MAFS Social Media, Spoilers & Speculation

[ctbabe]

12 minutes ago, HZAnita said:

Yes.  Tom's father abandoned him when he was a child.  But I don't know if they'd reconciled. IIRC, only Heather and Sonia had their dads at their weddings.  Nick had his mom's boyfriend with the teeth and reasonable Unfiltered question ("Why didn't they ask about dogs?")

Nick had his dad at the wedding. 

[Kiss my mutt]

You know you can't be a successful luxury yacht interior designer without a nice station wagon. 

[Nowhere]

I wasn't necessarily planning on doing any Tom bashing today but there will be no moratorium here. He didn't care enough about his father to not air his dirty laundry on television but he has the nerve to tweet about his death to gain sympathy. 

His tweet seems to backpedal now that he's dead, "We never had a really good relationship but we tried our best to salvage it." Really? That would have been nice to mention to your wife. Yes your dad left but you guys are trying to mend things. Instead he says he was an abandoned child and doesn't bring up that maybe his dad knows he fucked up and was trying to deal with it. Now that he's dead he wants to act like he gives a shit. 

Im so snarky today and possibly I'm going to hell, but I have a lot of family that I no longer talk to and won't talk to me. I always say that if I die they are not welcome at my funeral. If they can't respect me in life then they aren't going to boohoo over me in death just so they can get sympathy for themselves. I feel like that's what Tom is doing. 

What's up with Lily's father? Isn't she claiming abandonment also but as an adult? I find that to be extra ridiculous. She's an adult. It's a two way street. Does anyone know that story?

[humbleopinion]

Lily's father divorced her mother and abandoned Lily and her sisters.

He has another family and continues to be out of their lives so the abandonment continues.

 

 

Self imposed moratoriums are hard to keep...

Easier to declare myself a hypocrite...free!

Are 2003 model year Volvo station wagons less pretentious than late model Volvos?

[BonnieLass]

This may have been posted last month, but I'm just now seeing it. I think it explains Heather's attitude/lack of trying.

Here's the quote:

"Q: Were you nervous going on a journey like this, especially one that would be so public? 

Heather: I have been nervous about the television aspect through the entire process. I am a fairly private person so needless to say, it’s been a challenge for me. I think the only way I actually started the application was bc in the back of my mind I never thought I would be chosen."

Link to the entire article: http://www.realmrhousewife.com/2016/07/26/married-at-first-sight-season-4-women-speak-exclusive/

In my mind, this fits perfectly with what I've been thinking about Heather the entire time. She had that "deer in headlights" look pre-wedding. She didn't seem excited like Sonia and Lillian did. Even during her bachelorette party, she seemed down/depressed. What was it she said - 'this time tomorrow I'll be married', accompanied by an eye roll? That was a red flag and told me she wasn't really committed to the process. Now we know why - she never expected to be picked. She probably felt like she was just going along for the ride.

Edited August 26, 2016 by BonnieLass

[Nowhere]

11 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

Lily's father divorced her mother and abandoned Lily and her sisters.

He has another family and continues to be out of their lives so the abandonment continues.

I guess I was asking because I thought I remembered Tom saying that his dad left when he was a child and she said hers left when she was an adult. I don't see that as abandonment. Tom was abandoned because he was a child. Lily would be estranged from her father but not abandoned. The wording is what gets me. That's just my opinion of course but I think people use certain words to garner sympathy and exaggerate their plight.

[cardigirl]

4 hours ago, ctbabe said:

Tom said he lives 5mins away from the beach.. very vague response 

Heather checked out on day 2, not day 5. 

http://www.fyi.tv/shows/married-at-first-sight/videos/pastor-calvin-is-blunt-with-heather-and-derek

Go Pastor Calvin!!!!!

[HZAnita]

3 hours ago, ctbabe said:

Nick had his dad at the wedding. 

I guess Nick inherited his scintillating personality from his father because I have absolutely no recollection of his dad. lol

[Jack Sampson]

5 hours ago, ctbabe said:

Tom said he lives 5mins away from the beach.. very vague response 

Heather checked out on day 2, not day 5. 

http://www.fyi.tv/shows/married-at-first-sight/videos/pastor-calvin-is-blunt-with-heather-and-derek

Busgate 

http://www.fyi.tv/shows/married-at-first-sight/videos/tom-shows-lillian-his-unconventional-home

Calvin: "Are you committed to staying in this marriage?"

Heather: "I don't know how to answer that right now."

How about honestly for a change, you dour bitch?  Derek's absolutely right, she was never committed - she gave up on day 2 and she's been looking for a way to blame Derek ever since.  That's largely the fault of the experts for not noticing that this ex(?)partygirl wasn't ready to commit to marriage.

[ctbabe]

I forgot to post the last video. Derek was really hurt. Such a sad situation. 

http://www.fyi.tv/shows/married-at-first-sight/videos/derek-and-heathers-honeymoon-is-definitely-over

[humbleopinion]

Derek is a sadder sack than David.

[cecig75]

3 hours ago, BonnieLass said:

 

Link to the entire article: http://www.realmrhousewife.com/2016/07/26/married-at-first-sight-season-4-women-speak-exclusive/

In my mind, this fits perfectly with what I've been thinking about Heather the entire time. She had that "deer in headlights" look pre-wedding. She didn't seem excited like Sonia and Lillian did. Even during her bachelorette party, she seemed down/depressed. What was it she said - 'this time tomorrow I'll be married', accompanied by an eye roll? That was a red flag and told me she wasn't really committed to the process. Now we know why - she never expected to be picked. She probably felt like she was just going along for the ride.

She could've have said thanks, but no thanks. She had to know what this show was about and she would have cameras following her for 6 weeks. If I was paranoid about that, I would've never signed up for an experiment like this.

The truth is she doesn't like Derrick. I was really trying to like her...there's only so much you can blame editing for. Let us not forget Ashley and Ryan D. 

I know people love to bash Derrick and the other guys, pick on Sonia and Lillian's looks, and even talk about Heather's resting b%*&^ face, but we have to remember this is all for ratings.

I recently met someone who has ties to reality tv and was contacted by an agent to be one of the eligible suitors for Vanessa's dating show. The agent went over how many dates he would be required to go on and how he would be compensated, but he declined because he's looking for real love. 

It proves we are watching Days of Our Lives mixed with a little Bachelor...

Edited August 27, 2016 by cecig75
didn't like the original sentence

[Babyitsmb]

11 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

Agree...IMO the only reason someone would all of a sudden want one is they find out there is money or something of worth to keep to themselves and don't want to tell that person out of fear they take it all. IMO Lilly doesn't come off as if she would be like that but in the end you just never know with people I guess. I guess I could have asked for one years later since I had no clue that when my Grandma died she had set up her living trust to give us grandkids part of things at 45. She covered things pretty well in the trust that no one could have it unless we each stated so and who. Otherwise it goes back into the trust and split up again to everyone else still living. Which I have been married to long that I wouldn't even have though to bother or cared to. Yet with this show, like I said, I think its to create drama between them. 

Sam does a blog now too doesn't she? SMH I think Nick is the worse with doing this though. While some got things out of it after the fact, they weren't promoting (aside from Jacklyn) businesses. What they got was after the shows and they would have had no clue those things were to come. IMO though it comes off in VERY bad light seeing people promote their businesses and that is when you start to question the person's motive. 

Honestly unless we see it we have no clue. Sure we know it covers what comes in since its been said but I bet if they ask to cover anything during the show that it would be as well since they could be working their everyday jobs on top of filming and probably wouldn't want to share even that. I just call this all created drama though.

my friend lost his business because he thought he had a prenup but the business took off during the marriage so yeah you got to be careful

[Babyitsmb]

1 hour ago, cecig75 said:

She could've have said thanks, but no thanks. She had to know what this show was about and she would have cameras following her for 6 weeks. If I was paranoid about that, I would've never signed up for an experiment like this.

The truth is she doesn't like Derrick. I was really trying to like her...there's only so much you can blame editing for. Let us not forget Ashley and Ryan D. 

I know people love to bash Derrick and the other guys, pick on Sonia and Lillian's looks, and even talk about Heather's resting b%*&^ face, but we have to remember this is all for ratings.

I recently met someone who has ties to reality tv and was contacted by an agent to be one of the eligible suitors for Vanessa's dating show. The agent went over how many dates he would be required to go on and how he would be compensated, but he declined because he's looking for real love. 

It proves we are watching Days of Our Lives mixed with a little Bachelor...

My friend went through the process for the first season of married at first sight he had to go through 5 interviews a 100 question questionnaire a full background check and another full meeting explaining the show to him it was impressive he ended up deciding after all that the show wasn't for him but he did tell me they were serious about what they were doing and it didn't seem like they were picking the best looking to be on the cast even though he was kinda wealthy 

At the end of the day the experts have to get the matching right you can cast the best people ever but if the experts don't match them with anything your not going to get the credit 

Edited August 27, 2016 by mbarry

[ctbabe]

2 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Derek is a sadder sack than David.

What's a sad sack? Are men not suppose to be sad? 

I remember last season when David had a crying episode, a lot of people called him a cry baby. 

Nick isn't showing any emotion and people are so quick to tag him as a robot. 

Derek is saying how he feels and people are saying he is insecure. He also showed frustration and anger which IMO is totally justifiable and people are saying he has violent tendencies or might be an abuser. 

When did men become minigods that can't have feelings? Or why is it wrong for a man to express his self? Hmmmm

[Jack Sampson]

3 minutes ago, ctbabe said:

What's a sad sack? Are men not suppose to be sad? 

I remember last season when David had a crying episode, a lot of people called him a cry baby. 

Nick isn't showing any emotion and people are so quick to tag him as a robot. 

Derek is saying how he feels and people are saying he is insecure. He also showed frustration and anger which IMO is totally justifiable and people are saying he has violent tendencies or might be an abuser. 

When did men become minigods that can't have feelings? Or why is it wrong for a man to express his self? Hmmmm

Well, we aren't talking about a man who lost his wife of 20 years in a car accident.  He's a guy who was matched with a partygirl burnout and was essentially on 3-5 dates...and he doesn't even like her.  He might be overreacting a bit. 

[humbleopinion]

Derek is so utterly defeated so early in the process, much much earlier than David.

Just an observation. Nothing more.

[ctbabe]

1 hour ago, Jack Sampson said:

Well, we aren't talking about a man who lost his wife of 20 years in a car accident.  He's a guy who was matched with a partygirl burnout and was essentially on 3-5 dates...and he doesn't even like her.  He might be overreacting a bit. 

He definitely likes her. Of course he was trying to get his mancard back by denying it. 

25 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

Derek is so utterly defeated so early in the process, much much earlier than David.

Just an observation. Nothing more.

I think David was faking it even though he knew she didn't like him. 

[1992austenlover]

4 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

Derek is so utterly defeated so early in the process, much much earlier than David.

Just an observation. Nothing more.

Derek kind of reminds me of both Neil and Sam from last season. At times, he has Neil's optimism and laid-back personality...but then the next minute he is spouting provocative phrases like "when we get a divorce" and randomly talking about how Heather is no "spring chicken" (whatever the hell that means lol) simply because he is frustrated that she is not attracted to him. There's this side of him that kind of reminds me of Sam--and I'm referring to the thoughtless, unstable, "Oh I'm committed to the marriage but I'm going to prove it to you by cutting you down with my words" Sam that we saw during the first four weeks of the experiment. Sometimes Derek says things in the heat of the moment that are a little below the belt and which you shouldn't say to someone who you are attempting to foster a longterm relationship with--and to me, his actions suggest that though he definitely did care about making the marriage work, he doesn't have the patience or the level-headedness required in this situation to potentially achieve the end goal. 

 Granted, the situations are very different as Neil never deserved Sam's barrage of abuse while it is clear that Heather has already given up on the marriage...but I suppose it doesn't matter as both outcomes are likely going to the be the same anyways (ie. ending in divorce). I agree that Derek is defeated and given his wife's attitude, I don't blame him for shutting down either. 

Sadly, I think that they have both already thrown in the towel. 

[Jack Sampson]

24 minutes ago, ctbabe said:

He definitely likes her. Of course he was trying to get his mancard back by denying it. 

I think David was faking it even though he knew she didn't like him. 

No he doesn't, he just wants to have sex with her.  There's nothing likable about Heather but she still has a decent body for her age.

[Zuleikha]

How did he think he was going to find someone who has his same philosophy on a show like this when he can't find someone IRL? I hope Lily has the cojones to stand up to him.

Because the show presents itself as having experts who comb through trying to make perfect matches. If he could do it IRL, why would he need the experts?

I like to bag on the show as a farce because it is. But it's easy for me to say that because I'm not being given a sales pitch to buy into it and because I'm aware of all 3 seasons. IIRC, this group was cast before last season revealed itself to be 0 for 3, so if they were even familiar with the results, they would have had one season with 2 out of 3 matches and one garbage season. Plus, there were new experts. So I can totally see people getting convinced to trust that the experts could do a better job.

That's why I hate judging participants as fakers based on their not having enthusiasm after meeting their match, especially when the match is genuinely a bad fit. Entering the process sincerely doesn't mean they're going to be happy with their match when the match is both a bad fit and makes them realize that they've been lied to by the show. 

[ctbabe]

I am probably going to offend people with my comment.

Before I got married, I said worse  thIngs to myself whenever I get dumped by my exs. There might have been a time when i wished all men to die? Was i hoping my dad and brother would die? No. Was I thinking about them in that scenario? No. Does that make it right? No. Does that make me evil or terrible? No. It was definitely coming from a place of anger and hurt. Did I still marry a man? Yes. It was just unfortunate that his lowest moment was recorded on camera. 

The 'no spring chick' comment is a regular saying in my country meaning she isn't all that. 

Edited August 27, 2016 by ctbabe

[jenrising]

Calling her no spring chicken is calling her old. Which is ridiculous. She's 32.

[Neurochick]

13 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Go Pastor Calvin!!!!!

I agree.  Pastor Calvin is right, the thing is, nobody forced either of them to do this, they were both told this was an actual marriage and the only way out is divorce.  It's true, ultimately, you are the one responsible for your own happiness.

Heather's problem IMO is that she should not have been on this show.  It's like she just realized what this show is about, she just realized what's happened.  

[ctbabe]

1 hour ago, jenrising said:

Calling her no spring chicken is calling her old. Which is ridiculous. She's 32.

I said in my country. The spring chick analogy is used for ladies in their late 20s too. I asked my husband and he said it means the lady isn't all that. 

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, ctbabe said:

I am probably going to offend people with my comment.

Before I got married, I said worse  thIngs to myself whenever I get dumped by my exs. There might have been a time when i wished all men to die? Was i hoping my dad and brother would die? No. Was I thinking about them in that scenario? No. Does that make it right? No. Does that make me evil or terrible? No. It was definitely coming from a place of anger and hurt. Did I still marry a man? Yes. It was just unfortunate that his lowest moment was recorded on camera. 

The 'no spring chick' comment is a regular saying in my country meaning she isn't all that. 

I'm not offended because people do say things to themselves and to friends, when they are upset.  Sometimes today I feel we don't allow people to get upset, to go off.  Every word, every gesture has to "mean" something; I just think people are more complicated than that.  If something's part of a pattern, that's one thing, but in Derek's case we don't know that yet.

[ctbabe]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I'm not offended because people do say things to themselves and to friends, when they are upset.  Sometimes today I feel we don't allow people to get upset, to go off.  Every word, every gesture has to "mean" something; I just think people are more complicated than that.  If something's part of a pattern, that's one thing, but in Derek's case we don't know that yet.

I totally agree. 

[humbleopinion]

For the sake of conversation...

Can this faux marriage between Heather and Derek be saved until the Decision Show?

Or why should this show marriage be saved?

Will the producers let them walk away from the show? Yeah, right...

[1992austenlover]

6 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

For the sake of conversation...

Can this faux marriage between Heather and Derek be saved until the Decision Show?

Or why should this show marriage be saved?

Will the producers let them walk away from the show? Yeah, right...

I don't think it can be saved because Heather is Ashley and Derek is no David. David was the one who kept the ship afloat for awhile even though he had boarded the Titanic with Ashley. Given that both Heather and Derek are checked out of the marriage and clearly don't like/respect each other, I can see them deciding to not prolong the inevitable and just head for separate life boats before either one of them can get too emotionally involved.  

[Babyitsmb]

Derek and Heather I think ends on epd 8 or 9

[Jellybeans]

1 minute ago, mbarry said:

Derek and Heather I think ends on epd 8 or 9

How do you know?  I believe you but am wondering...

[Evil Queen]

12 hours ago, mbarry said:

my friend lost his business because he thought he had a prenup but the business took off during the marriage so yeah you got to be careful

Sorry but I would think a person would know if they have a prenup or not. You can't just think you had one when its something you have to go over and sign. 

3 hours ago, jenrising said:

Calling her no spring chicken is calling her old. Which is ridiculous. She's 32.

2 hours ago, ctbabe said:

I said in my country. The spring chick analogy is used for ladies in their late 20s too. I asked my husband and he said it means the lady isn't all that. 

Spring chicken has always meant someone that was old/older and not young anymore. I have never heard it mean anything else. I don't get the lady isn't all that from it or ever heard it used for someone in their 20s or 30s even. So not sure where whoever in your country got that from. But agree calling her old was ridiculous...more so when he is 35.

 

26 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

How do you know?  I believe you but am wondering...

Only way would be if its hinted at in episode listings. 

[ctbabe]

28 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

How do you know?  I believe you but am wondering...

the episode guide for the upper episode talks about Derek and Heather making a decision to stay married or divorce. 

[Jack Sampson]

1 minute ago, ctbabe said:

the episode guide for the upper episode talks about Derek and Heather making a decision to stay married or divorce. 

I say they stay married, they really seem nice together.

[HZAnita]

1 minute ago, Jack Sampson said:

I say they stay married, they really seem nice together.

Are you missing a /sarcasm tag? lol

[ctbabe]

26 minutes ago, HZAnita said:

Are you missing a /sarcasm tag? lol

Of course he is being sarcastic. I think they are both done. 

[crazychicken]

This is the FYI listing for episode 7 so unless the do cliffhanger for the obvious then I say it all over without them even moving in together.

[jenrising]

4 hours ago, ctbabe said:

I said in my country. The spring chick analogy is used for ladies in their late 20s too. I asked my husband and he said it means the lady isn't all that. 

And I said here, where I and Derek who said it live, this is what that means. 

[crazychicken]

Scrap that they make it to episode 8 according to TvGuide

[ctbabe]

14 minutes ago, crazychicken said:

Scrap that they make it to episode 8 according to TvGuide

Really??? So they continued... hmmmmm.. Maybe Heather would give it a chance 

[crazychicken]

1 minute ago, ctbabe said:

Really??? So they continued... hmmmmm.. Maybe Heather would give it a chance 

Surprises me as well, considering she checked out day 2 and they do not look like they move in together after the honeymoon I thought that she would choose to bolt at the first opportunity.

 

I am also a bit WTF about Sonia & Nick going to a tantric healer, maybe it will kick start something but he just looks so awkward even kissing her I can't imagine him doing this session well.

[Babyitsmb]

3 hours ago, Jellybeans said:

How do you know?  I believe you but am wondering...

It says on the guide website where it gives you the 9 of the epd and it tells you kinda what the themes of the epd is

57 minutes ago, crazychicken said:

Surprises me as well, considering she checked out day 2 and they do not look like they move in together after the honeymoon I thought that she would choose to bolt at the first opportunity.

 

I am also a bit WTF about Sonia & Nick going to a tantric healer, maybe it will kick start something but he just looks so awkward even kissing her I can't imagine him doing this session well.

We are on epd 6 7 next week so it's not that long

[humbleopinion]

That many MORE episodes?!

Please, please, please no couples therapy.

[stuckin60s]

I am not a fan of Derek, but... I think Heather is horrible.  She does not want to give an inch.  After their fight, he came back to talk, he offered a different point of view.  He also stated that after the smoking discussion, he didn't smoke anymore on the trip.  All she did was repeat herself.  I believe someone said earlier that she wanted to be the head of the couple and no vote for Dereks choice of who is in charge

[humbleopinion]

Heather is reading from the Book of Ashley...

Repeat the same reason over and over and over in the THs.

"He smokes too much" is the new "He cheated."

[Jack Sampson]

1 minute ago, humbleopinion said:

Heather is reading from the Book of Ashley...

Repeat the same reason over and over and over in the THs.

"He smokes too much" is the new "He cheated."

Countdown on when Heather's ulterior motive for being on the show is revealed...3..2..1..

[humbleopinion]

 Tell us Heather's ulterior motives, please.

Guessing it isn't to advertise her upcoming  How to have a Happy Honeymoon Workshop.

Edited August 27, 2016 by humbleopinion
nonsense

[Evil Queen]

2 hours ago, ctbabe said:

Really??? So they continued... hmmmmm.. Maybe Heather would give it a chance 

 

2 hours ago, crazychicken said:

Surprises me as well, considering she checked out day 2 and they do not look like they move in together after the honeymoon I thought that she would choose to bolt at the first opportunity.

 

I am also a bit WTF about Sonia & Nick going to a tantric healer, maybe it will kick start something but he just looks so awkward even kissing her I can't imagine him doing this session well.

Well it figures they have to drag it out and I am sure they told them they better stick it out. It doesn't seem this show let's either just walk away if they aren't feeling it or whatever reason. They are made to stick it out. Look how it was last season, the made Neil stick with abusive Sam and even after Ashley said she wasn't attracted to David she was made to stay. Which IMO is wrong for so many reasons to do this. Especially when after you hear Neil say he had to go see a therapist to deal with it all. 

Agree he is awkward with kissing her. He just is not into her at all. Not sure why the bother of a tantric healer at all. At this point if they can even be friends I think it will be a miracle because it seems he is there to just push his clothing line. 

34 minutes ago, humbleopinion said:

 Tell us Heather's ulterior motives, please.

Guessing it isn't to advertise her upcoming  How to have a Happy Honeymoon Workshop.

I would like to know that too because I don't see it. I find it obvious when these people do have ulterior motives but with her I'd love to know why a couple people think it. Its not going to give her business or help her career since she seems to love being a flight attendant. I don't see her after doing more reality tv or anything of the sort. SMH

[Enero]

2 hours ago, crazychicken said:

I am also a bit WTF about Sonia & Nick going to a tantric healer, maybe it will kick start something but he just looks so awkward even kissing her I can't imagine him doing this session well.

I agree on the WTF. I guess once again the previews for the next episode implied what doesn't actually happen. Or worse they do have sex and never do again due to a lack of sexual chemistry. Shocker. Not. Lol. 

I can't believe Heather and Derek are still hanging on in episode 8. It must be for the money. I wonder if they get compensated if they make it to the end?

It would be hilarious and shocking if they were the only couple that continued on after the show. Not likely, but still, the thought of that happening would make for a great twist on the show.

 

23 minutes ago, Evil Queen said:

 

Agree he is awkward with kissing her. He just is not into her at all. Not sure why the bother of a tantric healer at all. At this point if they can even be friends I think it will be a miracle because it seems he is there to just push his clothing line. 

I agree about the kissing, to a point. Nick IMO wasn't always awkward with the romantic gestures. During and after the wedding, even the first day of their honeymoon he wasn't awkward with the kisses but then things got kind of weird. They even stopped holding hands. Don't know if the producers asked him to do this to bring some drama to their storyline or what. But it was just strange. 

All of that said, I do think Nick and Sonia will become real friends.  They IMO seem the most genuine in their affinity for each other or maybe they're just dam good actors. Lol. 

[Babyitsmb]

9 minutes ago, Enero said:

I agree on the WTF. I guess once again the previews for the next episode implied what doesn't actually happen. Or worse they do have sex and never do again due to a lack of sexual chemistry. Shocker. Not. Lol. 

I can't believe Heather and Derek are still hanging on in episode 8. It must be for the money. I wonder if they get compensated if they make it to the end?

It would be hilarious and shocking if they were the only couple that continued on after the show. Not likely, but still, the thought of that happening would make for a great twist on the show.

 

I agree about the kissing, to a point. Nick IMO wasn't always awkward with the romantic gestures. During and after the wedding, even the first day of their honeymoon he wasn't awkward with the kisses but then things got kind of weird. They even stopped holding hands. Don't know if the producers asked him to do this to bring some drama to their storyline or what. But it was just strange. 

All of that said, I do think Nick and Sonia will become real friends.  They IMO seem the most genuine in their affinity for each other or maybe they're just dam good actors. Lol. 

I'm guessing they will last or atleast stay together on the final she just seems so happy about the experience for it to be a bad outcome and their is little hints here and there