S02.E10: Clean

[nodorothyparker]

Airdate 2019.12.11

Quote

The opposite of Joy.

[Wicked]

I was disappointed in this season, it was all just too disconnected, like two separate stories being told at the same time. 

[HollyG]

I must have nodded off some during this season. I completely missed that Pop was Ace or that Anne was the younger version of the Kathy Bates Misery character.

Did they explain what the Angel really was? I may need to watch this season again. 

[Peppermint Patty]

I'm probably in the minority, but I loved it. I wanted to know more about what happened in Castle Rock after the statue blew up. What happened to Chance, Nadia, and Abdi? Maybe Season 3 will touch on that. Should we assume that Ace/Augustin is dead?

There is some back and forth on Reddit over whether or not Joy was still under the influence of Amity. Maybe she wasn't turned, but hearing the schisma left a lasting impression. 

The "twist" at the end was a predictable, but necessary, I think. 

[tomsmom]

The biggest shocker to me was the “Missing” poster of Henry Deaver in the gas station! Now I’m dying for season 3!

22 minutes ago, HollyG said:

I must have nodded off some during this season. I completely missed that Pop was Ace or that Anne was the younger version of the Kathy Bates Misery character.

Did they explain what the Angel really was? I may need to watch this season again. 

Pop was not Ace. Ace was his nephew. Annie’s last name is Wilkes. The Angel was the “kid” the warden had locked up in season 1.

[HollyG]

30 minutes ago, tomsmom said:

Pop was not Ace. Ace was his nephew. Annie’s last name is Wilkes. The Angel was the “kid” the warden had locked up in season 1.

Thanks. The timeline is really confusing me. Do you know what year the current season is set in?

[nightmeri]

Season 1 was just meh to me but I thought season 2 was brilliant. Loved it. 

[HollyG]

2 hours ago, tomsmom said:

The biggest shocker to me was the “Missing” poster of Henry Deaver in the gas station! Now I’m dying for season 3!

Pop was not Ace. Ace was his nephew. Annie’s last name is Wilkes. The Angel was the “kid” the warden had locked up in season 1.

I remember the Kid, and that he crossed back over in the forest last season. What I meant was was he really an angel or demon or vampire?.... or maybe that hasn't been made clear yet.

[peridot]

2 hours ago, tomsmom said:

The biggest shocker to me was the “Missing” poster of Henry Deaver in the gas station! Now I’m dying for season 3!

Me too. I had to rewind to look at that.

According to Pop, the Angel can travel between worlds at will.  I wonder why he kept pestering Henry on if he heard the sound.  I hope Henry's son is safe.

Poor Joy.  I thought it was too simple at the end, but glad to see it was just Annie giving in to her delusions fullstop.

[HollyG]

10 minutes ago, peridot said:

Me too. I had to rewind to look at that.

According to Pop, the Angel can travel between worlds at will.  I wonder why he kept pestering Henry on if he heard the sound.  I hope Henry's son is safe.

Poor Joy.  I thought it was too simple at the end, but glad to see it was just Annie giving in to her delusions fullstop.

At first I thought the whole season was Anne's delusion and that maybe she had drowned Joy in the first episode. I will need to rewatch it when I can be more attentive.

[phoenix780]

I fully enjoyed the season. I didn't see it as two disconnected stories, but maybe I'm not being critical enough because I liked the pacing, the writing, and I think the acting was brilliant throughout (especially the girl who played young Annie a couple episodes back). It entertained me so much, I'm probably not going to see flaws. 

Have they announced another season? It's not a show I'd want to see drag on forever, but I'm curious where they go next. 

[TheLotusFlower]

6 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

I'm probably in the minority, but I loved it. I wanted to know more about what happened in Castle Rock after the statue blew up. What happened to Chance, Nadia, and Abdi? Maybe Season 3 will touch on that. Should we assume that Ace/Augustin is dead?

There is some back and forth on Reddit over whether or not Joy was still under the influence of Amity. Maybe she wasn't turned, but hearing the schisma left a lasting impression. 

The "twist" at the end was a predictable, but necessary, I think. 

I loved it as well!  I was disappointed that they didn't show where Nadia, Abdi, and Chance went after the explosion.  I loved seeing the Henry Deavers missing poster at the gas station.  Didn't that picture look like an older version of the Henry we saw in Season 1?  I could've sworn the Henry on the poster had a receding hairline, while Henry in Season 1 wasn't balding at all.  Makes me wonder how much time is supposed to have passed between the two seasons.  They have to give us a Season 3 to tie together some of these loose ends.

[texassunflower]

I really loved this season of Castle Rock and hated to see it end. I hope we get a Season 3. I know the last 5 minutes or more were Annie's hallincuations. Joy was in the water for a long time. Annie drown Joy and hasn't able to revive her. Is this correct? I enjoyed the call back to the movie Misery where Annie is fascinated with the Misery Chastain books. I knew No. 1 fan saying would turn up eventually. Great season ! I look forward to the next installment of Castle Rock. 

[archer1267]

I feel like I need to go back to the beginning (Season 1) and rewatch everything! Not that that's a problem - I loved this season and am sorry to see it end. I for one didn't see the end coming, but knew once I saw the ice cream scooper that there would be Trouble.

I wondered about Joy killing Ace when she seemed so clearly under the spell of the statue. Was there still enough of her real self left that she knew a threat when she saw it?

[Paloma]

2 minutes ago, archer1267 said:

I for one didn't see the end coming, but knew once I saw the ice cream scooper that there would be Trouble.

I wondered about Joy killing Ace when she seemed so clearly under the spell of the statue. Was there still enough of her real self left that she knew a threat when she saw it?

Yep, as soon as I saw the ice cream scooper I started worrying. Poor Joy!

Joy had not yet been murdered and used as a vessel for Amity, so she was still herself though she was under the statue's spell. When the statue was blown up (along with the house) it seemed to break the spell for everyone. I was a bit surprised at how quickly she reacted though.

I had some issues with this season but overall liked it, especially when it focused on family issues, especially the complicated parent-child feelings and interactions. I thought it was moving and realistic that Nadia, despite her justifiable anger at Pop and having told him that she would never think of him again if they survived, was apparently devastated when she realized that he had sacrificed himself. He may have been a bad man in some ways, but they had a loving father-daughter relationship before the revelation that he was the one who killed her mother (which to me seemed like a shooting based on misunderstanding her intentions, as can happen in military actions, rather than murder in cold blood--though obviously to Nadia and Abdi the reason wouldn't matter).

I also liked the interaction between Annie and Joy (or lack of interaction on Joy's part) between their reunion in Castle Rock and Annie killing her. It made sense that Joy would pull away from her after the initial reunion, because most of what happened to Joy was Annie's fault in one way or another. Annie may have loved her, but she tried to kill Joy's real mother; kidnapped Joy and forced the child to live an abnormal life on the run, including dealing with a severely mentally ill mother; and brought her to Castle Rock, which began the chain of events that led to Joy's ordeal with the devil worshippers, not to mention the events that led to Joy's real mother being killed because Joy was trying to keep her from killing Annie. On top of that, Joy was growing up and, even absent the craziness at Castle Rock and Annie's craziness, would have started to become moody and wanting to be independent--as the woman who hired Annie to be a caretaker for the elderly patient said, "Hormones!" As someone who in adolescence sulked and pulled away from my mother (who also had mental health issues but not as severe as Annie) and who then was on the other side of adolescent attitude when my daughter got to that age, I immediately felt that Joy's behavior was in part due to the adolescent need to pull away. Maybe if Annie had not been so paranoid and had been able to understand this natural developmental phase, as well as the other reasons why Joy would resent or avoid her, they could have gotten through it and eventually had a better relationship (with psychiatric treatment for Annie and a lot of therapy for both of them, and assuming that Joy could forgive Annie's crimes--a big assumption).

As I'm writing this, another parent-child parallel occurred to me. Both Joy and Nadia were raised by a parent that killed (or, in the case of Rita, almost killed) the real mother, and in both cases the guilty parent tried to make up for their actions by being the best parent they could be--in Annie's case, making Joy her whole world and reason for living, and being ultraprotective; in Pop's case, giving Nadia love and the best education possible. (I assume he also tried to be a good father to Abdi, but Abdi apparently never trusted him even before he found out the truth of what happened in Somalia.) Both Joy and Nadia returned the parent's devotion until events and revelations tested them, and then both intended to abandon the parent. But as shown by Joy's letter about seeking emancipation and Nadia's grieving reaction to Pop's death, the parent-child bond is not so easily severed even when the parent is toxic.   

[TexasGal]

17 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

I'm probably in the minority, but I loved it. I wanted to know more about what happened in Castle Rock after the statue blew up. What happened to Chance, Nadia, and Abdi? Maybe Season 3 will touch on that. Should we assume that Ace/Augustin is dead?

I also loved this season, and agree that I missed seeing something about what happened in Castle Rock afterwards.  The whole town wakes up, the house explodes - surely something interesting happened there afterwards.

As soon as they showed Joy drawing "the laughing place" I knew it couldn't be real.  I did like how they played out the reveal of it though.

[tennisgurl]

I loved this season, and while I liked last season, I felt like it peetered out in the end, while this season was consistently engaging and high quality. I guessed pretty early that Joy would die or leave and that would be the thing to finally push Annie totally over the edge into Misery territory, but how it happened was still very unsettling. I had three big "chills" moments this episode towards the end. First, when Annie picked up her Misery book for the first time. Second, when they revealed that the seat next to Annie was empty (even though I was waiting for the reveal, Joy was in the water for too long), and the third right after, when she dropped the "I‘m his number one fan" line and giving some intense crazy eyes at Paul Sheldon. 

Poor Joy, I think that she was Joy by the time that Annie killed her, but like with Pops and Chris when they had some control again, Amity was still in her head pushing against her, hence her watching a movie in French and drawing creepy pictures of the angel. 

I so called Pops using that medication stuff to hold onto himself so he could get into the house! As flawed a man he was, Pops really did care about his family, and despite Nadia being furious with him, I dont blame her for being devastated when he blew himself up. The relationship that Pops had with Nadia and Abdi is an interesting foil to Joy and Annie, especially Pops and Nadia. Both of them are parents that have complicated relationships with their kids, it turns out that they both killed their adopted child's actual parent (well, Annie thought she did) and despite being furious with them over their bad acts, their kids just cant totally shut off their feelings for them. 

The creepiest scene was probably when Chase was sneaking through the townspeople who are in a trance, and they all start pointing at her and yelling in unison. I did hope that we would get to see Castle Rock/Salems Lot again to see what happens next, but maybe we will see Nadia, Abdi, and the rest of the town again next season? I still want to know more about Pangborns research and what the deal is with the lake that can apparently be a portal through time/the multiverse! 

Henry Deavers missing poster! What?! There are so many places they could go for season three, like checking in on Jackie Torrence at the Overlook, following up with Henry, going into the time travel pool, I am really excited for season three, and sad to see this ride end for now.

Edited December 12, 2019 by tennisgurl

[peridot]

19 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

What happened to Chance, Nadia, and Abdi? Maybe Season 3 will touch on that. Should we assume that Ace/Augustin is dead?

I thought they showed that he survived the stabbing? I can't remember if the explosion destroyed Amity's coffin or not. If it's still intact, there's another chance for Augustin to bring her back.

Thinking on the episode more, I wonder why Joy left with Annie in the first place. I wouldn't be able to trust her again after learning about her past.  Too bad she couldn't find a way to stay with Chance.

[archer1267]

Quote

Too bad she couldn't find a way to stay with Chance.

Did Chance make it out of the Marsten house before it exploded?

[TexasGal]

9 minutes ago, archer1267 said:

Did Chance make it out of the Marsten house before it exploded?

I think so.  Pop set her free before the bomb went off.

[Paloma]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I guessed pretty early that Joy would die or leave and that would be the thing to finally push Annie totally over the edge into Misery territory, but how it happened was still very unsettling. I had three big "chills" moments this episode towards the end. First, when Annie picked up her Misery book for the first time. Second, when they revealed that the seat next to Annie was empty (even though I was waiting for the reveal, Joy was in the water for too long), and ten third right after, when she dropped the "I‘m his number one fan" line and giving some intense crazy eyes at Paul Sheldon. 

Agree with all this. I was wondering if they would pan up to show James Caan as Paul Sheldon, but then I realized that wouldn't work because the actor is too old now.

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Joy, I think that she was Joy by the time that Annie killed her, but like with Pops and Chris when they had some control again, Amity was still in her head pushing against her, hence her watching a movie in French and drawing creepy pictures of the angel. 

Agree that her watching the movie in French and drawing the angel pictures suggest that Amity was in her head, but I don't see how that happened since previously they had shown that people are not changed/possessed until they are killed. Ace was about to kill her when the explosions took place, but before that I don't think she was Amity--she was just in a trance due to the statue. But maybe there was some other mechanism affecting Joy that could have begun the possession by Amity even before Joy was killed to become Amity's vessel.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Paloma
missing "not" makes big difference in meaning

[Andyourlittledog2]

I don't think Joy watched the French show because of anything that happened to her, I think that they were in Quebec and television is in French a lot there and that's what she was watching. I think that Annie interpreted it as being possessed and 'unclean' but that was her paranoia interpreting the situation and not reality. Also, the Angel eyes were something that Joy spent a long time looking at while in the trance and she drew them obsessively in a reaction to it, not due to possession or whatever. I think Annie just saw these things through her own delusional light. Annie was always obsessed with Joy being protected from the 'dirty birds' and staying pure and I think she thought that Joy was polluted now and could never be 'clean' again after the trance and almost being possessed by Amity. But joy was just Joy, a teenager.

I went back and watched the beginning of ep one and Joy's pulling away was quite obvious from the start. She wanted to be a normal teenager and longed for independence and freedom from this lonely loony life Annie subjected her to. In the end Annie could not let that happen. I think that even if they had never been to Salem's Lot Annie would not have been able to allow Joy to become an adult and have her own life. Tragedy was going to happen one way or another at some point.

I too loved this season.  I hope season three focuses on Derry with some explanation about Salem's Lot and the goings on that occurred there so we'll know.

[Paloma]

22 minutes ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I don't think Joy watched the French show because of anything that happened to her, I think that they were in Quebec and television is in French a lot there and that's what she was watching.

That makes sense--I knew they went to Canada but forgot that they were in Quebec, which is funny because I even said to my husband that the back of the house and the walkway or dock where Annie was taking care of the elderly patient (and where she drowned Joy) reminded me of a B&B where we stayed in a trip to Quebec 4 years ago. 

27 minutes ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I went back and watched the beginning of ep one and Joy's pulling away was quite obvious from the start. She wanted to be a normal teenager and longed for independence and freedom from this lonely loony life Annie subjected her to. In the end Annie could not let that happen. I think that even if they had never been to Salem's Lot Annie would not have been able to allow Joy to become an adult and have her own life. Tragedy was going to happen one way or another at some point.

Yes, I saw that too, and it became even stronger when she met Chance and the other independent kids living in the cabins. Considering the events that led to Joy becoming Annie's "daughter," it was definitely a doomed relationship from the start--it was just a matter of time before Joy's loyalty to Annie was outweighed by the need to escape their crazy life.

[nekilarose]

Quick question about Annie's meds. I know Ace  switched out her meds for placebo 's, but did she ever get back on them? Was she still taking the placebo's? I know we saw her crush up some pills,and Joy said the ice cream tasted funny, but we know Annie only restock when she's low/out of pills. Did she manage to get more pills along the way? Or was she mooching off her patients meds?

[Paloma]

6 hours ago, nekilarose said:

Quick question about Annie's meds. I know Ace  switched out her meds for placebo 's, but did she ever get back on them? Was she still taking the placebo's? I know we saw her crush up some pills,and Joy said the ice cream tasted funny, but we know Annie only restock when she's low/out of pills. Did she manage to get more pills along the way? Or was she mooching off her patients meds?

Good question. I don't know when she could have had the time to either find her real pills in Marsten House or get new ones after they escaped Castle Rock. As far as I could tell, taking care of the elderly patient at the house in Canada was her first post-escape job, and it's unlikely that this patient would be taking the kind of antipsychotics she needed. Maybe she stole a prescription pad from her patient's doctor, or maybe before taking that job she got a temporary job in a doctor's office or hospital. But since these things weren't shown or referred to (as far as I can remember), it does seem like a plot hole.  

[stacyasp]

Who was the woman in the audience at the book reading that they focused on briefly?

[archer1267]

33 minutes ago, stacyasp said:

Who was the woman in the audience at the book reading that they focused on briefly?

Do you mean Annie's mother? I thought it was her, since the shot then panned to her dad in the audience.

[Paloma]

8 minutes ago, archer1267 said:

42 minutes ago, stacyasp said:

Who was the woman in the audience at the book reading that they focused on briefly?

Do you mean Annie's mother? I thought it was her, since the shot then panned to her dad in the audience.

Yes, she saw both her mother and her father in the audience, which made it clear that Annie was either dreaming or hallucinating. I thought that was the perfect lead-in to the empty chair scene. 

[shelley1234]

My theory on the Henry Deaver missing poster.   We saw the Angel disappear in the final episode.   I think he went back to his timeline and this world's Henry Deaver was sucked in that dimension with him.   I think that our Henry Deaver is locked in a cage somewhere in the Angel's world.  

[ferjy]

Well, after the anticipation after Pop dosed himself with Haldol last episode, Tim Robbins didn’t get to do much in this episode! We already knew the Haldol would keep him from turning and that he would save the others, but I thought there would be more to it and that it would play out longer. Guess they had to tie up that story to have time to finish Annie’s storyline. I agree with the members who said the two storylines didn’t jive together. It would have been better to show them separately in different seasons. I couldn’t get into Annie’s story and would have preferred the Amity and Angel plotline more fleshed out.

Edited December 16, 2019 by ferjy