Challenger: The Final Flight - General Discussion

[pigs-in-space]

Is anyone else watching? I've been fascinated by both the Challenger and Columbia disasters for years so I'm looking forward to this.

Preview:

 

[lyric]

This was excellent. I only planned to watch ep 1 before bed and then stayed up to watch all four. There was much more footage, and many more details, than I'd expected. Sad and maddening, but really, really well done - I was captivated. 

[Primetimer]

5 minutes ago, lyric said:

This was excellent. I only planned to watch ep 1 before bed and then stayed up to watch all four. There was much more footage, and many more details, than I'd expected. Sad and maddening, but really, really well done - I was captivated. 

Primetimer critic Aaron Barnhart agrees with you: https://www.primetimer.com/barnhart/challenger

[starri]

Having available time has only allowed me to watch the first two, but it's great.

Christa McAuliffe was clearly an amazing woman, if Barbara Morgan can still get choked up talking about her after 35 years.

[merylinkid]

Was like a gut punch.   I still remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I got the news.   

That one guy at Morton Thiokel even all these years still hurting.   I felt so bad for him.    Those fellow astronauts in launch control knowing what must have happened but still needing to stay focused to do their jobs.   

Then the families.   Oh MY GOD.   The families.   Going back to crew quarters and being told no one could have survived.   How do you even process that?

The footage of the memorial service, with the kids, I remember seeing that live.   

Hubris.   Since Apollo 1, there hadn't been a deadly catrostophe.   With Apollo 13 we got them home.   Who needs to double check engineering right?    The end card about Columbia sums it all up.   

[formergr]

On 9/16/2020 at 6:05 PM, pigs-in-space said:

Is anyone else watching? I've been fascinated by both the Challenger and Columbia disasters for years so I'm looking forward to this.

Preview:

 

 

Username definitely checks out, pigs-in-space!

I watched it too, and really enjoyed it. Was not expecting to see Ralphie from The Christmas Story—had no idea he was there.

Edited September 19, 2020 by formergr

[pigs-in-space]

3 hours ago, formergr said:

Username definitely checks out, pigs-in-space!

I watched it too, and really enjoyed it. Was not expecting to see Ralphie from The Christmas Story—had no idea he was there.

Ha! I didn't even think about that. 😄

I too was surprised to see the actor from The Christmas Story, although it was pretty cool that he was interviewed to get the perspective from someone who was a child at the time.

I thought the interviews were really good, although I wish we'd gotten even more from the family of many of the astronauts. The story about Ronald McNair getting in trouble for wanting to check out a library book was heartbreaking.

I also appreciated the background on the "new class" of astronauts and the cultural shift. I don't think I realized how many threads you could weave together from this - there's obviously the NASA culture and bureaucracy issues, the new diversity of astronauts and who got to experience space, the drive to increase public interest in the shuttle program, the circumstances that caused them to miss other (better) launch times (and poor Gregory Jarvis's family, knowing that if he hadn't been bumped from a prior launch he'd still be alive), the politics of the commission after the fact...so much to dive into. It's unsurprising they were able to go deeper into some of the astronauts than others, although I suppose it could also be a matter of who was available and willing to be interviewed.

This is such a random assortment of thoughts at this point, but I was glad Barbara Morgan got to go into space at a later date.

Last thought (for now) - Lawrence Mulloy really did himself no favors with that interview. He'd have been more sympathetic just not saying anything.

ETA: Okay, not really the last thought. Just wanted to say that I would love a documentary like this for the Columbia disaster as well.

Edited September 19, 2020 by pigs-in-space

[merylinkid]

7 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

I too was surprised to see the actor from The Christmas Story, although it was pretty cool that he was interviewed to get the perspective from someone who was a child at the time.

He was the Youth Ambassador for NASA.   They told him after Teacher in Space they were thinking Kid in Space.   Who else would go but the Youth Ambassador.   He was supposed to do a national tour with Christa McAuliffe after the flight.   So he was at Kennedy that day.   

What amazed me about that day is how little he has changed.   He is still so recognizably the Christmas Story Kid.   I recognized him (although I knew he would be in it from reading Jen Chaney's review on Vulture).   I don't even like the movie (there I said it), but I went wow, Ralphie looks like they aged the kid for this.  

[Linny]

I went into this series only knowing basic facts related to the Challenger disaster. I wasn't born until the end of 1986, so my knowledge of the event wasn't very thorough, and mostly involved the hype surrounding Christa as a teacher in space. This series helped provide a broader framework of the Space Shuttle program in general and what the Challenger and its crew meant to the American public. NASA's bill of sale touting the Space Shuttle program as something explorative and accessible, opening space up to ordinary civilians and inviting them to watch every step of the journey, made the Challenger launch into a cultural milestone. There was a frenzied anticipation obvious in every bit of footage leading up to the big day. Even if the explosion hadn't happened, this would still have been a moment in history we'd be discussing today, only in terms of triumph instead of tragedy.

It's appalling to know that the engineers knew full-well of the issues with the o-ring, knew the problem the cold temperature posed, and that still wasn't enough to sway NASA to delay the launch. The distant stance NASA took during the investigation of what went wrong is beyond belief. Larry Mulloy, in particular, is a disgrace for not owning up to his knowledge of potential catastrophe at the time, and for his unwillingness to admit to this day that he prioritized the Space Shuttle schedule and promise of glory over the safety of the crew.

There's no way to watch coverage of that morning without feeling a pit in my stomach. The cheery optimism and confidence, vanishing in 73 seconds. Seven bright, passionate souls with so much unfulfilled potential, gone in an instant. It's simply devastating, and it didn't have to be.

[Ellaria]

13 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

Last thought (for now) - Lawrence Mulloy really did himself no favors with that interview. He'd have been more sympathetic just not saying anything.

3 hours ago, Linny said:

Mulloy, in particular, is a disgrace for not owning up to his knowledge of potential catastrophe at the time, and for his unwillingness to admit to this day that he prioritized the Space Shuttle schedule and promise of glory over the safety of the crew.

There's no way to watch coverage of that morning without feeling a pit in my stomach. The cheery optimism and confidence, vanishing in 73 seconds. Seven bright, passionate souls with so much unfulfilled potential, gone in an instant. It's simply devastating, and it didn't have to be.

It’s not only Malloy. There was the other NASA big shot - think his name was Lucas - that showed no remorse. What disgraceful human beings! They are complicit in the deaths of seven people, deaths that were completely avoidable. Scobee’s widow is a better person than I am - I doubt that I would be able to forgive them. It is appalling that years after this disaster - and with the cameras rolling - neither of them expressed an ounce of compassion.

I was screaming at the screen during their interviews. 

The documentary was well-done. I felt the heartbreak of that moment once again. I was glad to learn more about the astronauts and also see how some of their families have coped in the intervening years. It was shocking and sad but is a cautionary tale.

[sassi214]

This was one of those stories I watched and couldn't help but hope that my brain was wrong and they make it after all.

The outright audacity of Lucas to not even admit that he was wrong. He was WRONG to let the launch go. Because the shuttle blew up and they all died. He DIDN'T make a good decision based on the information he had. It was the absolute wrong decision. Just say you're sorry and be done with it. Take responsibility like a decent human.

 

[MissAlmond]

I saw this live on TV.  To this day the brief exchange:  "Challenger, go with throttle up."  "Roger, go with throttle up" remain seared in my brain. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by MissAlmond

[Enero]

Great documentary. Very interesting. 

I didn’t know much about the Challenger because I was a kid when it happened except Christa McAuliffe,  Christa McAuliffe,  Christa McAuliffe. 

I know she was going to be the first teacher in space. Hence all the fanfare around her,  but like always when something like this happens the other victims seemed to be neglected for the  person who the media deemed as the face of the tragedy. It was great to hear not only more about the diversification of the space program , training methods, etc., but about the other astronauts and from their families.

I had no idea the astronauts  were found in tact. Heartbreaking. I hope they died instantly from the loss of cabin pressure because to have died otherwise....I can’t even imagine how horrifying that would’ve been. 

Lucas and Malloy...I just can’t with these men. How do they even sleep at night is baffling to me. No remorse. No care. Just casualties of progress is their thought. Disgusting. 

I’d forgotten about the Columbia disaster in 2003 until it was mentioned in the ending credits of the series.   

Amazing that despite being aware of the catastrophic risk of launching, the fear of the loss of money prevailed, even when there was a risk of loss of life. This behavior will never change in humans and continues to this day, which is sad. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Enero

[CrazyInAlabama]

When this happened, I was at work.   This was the first one that wasn't widely televised, but one of the bosses where I work was in a conference room watching on some channel, when it happened.    I was helping a customer, when the boss came in and told me what had happened.   My group didn't work for the man who told us, but his own group was very splintered, and we were more friends than subordinates, so when this happened, he wanted to go somewhere that felt safe to him.     

What I hated about the coverage is that the news shows kept showing Christa McAuliffe's parents watching the launch, and then hearing about the loudspeaker, and obviously not understanding what was going on.   I thought showing that over and over was so cruel.     I also hated the reports later speculating that the crew didn't die until the impact with the water.  Even if that was true, it was pointless cruelty to advertise that.  My personal hope is that the explosion, and loss of cabin pressure means the crew was unconscious, and knew nothing.  

[Bastet]

I was obsessed with the space program as a kid, but didn't see the Challenger disaster in real time because we were on a field trip that day.  They told us on the bus, and I remember my friend punching the back of the seat in front of us.

I thought this was well done, informative and emotional.  I think the only thing I didn't already know was Sally Ride's role in getting the o-ring information out there.  Go ahead, Sally.

It did a good job of setting the national context, how the space program had become mundane to a country that had previously held it as a national obsession and the deliberate attempts to rekindle interest (because, when the public loses interest, Congress loses interest in funding it) and the ensuing pressure to hold to a promised schedule that couldn't actually be delivered.

It's so typical that those who knew the risk but didn't have the power to stop the launch are still haunted, and those who knew, did have the power, and chose to roll the dice have no remorse. 

They should follow up with a Columbia documentary, since NASA also knew about the foam problem yet didn't say ya know, we made this mistake with Challenger, we're not going to jeopardize lives again, but instead did the same thing - because, as the commission report detailed, the toxic culture of hubris and miscommunication identified in the Challenger commission report still existed - and ultimately got the whole space shuttle fleet shitcanned. 

And it would be nice to bring attention to those who gave their lives in the mission, since it - unlike previous ones focused on building the ISS - was dedicated to research; they performed about 80 scientific experiments during their time in orbit (working 24 hours a day in two shifts), doing some interesting stuff.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Bastet

[pigs-in-space]

I almost forgot that one of my favorite podcasts, You're Wrong About, had an episode dedicated to this topic in January 2019. It's not one of their deep dives, but I'm going to give it another listen.

16 hours ago, Bastet said:

I thought this was well done, informative and emotional.  I think the only thing I didn't already know was Sally Ride's role in getting the o-ring information out there.  Go ahead, Sally.

That was a great touch! 

20 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I also hated the reports later speculating that the crew didn't die until the impact with the water.  Even if that was true, it was pointless cruelty to advertise that.  My personal hope is that the explosion, and loss of cabin pressure means the crew was unconscious, and knew nothing.  

Personally I'd rather know the truth, even if it is horrifying and terrible. It just doesn't sit right with me to not acknowledge that their deaths might not have been as painless and instantaneous as we'd like to believe them to be.

[merylinkid]

On 9/20/2020 at 8:16 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

 I also hated the reports later speculating that the crew didn't die until the impact with the water.  Even if that was true, it was pointless cruelty to advertise that.  My personal hope is that the explosion, and loss of cabin pressure means the crew was unconscious, and knew nothing.  

Whether they died instantly or survived the explosion became a point of contention in the later lawsuits.    If they died instantly, no pain and suffering.   If they survived and died on impact with water, then pain and suffering.   It made a difference in the damages.    Yes, that sounds cold and calculating, but from a purely legal standpoint, it matters.

[Ellaria]

On 9/20/2020 at 11:53 PM, Bastet said:

I thought this was well done, informative and emotional.  I think the only thing I didn't already know was Sally Ride's role in getting the o-ring information out there.  Go ahead, Sally.

Loved this bit of information, too. Sally Ride - a true American hero.

14 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

Personally I'd rather know the truth, even if it is horrifying and terrible. It just doesn't sit right with me to not acknowledge that their deaths might not have been as painless and instantaneous as we'd like to believe them to be.

I agree. The truth about their last minutes of life is horrific but the last thing needed is more misinformation and a further lack of transparency. Of course, I say this as an observer and not a family member and that may be a different perspective.

And knowing how the crew may have suffered in those final minutes, those two souless ghouls from NASA do not express remorse or guilt.

 

[Gwendolyn]

7 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

And knowing how the crew may have suffered in those final minutes, those two souless ghouls from NASA do not express remorse or guilt.

When you compare the Morton Thiokel engineers and how horrible they felt about not standing by their beliefs and forcing the launch to be scratched, with the NASA people its even more powerful. I'm surprised the NASA guys were willing to participate, but I guess since they both feel they did absolutely nothing wrong, especially Malloy's boss or colleague, that was all so what people died. A real cold fish that one.

We weren't watching it, but the principal came on the loud speaker and asked for a moment of silence in memory of the crew, but it was all we could talk about at recess. For Gen X remembering that day is like a Baby Boomer saying where they were when Kennedy was shot.

The sad take away, is nobody learned from the mistakes and hence Columbia.

[Ellaria]

3 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

When you compare the Morton Thiokel engineers and how horrible they felt about not standing by their beliefs and forcing the launch to be scratched, with the NASA people its even more powerful. I'm surprised the NASA guys were willing to participate, but I guess since they both feel they did absolutely nothing wrong, especially Malloy's boss or colleague, that was all so what people died. A real cold fish that one.

We weren't watching it, but the principal came on the loud speaker and asked for a moment of silence in memory of the crew, but it was all we could talk about at recess. For Gen X remembering that day is like a Baby Boomer saying where they were when Kennedy was shot.

The sad take away, is nobody learned from the mistakes and hence Columbia.

Agree 100%. I thought that the Morton Thiokol engineers responded appropriately. They admitted their mistakes and showed sorrow about not fighting harder for their position. It is a stark contrast to Lucas and Molloy. I can't believe that no one in their immediate circle of family and friends thought to tell them, "Maybe you shouldn't go ahead with this interview if this is what you intend to say."

They did not learn from their mistakes because they didn't care to. They didn't care about the lives lost. And, yes, that's why we had Columbia.

[Bastet]

Regarding the seven people who lost their lives as collateral damage on the road to progress and comparing them to settlers who died along the journey westward was particularly galling.  Fuck that guy.  Some loss was inevitable in the frontier scenario - one could do everything right and still run afoul of fatal illness or encounter, variables that could not be controlled.  Not so with Challenger - they died because NASA didn't do everything right. 

And it wasn't even a matter of anyone saying the entire shuttle program should be suspended until they could figure out what was causing the o-ring problem and redesign the SRBs to correct it; it was simply a matter of listening to the people who build the damn things say the data is inconclusive thus far, but we're investigating a theory that cold weather increases the chances of failure, and could possibly even result in catastrophic failure, so we think it's better to delay launch until the cold snap is over. 

They were being advised to wait mere days, not years.  The data shouldn't need to be conclusive for that; they were still investigating, but the only variable they'd identified so far to differentiate that one flight where the first o-ring was in so much worse shape and there was even damage to the second from previous flights with far lesser o-ring damage was the colder temperature at liftoff and this was going to be even colder. 

To, with the benefit of hindsight, still not acknowledge that launching under those circumstances was an unreasonable risk to take requires a particularly skewed mindset, and there are too damn many people with that mindset in positions of power.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Bastet

[Enero]

13 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Agree 100%. I thought that the Morton Thiokol engineers responded appropriately. They admitted their mistakes and showed sorrow about not fighting harder for their position. It is a stark contrast to Lucas and Molloy. I can't believe that no one in their immediate circle of family and friends thought to tell them, "Maybe you shouldn't go ahead with this interview if this is what you intend to say."

They did not learn from their mistakes because they didn't care to. They didn't care about the lives lost. And, yes, that's why we had Columbia.

They didn’t learn anything because they didn’t think any mistakes were made. What happened was par for the course in the pursuit of progress in their eyes. 

I agree with whom ever upthread. I’d like to see a new season of this series which explores the Columbia disaster. 

[TaraS1]

The only thing I would've changed about this is having it be two or three episodes longer, just because I found it so fascinating and well done.  I could have easily watched another couple of hours about the investigation alone.

And no matter how often I watch something about Challenger, the line they inevitably play from Reagan's speech about them touching the face of God brings me to tears every single time.

Edited September 24, 2020 by TaraS1

[divsc]

I thought the documentary was well done. I was in 2nd grade and we were watching it live. I don't remember watching any footage of the families watching though and that was just so sad. I had no idea about the door hatch screws and how only battery operated devices could fix them... and a crew showed up with... devices with uncharged/dead batteries. Resulting in even more of a delay as the weather conditions deteriorated and the high winds got worse. It's maddening to know the flight was not called off and how egos prevailed. Had no idea that Ralphie was there at the time either.

Bittersweet moment when Christa was riding her bike and said, "Stay six feet away from me, I'm in quarantine!" 

[CrazyInAlabama]

After the Challenger loss, I moved to another installation, and the neighboring group was a big NASA site.     No one who knew anyone who worked there was surprised at the CYA, and the screwups that occurred on Challenger.   

[jah1986]

Just finished watching the series. It was so well done and heartbreaking. I had to pause after episode 3, all these years later it's still devastating to see.  I was glad to see so many involved take responsibility for their part in this tragedy. Except that one guy, Mr. I'd do it all again because that's just the cost of doing business. That guy was horrible. I was glad to see that NASA wasn't just given a break like Reagan initially wanted. I was holding my breath again watching the Discovery launch.

I don't now why I don't have a memory about the Columbia disaster. I would be interested in learning more about that.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Columbia happened when there was a lot about Challenger being remembered.   When I first heard the Columbia news I really thought it was more of the Challenger commemorations.     I was driving to work, and started hearing the talk about  shuttle loss, but I couldn't deal with it right then, so just assumed it was for the Challenger, not the Columbia. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Bastet]

When the Columbia disaster happened, I was up on the roof of the bonus room attached to my garage, replacing the rolled asphalt roofing.  It was a beautiful day, and I was in a really good rhythm, with the radio playing through my old boom box (and I mean old; that thing - which still works - plays AM/FM, cassette -- and 8-track), when the news was announced.  My first thought was how horrible, but my second was "They did it again".  I just knew NASA had ignored another problem.

[ForumLou]

Wow. So dam sad.  My dad had to convince me to watch it, but Im glad he did now.  Took me right back to that fateful day.  I think that was the first tragedy that really hit me hard. As us all.  A national tragedy.  I cried so hard. Dad was telling me when they were in Fla and had seen Columbia launch, and then saw what happened over TX upon landing.

Question Dad was wanting a dvd of this and I've looked around but it looks like it was 4 eps on tv put together for the movie.  Does anyone know where a dvd might be had?  Thanks!

 

[Annber03]

Just finished watching this documentary. I was just a little over a year old when this happened, so whatever I know about it has been through discussions of it in history shows and retrospectives about that time period and whatnot. And I remember seeing an episode of a show called, "When Weather Changed History" on the Weather Channel years ago that focused on this tragedy, and they discussed the cold weather and the O-rings and such there. That's where I first learned about just what all had happened regarding that launch. I thought this series did a really good job of fleshing it all out and going into even further detail.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:13 AM, Linny said:

There's no way to watch coverage of that morning without feeling a pit in my stomach. The cheery optimism and confidence, vanishing in 73 seconds. Seven bright, passionate souls with so much unfulfilled potential, gone in an instant. It's simply devastating, and it didn't have to be.

As they were describing and showing the events of that morning leading up to that moment, I could literally feel my heart pounding in my chest. You know what's coming, I've seen the infamous footage of the shuttle exploding, and yet I still gasped and flinched at that moment here anyway. Seeing it in its full context, with all the buildup and the attention and focus, knowing the crew's families were watching below, that there were children watching this, just really drove home the horror of it all. My heart absolutely breaks for the poor families of the crew. I can't even begin to imagine what it'd be like to watch that happen to your loved ones. And the mourning and grief was all the more prolonged, because they didn't find the bodies until some time later, so when they were pulled up out of the water it must've felt like they were losing them all over again. 

The reactions from everyone in that moment in general really got to me. The dawning horror, the stunned silence, people bursting into tears and collapsing-it's absolutely heartwrenching. The audience at the site and watching on TV knew something was wrong, they just weren't sure what, exactly. The bit where Dick's wife talked about how, when they were on the bus leaving the site, she saw people punching their cars or weeping at their steering wheels, really struck me, too. It all highlighted how invested everyone was, and just how much of a hideous punch to the gut this tragedy was. 

On 9/18/2020 at 12:45 PM, merylinkid said:

That one guy at Morton Thiokel even all these years still hurting.   I felt so bad for him.    Those fellow astronauts in launch control knowing what must have happened but still needing to stay focused to do their jobs.   

I wanted to hug him every time he was on the verge of breaking down into tears. His regret at not putting down a statement that he didn't agree with that signed memo that he faxed over the night before was very poignant. And then the other guy, Ebeling, knowing what was going to happen, desperately trying to warn people about it and stop it, and watching helplessly as his worst fears came to pass. It's so maddening how so many people didn't listen to them, or any of the others who tried to warn NASA about this. 

On 9/17/2020 at 8:07 PM, starri said:

Christa McAuliffe was clearly an amazing woman, if Barbara Morgan can still get choked up talking about her after 35 years.

I loved the story about her bringing over a homemade pie :). And her enthusiasm for teaching, and her excitement at being able to educate kids in a whole new way-it was so infectious. No wonder she got picked to be on the team. Her students were incredibly lucky to have a teacher as awesome and dedicated as her. 

On 9/19/2020 at 12:28 AM, pigs-in-space said:

The story about Ronald McNair getting in trouble for wanting to check out a library book was heartbreaking.

Yes 😞. Thank goodness that didn't scare him away, though. I really loved all the stories about the crew, it was nice to learn a little more about them and their families. The bits about Christa bringing back gifts for her sisters even while on a date, and then later, Dick's wife finding his suitcase after he died and seeing a Valentine's Day card he'd planned to give her-those moments had me in tears. These people all sounded like absolutely wonderful, inspiring individuals. Imagine what else they could've accomplished-the world was truly robbed. 

On 9/20/2020 at 6:46 PM, Enero said:

Amazing that despite being aware of the catastrophic risk of launching, the fear of the loss of money prevailed, even when there was a risk of loss of life. This behavior will never change in humans and continues to this day, which is sad. 

When they talked about how, after one of the earlier launches, there were  T-shirts and other memorabilia around it for people to buy and all that, that really rubbed me the wrong way. Like, I get this was a big deal and exciting and all that, but seriously, do we have to commercialize everything? Moments like that were definitely a sign of the whole "profit over everything" mentality that was running rampant (and given how people tend to define the '80s as the decade of greed and excess, it makes NASA's stance even less surprising in that context). 

On 9/22/2020 at 7:13 PM, Bastet said:

Regarding the seven people who lost their lives as collateral damage on the road to progress and comparing them to settlers who died along the journey westward was particularly galling.  Fuck that guy.  Some loss was inevitable in the frontier scenario - one could do everything right and still run afoul of fatal illness or encounter, variables that could not be controlled.  Not so with Challenger - they died because NASA didn't do everything right. 

God, yes. I was sitting here like, "Uhhhh, yeah, that's not even remotely the same thing, you idiot." For the very reasons you note. Plus, this flight had a non-astronaut on board. Had it been successful, they'd apparently talked about the idea of sending kids up in one of those shuttles someday. Kids. What would they have done if they'd kept ignoring these issues, eventually sent a kid up in one of these shuttles, and that shuttle had exploded? How would they have explained away that one? I think it's safe to say they never considered that possibility, and that makes their ineptness all the more chilling. I echo all the sentiments here about how shitty Malloy and Lucas' attitudes were. No guilt at all? "I'd do it the same way again"? What the hell, guys? I can't believe they weren't out and out fired over this. They just got moved to other jobs. Talk about being protected in your cushy lifestyle. 

On that note, you know what I kept thinking about during all of this? The story of the Titanic. The situations are eerily similar: we have a group of people who were too arrogant to believe their ship could possibly sink/their shuttles could explode, who didn't plan well enough for emergencies (the limited number of lifeboats/the issues with the O-rings), ignoring any potential weaknesses in their design that could've put people's lives at risk, and cold weather ultimately playing a role in destroying a mode of transportation that was never supposed to fall apart. At least with the Titanic there were still some survivors in the end. 

I also wondered if some of the issues with the weather had to do with the fact that Florida is not very used to dealing with that kind of cold weather. I know they'd said they'd had a couple cold snaps prior to that one, but the fact it's not common for the weather to get that cold there...if you don't have a lot of experience with that, it's going to be harder to know exactly how to deal with it when it does happen., the way us northerners would. It is very weird, though, that NASA was willing to scrub a launch on a day when there was a chance of rain, but icicles hanging from the shuttle? Yeah, that's no biggie. Okay. 

On 9/20/2020 at 10:53 PM, Bastet said:

I thought this was well done, informative and emotional.  I think the only thing I didn't already know was Sally Ride's role in getting the o-ring information out there.  Go ahead, Sally.

That was awesome. Good for her. I appreciated the desire to want to protect her, too, so she wouldn't get in trouble for passing that information along. Though I imagine she would've taken whatever punishment she received had they found out. 

I also really loved the whole thing with Kutyna and Feynman working together to publicly call out the NASA employees who were lying about what they claimed to know and not know. The bit with them demonstrating the issue with the rings was brilliant. Thank god there were some people who were willing to call others out on their bullshit-I shudder to think of what could've happened had NASA managed to continue keeping all of this under wraps. 

On 9/24/2020 at 9:02 AM, TaraS1 said:

And no matter how often I watch something about Challenger, the line they inevitably play from Reagan's speech about them touching the face of God brings me to tears every single time.

That speech really was moving. It did bother me later on, though, when they were talking about how he didn't want NASA to look bad or be embarrassed or anything during the investigation, and to make sure their heroic image stayed intact. Yeah, safe to say that ship has well and truly sailed by that point, bud. 

Yeah. Fascinating, heartbreaking documentary, this. I agree with those who want to see one on the Columbia disaster, too. I definitely remember hearing about that one, and all the comparisons to the Challenger disaster, but again, only know the general story there. It would be good to learn more about that tragedy, too. 

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Regarding the safety of the shuttle: When the committee investigated the Challenger tragedy, one of the members was physicist Richard Feynman. One of the things Feynman took issue with was NASA's public statements that the risk of a catastrophic shuttle accident was 1 in 100,000. That means NASA could have launched two shuttles every day for over a century with no disasters, which obviously didn't happen. The actual scientists and engineers who worked on designing and assembling the shuttle, on the other hand, would tell you the risk of a catastrophic accident was 1 in 100. They wished they could make it safer but just couldn't, given all the variables, dangerous technology, etc. Feynman went on to say that a 1 in 100 failure rate is respectable enough for an experimental craft, but it is NOT 1 in 100,000 or anything close to it, and NASA should not have said it was safe enough for non-scientists such as Senators and schoolteachers.

Feynman finally asked one of the NASA bigwigs how they came up with the 1 in 100,000 figure. The NASA guy stated it was computed by averaging the failure rates of every part on the shuttle, based on their importance. Feynman then looked at the chart NASA used, and mentioned one screw on a forward panel was listed with a failure rate of 1 in 300 million. When Feynman asked the NASA guy exactly how he had come up with that figure, the NASA guy couldn't give a coherent answer. The REAL answer, of course, is he and his cohorts were just assigning arbitrary risk numbers to arrive at a safety figure they knew was BS but would be acceptable to the government and public.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[Bastet]

I watched this again last night, and was just as moved by it, but I  wonder why they didn't explain that the crew members did not die instantly, and may even have been alive until they hit the water (by the time the bodies were recovered, cause of death could not be definitively determined); at least some were conscious for at least part of the time.  That makes the NASA assholes' attitudes to this day all the more horrifying, because these people didn't just die, they suffered first.  The shuttle tore apart (due to aerodynamic forces, not an explosion), but the forces of that breakup were deemed unlikely to cause serious injury or death, and the crew cabin hit the water intact - nearly three minutes later.

At first, NASA claimed they likely never knew anything happened, but when Smith's widow sued, NASA had to acknowledge they did, since Smith said "Uh-oh" at that 73-second mark, a couple of emergency switches were thrown, and at least three emergency oxygen packs were activated (which has to be done manually), so those, at least, knew they were in trouble.

There were four packs found among the wreckage, and three had been activated.  One of the activated packs was definitely Smith's, which is another touching moment of this tragedy; he and Scobee could not have reached theirs without getting out of their seats, which they obviously couldn't do, so Resnick, who sat behind Smith, must have switched it on for him.  Scobee's was the unactivated pack found, and we don't know who the other two activated packs belonged to.

I wonder if it's that the families didn't want to get into that part again.

I had hoped by now Netflix would have announced a follow-up, about the Columbia disaster, since the same damn thing happened - NASA knew about a problem (this time with foam breaking off at launch, which had the potential to damage the tiles that protect the shuttle from the extreme heat of reentering the atmosphere), ignored it, and then tried to cover their asses.  That crew didn't die instantly, either (we know one was alive and conscious for at least 30 seconds, because buttons on the control panel [those that would have been used in response to what was happening, not random ones hit by things flying around] were used during that time).

[anna0852]

On 9/19/2020 at 1:28 AM, pigs-in-space said:

. 😄

ETA: Okay, not really the last thought. Just wanted to say that I would love a documentary like this for the Columbia disaster as well.

Well, it took a couple of years but there is one now. CNN just did a series on Columbia. You should be able to find it on Hulu.

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Well, it took a couple of years but there is one now. CNN just did a series on Columbia. You should be able to find it on Hulu.

I just checked - because the Hulu app is better than the CNN app - and it's not yet available on "regular" Hulu, just the version with LiveTV.  It probably will be at some point; CNN's Martha Stewart documentary eventually became available on numerous streaming platforms.

For those who have access to CNN via their cable/satellite provider but didn't record it and don't want to hope for a re-run, all four parts are available on the CNN app (and maybe website, I haven't checked) with your cable/satellite log-in.