.   The look on his face when she explained ‘why’ Mary was not anger at her.  He is still furious at Chuck but not Amara IMO.  
 

So I don’t  believe Dean WILL Sacrifice Amara without her consent.  

[Terese]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

At that point Sam and Dean didn't know about the Apocalypse or Sam's role in it.  He thought he was stopping it, not starting it.  It was all on the angels and demons.  There was no need to kill him.  

But both Winchesters willingly "allowed" the other to sacrifice himself when necessary--Sam into the pit, Dean taking on the soul bomb.  They don't ask others to do things that they know they have to do for themselves.  Amara knows (or believes) that she is the only one who can help stop her brother; and, being of equal strength, she's also the only one who can stop them from whatever they're planning now.  She can understand that, even if she doesn't want to help, they need her not to interfere with their plan.  

 

Anyone can stop discussing (or reading the threads) at any time.  I choose to enjoy the characters, because I think they took on a life of their own after Chuck created them, even if the situations they were dumped in came from Chuck.  

 

This right here, Ahrtee, epitomizes what is wrong with having Chuck the writer, and why I have so much contempt for the real writters.  Even if it can be dismissed, in that one crushing blow they stripped Sam and Dean of their agency.  Every heroic act, struggle, mistake, choice became, in that moment, by design. It doesn't matter that it's a TV show written and acted. We know that. But, it was a story we engaged in and genuinely loved.  Now, they have to fight for the free will, we all know they already had, until it was retconned to Hell.

[Gbb]

On 10/15/2020 at 9:26 PM, ahrtee said:

4. What the hell show was I watching?  I could tell it was a CW show with beautiful angsty teens watched over by beautiful adults (who don't interfere but feel guilty for not preventing the problems) but where was SPN in there?  In the 5 or 6 minutes that Sam and Dean sat either in the car or in the diner with Amara?  The only supernatural element (other than Amara) was the CRD, who had no reason to be there at all except for comic relief.  

 

Am I the only one who thought we were seeing a back-door pilot for a show where Cas and Jack travel the country helping people and solving crimes? 

Seriously. We have Dean telling them to go “Highway to Heaven that bitch,” we had the funny, interesting crossroads demon who wants to tag along with them - oh and who even said he’d totally watch a show about angels solving crimes. 

i really thought/think it was a back-door pilot. 

[Terese]

1 hour ago, Gbb said:

Am I the only one who thought we were seeing a back-door pilot for a show where Cas and Jack travel the country helping people and solving crimes? 

Seriously. We have Dean telling them to go “Highway to Heaven that bitch,” we had the funny, interesting crossroads demon who wants to tag along with them - oh and who even said he’d totally watch a show about angels solving crimes. 

i really thought/think it was a back-door pilot. 

I think you may be right. Of course the whole season is so meta with the writers being God, or God being a writer, can't be sure.  One last attempt to override the no spin off rule. Castiel and Jack seem popular enough.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Terese said:

I think you may be right. Of course the whole season is so meta with the writers being God, or God being a writer, can't be sure.  One last attempt to override the no spin off rule. Castiel and Jack seem popular enough.

I  can't imagine a more boring show. If, in today's climate, a show like Wayward Sisters can't get picked up, there is not a chance in hell that something as bland as Cas and Jack are would make it.  I'd literally rather watch Bloodlines. 

[Terese]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I  can't imagine a more boring show. If, in today's climate, a show like Wayward Sisters can't get picked up, there is not a chance in hell that something as bland as Cas and Jack are would make it.  I'd literally rather watch Bloodlines. 

I can't say for sure, as I was mostly cleaning the kitchen during this episode. 

On a serious note, I always liked Castiel. But, he has been so degraded and literally emptied by this characterization as Jack's guardian, I can barely tolerate his presence without lowering my eyes. However, there are those who love the duo. Though I couldn't see it lasting to mid-season. Both clueless with zero personalty would wear out its welcome with even it's most loyal supporters.

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, Gbb said:

Am I the only one who thought we were seeing a back-door pilot for a show where Cas and Jack travel the country helping people and solving crimes? 

Saving people, hunting things?

[Bergamot]

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

IMO, in both cases, he's trying to reason with her to save the world. This time it's from her brother instead of from her. Perhaps hypocritical in the strictest sense, but intentions and context are everything. 

To put the "His universe. His rules" quote in context, it was part of a conversation where they are actually talking about religion and the way Chuck has set himself up to be worshiped in this world, and how some people find comfort in following his rules. Amara is incredulous about this. (Remember Amara talking to the priest about God? "Wait. So only dead people get to see him?  And this makes sense, to billions of you?") The whole thing makes Amara furious because she considers it to be "propaganda" against herself. And she has her own idea of what  the "perfect creation" would be like.

 

Quote

Amara: It’s incredible. How it endures, the propaganda. He was so threatened by me, fearful that I would make a more perfect creation than he. So, he exiled me. Virtually erased me. Passed on stories that I was a threat.
Dean: While your brother was going all Kanye, blowing his horn.
Amara: He encouraged religions as monuments to his ego, promised the fearful safety if they’d adore him. His way or the highway.
Dean: Some people find comfort in that. Golden rule, Brother’s keeper. It is his universe. His rules.
Amara: What if there were no rules? No pain. No prayer. Just bliss. That feeling that you have when you’re with me. For everyone. Forever.

Anyway, with the world about to end due to Amara's rage against Chuck, Dean's approach was never to insist that Amara must behave herself because Chuck was in charge, end of discussion -- as if that would ever work. What finally got through to her of course was to ask her "What do you want?" -- to make her realize what she really wanted at that point was to reunite with her brother. 

I like the conversations between Dean and Amara, even when the words they say don't always make sense.  Whenever they are together, it is like they are in a dream, or like they are the only two people in the universe. There is an air of intense intimacy when they talk, and this feeling that somehow there is another conversation going on underneath those words that only they can hear. There is a unique bond between them -- not a romantic one, although it might look that way superficially. I think it is interesting to watch.

I think if Amara had readily agreed to help them imprison her brother, that would have become the plan. It would give them a better chance of saving everyone than they have with their current plan. But Amara feels that what Dean is asking is something that she can't give, although at the end she does say that she will think about it. If not, I wonder if Dean actually could hurt Amara -- he's never been able to before.

In any case, in that conversation I felt just a tiny spark of interest for once in this season. One thing that has been missing for me with Billie's plan for Jack is the importance of the Winchesters in the scheme of things -- supposedly their role is to be "messengers", not principal actors, and the things they have been doing could be done by any character in the story. But Dean talking to Amara the way he does -- that is something that Jack can't do. It is literally something no one else in the universe could do. And that's the kind of show I'm here for. We'll see if it is anything more than a temporary glitch.

[Terese]

10 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

To put the "His universe. His rules" quote in context, it was part of a conversation where they are actually talking about religion and the way Chuck has set himself up to be worshiped in this world, and how some people find comfort in following his rules. Amara is incredulous about this. (Remember Amara talking to the priest about God? "Wait. So only dead people get to see him?  And this makes sense, to billions of you?") The whole thing makes Amara furious because she considers it to be "propaganda" against herself. And she has her own idea of what  the "perfect creation" would be like.

 

Anyway, with the world about to end due to Amara's rage against Chuck, Dean's approach was never to insist that Amara must behave herself because Chuck was in charge, end of discussion -- as if that would ever work. What finally got through to her of course was to ask her "What do you want?" -- to make her realize what she really wanted at that point was to reunite with her brother. 

I like the conversations between Dean and Amara, even when the words they say don't always make sense.  Whenever they are together, it is like they are in a dream, or like they are the only two people in the universe. There is an air of intense intimacy when they talk, and this feeling that somehow there is another conversation going on underneath those words that only they can hear. There is a unique bond between them -- not a romantic one, although it might look that way superficially. I think it is interesting to watch.

I think if Amara had readily agreed to help them imprison her brother, that would have become the plan. It would give them a better chance of saving everyone than they have with their current plan. But Amara feels that what Dean is asking is something that she can't give, although at the end she does say that she will think about it. If not, I wonder if Dean actually could hurt Amara -- he's never been able to before.

In any case, in that conversation I felt just a tiny spark of interest for once in this season. One thing that has been missing for me with Billie's plan for Jack is the importance of the Winchesters in the scheme of things -- supposedly their role is to be "messengers", not principal actors, and the things they have been doing could be done by any character in the story. But Dean talking to Amara the way he does -- that is something that Jack can't do. It is literally something no one else in the universe could do. And that's the kind of show I'm here for. We'll see if it is anything more than a temporary glitch.

Could you direct me to the episode that the Amara quote about propaganda and a more perfect creation.

Just now, Terese said:

Could you direct me to the episode that contains the Amara quote about propaganda and a more perfect creation?

 

[Bergamot]

8 minutes ago, Terese said:

Could you direct me to the episode that the Amara quote about propaganda and a more perfect creation.

Sorry! It was "O Brother Where Art Thou?"

[Gbb]

6 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Saving people, hunting things?

No, that would just be Supernatural without Sam and Dean. And there was no supernatural element to the case they solved. I’m wondering if the threat of monsters will somehow end with the series. Depending on what happens with Chuck and Amara, Cas might have nowhere else to go. (“No hell below us. Above us only sky?”) I’m not saying it’s a good idea for a pilot 😉 

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

To put the "His universe. His rules" quote in context, it was part of a conversation where they are actually talking about religion and the way Chuck has set himself up to be worshiped in this world, and how some people find comfort in following his rules. Amara is incredulous about this. (Remember Amara talking to the priest about God? "Wait. So only dead people get to see him?  And this makes sense, to billions of you?") The whole thing makes Amara furious because she considers it to be "propaganda" against herself. And she has her own idea of what  the "perfect creation" would be like.

 

Anyway, with the world about to end due to Amara's rage against Chuck, Dean's approach was never to insist that Amara must behave herself because Chuck was in charge, end of discussion -- as if that would ever work. What finally got through to her of course was to ask her "What do you want?" -- to make her realize what she really wanted at that point was to reunite with her brother. 

I like the conversations between Dean and Amara, even when the words they say don't always make sense.  Whenever they are together, it is like they are in a dream, or like they are the only two people in the universe. There is an air of intense intimacy when they talk, and this feeling that somehow there is another conversation going on underneath those words that only they can hear. There is a unique bond between them -- not a romantic one, although it might look that way superficially. I think it is interesting to watch.

I think if Amara had readily agreed to help them imprison her brother, that would have become the plan. It would give them a better chance of saving everyone than they have with their current plan. But Amara feels that what Dean is asking is something that she can't give, although at the end she does say that she will think about it. If not, I wonder if Dean actually could hurt Amara -- he's never been able to before.

In any case, in that conversation I felt just a tiny spark of interest for once in this season. One thing that has been missing for me with Billie's plan for Jack is the importance of the Winchesters in the scheme of things -- supposedly their role is to be "messengers", not principal actors, and the things they have been doing could be done by any character in the story. But Dean talking to Amara the way he does -- that is something that Jack can't do. It is literally something no one else in the universe could do. And that's the kind of show I'm here for. We'll see if it is anything more than a temporary glitch.

Thank you!

This is exactly how I felt about that one little scene, too.

And also about the Dean and Amara relationship/connection.

After watching again, IMO, the dialogue remains horrendous and full of attempted retcons as regards the resurrected Mary character and storyline. I hated that with the fire of ten thousand suns, and always will, but Jensen played it as if he understood what she, being a clueless to humans supernatural entity, was trying to do in bringing Mary back, even if it backfired colossally causing him even more pain(and AFAIC, Badd and Perez can both suck it with that "Now is always better than Then." line. And Jensen left enough there with his anger afterwards by calling her just another superpowered dick so that I can easily believe that Dean doesn't buy it either-not by a long shot).

And his anger afterwards was such a refreshing and glorious thing to see again. He still has that fire in his belly over what's happened to him and his family in their lives that no other character on this show has ever been able to even come close to projecting or portraying for me. And to learn that it's still there, stronger than ever, was the best thing that's happened this season for this fan, too.

I don't think that he's going to hurt Amara without her knowing everything first either. And even if he has to let it happen and someone else has to do it, it will bring him no joy at all. 

All that from that one little scene-and in spite of the shit writing-is why I can't wait to see what Jensen can do with better writing.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Myrelle
Typos

[bethy]

Man. The CW app is not great. I've been trying for a couple of days to watch this episode, but can't get the stream to work consistently. Or maybe it's just mad that I keep fast-forwarding through any scene that doesn't have Dean or Sam in it. I've gotten as far as Amara popping up at the convenience station. Thoughts so far:

• Misha's two acting choices of "pissy" or "befuddled" are just tiresome to me. 
• I'm surprised they didn't have Cas say "Chief?" when he asked for Sam's approval on the case. 🙄 
• I did like: Sam: "Pork rinds?" Dean: "Pork rinds!" In my mind that means that Sam likes pork rinds, too. I refuse to buy into the "Sam only eats salads" narrative. 

Is there any chance the Dean/Amara scene is online anywyere? I'd like to see that, but I'm not sure the CW is going to let me. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

Is there any chance the Dean/Amara scene is online anywyere? I'd like to see that, but I'm not sure the CW is going to let me.

The Dean/Amara scene starts at 1:50

 

[Terese]

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Sorry! It was "O Brother Where Art Thou?"

I'll have to rewatch that episode tonight. I don't remember anything about "propaganda" or "perfect creation" so, I am having difficulty accepting the quote.

I do know she is destruction and Chuck is creation.  A point made throughout and repeated again by Amara, herself, in Gimme Shelter. She also told Rowena that her "tastes run towards the catastrophic. I'm not seeing her creating anything.

I'm  assuming your quote from Dean about your "brother going all Kayne(you mean Cain?) while blowing his horn," was in the same episode?

Anyway, I'll rewatch and see what's what.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Terese

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, Terese said:

I'll have to rewatch that episode tonight. I don't remember anything about "propaganda" or "perfect creation" so, I am having difficulty accepting the quote.

I do know she is destruction and Chuck is creation.  A point made throughout and repeated again by Amara, herself, in Gimme Shelter. She also told Rowena that her "tastes run towards the catastrophic. I'm not seeing her creating anything. 

Anyway, I'll rewatch and see what's what.

What @Bergamot posted is from a transcript of the actual episode. How is that difficult to accept?

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/11.09_O_Brother_Where_Art_Thou%3F_(transcript)

Amara: It’s incredible. How it endures, the propaganda. He was so threatened by me, fearful that I would make a more perfect creation than he. So, he exiled me. Virtually erased me. Passed on stories that I was a threat.

So I guess it wasn't just OG Death who 'told them what they needed to hear'.

Or, it was ret-conned to fit whatever whichever writer is pulling out of their butt this week.

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Terese]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

What @Bergamot posted is from a transcript of the actual episode. How is that difficult to accept?

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/11.09_O_Brother_Where_Art_Thou%3F_(transcript)

I'll watch it from my DVD tonight. It is difficult to accept simply because the Kayne comment and the creation comment don't jive with my memory or the very nature of Amara. I'd like to also watch the entire episode for context.

[bethy]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

The Dean/Amara scene starts at 1:50

 

THANK YOU!!!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Terese said:

I'll watch it from my DVD tonight. It is difficult to accept simply because the Kayne comment and the creation comment don't jive with my memory or the very nature of Amara. I'd like to also watch the entire episode for context.

I'll post the scene in the All Episodes thread. It's the clip from YouTube. It's as exactly as the transcript.

[Terese]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'll post the scene in the All Episodes thread. It's the clip from YouTube. It's as exactly as the transcript.

Just watched the episode. She did in fact say that.

11 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Sorry! It was "O Brother Where Art Thou?"

Just watched the episode. She did in fact say that.

[tessathereaper]

On 10/17/2020 at 4:04 PM, Terese said:

The science matters to me simply because this show doesn't take place inside a comic book. When you have writers and a showrunner changing fundamental the properties of the universe, anything and everything goes.

Yes but in my opinion, it doesn't matter really.  It's fantasy, so fantasy rules.  The main importance is that rules within the secondary universe(the universe within the fictional story) are consistent within themselves.  Which is why the idea is that no, you can't just write anything and go "well it's fiction so what".  Not because it has to live by the same rules as our world but because it has to live by it's own rules.  If a law of that universe is going to change, once it's been established, then as much thought and explanation needs to go into how and why it is happening as it would writing a new law in this one.  Basically they have to abide by their own canon.  The writers can't just go "It's fiction I do what I want" once they've already established rules within their universe. Well they can, but the point is, it's bad writing.

Now Supernatural does a heck of a lot of NOT being consistent within it's own secondary universe - "Canon? What Canon?" 

[Terese]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Yes but in my opinion, it doesn't matter really.  It's fantasy, so fantasy rules.  The main importance is that rules within the secondary universe(the universe within the fictional story) are consistent within themselves.  Which is why the idea is that no, you can't just write anything and go "well it's fiction so what".  Not because it has to live by the same rules as our world but because it has to live by it's own rules.  If a law of that universe is going to change, once it's been established, then as much thought and explanation needs to go into how and why it is happening as it would writing a new law in this one.  Basically they have to abide by their own canon.  The writers can't just go "It's fiction I do what I want" once they've already established rules within their universe. Well they can, but the point is, it's bad writing.

Now Supernatural does a heck of a lot of NOT being consistent within it's own secondary universe - "Canon? What Canon?" 

Very good points! I guess I am not a huge fantasy fan. Which probably seems like a huge contradiction given I have loved Supernatural, Lost and my favorite book is Lord of the Rings. Creating believable worlds is key, though.

I can't accept the premise of Spiderman, by example, because a radioactive spider would not survive, and how exactly did it transfer spidey powers?

Same thing with Superman being able to both fly, which would mean he is weaker, and bend steel which would mean he is stronger. Although, I can enjoy the stories, at least as when I was a child.

It doesn't have to be entirely plausible, only possible. Given the genre, I think Supernatural has done an extraordinary job, for the most part, keeping things possible. Untill fairly recently,  that is. I think it has become overwhelmed with incredulous devices and spells, and overly simplistic or inaccurate explanations ,starting with Lucifer trapping gadgets. And it doesn't obey it's own rules, anymore. It absolutely required archangel grace, not regular angel grace to open a rift. Car gasoline, absolutely will not power the jet. So, in the episode with the dpplegangers, regular angel grace will do the trick. That is ike saying a short jet trip can be accomplished with gasoline. It wouldn't fire those engines.

So, for me, it becomes ridiculous and pulls me out. Removing light matter or simply matter from the universe, which gives it form and substance, and removing dark matter, which is either viewed by the writers as a black hole or anti matter which causes expansion, will cause the universe to collapse. 

Then it all becomes even more ridiculous. Supernatural is not a comic book. Strangely grounded and possible has become unbelievable  And everything has become so easy, because of it.

 

 

1 minute ago, Terese said:

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Terese

[Aeryn13]

5 hours ago, Terese said:

Just watched the episode. She did in fact say that.

Just watched the episode. She did in fact say that.

Why would someone post fake transcripts or fake quotes from transcripts after all? You couldn't pay me to transcribe entire episodes but the ones you can find online are reliable.

[Terese]

46 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why would someone post fake transcripts or fake quotes from transcripts after all? You couldn't pay me to transcribe entire episodes but the ones you can find online are reliable.

I never thought anyone here posted fake transcripts, nor was I thinking along those lines. I just wanted to know the episode and watch it. The quotes seemed to flat out contradict everything otherwise stipulated,  even by the character, herself. I probably dismissed it at the time as Amara's propaganda, as she has been characterized by others, as well as by herself, as destruction, the antithesis of creation. Even referred to herself as such in this episode. 

By profession, I am an historian; I always want to see primary documents, and the context in which such events took place. 

I also noted that episode was Buck/Lemming. They do tend to write whatever and without adhering to...well, just about everything.

And yeah, I worked as a Congressional Reporter years ago. Thank goodness, I didn't have to transcribe those hearings. 

[Smad]

10 hours ago, Terese said:

So, for me, it becomes ridiculous and pulls me out. Removing light matter or simply matter from the universe, which gives it form and substance, and removing dark matter, which is either viewed by the writers as a black hole or anti matter which causes expansion, will cause the universe to collapse.

The constant new-canon just brings up more questions. The big bang created the universe but did it also create the multiverse? The big bang was so powerful it created multiple universes? I don't buy that. And it needed both of them to create the multiverse via big bang but it takes only one of them to wipe out a universe?

What do you even need Amara for as a character or concept? You don't need Destruction separately when God is Creation+Destruction all rolled into one. If God can wipe out entire universes then what's the point of Amara? If she herself can create (which was mentioned in S11) then why hasn't she? Or why hasn't she thought to destroy some things in this universe? Why hasn't anyone asked her if she can? Imagine if she destroyed purgatory, monsters would be gone from Earth for good. If she could ensure the closing of hell at least in one direction (nothing gets out), no more demons or ghosts roaming the Earth. Maybe do the same to heaven. Hunters could retire and humans would never fall to monsters or demons again.

[Terese]

1 minute ago, Smad said:

The constant new-canon just brings up more questions. The big bang created the universe but did it also create the multiverse? The big bang was so powerful it created multiple universes? I don't buy that. And it needed both of them to create the multiverse via big bang but it takes only one of them to wipe out a universe?

What do you even need Amara for as a character or concept? You don't need Destruction separately when God is Creation+Destruction all rolled into one. If God can wipe out entire universes then what's the point of Amara? If she herself can create (which was mentioned in S11) then why hasn't she? Or why hasn't she thought to destroy some things in this universe? Why hasn't anyone asked her if she can? Imagine if she destroyed purgatory, monsters would be gone from Earth for good. If she could ensure the closing of hell at least in one direction (nothing gets out), no more demons or ghosts roaming the Earth. Maybe do the same to heaven. Hunters could retire and humans would never fall to monsters or demons again.

I love your questions. And they made me laugh. I felt upon revisit of Amara's comment in season 11, that having the ability to create was her propaganda or Buck/Lemming having completely failed in understanding the concept of the Darkness. I was surprised that Chuck can destroy and felt that may have explained why he put Leviathan in Purgatory. I would have been equally surprised if Amara could create. But that was then. Maybe?!? Because Amara was very clear about Chuck being creation and she destruction, over peirogis. 

I thought the multiverses would be the natural occurrence of conflicting human choices, born of dilemma, that had to be played out somewhere. Mary had to make that deal. Mary could not make that deal. Bobby shot his father. Bobby could not bring himself to shoot his father. Instead it was failed drafts and shallow nonsense. 

Honestly, I don't think they know and just wing it from writer to writer. I don't know what their point even is. And as you say new canon puts a wrench in everything. It leaves no room for speculation and reasonable theory, or anticipation of how it will all come out. When what was true yesterday, is not true today, tomorrow gets lost. 

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Terese said:

Because Amara was very clear about Chuck being creation and she destruction, over peirogis. 

She was just as clear in S11, when the character was created, that she came first and Chuck locked her away. Even if you take the sibling rivalry, he said/she said, the canon was made clear. She was locked away because she was destroying Chuck's creations. None of this nonsense that the universe came into being when 'the twins' were separated. It wasn't just Death telling Dean what he needed to hear. It was Death, Chuck, and Amara, for a whole season. Science and the Big Bang have nothing to do with it - crap writing and a showrunner who doesn't give a single fuck about the show and its canon does. 

[Smad]

40 minutes ago, Terese said:

I felt upon revisit of Amara's comment in season 11, that having the ability to create was her propaganda or Buck/Lemming having completely failed in understanding the concept of the Darkness. I was surprised that Chuck can destroy and felt that may have explained why he put Leviathan in Purgatory. I would have been equally surprised if Amara could create. But that was then. Maybe?!? Because Amara was very clear about Chuck being creation and she destruction, over peirogis.

Well sure it might have been propaganda or stupid writers but Amara can create up to a point. After all Mary was ashes in the wind and was re-created by Amara. Unless God was able to read his sisters mind and he was the one who brought Mary back but that was never insinuated by the text. Who knows. But I absolutely agree on purgatory. I thought the reason God couldn't get rid of the Levis (since that would be easier and safer for his experimentation) was because he couldn't really destroy what he created. Just create something else to put them in. But now that God is one mean destruction machine (he could have just destroyed Levi's), it makes Amara as a concept and character totally pointless.

50 minutes ago, Terese said:

I thought the multiverses would be the natural occurrence of conflicting human choices, born of dilemma, that had to be played out somewhere. Mary had to make that deal. Mary could not make that deal. Bobby shot his father. Bobby could not bring himself to shoot his father. Instead it was failed drafts and shallow nonsense. 

But that's not really how it was or how it worked. Nothing comes into existence in this world without God creating it. When Amara was locked away, there was only the prime universe. That universe already existed without a big bang because we know God was creating then and Amara was smashing it up. Arch-Angels existed because they helped lock Amara away. And if there needs to be a world for every opposite choice taken, then we are talking trillions of alternate universes. And it wouldn't start with humans or just a select few of humans. If it's something natural that has to be played out somewhere, then it would start all the way back when God started creation. Because even God's choices would need a world where the opposite is played out (for example a world where the Levis were not contained and instead ran amok).

[Terese]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

Well sure it might have been propaganda or stupid writers but Amara can create up to a point. After all Mary was ashes in the wind and was re-created by Amara. Unless God was able to read his sisters mind and he was the one who brought Mary back but that was never insinuated by the text. Who knows. But I absolutely agree on purgatory. I thought the reason God couldn't get rid of the Levis (since that would be easier and safer for his experimentation) was because he couldn't really destroy what he created. Just create something else to put them in. But now that God is one mean destruction machine (he could have just destroyed Levi's), it makes Amara as a concept and character totally pointless.

But that's not really how it was or how it worked. Nothing comes into existence in this world without God creating it. When Amara was locked away, there was only the prime universe. That universe already existed without a big bang because we know God was creating then and Amara was smashing it up. Arch-Angels existed because they helped lock Amara away. And if there needs to be a world for every opposite choice taken, then we are talking trillions of alternate universes. And it wouldn't start with humans or just a select few of humans. If it's something natural that has to be played out somewhere, then it would start all the way back when God started creation. Because even God's choices would need a world where the opposite is played out (for example a world where the Levis were not contained and instead ran amok).

I didn't mean any old choice. I was referring to the impossible choices, the true dilemmas, the ones where the heart and mind absolutely cannot come to a consensus. The kind where the spirit would actually split in the struggle.

Amara capable of a kind of creation, is possible. I don't know. As you have me thinking about this, I envision a whole different conversation.

"Well, Dean, the thing is...I didn't actually bring your mother back. I can present the form, just not the the substance. Only, my brother can do that. I was anxious to get to Las Vegas and didn't want to waste time consulting with Chuck and him taking the time to deal with your mom's soul. So, she didn't have one."

Yeah, what they have done with Chuck, not only confuses the situation, but so much of what the show was about; free will and responsibility.

 

[Katy M]

57 minutes ago, Terese said:

I didn't mean any old choice. I was referring to the impossible choices, the true dilemmas, the ones where the heart and mind absolutely cannot come to a consensus. The kind where the spirit would actually split in the struggle.

When the AU first appeared, I posited that maybe there was a split every time there was a Crossroads deal.

[Terese]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

When the AU first appeared, I posited that maybe there was a split every time there was a Crossroads deal.

Oh, interesting! Something organic. How would that be? Like the soul is no longer firmly attached and is free to wander?

[Katy M]

20 minutes ago, Terese said:

Oh, interesting! Something organic. How would that be? Like the soul is no longer firmly attached and is free to wander?

I don't think I put that much thought into exactly how it would work.  Just the universe splits and in one the deal was made and in the other it was not.  All the people in both universes still have their souls.  Kind of like a carbon copy is made and proceeds differently from that point.

[Terese]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think I put that much thought into exactly how it would work.  Just the universe splits and in one the deal was made and in the other it was not.  All the people in both universes still have their souls.  Kind of like a carbon copy is made and proceeds differently from that point.

Good and evil

[trudysmom]

On 10/16/2020 at 6:20 PM, catrox14 said:

Crossroads demons have always had red eyes

Oh yeah. Heh the moment of continunity threw me off.