S02.E04: More to It Than Fun

[Starlight925]

7 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Can someone explain to me how buying the house in La Jolla, the one Dan never intended to live, screwed over Betty? Did he put the house in her name?

 

7 hours ago, geauxaway said:

I think *think* it was smaller and older.  She mentioned it being a tear down.  The land, location and view were exceptional.  But the actual house was not to the standard Betty had become accustomed to.  

I also think it was a way for Dan to screw her over financially.

By buying that house for "them", he "gave" it to her in the divorce.  But since it was in his name, it was still legally his, after the divorce would be final.  He knew there was no way she could afford it, even with the $16,000/month she was granted.  Plus, any money she'd be paying towards the mortgage, would be going to Dan.  So after the divorce, she had to move out, and he got to sell it and keep its profits.

That's my limited understanding.  I'm reading the Stumbo book now (thanks to those who recommended it!  Love it!), and I'm sure I'll have a better understanding.

 

 

[Starlight925]

17 hours ago, SuzieQ said:

I would think Betty, Dan and Linda all suffered from this.  The only innocents were the kids.  Lots of carnage on them.  Even if Betty didn't do what she did, those kids had a rough road!

Agree 100.  I think they are all narcissists, and this story is what happens when 2 (or 3) narcissistic personalities collide.

On 6/19/2020 at 10:43 PM, Razzberry said:

Narcissists never admit they're wrong, so this fits.  She was diagnosed as narcissistic with a histrionic personality.  Dan didn't cause it, but leaving a narcissist is not something you do and get away with.  It's not a mental illness that can be treated.  They know right from wrong, they just don't care.

Agree here too!  Narcissists are never wrong.  It's always someone else's fault.  There is nothing more scary than a narcissist who has been discarded.  

Spoiler

Looking up some of Betty Broderick's interviews on youtube shows that she remains victimized, always someone else's fault, zero remorse.  Dan was equally culpable, as he too was a narcissist (I believe). Difference is, she committed pre-meditated murder, which also makes her a psychopath (again, my belief).

On 6/18/2020 at 10:35 PM, teapot said:

Any RHOC peeps here?  I was reminded of Shannon Beador.  Luckily, she got over it, took her sweet settlement & her beautiful daughters & dog (Archie!), lost the weight & got on with it

So yeah, I've been watching RHOC for years, and I remember "meeting" Shannon & David, and from the first time I saw them, something was way off.

I still think something is so off about them both.  David with his "hot" girlfriend and his spiky-haired, naked butt-exposing selfies (yuck), and Shannon with her constant shrieking.  Shannon "appears" happy with her new guy, but she's still a shrieking mess.  She was definitely a victim of David's adultery and cold behavior, and I do think David was trying to make her financial life a mess.  But the difference between her & Betty B. is that Shannon has income from this show, her (seems to be failing) diet food line, etc.  Betty had a few years of teaching under her belt, so there was no way she'd ever make up that income.

Putting the remainder in Spoilers, as well, it contains spoilers:

Spoiler

I agree though, that Shannon does seem to have moved on, and while I bet she's had fantasies of blowing David's brains out, her conscious self stops her.  While people can argue that Betty simply "snapped", and it was just a terrible "moment", I'll never see it that way, as she maintains her position as a victim and continues, to this day, to dig her heels in her lack of remorse and justification for her action.

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Sterling

[poeticlicensed]

8 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Can someone explain to me how buying the house in La Jolla, the one Dan never intended to live, screwed over Betty? Did he put the house in her name?

He managed to set her up in separate digs with solidified the separation. He put down 140k but planned to take the 140k back out of the divorce settlement. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Infidel. Never heard a marital cheater referred to that way. I guess it's technically correct but today that word has taken on quite a different and troublesome meaning.

Da fuq? Did Dan plant those rats in the house or did Linda? Just diabolical.

Betty literally abandoning her children like that was not smart. But Dan could not have anticipated that she'd dump her kids on the curb just to try to make some weird point. Betty likely was not a great chess player.

Quote

Mr. Katimski

Heh, I remembered Jeff Perry from Scandal. Therefore, I was largely uninclined to believe a word that expert witness said. 🙄

Is it known whether Dan had cheated on Betty before Linda? If he hadn't I wonder if things might've gone differently if Linda hadn't been flirting with him when she was the receptionist. Or would Dan just have found a different woman?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Joimiaroxeu

[DangerousMinds]

I’m sure lots of young receptionists were impressed by Dan and flirted with him. It was on him to keep things entirely professional. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Oh I'm not saying Dan was blameless. But it seemed to me like Linda targeted him similar to the way he targeted Betty at the beginning. Wonder if he had a "game recognize game" moment with Linda, or was trading Betty in for a newer model just another part of his long-term plan and Linda just happened to be the one.

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, Sterling said:

By buying that house for "them", he "gave" it to her in the divorce.  But since it was in his name, it was still legally his, after the divorce would be final.  He knew there was no way she could afford it, even with the $16,000/month she was granted.  Plus, any money she'd be paying towards the mortgage, would be going to Dan.  So after the divorce, she had to move out, and he got to sell it and keep its profits.

In California, there is a legal concept called "Epstein credits."  This was mentioned briefly during this episode.  Essentially, a divorcing spouse has the right to be reimbursed by the other spouse for one-half of separate property money used after the date of separation to pay a community debt.  For example, if Dan is paying out of his post-separation money, the mortgage for a house that is solely used by Betty during the separation, he has a right to seek reimbursement of 1/2 of that cost from any community property money owed to Betty in the divorce.  That's why it can be so damaging for a spouse to drag out a divorce, because the credits start running from the date of separation and you could lose a lot of community property money in that way.  So by dragging out the divorce, Betty cost herself money.        

[lovesnark]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Oh I'm not saying Dan was blameless. But it seemed to me like Linda targeted him similar to the way he targeted Betty at the beginning. Wonder if he had a "game recognize game" moment with Linda, or was trading Betty in for a newer model just another part of his long-term plan and Linda just happened to be the one.

I think he'd been done with their marriage for quite a while and Linda just happened to be in the right place at the right time. If he hadn't met Linda, I think he may have tried to stick it out with Betty for a little while longer, but would have left whether he had a girlfriend or not. Linda just helped it happen sooner.

 

[lovesnark]

28 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

In California, there is a legal concept called "Epstein credits."  This was mentioned briefly during this episode.  Essentially, a divorcing spouse has the right to be reimbursed by the other spouse for one-half of separate property money used after the date of separation to pay a community debt.  For example, if Dan is paying out of his post-separation money, the mortgage for a house that is solely used by Betty during the separation, he has a right to seek reimbursement of 1/2 of that cost from any community property money owed to Betty in the divorce.  That's why it can be so damaging for a spouse to drag out a divorce, because the credits start running from the date of separation and you could lose a lot of community property money in that way.  So by dragging out the divorce, Betty cost herself money.        

She really did screw herself out of so much! If she'd listened to and worked with the first attorney, she could have come away with a much larger settlement. Her refusal to even consider paying his retainer herself (she could have sold a piece of jewelry to come up with the money, she had plenty) and recovering it in the final divorce settlement was so damaging. She was so stuck on hate and rage, she was totally blind to everything else.

Also, if she'd had a good attorney working for her, Dan would not have been able to get away with shady deals to hide assets.

She reminds me of my best friend's ex husband to a far lesser degree. He refused to listen to his attorney and because of his stubbornness and stupidity, lost every round in court. Like Betty, he was spiteful and malicious and wound up spending thousands on a criminal defense attorney on top of his divorce attorney for having no respect for the law and no contact orders.

[PepSinger]

Thank you, everyone, for answering my question. It makes a lot more sense now.

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, lovesnark said:

She really did screw herself out of so much! If she'd listened to and worked with the first attorney, she could have come away with a much larger settlement. Her refusal to even consider paying his retainer herself (she could have sold a piece of jewelry to come up with the money, she had plenty) and recovering it in the final divorce settlement was so damaging. She was so stuck on hate and rage, she was totally blind to everything else.

Didn't help that she was also in so much denial for the longest time. "Oh, he'll never go through with the divorce, that's happening to other people, not us. Dan'll come back." No, he won't, Betty. Even when she suspected his affair with Linda, she still tried to convince herself that if she just did this or acted like that that maybe they could still save their marriage. She took way too long to recognize that the marriage was over, and had pretty well been over for some time, even before official divorce proceedings began.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

I do not feel at all sorry for Betty Broderick.  Lots of people get divorced, lots of people have affairs, nothing justifies her behavior. Nothing. She murdered two people, one being the father of her children because she couldn’t handle him leaving her. Her “If I can’t have him no one will” mentality, combined with her unwillingness to take responsibility, or express remorse over the years will garner zero sympathy from me. I also strongly disagree with the characterization of lying about an affair as “Gaslighting” or “ Brainwashing”. Give me a break. I hope she spends the rest of her life in prison.

I really don't think anyone here is feeling sorry for her regardless of her actions, or sorry that she was punished for them. It's possible to feel sorry for how a person was treated prior to those actions., even if those actions were extreme, illegal, and morally wrong. I definitely feel sorry for her; "feel sorry for" is not synonymous with "murder is justified in this instance."

Just plain lying isn't "gaslighting"--gaslighting is gaslighting. He did more than lie about it.

Quote

I think he'd been done with their marriage for quite a while and Linda just happened to be in the right place at the right time. 

I found myself wondering if he'd ever not been "done' with the marriage, much less actually interested in marriage other than as a box to check on a list titled "What I need to be a fancy successful guy" (plus, he got a baby factory, a housekeeper, a study buddy, a typist, an errand runner, and a financial [however meager] contributor).

Edited June 21, 2020 by TattleTeeny

[lovesnark]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

Didn't help that she was also in so much denial for the longest time. "Oh, he'll never go through with the divorce, that's happening to other people, not us. Dan'll come back." No, he won't, Betty. Even when she suspected his affair with Linda, she still tried to convince herself that if she just did this or acted like that that maybe they could still save their marriage. She took way too long to recognize that the marriage was over, and had pretty well been over for some time, even before official divorce proceedings began.

If Dan were to rise from the dead today, she'd believe there was a chance they could get back together and would start harassing him from prison.

[Starlight925]

7 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

In California, there is a legal concept called "Epstein credits."  This was mentioned briefly during this episode.  Essentially, a divorcing spouse has the right to be reimbursed by the other spouse for one-half of separate property money used after the date of separation to pay a community debt.  For example, if Dan is paying out of his post-separation money, the mortgage for a house that is solely used by Betty during the separation, he has a right to seek reimbursement of 1/2 of that cost from any community property money owed to Betty in the divorce.  That's why it can be so damaging for a spouse to drag out a divorce, because the credits start running from the date of separation and you could lose a lot of community property money in that way.  So by dragging out the divorce, Betty cost herself money.        

Thank you for this expanded explanation.  I had never heard of Epstein credits prior to hearing it in this episode. 

BTW, love your user name.  Horns ‘84 here!  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

18 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Heh, I remembered Jeff Perry from Scandal. Therefore, I was largely uninclined to believe a word that expert witness said. 🙄

Awww, Mr. Katimski was a kind-hearted, guileless, yet dorky high school teacher who was always trying to get his students to sign up for the drama club and took in a student who'd been kicked out for being gay so I had no trouble trusting that guy as an expert witness. He was only in 4 episodes but that character is who I always see him as (heh, when he's playing someone who's a jerk, I keep waiting for Mr. Katimski to snap out of it).

[DangerousMinds]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Awww, Mr. Katimski was a kind-hearted, guileless, yet dorky high school teacher who was always trying to get his students to sign up for the drama club and took in a student who'd been kicked out for being gay so I had no trouble trusting that guy as an expert witness. He was only in 4 episodes but that character is who I always see him as (heh, when he's playing someone who's a jerk, I keep waiting for Mr. Katimski to snap out of it).

Yes! I ALWAYS see that character when I see that actor.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I found myself wondering if he'd ever not been "done' with the marriage, much less actually interested in marriage other than as a box to check on a list titled "What I need to be a fancy successful guy" (plus, he got a baby factory, a housekeeper, a study buddy, a typist, an errand runner, and a financial [however meager] contributor).

Yeah, maybe to him Betty was always a like an employee he got to sleep with. Eventually she would be "retired" and he'd hire someone younger. Hard to figure where the kids fit though. Guess they were just collateral damage in his mind, or they were "employees" in service of his image as well.

[chocolatine]

6 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Yeah, maybe to him Betty was always a like an employee he got to sleep with. Eventually she would be "retired" and he'd hire someone younger. Hard to figure where the kids fit though. Guess they were just collateral damage in his mind, or they were "employees" in service of his image as well.

I think it's the latter. In his mind, Betty would just accept the situation and whatever settlement he'd choose to let her have, and she would continue doing the bulk of the childrearing work. He would just see the kids every other weekend and trot them out at a few social functions to show the world that he's still a family-oriented man.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Opening scene:

Dan Explains His Birthday Absence

Dan Hears About Linda's Loose Lips

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I found myself wondering if he'd ever not been "done' with the marriage, much less actually interested in marriage other than as a box to check on a list titled "What I need to be a fancy successful guy" (plus, he got a baby factory, a housekeeper, a study buddy, a typist, an errand runner, and a financial [however meager] contributor).

I think Dan needed a wife as a status symbol and to keep a good house, plan a good party, pick up his dry cleaning, co-host dinners (and talk to the wives while the husbands talked shop), keep the kids brag and photo-worthy, etc. I don't think that he was interested in a true partnership with an emotional connection. 

I think Dan decided at some point that he would trade Betty for a younger model but I don't think that he would have left her without that second wife already lined up. I don't think that he would have enjoyed living alone, without someone to do all the chores listed above, especially the ones you can't respectably hire out. More importantly, though, Dan liked having an adoring wife that thought he was a genius. I think Betty lost some of her luster when she stopped hero worshiping him quite so much and Linda stepped in to fill that void. I don't know if Dan hit on Linda first or Linda set her cap for him or if they both sensed a mutual attraction and decided to act on it, but I do believe if Dan hadn't found Linda, it would have been someone else like her.

Quote

Interesting how Dan leapfrogged Linda from the likely minimum wage front desk building receptionist to making her a "paralegal" (without any classes or certification, no less) with her own corner office and likely a sizable increase in salary to go with it.  If I had been one of the other office workers, I'd have been furious, too.  They knew just how Linda had gotten that position.  Ugh.  (IIRC, in the book and in the Lifetime movie, one of his long-term workers resigned over the whole tawdry mess.  I missed about 10 minutes of last night's episode, so maybe they covered that incident.)

In fairness, neither Dan nor Linda claimed that Linda was a paralegal. She was Dan's "assistant." I'm sure that everyone else in the office, particularly the long-timers, were pissed off about it - I would have been too. I also don't think that Linda would have continued working much longer after they married, especially if she had children. I don't think that, in all the time she worked for Dan, she ever took classes or tried to broaden her skills. The job seems like it was a way for Dan to "keep" Linda and write it off as a business expense, as well as maybe give their constant contact some legitimacy. By some reports, Linda was smart and good at what she did but I would think that if she were ever really serious about any job besides becoming Mrs. Broderick she would have sought some sort of education or credentials.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Elizzikra

[Nordly Beaumont]

47 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

she ever took classes or tried to broaden her skills.

Well, we did get the riveting "Linda learns to type" montage! I mean, that triumphant moment when she finally was able to type "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs" was thrilling!  Of course she typed it in ALL CAPS - I guess the "finding the shift key" montage was cut. Honestly, the fact that they thought this made good tv - or was worth spending three scenes on - made me roll my eyes so hard and I really haven't been into the show since then. Especially since knowing how to type was the least of any skills that would make her a proper assistant.

[Elizzikra]

1 hour ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

Well, we did get the riveting "Linda learns to type" montage! I mean, that triumphant moment when she finally was able to type "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dogs" was thrilling!  Of course she typed it in ALL CAPS - I guess the "finding the shift key" montage was cut. Honestly, the fact that they thought this made good tv - or was worth spending three scenes on - made me roll my eyes so hard and I really haven't been into the show since then. Especially since knowing how to type was the least of any skills that would make her a proper assistant.

That is true - I should have given her credit for at least that much...

[stonehaven]

I found the whole office romance portrayed skeevy as hell, especially in the era of METOO. All three were to blame for the clusterfuck to come but the office assistant telling her boss that she knows and everyone else knows about the affair was painful to watch. His reaction to her today would cause some legal issues for Dan. His favoritism of Linda whether it be sexual or whatnot creates a power imbalance at the office and Dan's lecture to the assistant is "hostile work environment". Today, that would simply not fly and open Dan to lawsuits and nasty scandals galore...but he's dead now, so there's that.

I find all three of the main characters to be so superficial that it's hard to care about any of them.

The random shout out to Knot's Landing and the Chip plotline made me smile though.

[Adiba]

On 6/7/2021 at 10:58 PM, stonehaven said:

I found the whole office romance portrayed skeevy as hell, especially in the era of METOO. All three were to blame for the clusterfuck to come but the office assistant telling her boss that she knows and everyone else knows about the affair was painful to watch. His reaction to her today would cause some legal issues for Dan. His favoritism of Linda whether it be sexual or whatnot creates a power imbalance at the office and Dan's lecture to the assistant is "hostile work environment". Today, that would simply not fly and open Dan to lawsuits and nasty scandals galore...but he's dead now, so there's that.

I find all three of the main characters to be so superficial that it's hard to care about any of them.

The random shout out to Knot's Landing and the Chip plotline made me smile though.

Re: bolded--true-- Dan hiring a person with no legal experience, no degree and no typing ability (at first) was bound to create problems in the workplace. Just because it is his firm doesn't mean that he would be immune to allegations of "hostile"work environment today.

Just started watching this series and have only made it to this episode so far. I know the rest of the story from other shows and the news--so I don't know if I'll be able to stomach the rest.

[oliviabenson]

Christian Bale played Dan so well! I enjoyed his acting.

Real Dan sure was handsome! And a dandy !

[Paloma]

On 6/17/2020 at 11:50 AM, Razzberry said:

From the time the kids were small she would tell them constantly they were getting a divorce and they needed to choose which parent they wanted to live with.

How do you know this? I didn't see anything like that in the show.