Dublin Murders - General Discussion

[Captanne]

I saw the end today. Enjoyed the episode but would have much preferred to binge the show. Have already cancelled my Starz account. Yeah, I didn’t think ahead and do it all in one week. Shucks!

[Irlandesa]

28 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

And her whole thing with Rob and Cassie at the end?  I didn't really get where all that was coming from.  Yeah, Rob rejected her advances, but he was trying to sincerely help her I thought.

I don't think it's that she didn't like Rob or Cassie but that she knew the knowledge about who Rob really was (Adam) was enough to compromise the investigation.  She saw it as her "get out of jail free" card.  And the lawyer/other cops treated it as thus although I'm not sure why.

32 minutes ago, KBrownie said:

I knew it was coming, but I wanted more Rob and Cassie.  I hate that's that how they ended and that they teased the reconciliation between Cassie and O'Neil(?)

If this were an American TV show, I would expect both back but since it's not and it looks like both were sent to non-homicide areas (or the boonies for Rob), I'm not sure.

Spoiler

I know in the books Rob leaves after all of this comes out.  Cassie appears in the second book, at least, but that was already covered this season.  I haven't read the books so I don't know if either of them appear after the second episode.

 

[sara416]

I havebn't completely finished this series yet (one episode left), but I have to chime in and say how much I HATE that they mashed these two stories together. The books were great, I liked The Likeness better than In The Woods, and I would have loved to see that as a stand alone series. I didn't feel like we got nearly as much time to care about the other housemates with this being so rushed. In the books you really get to know each character and the house itself almost becomes a character. But this was so rushed that I didn't know anything about these people. I was far more invested in Rob's storyline in the show. 

I have loved almost all of Tana French's books and I love the way that she takes a secondary character from one book and makes them the main character in the next. I think the casting was done well in this series, with the exception of Frank. I might go back and read the first book to read a description of him, but I never imagined him as a skinny younger guy. I pictured him more like O'Kelly. 

[taragel]

I'm also baffled as to why they mashed The Likeness plot into this one which mostly followed In the Woods. There was also so much emphasis on the old case that there wasn't enough room to properly develop Rob and Cassie's coming together, and especially not how Rosalind is so charming and captivating that Rob is really in her thrall to some degree, despite Cassie's misgivings and how her talking to Rosalind is actually so different feeling in the books -- it feels so dangerous and spellbound and like Cassie's really sacrificing something, letting this girl tear her feelings open despite everyone watching/listening. MEH. I think they really wasted the great chemistry between Sarah Greene and Killian Scott instead of centering it the way they could and should have. 

14 hours ago, KBrownie said:

For anyone who has read the books, do they actually never see each other again and Cassie ends up back with the ex? 

Spoiler

Rob doesn't show up again after the events of In the Woods (though there is a phone call in book 2 to him from Cassie in a vulnerable moment, but he says hello and she just hangs up) . Cassie only gets with Sam after In the Woods in the books. She does end The Likeness back with him. I don't think you ever hear about Cassie again in the series after that.

 

[Starleigh]

I read a really good review in Slate which explained why this adaptation just didn't work, even though it had a great cast with chemistry.  There really wasn't enough of a plot to work into an eight part series, since the books are really about the detectives' inner lives more so than the mystery. I think it would have worked more to do each story separately as a movie rather than a series. They could have really delved into the main character's background then and fleshed things out more.

Btw, since someone asked if there ever is a mention of Cassie or Rob in the later books, no. Though Sam is mentioned once as one of the detectives on the Murder Squad in The Trespasser (a few books later). But I've read interviews of Tana French where she says she's not ruling out a follow up book for either character. She also says she knows what actually happened to the 3 kids in the woods but decided not to put it into the book because she thought it would be too pat or something. I'd love to know but it didn't turn me off when I read it, though I know some readers did.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Starleigh

[raven]

So that happened.  This ended up being pretty disappointing.

A couple of vague conversations and Rosalind figures out that Rob is Adam?  *eye roll*   Then we have to listen to her drone on and on.  I hate villain monologues and hers was so boring.

The side plot with Cassie and the roommates was indeed pointless except for leaving Rob to investigate on his own I guess.   Cassie's conversation with her undercover boss was interesting, where she says that they were so used to doing their own thing and ultimately screwed this one up, that they could have just brought in all the roommates for questioning and broken them down.   I was glad to see that Cassie was affected by what happened and her having to shoot Daniel.

Though the opening scenes with Rob and Cassie were good, I needed more of that kind of bonding throughout the series.  I can see what the show was going for with the "two damaged people who stick with each other even though it's causing further damage" and maybe that's why they shoehorned in the roommate plot, so we could see more of Cassie's trauma.  Ultimately it didn't work for me because I ended up not caring that Rob lost his job and Cassie possibly as well for covering for him - he should, who knows how many conflicts of interest cases he worked on. 

On 12/29/2019 at 10:45 PM, KBrownie said:

what happened to poor Shane.  I wanted to see Sandra Sculley get her justice finally. 

Agree on both points.  I don't mind everything not being wrapped up - I'm actually fine with how they left the kids in the forest plot - but these two things bugged me.

It's too bad, there were interesting pieces and good performances but this ended up being a mess for me.

 

[Starleigh]

Re: Adam's mom...She was portrayed totally differently than in the book. Also, his dad was still alive. He had a good, if not close relationship with them. And the other kids' parents didn't blame him at all, that was added into the show to heighten the drama, I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Starleigh]

Just now, Starleigh said:

Re: Adam's mom...She was portrayed totally differently than in the book. Also, his dad was still alive. He had a good, if not close relationship with them. And the other kids' parents didn't blame him at all, that was added into the show to heighten the drama, I guess. At one point in his inner monologue, he admitted to a secret fear that he was just too big and clumsy to keep up with his friends (I guess he was on the cusp of puberty while they were still very childlike) and that's why he was left alive. I think that's what the show was referring to. 

 

 

Just now, Starleigh said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carrps]

On 12/8/2019 at 8:36 AM, ghoulina said:

I've read all of French's books, but it was years ago. So I'm enjoying not remembering exactly what happened. 

For instance, I know what happened with Katie (won't say), but I cannot remember what happened with Peter and Jamie in 85. 

This is, indeed, a mash-up of In the Woods and The Likeness. I'm not 100% sure, but I do not remember the stories crossing over in the books. The only thing crossed over was Cassie. I'm pretty sure she finished the Katie investigation with Rob before the thing with Lexie happened. 

So yea, I'm not really sure why they're mashing them together. I think it's going to take traction from the stories. I actually enjoyed The Likeness better, as a book. But, as for television, I'm most invested in Rob's case. 

Other than that, I'm loving everything about this. It's impossible to capture French's beautiful prose on film, but the mood and the acting - it's all very well done. 

Gosh, I totally forgot about going to Primetimer for this show. Duh. 

The above comment fits my feelings pretty much. I enjoyed In the Woods, but preferred The Likeness as books. It's such a shame that the latter got such short shrift in this mashup. You really don't get any sense of the magnetism of Daniel's personality and his charm. From this version, there doesn't seem to be any reason for anyone to want to stay with him. I'm a huge fan of Tana French, and it was a shame this was the what she got.

I actually like The Secret Place a LOT, and I wouldn't have thought I would from a description of the plot. French can make you believe things you didn't think you would!

Broken Harbour is actually the one I liked the least. It seemed to isolated and... thin? ... somehow.

I'd love to see good versions of her books.

[Captanne]

For me, the series would have benefited greatly by dropping all at once.  By the time the bypass was even mentioned, I couldn't keep the two plots straight let alone understand the labyrinthine motivations of the entire cast.  I had no idea who the youngsters were in the house or what, if any, relation they bore to the younger children in the woods during any given timeline.   

If I could have binged the series, I might have been able to put the plotlines into some sort of order.  As it was, I didn't care about any of these horrible people -- not one of them ever grew on me.  (Let alone the fate of the two chums in the woods, did we ever find out how Cassie had an unknown identical twin?)

[meep.meep]

Yes, we actually did.  Not an identical twin, but someone who looked just like her.  One of the roommates, the gay guy, had been in a class with Cassie when she was undercover as Lexie.  Then he ran into the other girl on a bus, greeted her as Lexie, and she apparently just ran with it.

I've spent my entire life with other people convinced that I was their friend from high school, so I can buy it.

The thing that I couldn't understand them changing, is that in the book

Spoiler

Rosalind gets away with it because Rob has questioned her without a parent or an attorney and it turns out she is not yet 18.

 

[Captanne]

But, about the doppelganger, we didn't get any comment about how bizarre it is to simply have one out in the world somewhere and then randomly meet them on a bus?  It's completely implausible.  

I have one of those faces where folks say, "I've seen you somewhere before...." also, I'm the product of a closed adoption....I could have been an identical twin, I have no idea.  But, I'll tell you right now, if one suddenly popped up in the town where I live, I'd raise holy hell.  A point would be made of it.

I don't quite understand your question about Rosalind.....she didn't get away with it.  She went to jail, right? 

Spoiler

So, in the books she walks?

  There is a very serious UK law about having a "responsible adult" in the room with children based on a case where a child witness was taken advantage of and there was a (perceived) miscarriage of justice based on the evidence provided.

[meep.meep]

On the show one thing happened.  In the book, a different thing happened.  I don't see why they changed it.

[izabella]

On the show, Rosalind walks because of the conflict of interest of Rob/Adam investigating her and her family.  I'm pretty sure I heard that as a throwaway line between Rob and Cassie.

[Captanne]

OMG, I totally missed that.  I just remember her driving off in the police car.  [head desk]

[Quilt Fairy]

On 12/30/2019 at 9:02 PM, Starleigh said:

. She also says she knows what actually happened to the 3 kids in the woods but decided not to put it into the book because she thought it would be too pat or something.

I read that interview, too, and I think it's a lie.   I think she wrote herself an unsolvable mystery and had to drop in some supernatural bullshit to make an ending.  It's a complete cheat to the reader (or in this case, the watcher). 

[luckylou]

On 12/24/2019 at 8:02 AM, izabella said:

What do you think is suggested?  What I've gathered is he and his "friends" watched the teenagers rape the girl, and then ran away.  Rob/Adam tags along with the other two, the ones that disappeared, and they barely tolerate him and bully him.  Adam was found hugging a tree with some kind of marks on his back and blood in his shoes.  Does that mean the ones who disappeared hurt him and then...what?   Their bodies weren't found, so Adam couldn't have killed them....they would have been found.  Did they run away?  Forever? 

Sorry I have been slow to respond.  In the book, we learn that the girl was being sent away to school by her single mom, and she (Jamie) and Peter planned to run away.  Adam resisted that idea.  The book does not really suggest, as the TV show does, that Peter and Jamie were mean to Adam...just that they were not so kind as he remembered  and that they were planning to run away.  The problem I have believing that they had simply run off, leaving him behind, are the scratches on his back and the blood, which we are told was either Jamie or Adam’s,  because of blood type, in his shoes.  But maybe the scratches are from running through the tangled brush and the blood from ? Jamie using his socks to stop bleeding or something.  I do not think he was found tangled in the tree as in the tv episode.

[Captanne]

Unfortunately all of this "fill in the blanks" between the aired show and the books by third parties (those of us here) and the fact that the aired show left so much out -- ADDED to the fact that French herself said she knew what happened to Jamie and Peter but "chose not to write it"* makes me think that French is not a very good novelist.  It doesn't make me want to read her books, that's for sure.

*She's quoted here just two entries above in this thread.

[Quilt Fairy]

Let me add that there are some writers that I totally believe have created a backstory for their characters that we never see.  I believe, for example, that J K Rowling had lists of every student at Hogwarts (and their backstories) whether or not they made it into her books.  French, not so much. 

[Captanne]

I call that "method" writing in reference to "method acting".  It's all well and good as long as the fully fleshed-out parts of the characters you create are not necessary for understanding the character as written (motivation, for example.)  

[lidarose9]

On 1/10/2020 at 6:57 AM, Captanne said:

Unfortunately all of this "fill in the blanks" between the aired show and the books by third parties (those of us here) and the fact that the aired show left so much out -- ADDED to the fact that French herself said she knew what happened to Jamie and Peter but "chose not to write it"* makes me think that French is not a very good novelist.  It doesn't make me want to read her books, that's for sure.

*She's quoted here just two entries above in this thread.

This is why I love Primetimer! You guys just saved me a whole bunch of time! I read the books back when they came out, and was intensely disappointed with them both. Terrific ideas, great writing -- but giant flaws.

But sometimes a really good script can fix a book's problems, so I was hoping that might be the case here. But apparently not. My two MAJOR beefs with the books remain in the TV show:

1. "In The Woods" was such a great story but...

Spoiler

leaving the 1985 case unsolved was just lazy writing and a cheat to the readers.

2.  I found the premise of the second book completely unbelievable. How could anybody pass themselves off as another person in such an intimate setting: close friends living together 24/7? I don't buy it. 

About the acting: I thought both Cassie and Rob were kind of wooden, and found it difficult to care about them. But it really doesn't matter: no matter how great the acting, I would not have liked any show that...

Spoiler

doesn't wrap up the central storyline, unless it's a cliffhanger for season two. Which this is not, apparently.

Although I am bailing before the second storyline was properly launched, I can see that combining the two books into one show would be impossible, so I'm not surprised it didn't work.

[ghoulina]

Y'all, this show made me decide to re-read In the Woods. I just absolutely love French's writing. It's simply beautiful. And I'm not used to such beautiful prose in a procedural. It holds up. 

But, damn, I didn't realize how MUCH the show changed. It's like they kept the basic skeleton, but mixed up all the details. I'm kind of glad I had forgotten so much. I would have really disliked the show, otherwise.

[Captanne]

Like lidarose9, I found the main actors wooden and weird -- too weird to develop compassion for.  (Robbie's gesticulations in the shower were scifi-worthy; I thought he was going to metamorphose into a werewolf or something).

Leaving 1985 undone was simply lazy writing and a disservice to the audience.  That is a fatal weakness in both the book and the series.  It's not amusing or coy.  It's lazy and a disappointment.

The premise of the doppelganger was completely unbelievable to me.  Not the fact of one, but the way the entire cast and story line reacted to it.*  Rather than "holy shit what is this all about and, Good God, she's been murdered!  Imagine the coincidence?!  You can't?  Yeah, me neither." 

But seriously, me neither. 

 

*If a "story line" can react.

[ghoulina]

I don't have a problem with 1985 being undone, or think it's lazy writing. Do I wish I had answers? Of course! But I don't think that was ever the point. It wasn't ever meant to be solved. The cases weren't related - except for Rob. That was the point of it, IMO. The murder of Katy being in the same location where his friends went missing drudged up so much old stuff with him. He was losing his mind over the course of the investigation. It was all about the effect it had on him, and how it caused him to screw up the current case - not what actually happened to Peter and Jamie.

[izabella]

It's unsatisfying as a viewer, both because nothing is resolved on the 1985 case, and, if it's a character study, nothing is resolved or changed with Rob, either.  He isn't any better at the end of the long road to nowhere, nor is he any closer to getting better.  So what was achieved by this story about Rob? 

It's also unbelievable that Rob isn't able to remember anything, despite years of hypnosis and whatnot that he supposedly tried.   His two friends disappear, he's found hurt with blood, and is completely unable to remember anything, even after years of working on that?

Then add the unbelievable doppelganger stuff, and this was a huge waste of acting/directing/viewing.

[ghoulina]

No, nothing really did change with Rob. It's tragic. That's probably why a lot of people find French's books "too depressing", but I rather like them. 

As for why he can't remember - just speculating here, but if he had something to do with it, that might cause quite the mental block. Or if he failed to help/save them in some way.

[lidarose9]

At the beginning of the book, I remember wondering if the crime was somehow connected to the archeological site. Like the crime was some modern-day recreation of a Neolithic sacrificial ritual by a nutcase pedophile. It was a tantalizing suspicion -- and then the overlay of the 1985 crime and the present day: it was an enticing prospect! Victims never found: could it have been a time slip? Did Doctor Who carry them off? I was let down when I realized there was nothing to it. At all.

Acting-wise, there were moments in that first episode that were really chilling. When they went to inform the parents of the girl's murder, the mother's outburst was heartbreaking. Some of the camera work was really wonderful too.

I was completely flummoxed by the incident in the shower. I agree: he looked like he was turning into a werewolf. It was bizarre.

[Jenniferbug]

I'm hoping to binge this next time we get a free trial of Starz for a weekend, but I am SO disappointed to hear that they combined 2 books into 1 story. I didn't really like In the Woods much because I was more invested in 1985 than the present day, so it bugged me to leave that hanging. I hoped the show would fix that and write an ending.

I adore The Likeness. I apparently have a doppelganger in my small area, no explanation for it, never met her myself, not that bothered about it, so that part really didn't bother me. I think the undercover prep and how she manages to make it work for so long is more internal than a show can allow and also apparently more time than this show wanted to give it as each book should really be it's own season. 

I'm curious if they'll do any of the other books. The Secret Place was pretty good and would make an interesting season.  

Spoiler

Aside from that magic stuff that randomly shows up with the girls being able to turn lights off with their minds or something? That really took me out of the story. Did they explain that ever? Were they on drugs at the time and I missed that?

Broken Harbor was interesting but by far the most depressing. I honestly don't really remember The Trespasser. 

I'd love to see adaptations of her novels done well. This sounds like it made some bizarre choices and that's too bad. 

[Starleigh]

7 hours ago, ghoulina said:

No, nothing really did change with Rob. It's tragic. That's probably why a lot of people find French's books "too depressing", but I rather like them. 

As for why he can't remember - just speculating here, but if he had something to do with it, that might cause quite the mental block. Or if he failed to help/save them in some way.

That's pretty much her books--all about damaged characters, lol. Rob is not even the most damaged one, I think I'd give the honors to Scorcher Kennedy in Broken Harbor.

I find her books are divisive in that either readers love or hate them. Not much middle ground. I love her writing and her damaged characters, so any sticking points in the plot don't bother me much.

That said, my best friend is still annoyed I "made" her read In the Woods a few years ago and has made it clear she won't read any other French books. So I get the hate!

But I totally converted my sister into a Tana French fan, and to this day, the highest recommendation we can give for a book or tv show is to say "It's totally a Tana French" which is enough to get the other to give it a try. It's like the highest compliment we can bestow lol.

YYMMV of course...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ghoulina]

19 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

I'm hoping to binge this next time we get a free trial of Starz for a weekend, but I am SO disappointed to hear that they combined 2 books into 1 story. I didn't really like In the Woods much because I was more invested in 1985 than the present day, so it bugged me to leave that hanging. I hoped the show would fix that and write an ending.

I adore The Likeness. I apparently have a doppelganger in my small area, no explanation for it, never met her myself, not that bothered about it, so that part really didn't bother me. I think the undercover prep and how she manages to make it work for so long is more internal than a show can allow and also apparently more time than this show wanted to give it as each book should really be it's own season. 

I'm curious if they'll do any of the other books. The Secret Place was pretty good and would make an interesting season.  

  Hide contents

Aside from that magic stuff that randomly shows up with the girls being able to turn lights off with their minds or something? That really took me out of the story. Did they explain that ever? Were they on drugs at the time and I missed that?

Broken Harbor was interesting but by far the most depressing. I honestly don't really remember The Trespasser. 

I'd love to see adaptations of her novels done well. This sounds like it made some bizarre choices and that's too bad. 

Broken Harbor was my absolute favorite! I think something is very wrong with me. 

I adored The Likeness as well. It would be second favorite of hers. I hated that they combined the two because it really forced them to breeze through both stories. Honestly, I'm not sure that one could have ever been made into a worthy television show. So much of the greatness of THAT particular book was French's writing itself; the emotions and mood she conveyed. I'm not sure you'd ever be able to put that onto the screen.

[Jenniferbug]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Broken Harbor was my absolute favorite! I think something is very wrong with me. 

I adored The Likeness as well. It would be second favorite of hers. I hated that they combined the two because it really forced them to breeze through both stories. Honestly, I'm not sure that one could have ever been made into a worthy television show. So much of the greatness of THAT particular book was French's writing itself; the emotions and mood she conveyed. I'm not sure you'd ever be able to put that onto the screen.

Ha! Nothing wrong with you! 😊 I've just realized that since becoming a parent, I struggle with stories involving young kids, which is my personal weird hang up. Broken Harbor is a really great book! 

Yeah I think so much of what makes The Likeness great are things that are very difficult to show on screen. So much of Cassie falling into wanting to be part of the friends because she's mourning her friendship with Rob, and the ways she and Lexie made different choices in the same situation and how that messes with her head couldn't be shown without some cheesy monologue or diary or something. 

I really want to reread the books now! 

[ghoulina]

22 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

I really want to reread the books now! 

Do it! I had to. Just started The Likeness after finish In the Woods this weekend.

[Quilt Fairy]

11 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Just started The Likeness

Try the audiobook.  https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Likeness-Audiobook/B078SCJPNW?qid=1579849155&sr=1-1&pf_rd_p=e81b7c27-6880-467a-b5a7-13cef5d729fe&pf_rd_r=PCAK538TFMHQRVF9VS28&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1

[mledawn]

I just binged this series, primarily because the actor who plays Rob was in Jack Taylor with Iain Glen. I also have the audiobooks for French's novels but haven't listened to them yet.
It wasn't fantastic.

The students in the house were just a few misfits being lead around by Danny the charismatic rich kid but that was all? They were assholes so the locals didn't like them? Why did buddy throw the rock?

I obviously understand how Rob presents a conflict of interest but for the whole case to be tossed? Rosalind deliberately asks to confess to Cassie, so he isn't involved in that aspect.

I can't imagine watching this week-to-week, I probably would have given up.

[Quilt Fairy]

5 hours ago, mledawn said:

The students in the house were just a few misfits being lead around by Danny the charismatic rich kid but that was all? They were assholes so the locals didn't like them? Why did buddy throw the rock?

Do not judge the book(s) by the TV show. The plot of The Likeness was distorted beyond understanding to smish it into the plot of In The Woods where it didn't belong.  The audiobook of The Likeness is terrific, with a great narrator.  I have listened to it several times over the years.  I think you'll enjoy it. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Quilt Fairy

[theatremouse]

On 1/21/2020 at 10:28 AM, izabella said:

It's also unbelievable that Rob isn't able to remember anything, despite years of hypnosis and whatnot that he supposedly tried.   His two friends disappear, he's found hurt with blood, and is completely unable to remember anything, even after years of working on that?

I find it completely believable if his memory loss were due to head injury and not just trauma. A childhood friend was jumped and badly beaten once. He remembers eating dinner the night before it happened. He remembers being seen by a doctor the day after it happened. He does not remember anything that happened the day of, nothing he did the morning before it happened, not the attack itself, not being taken to the ER, nothing. There were plenty of witnesses so we know exactly what happened, but he has zero memory of any of it. He used to tell us having that giant blank space was more disturbing to him than the pain of his injuries. Of course, knowing someone this sort of thing happened to colors my view of plots like this.

I know part of the premise in the show is Adam was mysteriously and suspiciously uninjured, and his shoes filled with someone else's blood, and the shirt was slashed but his back wasn't. So it's somewhat implied if he'd had a concussion they'd have mentioned that, so he must not have. Still if he'd taken a blow to the head - or even been drugged while he was out there - if he were unconscious for the bulk of what he doesn't remember, then there are no memories to recover. The show had him fruitlessly struggling trying to remember and I think the way they presented that did a disservice to the plot because it created this sort of false sense that there might be something to remember, when as presented it's much more likely there isn't. I think could've been a more interesting character study to see him struggling with that - while we the audience know it's never going to happen - than to try to tease to us it might. Because with the latter it becomes more about plot: will he remember and that's the big reveal and how everything is solved? vs with the former it's about what drives him as a person.

[TaraS1]

I just watched this over the weekend and I'm disappointed that I let the first couple of episodes trick me into thinking the whole thing would be good.  As everyone else has said, combining the missing kids/Katy thing with the whole Lexie/doppleganger/murder thing was a huge error in judgment by TPTB.

On the plus side, this introduced me to Killian Scott who, despite not being my type in any way, I found insanely hot throughout lol

[mledawn]

On 6/8/2020 at 9:01 AM, TaraS1 said:

On the plus side, this introduced me to Killian Scott who, despite not being my type in any way, I found insanely hot throughout lol

Check him out in Jack Taylor - I think it's streaming on Netflix. He isn't a main character but he's fun.