S01.E05: Strange Case

[izabella]

38 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

And, poignantly enough, Tic really needed to feel that Montrose did what he did out of love for Tic, to protect him. In some twisted way, it was a protective act, misguided as it was. I wonder if Montrose will come to terms emotionally with what he did to Yahima, and in the past to Tic, now that he's allowed a more tender side of himself to peek out just a bit with Sammy. He, too, has been compartmentalizing his emotions in order function in a dysfunctional environment. 

I don't know if Montrose will come to terms with his murder of Yahima, but I sure won't.  Montrose is dead to me.

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, rollacoaster said:

It's interesting that Ruby assumed she needed all that education to work at Fields, when we don't even know what the qualifications to work there were. We really don't even know if there were any particular educational requirements to work the counter there, even for the white women. We might could presume that being reasonably attractive, well-spoken and well put together might be enough to work the counter, and Tamara presented those things. Ruby's resume, at least in the manager's eyes, qualified her for a management position (as a white woman).  It may have actually disqualified her as a Black women, as she might have been perceived as a threat, as someone who was striving above her station.

I think Ruby internalized the notion that Black people have to be twice as good to get half as far, so she has to come to the table with as many qualifications as possible. (The notion that Black people have to be twice as good as white people to get half as far was taught to me and literally every other Black person I know regardless of age.) She-as-Hillary told Tamara "They [white people] can't take your education away from you," which my parents were taught (and they listened; my mother has a Ph.D., my father has a master's). I can for sure see management, if Tamara ever tried to get ahead, telling her "This is a good job for you, you didn't even go to high school. Take some classes and we'll see," always moving the line.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Not to drag on Tamara, but I'm guessing that the average Marshall Field's saleswoman would have had more than a seventh grade education.

And that's how affirmative action naysayers usually make their argument, that Black people are usually hired even though they're not otherwise qualified; i.e., "reverse discrimination." Ruby seemed to have assumed that argument even before she learned Tamara was a middle school dropout. In her view, Tamara had filled some meaningless racial quota, at the expense of people like Ruby who at least looked extremely good on paper.

Quote

I think HillaRuby could have danced with whoever she wanted -- either with the manager or any of the regulars at the bar. It was more that she wasn't feeling it. 

That wasn't my read of the scene. Perhaps I'll watch it again.

Quote

I think Christina is beyond such petty labels as gay and bi. I think that manipulating Ruby could have been done without sleeping with her, so it was probably something that she wanted to do.

Such labels didn't even exist at the time but the concepts did so I question the designation of them as "petty." I think it remains to be seen what Christina's sexual orientation is, and what Ruby's full reaction will be when she realizes she's been having sex with a woman. Maybe Ruby is in for an awakening and acceptance like Montrose had. Or not.

Meanwhile, there are multiple levels to a White man pursuing a Black woman sexually given that society has generally deemed Black women the least desireable but arguably the most receptive to casual sex. (Largely a result of slave women being raped by slaveowners.) What Christina did to Ruby under the guise of William was a particularly pernicious kind of manipulation IMO since she was probably acting on those longstanding stereotypes. It also remains to be seen though whether Ruby considers herself Christina's victim.

[Cyranetta]

One thing that stayed with me afterwards is how much the episode balanced moments of "busting out" and "thrusting into)...

[DearEvette]

42 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I think Ruby internalized the notion that Black people have to be twice as good to get half as far, so she has to come to the table with as many qualifications as possible. (The notion that Black people have to be twice as good as white people to get half as far was taught to me and literally every other Black person I know regardless of age.) She-as-Hillary told Tamara "They [white people] can't take your education away from you," which my parents were taught (and they listened; my mother has a Ph.D., my father has a master's). I can for sure see management, if Tamara ever tried to get ahead, telling her "This is a good job for you, you didn't even go to high school. Take some classes and we'll see," always moving the line.

Cosign!

This was 100% Ruby's mindset.  She already knew the system was rigged. She was making she had her 'twice as good' on lock.  So when she learned that Tamara's on-paper bona-fides were not as good as her own, it played with Ruby's notions of how the world is supposed to work.  Not only did someone else already take the 'black hire' spot, but it was a person who was not as educated as Ruby.  Never mind that we are never told what the actual qualifications to get hired at Marshall Fields are.  For all we know Tamara actually does meet them.

Given how handsy he was with Ruby and how he later tried to mess with Tamara for all we know how attractive he felt a person was might have played into their hire.

ETA: on another note about the transformation... Ruby did her painful transformation at least twice outside of William's house.  Once in the elevator and once in the alley.   She would have left blood trails and gobbets of flesh sitting around. I wonder did nobody notice any blood spatter in the elevator?

Edited September 14, 2020 by DearEvette

[rollacoaster]

11 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

This was 100% Ruby's mindset.  She already knew the system was rigged. She was making she had her 'twice as good' on lock.  So when she learned that Tamara's on-paper bona-fides were not as good as her own, it played with Ruby's notions of how the world is supposed to work.  Not only did someone else already take the 'black hire' spot, but it was a person who was not as educated as Ruby.  Never mind that we are never told what the actual qualifications to get hired at Marshall Fields are.  For all we know Tamara actually does meet them.

Yep. Lots of expectations got upended in this episode. 

[lala2]

18 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Did the sheriff have black skin grafted onto his body?

I believe he did! My sister and I noticed it. That was a crazy scene! I really enjoy this show! 

3 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

That’s what I thought. So Tamara wasn’t chosen over Ruby if Ruby didn’t apply in the first place. I thought her anger towards her because of that was really misplaced. Tamara didn’t do anything wrong, Ruby was just too late.

I believe Ruby did apply and was turned down. I totally understood her anger upon learning that Tamara was less qualified than her and still got the job. As you guys have mentioned, all black people (of a certain age) have learned that we have to be twice as good as our white counterparts to get anywhere. That's what my parents were taught and passed on to me and my sister.

It is entirely possible the manager passed on Ruby b/c he was not physically attracted to her or thought she was too "big" to be one of their employees. Who knows?! That last scene w/him was great! And great use of that Cardi B song! I agree w/those who think he will be too embarrassed to say anything about what happened. 

[Scarlett45]

9 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Did Chicago have a big drag scene back in the day? At least a Black one?

They did. My mother’s maternal uncle used to attend “The Sissy’s Ball” during this time period, held on the south side for black and brown LGBTQ people (although of course they didn’t use that term). 
 

I am a day late, but I’ve loved all of your comments. I also thought WHY did Ruby’s white self show up as a nondescript, mid height, mid weight White woman. Was that a choice? Why didn’t Ruby’s white version end up being a tall buxom Rubenisque (spelling) gorgeous white woman? I am so someone that thinks William just a persona Christina uses when she needs to navigate male spaces, but William looks like a male Christina. Or am I thinking too much and they just liked the actress. 
 

y’all know be by now SO another moment for the physique of Jonathan Majors and the Leti/ Atticus sex scene.  

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Meanwhile, there are multiple levels to a White man pursuing a Black woman sexually given that society has generally deemed Black women the least desireable but arguably the most receptive to casual sex. (Largely a result of slave women being raped by slaveowners.) What Christina did to Ruby under the guise of William was a particularly pernicious kind of manipulation IMO since she was probably acting on those longstanding stereotypes. It also remains to be seen though whether Ruby considers herself Christina's victim.

Yes. And additionally the fact that black women have had the least sexual agency due to power in society. As the black community saw it during this time (and before) any time a black woman is with a white man she should be pitied, because it may not have been a choice. And “choice” is a relative term- if a white man really wanted you, you didn’t have the social power to say “no”. Even if he was decent to you and supported you in a nice manner, you also knew that his white Family came first.  
 

Given that Willian was in a male body I don’t think Ruby has any questions about her sexuality. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, izabella said:

I don't know if Montrose will come to terms with his murder of Yahima, but I sure won't.  Montrose is dead to me.

In defense of Montrose, it's not unreasonable to think that when the lodges learn that a) Our Heroes have additional pages from the Book of Names and b) they have a living/unliving person who knows the language of Adam and worked directly with Titus, that all hell would rain down on them and the only way to avoid that is to kill Yahima and burn the pages. An argument could also be made that cutting Yahima's throat is a mercy killing compared to what the lodges would do once they learned of Yahima's existence. (And the lodges surely would find out sooner or later). There is also potentially the self-hating part of Montrose that comes to play and the notion that violence has been made his first reaction thanks to intergenerational trauma.

But yeah, that still doesn't change that he's a murdering bastard.

5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

And that's how affirmative action naysayers usually make their argument, that Black people are usually hired even though they're not otherwise qualified; i.e., "reverse discrimination." Ruby seemed to have assumed that argument even before she learned Tamara was a middle school dropout. In her view, Tamara had filled some meaningless racial quota, at the expense of people like Ruby who at least looked extremely good on paper.

That wasn't my read of the scene. Perhaps I'll watch it again.

Such labels didn't even exist at the time but the concepts did so I question the designation of them as "petty." I think it remains to be seen what Christina's sexual orientation is, and what Ruby's full reaction will be when she realizes she's been having sex with a woman. Maybe Ruby is in for an awakening and acceptance like Montrose had. Or not.

Meanwhile, there are multiple levels to a White man pursuing a Black woman sexually given that society has generally deemed Black women the least desireable but arguably the most receptive to casual sex. (Largely a result of slave women being raped by slaveowners.) What Christina did to Ruby under the guise of William was a particularly pernicious kind of manipulation IMO since she was probably acting on those longstanding stereotypes. It also remains to be seen though whether Ruby considers herself Christina's victim.

I think Ruby assumed that Tamara obeyed the work-twice-as-hard-to-get-half-as-far rule that a bunch of posters here have referenced. Then she found out that Tamara had worked maybe three-quarters as hard and got further than her. There are a lot of ways she could have processed that information-- that Tamara is the exception that proves the rule, that it doesn't matter how Tamara got there so much as helping her to stay there and pave the way for others, and so on. But the way Ruby seemed to come down was rooted in jealousy.

When I said "petty," I was being slightly sarcastic. But I do think that Christina lives by the notion of doing whatever she wants more than anything else. We'll see if Christina tries to seduce Ruby as herself going forward, as William, as somebody else. 

The historical politics of interracial taboo (as I understood them, anyway) from the white gaze were:

White man and black woman: Fine for fooling around for the reasons you said, not for marrying.

Black man and white woman: Barbaric and unnatural, potentially resulting in cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria

But because gay and lesbian relationships are so marginalized already, I don't know if there was a conventional societal wisdom take on white/black women and white/black men.

I always look forward to the show, but I am particularly interested in seeing how it deals with the black-Asian relationship next week.

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Cosign!

This was 100% Ruby's mindset.  She already knew the system was rigged. She was making she had her 'twice as good' on lock.  So when she learned that Tamara's on-paper bona-fides were not as good as her own, it played with Ruby's notions of how the world is supposed to work.  Not only did someone else already take the 'black hire' spot, but it was a person who was not as educated as Ruby.  Never mind that we are never told what the actual qualifications to get hired at Marshall Fields are.  For all we know Tamara actually does meet them.

Given how handsy he was with Ruby and how he later tried to mess with Tamara for all we know how attractive he felt a person was might have played into their hire.

ETA: on another note about the transformation... Ruby did her painful transformation at least twice outside of William's house.  Once in the elevator and once in the alley.   She would have left blood trails and gobbets of flesh sitting around. I wonder did nobody notice any blood spatter in the elevator?

I think it safe to assume that back then school was mandatory for everyone till 9th grade. Again, not that Tamara wasn't holding down jobs or doing things that made her as qualified or more than straight book-learning, but it would surprise me if the other saleswomen didn't graduate high school.

I absolutely think that he was hiring people based on who he could hook up with, and if he hadn't tried to hook up with the white saleswomen yet, he was just pacing himself.

I have to imagine that as gross and painful as the transformation might be, eventually the skin and blood evaporated or something else happened to it. Maybe Chrilliam had a cleaning crew on standby. Or Evil Elevator did it.

Because you're totally right: finding blood trails down the hall at Marshall Field's and then a pile of flesh in the elevator would probably raise some eyebrows.

3 hours ago, lala2 said:

I believe Ruby did apply and was turned down. I totally understood her anger upon learning that Tamara was less qualified than her and still got the job. As you guys have mentioned, all black people (of a certain age) have learned that we have to be twice as good as our white counterparts to get anywhere. That's what my parents were taught and passed on to me and my sister.

It is entirely possible the manager passed on Ruby b/c he was not physically attracted to her or thought she was too "big" to be one of their employees. Who knows?! That last scene w/him was great! And great use of that Cardi B song! I agree w/those who think he will be too embarrassed to say anything about what happened. 

I want to say in episode 1, Ruby tells Leti about applying to department stores, and Leti's like "still on that?" and Ruby's like, this time it's going to go right. So she may have applied to Field's in the past, but not for at least a month. Ruby had finally worked up the wherewithal to apply last episode, but got stopped in her tracks by the sight of Tamara and the expectation that Field's wouldn't possibly hire more than one black woman at a time. As far as we know, Ruby never got to the face-to-face stage with a manager in any previous attempt, and she certainly didn't in the most recent situation because she gave it up by virtue of seeing Tamara.

From what the manager said, though, Field's had come to the conclusion that hiring "coloreds" made sense from a money perspective, and some people quit because of it. So it's possible that Ruby short-circuited herself. There were potential openings for a saleswoman, and maybe if she had gone for it, she would have been hired. So the show may be trying to make a statement about another aspect of internalized racism that is insidious: how it leads us to put barriers in our own paths. Of course, it might be that she still is fundamentally right and would have gotten rejected under Blacklander (there can be only one) rules, or because she's not a size 4. Or that if she had gotten hired as Ruby, she would be in the same boat as Tamara or worse -- Tamara might have tried dissing and underrmining Ruby to try to get in with the white co-workers.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[DearEvette]

41 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I am a day late, but I’ve loved all of your comments. I also thought WHY did Ruby’s white self show up as a nondescript, mid height, mid weight White woman. Was that a choice? Why didn’t Ruby’s white version end up being a tall buxom Rubenisque (spelling) gorgeous white woman? I am so someone that thinks William just a persona Christina uses when she needs to navigate male spaces, but William looks like a male Christina. Or am I thinking too much and they just liked the actress. 

If I am not mistaken, Hillary was played by the same actress from episode 2 when they went to Ardham -- the one with the dogs who made not so veiled racist comments.  This makes me think that the magical blood they use is actually a real person's blood and that is who you turn in for the transformation.  So that makes we wonder if William was actually a real person, maybe Christina's brother and he really was killed but Christina uses his blood to make her William-skin?

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

If I am not mistaken, Hillary was played by the same actress from episode 2 when they went to Ardham -- the one with the dogs who made not so veiled racist comments.  This makes me think that the magical blood they use is actually a real person's blood and that is who you turn in for the transformation.  So that makes we wonder if William was actually a real person, maybe Christina's brother and he really was killed but Christina uses his blood to make her William-skin?

You aren't mistaken about the first part. 

If we are to take Christina at her word (which may be foolish, but so far I don't think she has outright lied about anything as Christina) William was actually in line to join the Chicago lodge when Lancaster killed him. So no real reason to think he is Christina's brother. We don't really know anything about how the lodges work, but it would make most sense to me if William were a Braithwaite that he would have joined the Ardham lodge with his old man. It also seems to me that Samuel Braithwaite would not tolerate anyone killing his son, let alone someone who doesn't even belong to a lodge. Finally, it seems to me that Samuel would potentially have used magic to bring his son back.

So I'm guessing that William is largely just a convenient shell, but maybe he and Christina were friends or lovers previously, or both studied under Epstein.

[Scarlett45]

25 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

If I am not mistaken, Hillary was played by the same actress from episode 2 when they went to Ardham -- the one with the dogs who made not so veiled racist comments.  This makes me think that the magical blood they use is actually a real person's blood and that is who you turn in for the transformation.  So that makes we wonder if William was actually a real person, maybe Christina's brother and he really was killed but Christina uses his blood to make her William-skin?

 

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

You aren't mistaken about the first part. 

If we are to take Christina at her word (which may be foolish, but so far I don't think she has outright lied about anything as Christina) William was actually in line to join the Chicago lodge when Lancaster killed him. So no real reason to think he is Christina's brother. We don't really know anything about how the lodges work, but it would make most sense to me if William were a Braithwaite that he would have joined the Ardham lodge with his old man. It also seems to me that Samuel Braithwaite would not tolerate anyone killing his son, let alone someone who doesn't even belong to a lodge. Finally, it seems to me that Samuel would potentially have used magic to bring his son back.

So I'm guessing that William is largely just a convenient shell, but maybe he and Christina were friends or lovers previously, or both studied under Epstein.

Thanks guys. I always assumed Christina designed William- if she had to be male why not at least look like herself, and the story Christina said was true, but it was about herself disguised as William. 

 

28 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But because gay and lesbian relationships are so marginalized already, I don't know if there was a conventional societal wisdom take on white/black women and white/black men.

 

Yeah- but even in a LGBT space, the white person had the privilege as soon as they left the space. Even if the relationship was 100% consensual and “honorable” the white person had the most power to fuck up the brown person’s life or likely more often get out of the consequences if the relationship was found out. 
 

But I don’t think Ruby is going to experience a sexual awakening. William was a man. Male body, identified as a man (a hot one at that). Christina being in disguise doesn’t change Ruby being attracted to men. Although both actresses that play Christina and Ruby are gorgeous in very different ways so if it goes there beautiful people getting it on is never a bad thing. 

[AnimeMania]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I always look forward to the show, but I am particularly interested in seeing how it deals with the black-Asian relationship next week.

Most American soldier relationships were probably "What happens in Korea, stays in Korea." Told so skillfully in "The Clash" song "Straight to Hell" about the children made during the Vietnam War. Since this is Tic, there will be genuine feelings involved and he would probably want to bring her to America. But, (I am guessing) she is psychic, somehow in tune the the language of the Book of Names and wanted no part in the journey that Tic was going to be making. 

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Thanks guys. I always assumed Christina designed William- if she had to be male why not at least look like herself, and the story Christina said was true, but it was about herself disguised as William. 

I am not sure that Lancaster would have been able to pull the trigger to shoot William in the back if he was the same person as Christina at that time.

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

 

Thanks guys. I always assumed Christina designed William- if she had to be male why not at least look like herself, and the story Christina said was true, but it was about herself disguised as William. 

 

Yeah- but even in a LGBT space, the white person had the privilege as soon as they left the space. Even if the relationship was 100% consensual and “honorable” the white person had the most power to fuck up the brown person’s life or likely more often get out of the consequences if the relationship was found out. 
 

But I don’t think Ruby is going to experience a sexual awakening. William was a man. Male body, identified as a man (a hot one at that). Christina being in disguise doesn’t change Ruby being attracted to men. Although both actresses that play Christina and Ruby are gorgeous in very different ways so if it goes there beautiful people getting it on is never a bad thing. 

True about privilege continuing to work outside any bubble., at a minimum I just don't know about interracial queer relationships to know historically either how much mainstream culture carred about the interracial part or how much queer culture cared about the interracial part.

 Thinking more about Ruby and what she experienced/did in this episode plus what Chrilliam did, it is simultaneously inteesting and frustrating. 

Ruby was given access to power and money like few - black or white - have ever known.  That fat stack of cash left on the dresser (presumably all $20s) is quiite possibly a good chunk of a year's worth of salary at Field's, just casually laid out for her with the implication that Chrillliam had plenty more where that came from and there could be more if Ruby needed it. She could have tried to analyze the magic: learn more about what possibilities there are, see if she could learn to do other things, or at least transform into other people. Even if she is a one-trick pony, there are a bunch of things she could have used that one trick for. Even putting aside using her newfound whiteness to help other people of color generally, she could have better positioned Ruby Baptiste and her family in a way better way. And I suppose she may still.  Proving to herself that she could have succeeded at Field's if she were just white is ultimately such a narrow vision. And hopefully it is one she has transcended to start asking what it is she really wants.

Similarly, I think she may be going on a similar journey sexually. She started off resistant to the idea of fucking William because she knew that William was white an she knew about white boys trying to fuck black women. But whether it was loneliness, depression, horniness, magic, or some combo of all that, she gives in and opens herself up. She experiences first-hand that we are more than the bodies we happen to be born with. She hears William express wanting to kiss her however she wants to be kissed. And finally, William opens himself up and reveals that he's really Christina. It is worth noting, I think, that Chrilliam hasn't tried anything sexual or physical as far as we are shown since stair sex. I suppose there are at least a couple ways to read that. It could be that Chrilliam is giving Ruby space to decide what she does want and if Ruby wanted to bone again in either form, Chrilliam would be more than happy to oblige. Or it could be that Chrilliam was just having sex with Ruby as part of the con game and having achieved the goal there's no need. Or Chrilliam can be more of a hit-it-and-quit-it kind of witch.

Anyway, a question it brings to mind is what is the root of the attraction between Ruby and William? Is it that William's got a strong, muscular body? His whiteness? His power and money? His willingness to listen and be supportive? His promise to make her dreams come true? His having (perhaps) literally put a spell on her? How much is it contingent on him having a penis? 

One of the things that occurred to me that we haven't really discussed is again the ambiguity of where Christina is at. Again, on the one hand, she is offering to make Ruby's dreams come true and she appears supporting and loving. The price for the Faustian bargain she offered is relatively small, at least on the surface.

But on the other hand, we should draw attention to the fact that Chrilliam friggin' magic roofied Ruby. Ruby had never said expressly, "You know what, if someone could make me a white woman, I'd love that." The most she said was to complain that if she had William's skin, she wouldn't even have to be a part of the rat race. Without Ruby's knowledge or consent, Chrilliam slipped her a drug that had disgusting and painful side effects when they wore off and left her to experience the results with no initial explanation of what was going on.  That is so not OK, and the episode never really takes Chrilliam for task about it.

Another thing that occurs to me is how sad it is that Ruby is apparently isolated from the rest of her family. The events of this episode must take place over roughly a week at minimum, I figure. (Day one: initial transformation. Day two: second transformation and enjoying upside of being a white woman. Day three: application to Field's. Day four: first day on the job. Day five: day where the Field's crew goes to the South Side bar. Day six: HillaRuby's revenge.) During that time, Ruby apparently makes no attempt to contact Leti or her brother Marvin about what she has experienced. That is a long time, IMO unrealistically long, for someone to not do such a reveal about such earthshaking revelations as magic being real and I have this ability now. Of course, if Ruby had shown to Leti that she had been exposed to magic, let alone that she was screwing a white guy named William who was connected to magic, the jig would have been well and truly up. So Chrilliam is darn lucky that Ruby didn't do that. 

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Most American soldier relationships were probably "What happens in Korea, stays in Korea." Told so skillfully in "The Clash" song "Straight to Hell" about the children made during the Vietnam War. Since this is Tic, there will be genuine feelings involved and he would probably want to bring her to America. But, (I am guessing) she is psychic, somehow in tune the the language of the Book of Names and wanted no part in the journey that Tic was going to be making. 

I am not sure that Lancaster would have been able to pull the trigger to shoot William in the back if he was the same person as Christina at that time.

The dynamics for white soldiers would likely be different than for black soldiers. One of the things that pop culture and history tends to do is portray issues as white-black or white-minority, when there are in reality a lot of dynamics within minority groups and between minority groups that may come to play. 

I don't think the episode said specifically how Lancaster killed William. But assuming for discussion's sake that it said he shot William in the back, a few things: 

1. Christina could have developed her invulnerability spell at some point after being shot as William

2. Christina may have to give up her invulnerability ability to become/exist as William, just as Samuel had to give up his invulnerability/immortality to attempt to cast the going-back-to-Eden spell

3. Since Lancaster is a lodge wannabe, he could have figured out a way to counteract the invulnerability spell. 

This discussion is largely academic. I think there's no real reason to suspect Christina and William always were the same person, especially since Samuel Braithwaite would not have tolerated his daughter/son being killed by some upstart.

[sempervivum]

19 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

It's interesting that Ruby assumed she needed all that education to work at Fields, when we don't even know what the qualifications to work there were. We really don't even know if there were any particular educational requirements to work the counter there, even for the white women. We might could presume that being reasonably attractive, well-spoken and well put together might be enough to work the counter, and Tamara presented those things.

I worked in a high end department store equivalent to Fields in Milwaukee (90 miles from Chicago) from 1971-78. Obviously, 15 years after our show's timeline, but even in the 70's, you did need a high school diploma-primarily because the cash registers were still quite primitive, there were no cheap hand calculators yet, and the salesclerks needed to be able to do math in their heads. I had to pass both a reading/writing and math test.

BTW, my supervisor when I started was a young Black woman, who everyone adored ❤️Connie ❤️

 

[Starchild]

I think William was real and was killed. I see a clue to that in Ruby's spelled appearance: a real woman who was killed. The sample size is admittedly small for this supposition, but it seems that the potion is made with the blood of someone who has died by violence. Perhaps that is why the transformation itself is also violent.

I found myself wondering why Christina would need Ruby at all. If she has the ability, why not just transform herself into a black maid in order to infiltrate the lodge meeting and plant the totem (it looked like a painted rock or something). I'm guessing it's because she didn't have the blood of a murdered black woman, so had to find a way to manipulate a living one.

So Christina wasn't ready to simply murder a black woman just to use her blood in a potion. Does that mean she might be a relative "good guy" in this story?

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

I think William was real and was killed. I see a clue to that in Ruby's spelled appearance: a real woman who was killed. The sample size is admittedly small for this supposition, but it seems that the potion is made with the blood of someone who has died by violence. Perhaps that is why the transformation itself is also violent.

I don't think they said William was dead, just that Lancaster shot William in the back and left him for dead. I especially don't think the woman that Leti hit in the head with a gun is dead because that might mean that Leti is the murderer and I don't think the show would go there. Here is what happened in the book, please don't read unless you want to know. 

Spoiler

The woman that Leti hit in the head with a gun is in a coma and they used her blood to make the potion, so that is why Ruby looks like her.

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by AnimeMania

[rollacoaster]

2 hours ago, sempervivum said:

I worked in a high end department store equivalent to Fields in Milwaukee (90 miles from Chicago) from 1971-78. Obviously, 15 years after our show's timeline, but even in the 70's, you did need a high school diploma-primarily because the cash registers were still quite primitive, there were no cheap hand calculators yet, and the salesclerks needed to be able to do math in their heads. I had to pass both a reading/writing and math test.

BTW, my supervisor when I started was a young Black woman, who everyone adored ❤️Connie ❤️

 

Thanks for chiming in on this! Great to hear from someone with insider knowledge, so to speak. 

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

I think William was real and was killed. I see a clue to that in Ruby's spelled appearance: a real woman who was killed. The sample size is admittedly small for this supposition, but it seems that the potion is made with the blood of someone who has died by violence. Perhaps that is why the transformation itself is also violent.

I found myself wondering why Christina would need Ruby at all. If she has the ability, why not just transform herself into a black maid in order to infiltrate the lodge meeting and plant the totem (it looked like a painted rock or something). I'm guessing it's because she didn't have the blood of a murdered black woman, so had to find a way to manipulate a living one.

So Christina wasn't ready to simply murder a black woman just to use her blood in a potion. Does that mean she might be a relative "good guy" in this story?

I suspect that Christina didn't want to assume the form of a Black woman and portray a maid. She's obsessed with power and already at the pinnacle of white female privilege.  She wouldn't take on a form she considered to be lesser. 

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

I suspect that Christina didn't want to assume the form of a Black woman and portray a maid.

Also, the magic potion quality control seems unreliable...she might have reverted to original form before planting the rock.....

[Scarlett45]

15 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In defense of Montrose, it's not unreasonable to think that when the lodges learn that a) Our Heroes have additional pages from the Book of Names and b) they have a living/unliving person who knows the language of Adam and worked directly with Titus, that all hell would rain down on them and the only way to avoid that is to kill Yahima and burn the pages. An argument could also be made that cutting Yahima's throat is a mercy killing compared to what the lodges would do once they learned of Yahima's existence. (And the lodges surely would find out sooner or later). There is also potentially the self-hating part of Montrose that comes to play and the notion that violence has been made his first reaction thanks to intergenerational trauma.

I agree with this. Poor Yahima has been through enough, and I was heart broken to see her rescued and then killed, but Montrose didn’t kill her for shits and giggles. He wants Tic and Leti to stay the fuck away from all of this so they have the best chance to stay safe - he did it to protect Tic. While I don’t agree with his methods I understand where he’s coming from. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

So put yourself in Ruby's shoes (before or after she used them on creepy boss):

What would you do once you were introduced to the notion that magic was real, a hot person was willing to share at least the power to physically trasform yourself, and gave you cash in exchange for a favor to be named later?

I would be super-suspicious because I've watched enough TV to know this isn't likely to end well for me.

But once I got over that, I would:

• Be wanting to soak up info about what the scope of magic is and what I can and cannot do;
• Take the money. Can't always use my looks as currency, and not everyone is just going to hand me free ice cream
• Use it to joke with and support my friends and family, or get all sorts of petty revenge on people

I for sure would not use it just to get a better 9-to-5.

[Sheenieb]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So put yourself in Ruby's shoes (before or after she used them on creepy boss):

What would you do once you were introduced to the notion that magic was real, a hot person was willing to share at least the power to physically trasform yourself, and gave you cash in exchange for a favor to be named later?

I would be super-suspicious because I've watched enough TV to know this isn't likely to end well for me.

But once I got over that, I would:

• Be wanting to soak up info about what the scope of magic is and what I can and cannot do;
• Take the money. Can't always use my looks as currency, and not everyone is just going to hand me free ice cream
• Use it to joke with and support my friends and family, or get all sorts of petty revenge on people

I for sure would not use it just to get a better 9-to-5.

A blogger I follow mentioned that Ruby should've dreamed bigger. I get the point, but I do wonder if it's a fair critique. Are we looking at this through our 2020 eyes? Working at Fields would be small today, but considering that there weren't many opportunities for Black people back then, working at Fields was the dream.  But since she realized how fucked up it all was, maybe she will use the potion to do bigger things.

To answer your question, I agree that I would've definitely learned the ins and outs of magic. I would've wanted to know what I can do with it while in my own body. I wouldn't have the stomach to keep passing. That has to take a toll physically.

[shoetingstar]

2 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

A blogger I follow mentioned that Ruby should've dreamed bigger. I get the point, but I do wonder if it's a fair critique. Are we looking at this through our 2020 eyes? Working at Fields would be small today, but considering that there weren't many opportunities for Black people back then, working at Fields was the dream.  But since she realized how fucked up it all was, maybe she will use the potion to do bigger things.

To answer your question, I agree that I would've definitely learned the ins and outs of magic. I would've wanted to know what I can do with it while in my own body. I wouldn't have the stomach to keep passing. That has to take a toll physically.

They definitely missed the Context. In fact, so many of the comments I've seen around various sites are really not grounding their critiques in the reality of Ruby's situation or the historical accuracy for that period. We need to literally walk in her shoes. On one hand, to work for a department store seems so basic to us now. She couldn't even enter certain establishments at that time because of her skin. Her goal was both basic and a lofty. I think that is the point.

I think the comments in this site (The Department Store Museum) below explain the Marshall Fields reputation so well. Personally, seeing the Legendary Christmas window displays as an Adult before it closed, made me feel like a hopeful kid again. It's hard to explain!

Quote

 

Anonymous11 December, 2011 12:25

I was a buyer for this chain, and I can't even tell you the amount of pride that would well up inside of you when you stood on the selling floor of your department and just looked around. I have bought for 4 other companies, but the Marshall Fields downtown store took my breath away every visit. I buy for a national chain now, and I long to feel those feelings. It started as a child when I went uptown with my grandmother. The smell, the sights....sigh... I am so glad you are trying to preserve some of this for future generations, although I truly wish they could experience it as I did. Let's all keep documenting it with stories and pictures so it does not just fade away. Thanks

Reply

 

Quote

 

BAK12 December, 2011 10:04

I really appreciate your comments . . . they are very accurate indeed and sum up a very, very special place. As an infrequent visitor to Chicago, it was always a pleasure to walk through those doors because Field's was unique. It is hard to describe today what that means, but your comment about "the smells, the sights" allows a little window into the store which was truly the best in the US.

In particular, I celebrate small details that helped the store have its own character, like the beautifully hand lettered signs on pedestals throughout the store which made it seem somehow "human," the character of the (beautifully dressed) sales staff, or the aisle after aisle of substantial counters which gave the first floor a museum-like quality.

Thanks for remembering with me.

Bruce

 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

A blogger I follow mentioned that Ruby should've dreamed bigger. I get the point, but I do wonder if it's a fair critique. Are we looking at this through our 2020 eyes? Working at Fields would be small today, but considering that there weren't many opportunities for Black people back then, working at Fields was the dream.  But since she realized how fucked up it all was, maybe she will use the potion to do bigger things.

To answer your question, I agree that I would've definitely learned the ins and outs of magic. I would've wanted to know what I can do with it while in my own body. I wouldn't have the stomach to keep passing. That has to take a toll physically.

I don't think it's so much an issue of modern-day eyes as TPTB wanted to tell this particular story, so they did.

I think if most of the other characters in the show had a similar seductive introduction to magic as Ruby, they would have been way more imaginative and curious about the parameters.

George, Hippolyta, Dee and Tic all probably would have spent hours and hours reading spellbooks before ever venturing out, with all drawing from their knowledge of sci-fi and pulp to inform whatever actions they took then. Montrose might be more distrusting and turn the offer down, but if he didn't, he would also be on the study and bigger-plans train, I think. Or maybe not. Maybe he would just use magic to get high, hook up with people, and inflict violence.

Leti probably just jump in with two feet. Even if she didn't do anything but keep the shapeshifting ability, Leti would have a) for sure taken the money and b) used the magic for something more than her own gratification.

Heck, even Tree would probably think about more angles than using magic to live up to his nickname and get laid, although of course he would do that.

It definitely is putting the finger on the scale to make the transformation so painful, limited and gross. To be able to pass without leaaving a trail of blood and skin behind would be more tempting.

18 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

They definitely missed the Context. In fact, so many of the comments I've seen around various sites are really not grounding their critiques in the reality of Ruby's situation or the historical accuracy for that period. We need to literally walk in her shoes. On one hand, to work for a department store seems so basic to us now. She couldn't even enter certain establishments at that time because of her skin. Her goal was both basic and a lofty. I think that is the point.

I think the comments in this site (The Department Store Museum) below explain the Marshall Fields reputation so well. Personally, seeing the Legendary Christmas window displays as an Adult before it closed, made me feel like a hopeful kid again. It's hard to explain!

 

I definitely get the grandeur that is Field's, having gone there while growing up (and in the before-times when we left our homes, I still would shop and eat occasionally at the Macy's that has replaced it). I get that for Ruby, working there means a lot more than a paycheck. It means recognition, a chance to give people that feeling of satisfaction and validation that her mom got while shopping Carson's, and other things.

[shoetingstar]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think it's so much an issue of modern-day eyes as TPTB wanted to tell this particular story, so they did.

I think if most of the other characters in the show had a similar seductive introduction to magic as Ruby, they would have been way more imaginative and curious about the parameters.

George, Hippolyta, Dee and Tic all probably would have spent hours and hours reading spellbooks before ever venturing out, with all drawing from their knowledge of sci-fi and pulp to inform whatever actions they took then. Montrose might be more distrusting and turn the offer down, but if he didn't, he would also be on the study and bigger-plans train, I think. Or maybe not. Maybe he would just use magic to get high, hook up with people, and inflict violence.

Leti probably just jump in with two feet. Even if she didn't do anything but keep the shapeshifting ability, Leti would have a) for sure taken the money and b) used the magic for something more than her own gratification.

Heck, even Tree would probably think about more angles than using magic to live up to his nickname and get laid, although of course he would do that.

It definitely is putting the finger on the scale to make the transformation so painful, limited and gross. To be able to pass without leaaving a trail of blood and skin behind would be more tempting.

I definitely get the grandeur that is Field's, having gone there while growing up (and in the before-times when we left our homes, I still would shop and eat occasionally at the Macy's that has replaced it). I get that for Ruby, working there means a lot more than a paycheck. It means recognition, a chance to give people that feeling of satisfaction and validation that her mom got while shopping Carson's, and other things.

But Ruby hasn't witnessed or experienced all that shit Tic  have and Leti had up until this episode. Leti was always free-spirited and has died and come back to life.  Leti is now trying to be do "the right thing" for others, for the first time in her life owing to her recent experiences and new knowledge. I may be giving the writers too much credit, but another angle is Ruby being the older and responsible one who took care of others - her dreams of freedom would look different than the younger, always did what she wanted to - Leti. Perhaps, because she was so responsible before she took the one chance to be (safely?) reckless, but not too reckless. Ruby is an artist - so she has creativity, but she is also always saw the bigger picture. Leti was badass taking a bat to the cars. Reckless - cool but reckless with what the police could have done to her. Ruby rolled up with the car so they could throw the guns and bat inside and she could drive them away. Practical, helping everyone. 

Also, the potion had limits and parameters to the Magic, I'm not sure I would want to be too far from William, my supplier and guide until I knew more. Just like Let is staying close to Tic and his family.

There's lots of layers there and that's why I love this episode so much. Even when I don't agree with other comments, its a testament to the richness of the episode that there is so much to discuss and many ways of seeing things. 

 

 

[paigow]

This episode was also a twist on Alice In Wonderland / The Matrix ... Ruby went through a looking glass involuntarily and was given the Red / Blue pill choice thereafter. What were the career options for Hillary Davenport? Politician? Athlete? Movie Star? Titan of Industry? Private Detective? Criminal Mastermind? Socialite? Spy? 

[shoetingstar]

20 hours ago, paigow said:

This episode was also a twist on Alice In Wonderland / The Matrix ... Ruby went through a looking glass involuntarily and was given the Red / Blue pill choice thereafter. What were the career options for Hillary Davenport? Politician? Athlete? Movie Star? Titan of Industry? Private Detective? Criminal Mastermind? Socialite? Spy? 

Great observation! And we literally got Ruby Red Slippers so the Wizard of Oz (movie version) as well! (the film version at least, the book had silver slippers).

[Mr. R0b0t]

FWIW I don't think the sheriff had a skin graft, but an actual torso of a black person.  Hiram was a doctor that experimented with grafting bodies together as we saw with the piecemeal ghosts previously.  He's more of a Frankensteins monster.

I believe HillaRuby was not having a great time on the Southside because she looked longingly toward the band and realized that no matter how bad she may want to be thoroughly involved or even up there singing she could not because she was trapped inside the body of someone who could never be accepted in that role in that bar in that moment.

[wanderingstar]

On 9/13/2020 at 11:42 PM, Cotypubby said:

Those transformations. Holy shit those were disgusting and incredibly well done. 

Hope the makeup and VFX people for this show get ALL the awards!