S15.E09 The Trap

[SueB]

Rob Benedict did a great job.  I watched again and he's so very good at shifting emotions from moment to moment - within the same sentence practically.  I'm left with a LOT of questions, but they feel more like clues than unanswered plots bits. So, he's my list of clues from this episode. TL;DR, read the bold. 

• WHY couldn't he personally dig out Sam's wound?  At first he thought physically removing something in Sam would do the trick.  Was it as simple as not getting his hands dirty?  Is it literally against his own nature? He had no problem using Eileen*. So I'm not sure it's squeamishness.  He wasn't afraid of the pain causing a boomerang back to him? Or was THAT it -- if Eileen hurt Sam, no boomerang? I'm going with that one. Because in the past, when Chuck showed pain it was when either he or Sam were touching the wound. Not when someone else did.  But it's also interesting that he knew it was something inside Sam KEEPING the tether.  
• The Casino is a metaphor. Chuck likes to gamble and win.  So he nudged Eileen in the direction of Sam, he left HALF a spell.  He gambled that Sam would figure it out and was delighted he did.  Not because he now got 'video with no audio' but because he bet on Sam acting in a certain way and he did.  Which is why Dean pisses off Chuck more than Sam, BTW. Because Dean's instinct will overcome his emotion & logic. He swerves in ways Chuck doesn't foresee more often. 
• "How are you still LIKE this?!" A moment of real Chuck, no pretense.  So Chuck realizes it's hope.  But his omniscient self had to figure it out because he couldn't "watch" his favorite show with the wound.  Once he figured it out, Chuck was delighted.  Again. I think both because he figured it out (he does NOT like not knowing) and because he could work with that. But it's insight, IMO. He likes to gamble but doesn't like to lose.
• Chuck gambled that Sam wanted to see the future. And won. I contend that WAS the future if you 'play the odds'. There IS some cosmic connection (hey, let's ask Death?  She would know) between Chuck's "light" and the balance with the monsters.  But to quote Yoda "always in motion is the future".  I think Chuck can look at any one moment and see the forward most-probable projection.  "This is the truth Sam, this is what comes next" was played like a HALF truth.  It didn't have the same lack of varnish that his anger at Sam did.  He LOOKS at Sam as he claims it's true.  I think he's holding something back. His objective is to put Sam into despair. So he can forceful state it's the future and it's not a direct lie. But it's a lie of omission. Because that future DOES shift.  Chuck showed the high probability future if the Trap was sprung.  And it's bad. But the ENTIRE time he's talking in the 'future vision' he's playing Sam just a bit.  NOW that the Trap is destroyed, there's a different future. But it was ENOUGH truth and Sam could see that. "Without me, it's a law of nature, dark forces prevail, monsters rule, and you, your brother and everyone you love will die." THAT line was spoken with conviction.  I didn't see any pretense or half-truth there.  And Chuck was also telling the truth that he thought it was a crappy ending.  He's spent many years with these 'characters', this is not what he wanted for them. 
• Why did Chuck let Cas and Dean bring the Trap to the Casino?  He JUST showed the future to Sam.  He knew there was a serious risk that they could trap Chuck.  And yet Chuck is not panicked.  In fact, I think he's REALLY enjoying this.  Because he has total faith in Sam.  He knows Sam won't let the future come to pass that he showed him.  But he still needed Sam to hit despair.  To release him from the wound.  So again, Chuck gambled that Sam would do the right thing and not Trap Chuck.  He also gambled, and won, that this would be a moment of despair for Sam.  And thus was freed.  And, IMO, once Chuck realized how to solve the problem (take away hope) and show the future, he was supremely confident in the outcome.  It was dramatic and elegant.  THIS is how Chuck has fun. I LOVED, BTW, how Sam looks so skeeved out when Chuck pats him on the knee as he talks about their 'friendship'.  You go Sam! 
• Sam's visions weren't drafts, they were memories.  That was played as 'truth'.  No need for Chuck to lie about it.  So far, all those timelines must have come to their 'conclusion' before THIS timeline. Which means this Sam and Dean have lasted longer than most.  Go TFW!
•  Chuck LOVES taking the bet that Dean laid before him. That "Not this Sam and not this Dean . So you go back to Earth 2 or and play with your other toys. Because we will never give you the ending that you want."  Game on.  Personally I have 100% confidence in Sam & Dean. Chuck, you are going to lose this bet.  And of course the side benefit, is now that Dean has laid that challenge out there, Chuck won't just dust the planet or Sam & Dean.  THIS has Chuck's creative juices flowing.  This is why he loves this Sam and Dean the most.

*PHYSICALLY he had no problem manipulating Eileen.  But it was against her will.  That was obvious.  And it was clunky.  Eileen is proof IMO that Sam and Dean are not marionettes, Chuck nudges and plays the odds. But to outright subvert a human will (like he did with Eileen) is clunky. Unnatural.  He might as well be playing with dolls. 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: This WAS a pivotal episode.  TFW has their mojo back even if they just suffered a bit of a defeat.  The gauntlet is laid.  And Chuck won't back away from this challenge by cheating.  He's apparently a gambler who loves to win.  But Free Will IS still in place.  And like most villains, he's underestimated his opponents.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by SueB

[Bergamot]

On 1/16/2020 at 10:28 PM, KayCordingly said:

I feel like Chuck making Sam lose hope was a metaphor for the writers making the fans lose hope.

LOL! I love this! But as Chuck said, go easy on us -- it took a lot to beat it out of us!

 

On 1/16/2020 at 10:28 PM, KayCordingly said:

- Wow, what an exciting scene Cas described to Dean about his daring escape. Too bad the writers don't know about "show don't tell".

The writing for the episode was really bad, but especially for the parts that were supposedly about Dean and Castiel's Thrilling New Adventures in Purgatory. Castiel summing up for Dean how he managed to escape from Eve and the Leviathans in as few words as possible, just so the two of them could get back to talking about their feelings, was unintentionally hilarious.

 

On 1/16/2020 at 10:28 PM, KayCordingly said:

- Hey, as long as we have an entire two minutes before the portal closes, and it's who-knows how far away, let's stop everything and have a heart-to-heart.

That's the way I felt about Dean's prayer scene. So his brother is in grave danger, he is surrounded by the monsters of Purgatory, and he has only minutes to escape back through the rift -- and Dean just pauses for a while to sink to his knees and choke out a long, tearful apology to Castiel? Seriously? Not the Dean Winchester I know. It's like they were going to Purgatory but ended up instead in Bizarro World.

 

[Myrelle]

Most of the episode was fanservice for the Limp Sam and Destiel crowds, IMO.

Dean getting to face down Chuck was the best thing about it from this Dean fan's POV, but even that was spun as Dean being pissed because Baby Bro was oh-so-hurt-so a little for the Bronly crowd there.

Oh, and if Dean fans wanted to see it as something for just Dean?-well, two birds with one stone there; and not the least bit surprising from the laziest hacks to ever pick up a pen and try to call themselves writers.

The writing continues to suck and now they're bringing the NougatBaby back.

Oh joy. 🤢

[Aeryn13]

Chuck's future was bs. Because what would the brothers do if they themselves became monsters and a danger to their surviving friends and people in general? A) take themselves out or B) attack/kill their friends?

Sam didn't even question that. Nor the fact that as he himself stated earlier in the Season Chuck has a habit of leaving all his little draft Earths to their own devices. And gosh golly, they don"t suddenly have monster apocalypses.

That was some yarn there and it only got spun as gold so Sam wouldn't look bad for quickly giving up and giving in after seeing it. It was a teflon device to have Dean validate it at the end. If it had been the other way around, it would have been bad and wrong. 

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, NougatJack said:

But does anybody know why Dean didn‘t smash that orb thing in front of Chuck himself, but throws it to Sam instead?

Actually, Castiel was the one who threw it to Sam. As for why Castiel -- the only person who could NOT use it -- was the one who was carrying it, rather than Dean, who could use it, who knows? Maybe it's because Berens was sucking up to a certain group of fans who like seeing Castiel as being all dominant and in charge, and Dean as being weak and ineffectual, so Castiel apparently could not even trust Dean to handle the orb on his own. Or maybe it's because Castiel is actually the stupid one.

[SueB]

22 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Actually, Castiel was the one who threw it to Sam. As for why Castiel -- the only person who could NOT use it -- was the one who was carrying it, rather than Dean, who could use it, who knows? Maybe it's because Berens was sucking up to a certain group of fans who like seeing Castiel as being all dominant and in charge, and Dean as being weak and ineffectual, so Castiel apparently could not even trust Dean to handle the orb on his own. Or maybe it's because Castiel is actually the stupid one.

Or maybe Dean's job was to free Sam (which was always going to be a Dean thing) and Cas was to toss the orb to whoever had the best shot in what was anticipated to be a melee?

Or not?

[Myrelle]

27 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Actually, Castiel was the one who threw it to Sam. As for why Castiel -- the only person who could NOT use it -- was the one who was carrying it, rather than Dean, who could use it, who knows? Maybe it's because Berens was sucking up to a certain group of fans who like seeing Castiel as being all dominant and in charge, and Dean as being weak and ineffectual, so Castiel apparently could not even trust Dean to handle the orb on his own. Or maybe it's because Castiel is actually the stupid one.

😆 👍 😘

Edited January 18, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

[Bergamot]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Chuck's future was bs. Because what would the brothers do if they themselves became monsters and a danger to their surviving friends and people in general? A) take themselves out or B) attack/kill their friends?

Sam didn't even question that. Nor the fact that as he himself stated earlier in the Season Chuck has a habit of leaving all his little draft Earths to their own devices. And gosh golly, they don"t suddenly have monster apocalypses.

That was some yarn there and it only got spun as gold so Sam wouldn't look bad for quickly giving up and giving in after seeing it. It was a teflon device to have Dean validate it at the end. If it had been the other way around, it would have been bad and wrong. 

Yes, I agree about Chuck's future being bs.  Also, this makes no sense to me -- if Chuck is God and the one who supposedly creates what happens, why was he suddenly insisting that this particular future was "the TRUTH!" which cannot be altered once you start down that path, and not just something he would choose to write? (Is there an even more omniscient and omnipotent God who is in charge of the REAL future?) Why would this be the only particular future that would be set in stone? And if it could be altered, then why would hearing about it be a reason to give up hope, any more than seeing any of the other futures would be?

And boy, are you right about what would have happened if it were the other way around, and Dean was the one who gave up hope and so refused to smash the orb. We would never have heard the end of it from Sam and Castiel -- there would have been none of this, "Well, if you believe that, it's good enough for me!"

[Cambion]

Ugh, a few thoughts that aren't fully formed into eloquent words.

 

1) Since Jack was conceived, the real slash romance has been Jackstiel.

2)  I'm so sick of Mary Sues, I threw up in my mouth a little bit at the last scene.  I thought Nickifer was the apogee of my hate for stupid Mary Sue characters, but I was wrong.  Oh, so very wrong.  His son is doing him several magnitudes better.

3)  Sam is remarkably blase about Mary's death for someone who wanted his mom so bad for all those years and was so close to her when he finally did get her.  And I really thought he would see through the lies Chuck was showing him.  I get that both the boys are worn down and tired of always having to save the world, but Chuck has done nothing but lie to them since revealing himself as God.  And angels turned out to be dicks and have really fucked with them alot too. Please Sam, it's time to be realistic.  Hope for the best, but expect the worst, cause really dude, hasn't that been your whole life?

4) For a severely abused person with a temper and multiple weapons, Dean has shown remarkable restraint.  The only reason some of my family and close friend abusers aren't dead is that I don't currently own a firearm and am actually taking the meds the psychiatrist prescribed.   I sooooo get Dean.  It's almost like watching my own emotions played out on screen.  Dean's whole apology was a great big fat cry of "I hate what you do to me but I'm so conditioned to the abuse and afraid to be by myself that I'll give you want you want because if I'm alone with my anger I'll eat myself alive from the inside out.  God knows I can't kill myself.  Someone might actually need me and give me a crumb of the love that I deserve because I'm a fucking human being who needs love as much as everyone.  But you've conditioned me since I was a tiny kid to be a doormat and God help me I can't stop that no matter how hard I try.  Because you taught me this is all I deserve, all I'm allowed, and I need some tiny bit of acknowledgement, so much, that I will endure any hurt just to get that crumb."  

5) I so loved Dean standing up to Chuck.  Maybe there is hope for him to sluff off the abuse.  Of course, we won't see it, but in my head he will give everyone the big ol' finger, drive off in Baby and find someone who really appreciates him.  And I need Chuck to look like a nebbishy little guy because for me that is the whole schtick of the God of Abraham.  Reference Job, and Abraham and Isaac and torturing his own son on a crucifix and a bunch of other truly questionable stuff heaped upon his creations by a "loving god".  (Sorry, I'm a pagan and am the child of a God who doesn't torture for torture's sake and I don't mean to offend, but there it is:  Why I have problems with the Christian God. I mean for fuck's sake, how can you not walk into a Catholic Church and see all the crucifixes and see the holy communion which is literally the transubstantiation of bread and wine into flesh and blood that is then consumed and not think this is about anything except human sacrifice and cannibalism? )  So, okay, yeah, I've not been a huge Chuck fan all along. (Anyway, sorry if I offended anyone, but really:  Ewww.  Just ewwww.)

 

And....I'm spent.  And I apologize in advance for ranting and offending anyone.  Just needed to get some stuff off my chest after reading everything here.

 

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Most of the episode was fanservice

Yes, I agree. 

And in regard to Castiel, as far as I can tell, the show's writers seem to have no desire to write about his journey as a character anymore; their sole motivation when writing him appears to be doing things with him that will satisfy his online fans. An occasional instance of fanservice, as some one-off thing, is not necessarily the ruination of a character, but not if fanservice is all there is that is left of the character.

As far as I can tell, there was no point whatsoever to the conflict between Dean and Castiel this time -- except to fulfill the fanfiction trope of having woobie Castiel be treated unfairly after making a mistake, so that Dean can later tearfully apologize. During those scenes in Purgatory, I could hardly pay attention to what was being said, due to the big neon sign flashing "FANSERVICE" which kept appearing on my screen.

At least all the drama between them seems to be over. (And with Jack returning, Castiel's entire attention is going to be on his nougat baby, and he is not going to care either way about Dean. If so, this episode could be the last one to focus on Dean and Castiel's relationship -- and how sad is that, to think of this as the final word on that subject?) Anyway, personally I would like to just forget it even happened, especially considering how pointless it all turned out to be.

[ahrtee]

I don't understand everyone just nodding and agreeing that Dean has an anger management issue as if it's a well-known fact.  He has a temper, of course, but he's always--aside from the time he was under the influence of the MoC--been almost scarily self-controlled.  You can't be a good fighter if you're out of control, and Dean is a well-trained and a very good fighter.   We've seen him throw a punch or two at Sam or a dick angel when he's very angry (or, more often, frustrated) but that's it.  *One* punch.  (Well, aside from him beating up Soulless Sam...)  But if you count the number of times others have beat him to a pulp (or even yelled at him in fury)--specifically Sam and Cas--I'd say they were the ones with anger issues.  Sam even admitted it in Sam Interrupted.  But somehow Dean's anger is out of control?

Feeling angry isn't necessarily a problem.  How you deal with it can be--and Dean has almost always handled his anger without any harm to innocents.  You can't say the same about anyone else on the show.

 

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I don't understand everyone just nodding and agreeing that Dean has an anger management issue as if it's a well-known fact.  He has a temper, of course, but he's always--aside from the time he was under the influence of the MoC--been almost scarily self-controlled.  You can't be a good fighter if you're out of control, and Dean is a well-trained and a very good fighter.   We've seen him throw a punch or two at Sam or a dick angel when he's very angry (or, more often, frustrated) but that's it.  *One* punch.  (Well, aside from him beating up Soulless Sam...)  But if you count the number of times others have beat him to a pulp (or even yelled at him in fury)--specifically Sam and Cas--I'd say they were the ones with anger issues.  Sam even admitted it in Sam Interrupted.  But somehow Dean's anger is out of control?

Feeling angry isn't necessarily a problem.  How you deal with it can be--and Dean has almost always handled his anger without any harm to innocents.  You can't say the same about anyone else on the show.

 

But he might yell and hurt the others' fee-fees. I think that is supposed to be the "crime" adressed here. Cas' fee-fees.

[7kstar]

18 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

I've no idea how you people have the energy or motivation to argue about Dean and Castiel's umpteenth feud.

These things feel so awkward and contrived every single time. Their relationship hasn't evolved in like half a decade because the writers aren't interested in anything except temporarily stirring shit for cheap drama to try to make up for the absence of actual character arcs.

It always goes the same way : A lame character death, endless bickering, and one of them suddenly groveling because it's time to move the plot along. This time it fell on Dean.

Really I don't.  It is Stupid and meaningless.  Also degrading and not healthy.  Poor drama and not worth much.  To be honest I've got too much on my plate right now.  So this isn't even on the raider.  It's poor story telling and I just got mad watching it. 

If the show continues this way I won't watch but maybe the last ep...maybe.  Sad as this use to be my favorite but I have too much to deal with in real life that I don't need this for a show that is suppose to give me enjoyment. 

[Harleycat]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I don't understand everyone just nodding and agreeing that Dean has an anger management issue as if it's a well-known fact.  He has a temper, of course, but he's always--aside from the time he was under the influence of the MoC--been almost scarily self-controlled.  You can't be a good fighter if you're out of control, and Dean is a well-trained and a very good fighter.   We've seen him throw a punch or two at Sam or a dick angel when he's very angry (or, more often, frustrated) but that's it.  *One* punch.  (Well, aside from him beating up Soulless Sam...)  But if you count the number of times others have beat him to a pulp (or even yelled at him in fury)--specifically Sam and Cas--I'd say they were the ones with anger issues.  Sam even admitted it in Sam Interrupted.  But somehow Dean's anger is out of control?

Feeling angry isn't necessarily a problem.  How you deal with it can be--and Dean has almost always handled his anger without any harm to innocents.  You can't say the same about anyone else on the show.

 

I think Dean is just tired of being angry at Sam and Cas. He has never quite gotten that it's not his fault that they are dumb dumbs. Maybe he should consider making some new friends. I agree, he is always in control, it's just that the show wants to make it seem like Sam and Cas's lack of emotion are what is normal, so Dean having passion or emotions or feelings about anything ever is him being out of control.

[SueB]

@ahrtee I don’t think Dean has an anger management issue.  I think he holds a grudge sometimes but I don’t think his anger is generally out of control (Mark of Cain not included).  I do think this time he was so hurt and angry about everything (Mary’s death, even Jack’s death, finding out Chuck was evil, etc..) that he shut down a bit.  I don’t think it’s an anger management issue, I think that’s how he coped for a while.  But Cas IS his best friend.  And while Dean’s anger was justified, I also believe Dean when he says ‘of COURSE I forgive you’.  They have a long history of massive support, big mistakes, and massive shared trauma.  If Dean feels he should have at least stopped Cas, or regrets making Cas feel useless and unwanted, I don’t think that’s out of character for their relationship.  I also think Dean acknowledgement of not being able to control his anger at that moment is not a bad thing.  He’s talking about feeling out of control and wishing he didn’t feel that way.  Seems normal to me.  Seems healthy to acknowledge that we aren’t always able to act and feel like we wish.  

But I don’t think he has an anger management issue.  I think he was in emotional crisis and had a hard time getting back to functional.  Most would be a drooling mess in a corner.  He’s remarkably functional for all he’s experienced.  Dean doesn’t see it that way but I think it’s true. 

[FlickChick]

I just had a thought. I wonder if Dean and Cas didn't make it back to the rift in time and were stuck in Purgatory, if Sam and Eileen would have settled down in the bunker and adopted a dog. 😉

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But he might yell and hurt the others' fee-fees. I think that is supposed to be the "crime" adressed here. Cas' fee-fees.

The problem is not that Dean was angry and didn't apologize or let go until Purgatory when he almost lost Cas. The problem is that Cas really messed up and many more could have died as a result of Cas withholding information to protect Jack.

7 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

A complete waste of an hour that I will never get back.  Okay, 45 minutes because I Dvr'd it.

Still, my gosh this episode was an absolute snoozefest.

So, now they don't want to kill Chuck after wasting all of this time trying to find a way to kill Chuck.  Awesome. 🙄

They should have ended this series last season.  It seems like the writers are just trying to run out the episode clock because they have run out of ideas.

 

They were trying to lock him up per Amara eons ago.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Rob Benedict did a great job.  I watched again and he's so very good at shifting emotions from moment to moment - within the same sentence practically.  I'm left with a LOT of questions, but they feel more like clues than unanswered plots bits. So, he's my list of clues from this episode. TL;DR, read the bold. 

• WHY couldn't he personally dig out Sam's wound?  At first he thought physically removing something in Sam would do the trick.  Was it as simple as not getting his hands dirty?  Is it literally against his own nature? He had no problem using Eileen*. So I'm not sure it's squeamishness.  He wasn't afraid of the pain causing a boomerang back to him? Or was THAT it -- if Eileen hurt Sam, no boomerang? I'm going with that one. Because in the past, when Chuck showed pain it was when either he or Sam were touching the wound. Not when someone else did.  But it's also interesting that he knew it was something inside Sam KEEPING the tether.  
• The Casino is a metaphor. Chuck likes to gamble and win.  So he nudged Eileen in the direction of Sam, he left HALF a spell.  He gambled that Sam would figure it out and was delighted he did.  Not because he now got 'video with no audio' but because he bet on Sam acting in a certain way and he did.  Which is why Dean pisses off Chuck more than Sam, BTW. Because Dean's instinct will overcome his emotion & logic. He swerves in ways Chuck doesn't foresee more often. 
• "How are you still LIKE this?!" A moment of real Chuck, no pretense.  So Chuck realizes it's hope.  But his omniscient self had to figure it out because he couldn't "watch" his favorite show with the wound.  Once he figured it out, Chuck was delighted.  Again. I think both because he figured it out (he does NOT like not knowing) and because he could work with that. But it's insight, IMO. He likes to gamble but doesn't like to lose.
• Chuck gambled that Sam wanted to see the future. And won. I contend that WAS the future if you 'play the odds'. There IS some cosmic connection (hey, let's ask Death?  She would know) between Chuck's "light" and the balance with the monsters.  But to quote Yoda "always in motion is the future".  I think Chuck can look at any one moment and see the forward most-probable projection.  "This is the truth Sam, this is what comes next" was played like a HALF truth.  It didn't have the same lack of varnish that his anger at Sam did.  He LOOKS at Sam as he claims it's true.  I think he's holding something back. His objective is to put Sam into despair. So he can forceful state it's the future and it's not a direct lie. But it's a lie of omission. Because that future DOES shift.  Chuck showed the high probability future if the Trap was sprung.  And it's bad. But the ENTIRE time he's talking in the 'future vision' he's playing Sam just a bit.  NOW that the Trap is destroyed, there's a different future. But it was ENOUGH truth and Sam could see that. "Without me, it's a law of nature, dark forces prevail, monsters rule, and you, your brother and everyone you love will die." THAT line was spoken with conviction.  I didn't see any pretense or half-truth there.  And Chuck was also telling the truth that he thought it was a crappy ending.  He's spent many years with these 'characters', this is not what he wanted for them. 
• Why did Chuck let Cas and Dean bring the Trap to the Casino?  He JUST showed the future to Sam.  He knew there was a serious risk that they could trap Chuck.  And yet Chuck is not panicked.  In fact, I think he's REALLY enjoying this.  Because he has total faith in Sam.  He knows Sam won't let the future come to pass that he showed him.  But he still needed Sam to hit despair.  To release him from the wound.  So again, Chuck gambled that Sam would do the right thing and not Trap Chuck.  He also gambled, and won, that this would be a moment of despair for Sam.  And thus was freed.  And, IMO, once Chuck realized how to solve the problem (take away hope) and show the future, he was supremely confident in the outcome.  It was dramatic and elegant.  THIS is how Chuck has fun. I LOVED, BTW, how Sam looks so skeeved out when Chuck pats him on the knee as he talks about their 'friendship'.  You go Sam! 
• Sam's visions weren't drafts, they were memories.  That was played as 'truth'.  No need for Chuck to lie about it.  So far, all those timelines must have come to their 'conclusion' before THIS timeline. Which means this Sam and Dean have lasted longer than most.  Go TFW!
•  Chuck LOVES taking the bet that Dean laid before him. That "Not this Sam and not this Dean . So you go back to Earth 2 or and play with your other toys. Because we will never give you the ending that you want."  Game on.  Personally I have 100% confidence in Sam & Dean. Chuck, you are going to lose this bet.  And of course the side benefit, is now that Dean has laid that challenge out there, Chuck won't just dust the planet or Sam & Dean.  THIS has Chuck's creative juices flowing.  This is why he loves this Sam and Dean the most.

*PHYSICALLY he had no problem manipulating Eileen.  But it was against her will.  That was obvious.  And it was clunky.  Eileen is proof IMO that Sam and Dean are not marionettes, Chuck nudges and plays the odds. But to outright subvert a human will (like he did with Eileen) is clunky. Unnatural.  He might as well be playing with dolls. 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: This WAS a pivotal episode.  TFW has their mojo back even if they just suffered a bit of a defeat.  The gauntlet is laid.  And Chuck won't back away from this challenge by cheating.  He's apparently a gambler who loves to win.  But Free Will IS still in place.  And like most villains, he's underestimated his opponents.

 

The metaphor was gambling and the casino. He played Sam. Chuck bluffed and Sam went for it. Cas and Dean came in with the equivalent of a Royal Flush and Sam blew  their hand because he let Chuck mess with their head. Chuck was not omnipotent at that time. Hr did not know the future. He was messing with Sam and bluffing.

I think Dean's delivery of his line at the end... he knows chuck bluffed but he is not going to rub Sam's nose in it.

Dean is the wild card. He has always been the wild card. I have outline the ways in an earliesr on this thread. Dean refused to play the Apocalypse game; he refused to fight his brother. He changed Chuck's story twice in s 5 for Sam. He probably changed in in s 11 by talking Amara down. MORIAH.This is why Chuck pervs on Dean. This Dean is unique. I thought this would come into play this season. It had to. It's the only advantage that they have now....

Well... eyeroll... and just jack.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, Bergamot said:

LOL! I love this! But as Chuck said, go easy on us -- it took a lot to beat it out of us!

 

The writing for the episode was really bad, but especially for the parts that were supposedly about Dean and Castiel's Thrilling New Adventures in Purgatory. Castiel summing up for Dean how he managed to escape from Eve and the Leviathans in as few words as possible, just so the two of them could get back to talking about their feelings, was unintentionally hilarious.

 

That's the way I felt about Dean's prayer scene. So his brother is in grave danger, he is surrounded by the monsters of Purgatory, and he has only minutes to escape back through the rift -- and Dean just pauses for a while to sink to his knees and choke out a long, tearful apology to Castiel? Seriously? Not the Dean Winchester I know. It's like they were going to Purgatory but ended up instead in Bizarro World.

 

Dean owned Purgatory when he was there, killed both Dick and Eve and his best bro was Benny  Despite killing the Mother of All Mosters and the King of the Leviathan he ends up asleep on the ground which about sums up the writing for Dean. Benny is written off in a clause. F@#!

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, I agree about Chuck's future being bs.  Also, this makes no sense to me -- if Chuck is God and the one who supposedly creates what happens, why was he suddenly insisting that this particular future was "the TRUTH!" which cannot be altered once you start down that path, and not just something he would choose to write? (Is there an even more omniscient and omnipotent God who is in charge of the REAL future?) Why would this be the only particular future that would be set in stone? And if it could be altered, then why would hearing about it be a reason to give up hope, any more than seeing any of the other futures would be?

And boy, are you right about what would have happened if it were the other way around, and Dean was the one who gave up hope and so refused to smash the orb. We would never have heard the end of it from Sam and Castiel -- there would have been none of this, "Well, if you believe that, it's good enough for me!"

How is Chuck being gone away somewhere not answering anyone's prayers for millenials any different from Chuck being locked up not answering anyone's prayers. It's not. He is still around keeping the balance.

It was BS.

It's obvious because of where the episode was set. It's called bluffing. Sam was played. 

Even if they were bitten. They have the cure. Dean has been a vampire, not fed and used it.  He took down a nest as a newly turned, starving vamp.

 

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/17/2020 at 11:07 AM, Bali said:

Thank you! This bothered me also. I just forgot about it in my other :this doesn't make sense" rant. Sam's being tortured, and Chuck is just playing the guitar. Laid back and relaxed. Complete opposite of the new water pistol that was shoved down our throats in previous episodes. And chuck is powerless because Sam has hope? Huh? Did I get that right? Run that by me again? Human hope makes God powerless? I don't understand that- at all. 

This is a super soaker episode. No mere water pistol will do if you ask me.

I agree that it made about as much sense as anything to do with souls on this show.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 11:14 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

And Chuck exposited (is too a word) this to Sam as well, in true comic book villain style. Thing is, he tried to dash that hope by mocking Sam's belief that Dean and Cas would come running to the rescue with a plan to defeat him, and how that wasn't gonna happen. And then it did happen, and Sam still gave up hope and acquiesced to Chuck's future info-dump. Oy.

And then Dean made Sam feel good for being a big dum dum because he's a good big brother.

On 1/17/2020 at 11:18 AM, Nerys said:

No, because she didn't create them.

Eve created them and Eve is locked away and Dead by Dean.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:15 PM, SueB said:

Cas apologized IMMEDIATELY.  

From 14.18

He wasn’t allowed to apologize in 14.18, nor 15.01:

Dean admitted he was too angry to forgive.  

But to retcon that Cas didn't apologize makes no sense to me.  Unless you honestly believe "I failed you" is inadequate to "I'm sorry".  

Taking to BvJ.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/17/2020 at 4:22 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Well, the episode was not in any way, shape or form subtle.

Step A - exposition on how you need God to keep the "darkness", in this case, dark forces of nature aka monsters, at bay

Step B - onscreen ask the question that since they can neither kill nor trap/seal away Chuck, however are they going to win?

Step C - immediately after this question cut to the Nougat Baby for the first time this Season and Death remarking on his grand new mission

IMO it would have literally been impossible for the episode to be more on the nose about it.

I have been ignoring the end however (eyeroll) Chuck did seem afraid of just Jack. Is he going to eat Chuck.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/17/2020 at 9:50 AM, Pondlass1 said:

Purgatory has blue skies and green grass now and apparently almost empty of vampires and leviathans.  If Benny is dead where is he now?
With no disrespect to the wonderful  Rob Benedict, why wouldn’t God pick a taller, handsomer vessel?   Dean towering over him was quite amusing.

 

 

Yes... I noticed that the grass was greener in Purgatory.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/17/2020 at 9:15 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Too bad it was only in a possible future.

I believe the implication was that if they trapped/disabled Chuck, then the balance would be upset and the monsters would win. That would make sense if the opposite were true when Amara was caged, but it wasn't. So we'll just have to chalk it up to 'new canon' and move on. At least until next week when it can and will be new canon all over again.

I think Chuck was bluffing. They were in a casino after all. Chuck was playing his hand and Sam fell for it. That's my take. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/16/2020 at 10:41 PM, ILoveReading said:

But if he's trapped he's still alive he just can't write or change anything.  His creation and his rules are left in the status quo.

If there has to be symmetry and the light being trapped means darkness runs amuck, than shouldn't the opposite be true if darkness is trapped.  That light would run amuck.  That certainly didn't happen.

Sam should have at least questioned it before giving up.

The Darkness as an evil concept was misogynist propaganda. All she is doing now that Chuck apologized for locking her up for eons is playing cards and getting messages. They appear to be Yin-Yang concepts. She has been more powerful than him. She probably can do whatever he can... She resurrected Mary easily. Apparently Jack can replace him because of NUcanon/super soaker water pistols.

Chuck was lying/bluffing/playing Sam.

[Wynne88]

Where did Michael go after he opened the rift?  Did I miss that?

[SueB]

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

Where did Michael go after he opened the rift?  Did I miss that?

Went looking for a day job to pay for food. He's (thus far) peaced-out on the issue because he's so pissed.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Where did Michael go after he opened the rift?  Did I miss that?

He left to hang out with Kevin, Eileen, Amara and all the other characters who just shrugged and left.  I can picture them all in some giant green room somewhere just waiting for their turn to be called in to fix some plot device.  

[foxfreakinmulder]

This episode was a whole bag of nothing.

The best part for me was Dean towering over God Almighty fucking Chuck.

Out of the Billion of people on earth these are the 2 God wants to play with, give me a fucking break.

I liked Cas when he first appeared on the show but that wore off after he became a weak version of himself and so did the angle/demon storylines. I wanted to watch the story of 2 brothers hunting things saving people not this shit storm with God.

If I was God and had the choice of any meat suit I would've picked someone that looked like Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans or Jason Momoa, just saying.

These writers need to go work at cartoon network.

 

[7kstar]

1 hour ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

These writers need to go work at cartoon network.

You have no idea how much I needed that laugh!

 

[Commando Cody]

I felt like I was watching a soap opera.  

 

[Bessie]

34 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I felt like I was watching a soap opera.  

 

You were.

My personal favorite was when they went back and forth over who left who and who didn’t stop who etc. . Pure soap. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Bessie

[tennisgurl]

Jensen is so freaking good, he can sell even the most ridiculous of plot developments. He might get tired though, carrying this whole show on his back. I could watch him emote and punch out Chuck all day long. 

[Bali]

On 1/17/2020 at 4:03 PM, PAForrest said:

Benny deserved a whole lot better than an off screen death. Waaaaaaaaah!!!!! I knew Ty wasn't going to be available for this episode, but Berens did him wrong regardless. Boo.

The one personal note of squee I got out of Chuckles' time trip was the fact that this particular Dean and Sam storyline ended on my birthday. LOL! Rob, of course, is playing this thankless role to the hilt, and I applaud his ability to make Chuckles watchable from appearance to appearance despite the character trashing.

When Sam kissed Eileen at the end, it was literally the first time I detected a spark of chemistry between them. Is she supposed to come back?

Of course, now that Jackie Poo Sue is returning, I guess the brothers can just go to Tijuana or some place to hang. Obviously they won't really be needed anymore.

And I totally think the Js simply could not take the whole brothers as werewolves thing seriously at all. You can't blame them.

ok- First of all, I don't know why anyone thinks that Benny got an offscreen death. I don't trust bad CGI pointy mouth leviathans. So therefore, since I'm unlikely to ever know the truth, the Levi lied, and Benny was just hunting in a different part of Purgatory.

Don't get excited about things happening on your birthday. The world lost Don Knotts and Harold Ramis on mine. That isn't a happy thought. RIP

The brothers on a beach? I could see Dean with a surf board. 

The brothers as monsters was too over the top stupid. For all of the reasons already listed. And I'm still mad at Stupid Sam for believing it all. Sam didn't used to be so stupid. 

On 1/18/2020 at 11:05 AM, NougatJack said:

But does anybody know why Dean didn‘t smash that orb thing in front of Chuck himself, but throws it to Sam instead?

Because the Brothers Winchester aren't really very smart anymore? It was in the script and UpChuck is a bad writer who lies? I honestly can't answer this one.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Bali said:

Because the Brothers Winchester aren't really very smart anymore? It was in the script and UpChuck is a bad writer who lies? I honestly can't answer this one.

Dean didn't have or throw the orb. Castiel did.

[Bali]

On 1/18/2020 at 3:12 PM, Bergamot said:

Actually, Castiel was the one who threw it to Sam. As for why Castiel -- the only person who could NOT use it -- was the one who was carrying it, rather than Dean, who could use it, who knows? Maybe it's because Berens was sucking up to a certain group of fans who like seeing Castiel as being all dominant and in charge, and Dean as being weak and ineffectual, so Castiel apparently could not even trust Dean to handle the orb on his own. Or maybe it's because Castiel is actually the stupid one.

OH WAIT! I figured this one out. Cas was carrying it because there are still 11 episodes left in this insufferable season, and we can't have Mighty Jack take over for UpChuck too quickly or the writers might just have to actually come up with a worthy idea to fill the rest of the season.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 6:09 PM, FlickChick said:

I just had a thought. I wonder if Dean and Cas didn't make it back to the rift in time and were stuck in Purgatory, if Sam and Eileen would have settled down in the bunker and adopted a dog. 😉

Only if one of them hit it with a car first.

[NougatJack]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean didn't have or throw the orb. Castiel did.

Right, Dean should have been carrying the orb and smash it. But than the main villian would have been defeated too soon. The script made TFW idiots once again.

BTW, I wonder what Billy and Jack will do in the future according to Chuck. As long as Chuck is trapped, it should be safe for Jack to come back to help the Winchesters defeating the monsters. Is it so nice in the empty that he would rather stay there? 🤔

 

[gonzosgirrl]

38 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Right, Dean should have been carrying the orb and smash it. But than the main villian would have been defeated too soon. The script made TFW idiots once again.

Sorry, I thought it was you who asked this question in the first place.

If Dean'd had the orb, Sam still would have monologued why they shouldn't complete the spell and implored Dean not to do it, and Dean would've given it up anyway. At least this way it isn't one more thing heaped on Dean's shoulders.

[mertensia]

Am I the only one wondering if Cas was really Cas and not a Leviathan? Just me? 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, mertensia said:

Am I the only one wondering if Cas was really Cas and not a Leviathan? Just me? 

Now that would be a twist. 🙂 It would explain why we got the exposition about Cas's noble battle to freedom instead of actual footage. If there were more episodes left and we didn't know Super!Jack was on his way back (rendering all less-than-God-like monsters irrelevant), and if Dabb were more clever than he is, I could see this happening.

[Commando Cody]

9 hours ago, mertensia said:

Am I the only one wondering if Cas was really Cas and not a Leviathan? Just me? 

It seems a little late in the game for that.  However, I was watching for clues after Dean found him, and I think they showed enough to prove that he was the real Cas. At least I thought it was enough.  It seems like he would have eaten Dean as soon as he got close enough.  

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

It seems a little late in the game for that.  However, I was watching for clues after Dean found him, and I think they showed enough to prove that he was the real Cas. At least I thought it was enough.  It seems like he would have eaten Dean as soon as he got close enough.  

Hmmm...would the rift let anyone/anything through?  (The original portal was only for humans).  So does that mean that other Purgatory residents got through in the 12 hours the rift was open and no one was watching?  

[Katy M]

On 1/21/2020 at 2:09 PM, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...would the rift let anyone/anything through?  (The original portal was only for humans).  So does that mean that other Purgatory residents got through in the 12 hours the rift was open and no one was watching?  

Are you talking about two different things.

The portal that Benny and Dean went through was just for humans.  Michael created a special rift, and he didn't mention anything about humans only.

I do have a theory, though.  Because they keep creating these rifts in the bunker and that seemed reckless to me at first. But, then I realized that sometimes the bunker is warded against evil.  And it might be effective through all openings, including a rift.  Although that warding doesn't work against angels which should have been a concern 2 seasons ago, but whatever.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/21/2020 at 2:09 PM, ahrtee said:

Hmmm...would the rift let anyone/anything through?  (The original portal was only for humans).  So does that mean that other Purgatory residents got through in the 12 hours the rift was open and no one was watching?  

No because they do not have corporeal forms.

[Castiels Cat]

On 1/21/2020 at 8:40 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

Now that would be a twist. 🙂 It would explain why we got the exposition about Cas's noble battle to freedom instead of actual footage. If there were more episodes left and we didn't know Super!Jack was on his way back (rendering all less-than-God-like monsters irrelevant), and if Dabb were more clever than he is, I could see this happening.

Everyone in Purgatory is dead and doesn't have a body. Only Cas and Dean have corporeal form. Eve was only able to inhabit a VIRGIN body after a ritual performed by others. Of course with these writers anything is possible...

[ahrtee]

34 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Everyone in Purgatory is dead and doesn't have a body. Only Cas and Dean have corporeal form. Eve was only able to inhabit a VIRGIN body after a ritual performed by others. Of course with these writers anything is possible...

Well, except Dr. Visyak who came through when Lovecraft and his group opened a rift, and took over the maid's body.  And the Leviathan who came through when Cas opened the portal and then escaped and occupied various bodies.  

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Well, except Dr. Visyak who came through when Lovecraft and his group opened a rift, and took over the maid's body.  And the Leviathan who came through when Cas opened the portal and then escaped and occupied various bodies.  

Those also involved a spell ritual to pull the souls through. They didn't just wander through an open rift as a disembodied soul.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[FierceCritter]

On 1/17/2020 at 10:31 PM, Harleycat said:

What ever happened to Cas being an angel of few words? Old Cas would never have demanded an apology. He wouldn't have even mentioned that his feeling were hurt. It just wouldn't have been a thing. He has bigger things to worry about then Dean being mad at him.

THIS.

I said it before. I hoped they'd make Castiel a badass again like he was initially.

I hate the way he's been written. And it just gets worse and worse.

[ahrtee]

22 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Those also involved a spell ritual to pull the souls through. They didn't just wander through an open rift as a disembodied soul.

Actually, Dr. Visyak did, and implied others could:

ELEANOR: I didn't ask those idiots to crack the door. I just happened to be the thing that fell through. And let me tell you something, you are lucky it was me.

BOBBY: You're saying you're on our side?

ELEANOR: I'm on my side. I happen to like it here. I don't want to see this place turned into some bloody wasteland.

BOBBY: So you killed H.P. Lovecraft?

ELEANOR: Please. That guy couldn't even write "hello". (She stands up.) Look, I have spent 75 years trying to keep Purgatory closed. Why do you think I gave Dean the sword?