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S01.E07: The Fight to the Death


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That was almost perfect. Loved Lyra tricking Iofur... you could tell she was nervous, but she knew exactly what to say and she lied convincingly. She earned the name Silvertongue. I didn't think Iorek's trick was quite as obvious (it seemed more like he got an extra burst of strength from Iofur threatening Lyra than that he was faking worse injuries than he had), but it worked well enough. I love the idea that you can't trick a bear... unless that bear is acting more like a human.

The scenes in Will's world were appropriately tense, as well. It's a bit slower of a story, but it's working for me, especially in this episode where both storylines stayed tense throughout as they built up to action. This week I didn't feel any sense of annoyance when we switched between worlds. The episode seemed more tightly-written than the others and had better dialogue, too. I'm looking forward to the finale!

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Loved the episode but I am such a wuss that I looked away during the CGI bear fight, LOL. The Seattle Goodwill had a stuffed Polar Bear that someone shot 100 years ago in a glass case on display, the bear was shown on it's haunches and man, it is hard to conceptualize how enormous these bears are, this one stood about 12 feet---it was huge!

One thing that sort of bugs me is that Daphne looks nothing like the people cast as her parents, both of whom have blue eyes (statistically it is unlikely that parents with blue eyes would have a brown eyed child, I think that Andrew Scott should have played Asriel because he looks like Daphne could be his daughter--yeah I am anal.)

Ruth Wilson continues to kill it as Mrs, Coulter IMO, she was terrific and terrifying in this episode. 

I haven't read the books but I have listened partly to the audio versions of the next 2 novels so I pretty much know what is coming, but it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the series at all I find, in fact I am looking forward to how the series handles the next 2 books.

I will miss this show until series 2 premieres next year. 

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Awww, I love Iorek and Lyra's friendship. That was a pretty bold lie to tell about being a human daemon, but Iofur wanted to believe it so badly that it worked.

Asriel seemed way too excited to see Roger which makes me worried for what will happen next week.

Mrs. Coulter really needs some anger management classes. First she attacked Lyra and this week it was that poor nurse girl. Impulse control, girl. You need some.

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I realize that this is a fantasy show and therefore is not supposed to be hyper-realistic, but an explanation of how Lyra was able to survive such a long fall from the airship to what looked like hard packed ice would have been nice. Like just have her wake up in a poofy snow drift, or have the witch prevent her from splattering all over the ground by using her magic.

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I'm absolutely loving Ruth Wilson, which more than absolves her from the hot mess that the Affair devolved to.

I thought the bear CGI was terrific.  In fact, the whole look of the show is great.

If I were Roger, I'd be really nervous about the welcome he's getting from Lord Asriel.  On the other hand, he is by far my least favorite character, so I wouldn't mind if he gets sacrificed or something.  (read the books long long ago, don't really remember much).

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Quite an adventure for a little girl.  Each step of the way she sees things which are both marvelous and horrific, especially the violence.

I don't think she's as engaging as Arya in Game of Thrones, who had an extended journey herself, trying to stay alive as well as plot her revenge.

Lyra has this innate ability, not just with the alethiometer but with guile to navigate the world of hostile parties.  Arya has innate ability with combat, which translates better visually than Lyra hunched over the alethiometer.

But they both have strong wills, in the pursuit of revenge and justice in Arya's case and fighting against repressive forces in Lyra's case.

Arya compiled a long list of people she wanted to assassinate.  Lyra isn't out to spill blood herself (at least not yet) but she certainly is able to lead the Gyptians and Iorek to do the spilling of the blood.

Of course GoT was very effective at vilifying the Lannisters immediately, especially Jack.  Mrs. Lannister isn't quite that monstrous, though her roar wasn't something you'd associate with a human being.

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I realize that this is a fantasy show and therefore is not supposed to be hyper-realistic, but an explanation of how Lyra was able to survive such a long fall from the airship to what looked like hard packed ice would have been nice. Like just have her wake up in a poofy snow drift, or have the witch prevent her from splattering all over the ground by using her magic.

Yeah I was expecting a reveal that Serafina had swooped in and saved her or something. Maybe that's still coming. Otherwise . . . Lyra should be little more than a stain on the ground after a fall like that.

Edited by iMonrey
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Is it wrong I get so excited whenever Iorek has screen time?  I love his character and low rumbling voice.  The voice over actor and both VFX houses Painting Practice and Framestore, have done a marvelous job bringing Iorek to life.

Like @ElectricBoogaloo pointed out above, I am deeply concerned for Roger next week.  The first thing that popped in my mind is that underneath it all, Asriel is more like Mrs Coulter.  That scares me.

Edited by go4luca
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Did Mrs Coulter really open her mouth that wide while screaming or was that CGI?

When Will wrapped the belt around his fist and punched that guy, did the guy trip over a cat? I heard the cat scream but I couldn't tell if it was a real cat or a stuffed animal.

It is kind of weird that all the soldiers that do the same thing all have the same kinds of daemons, all dogs and wolves for guards, or all birds for paratroopers, etc. It makes you think that what you will become is determined at an early age, you have a wolf so you will be an officer over all the people who have dogs.

On 12/15/2019 at 6:49 PM, Cranberry said:

That was almost perfect. Loved Lyra tricking Iofur... you could tell she was nervous, but she knew exactly what to say and she lied convincingly. She earned the name Silvertongue. I didn't think Iorek's trick was quite as obvious (it seemed more like he got an extra burst of strength from Iofur threatening Lyra than that he was faking worse injuries than he had), but it worked well enough. I love the idea that you can't trick a bear... unless that bear is acting more like a human.

The scenes in Will's world were appropriately tense, as well. It's a bit slower of a story, but it's working for me, especially in this episode where both storylines stayed tense throughout as they built up to action. This week I didn't feel any sense of annoyance when we switched between worlds. The episode seemed more tightly-written than the others and had better dialogue, too. I'm looking forward to the finale!

Apparently bears are incapable of being tricked.  In the books

Spoiler

 

Lyra tries to train Iorek by doing feints with a stick.  Iorek never budged but then she poked him so he flicked the stick away.

But Iofur was a human wannabe.  He put in gold faucets in the bear palace and then started taking a rag doll around as if the rag doll was a daemon.  The other bears copied this tic.  That is how Lyra knew how to convince Iofur to fight, by telling him she was Iorek’s daemon.

 

While Lyra was deceiving Iofur, in the other world Boreal couldn’t deceive Will’s mother.  He was so exasperated that he told his henchmen to ransack their home.

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On 12/17/2019 at 1:49 PM, AnimeMania said:

It is kind of weird that all the soldiers that do the same thing all have the same kinds of daemons, all dogs and wolves for guards, or all birds for paratroopers, etc. It makes you think that what you will become is determined at an early age, you have a wolf so you will be an officer over all the people who have dogs.

There's actually a reason explained in the books for this.

Spoiler

Basically, if you have a dog daemon, you're in servitude of some kind. A low level servant would have a mix breed dog and a high level servant would have a pure breed of some sort. So it makes sense that soldiers have German Shepherd type dogs. 

 

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On 12/18/2019 at 7:32 AM, TrixieTrue said:

There's actually a reason explained in the books for this.

Spoiler

Basically, if you have a dog daemon, you're in servitude of some kind. A low level servant would have a mix breed dog and a high level servant would have a pure breed of some sort. So it makes sense that soldiers have German Shepherd type dogs. 

 

I was more interested in the fact that

Spoiler

that aspect of your life is determined at puberty (around 14-15 years). So if someone has a Chihuahua or Poodle dog as a daemon they would not be thought of as the right person to be a General or President and your life choices/paths are determined/set at a very young age. It almost seems like there is no free will. Would you marry a girl who's daemon is a black widow spider or one who has a butterfly.

 

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On 12/18/2019 at 9:12 AM, AnimeMania said:

I was more interested in the fact that

Spoiler

that aspect of your life is determined at puberty (around 14-15 years). So if someone has a Chihuahua or Poodle dog as a daemon they would not be thought of as the right person to be a General or President and your life choices/paths are determined/set at a very young age. It almost seems like there is no free will. Would you marry a girl who's daemon is a black widow spider or one who has a butterfly.

 

This is an interesting point and one that I think a lot about as an American living in Germany. In Germany, you can go in several directions after you finish elementary school. Gymnasium (which is basically like middle school and high school and puts you on the university track), Realschule (which is basically a lower-level gymnasium), and Hauptschule (which is the lowest level secondary school). You can also go to a trade school and will become an apprentice around the age of sixteen.

Your grades and the entrance tests determine which type of school you go to. 

Fun fact - if I go to gymnasium and then onto university and get a degree, and you go to realschule and go to the same university and get the same degree, my salary will be higher than yours because I went to gymnasium.   

This system puts you in your "place" in society around 11/12 years old. A lot of people here want to change it, but this kind of systemic change takes a really long time. 

And as much as we like to believe that anyone in the US can grow up to be president, the place we start out in life has a big impact on that. In a way, your daemon is reflective of not only your personality, but also your social class.  

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I freaking everything with Lorek and the armored bears, they just look so freaking great! With the amazing CGI and big booming voice, they've done such a great job with Lorek, and I love all of the scenes between him and Lyra. She really did play Lofur like a furry fiddle, figuring out exactly what he would want to hear and using it to manipulate him into fighting Lorek, and then just wait for him to get his ass kicked. You cant fool a bear, but you can fool a bear who desperately wants to be a human! 

Its always out of the frying pan and into the fire for Roger and Lyra, even now that she found Lord Asriel, who might be just as dangerous as Mrs. Coulter. Speaking of, Mrs. Coulter always seems so poised, but she can also be so quick to this almost animalistic level of violence and screaming and totally losing it, then goes right back to calm and in control, like the screaming violent side of her is the "real" Mrs. Coulter and she is always trying to push that side down, so its always there, this violent rage just simmering under the surface. 

Awwww Lee was so happy to hear that Lorek got his kingdom back! 

The stuff with Will is appropriately tense, but I get so used to Lyras world that its almost whiplash to come back to the "real" world again. When I saw Will and his moms cat, I swear I thought that the cat was Wills moms deamon for a second before I remembered what world this was!

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On 12/18/2019 at 1:06 PM, TrixieTrue said:

And as much as we like to believe that anyone in the US can grow up to be president, the place we start out in life has a big impact on that. In a way, your daemon is reflective of not only your personality, but also your social class.  

Now I'm thinking about this even more...I don't think this every happens in the books, but what if you come from a family of servants and when your daemon settles, it settles as a snow leopard (which is Lord Asrial's daemon). I think someone would take notice of that and you might get put into a boarding school or something. 

In one of the prequels,

Spoiler

The Book of Dust, a young boy, Malcolm, lives in a small town and his parents have a tavern (neither of their daemons are dogs -his mom's might be a badger). His intelligence is noticed and had life gone on normally in the book, he probably would have settled into running a tavern like his father. But people notice him and do things to help him move in a different direction. We don't learn what his daemon settles as, but it's probably something special, since he's special.  

 

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49 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I freaking everything with Lorek and the armored bears, they just look so freaking great!

The stuff with Will is appropriately tense, but I get so used to Lyras world that its almost whiplash to come back to the "real" world again. When I saw Will and his moms cat, I swear I thought that the cat was Wills moms deamon for a second before I remembered what world this was!

Yay for another Iorek fan!

Re: Will - it is a weird transition every time they switch worlds / story line but it is interesting how they have chosen to show that world differently cinematically.  The coloring is different.

Quick question.  It appeared Will was on his way back to where he'd left his Mom but then he changed his mind and went back the way he came.  Anyone ideas as to why?

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3 hours ago, go4luca said:

Re: Will - it is a weird transition every time they switch worlds / story line but it is interesting how they have chosen to show that world differently cinematically.  The coloring is different.

I can tell the difference by the buildings, but even more importantly by how noisy our world is compared to theirs.

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Quick question.  It appeared Will was on his way back to where he'd left his Mom but then he changed his mind and went back the way he came.  Anyone ideas as to why?

He accidentally killed that guy and he knows the police will be looking for him, so it's not safe for him to stay with family or friends right now. I'd imagine he probably doesn't want to tell his mom about that and upset her even more, either.

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This was AMAZING. That first glimpse of the palace was so brilliant and disturbing! This big beautiful "almost-human" palace in the snowy mountains, and yet with that huge blood trail down the steps and into the snow because they are all hunters and killers and not humans, but bears. Bears in a palace is an absurd and terrifying concept and the image here was perfect. All the trappings and finery, and yet the blood everywhere, the offal and bones... aghghgh. It was a triumph of set design; I could almost smell it.

And Dafne Keen I think is amazing. The way she had Lyra play on Iofur's feelings and desires to be human was terrific -- that entire scene was so terrifying yet so subtle. I've adored Dafne since her amazing work on "Logan" (I'm still not okay! NOT OKAY!) and I think she's terrific here. She gives Lyra great passion and emotion but we still see her flaws -- she's a frustrating, impatient child who is also visibly, palpably special.

Now we know where some of the daemon-CGI budget went, because that battle between Iorek and Iofur was incredible (I could hardly bear to watch). I loved the way Lyra played Iofur (and her palpable fear for Iorek). I love Lyra's friendship with Iorek. There is this deep sense of love and respect between the two friends, as if Lyra is his daughter, his cub.

Also, I love Iorek's voice (and loved Iofur's too)!

I was also so impressed with Roger again here -- as a book reader, I will simply say that I love how they have expanded Roger. Lyra's friendship and love for him is so real and he's much less a passive character than he was in the books. This is one way I would say the show has improved on the book for me so far.

Meanwhile, Ruth Wilson is just FEARLESS. I just love that savage, feral quality she brings to Mrs. Coulter -- that, alongside her open cunning, sweetness, and seductiveness. I loved the scene where you see her playing Father MacPhail, and she's kind of way too close, attempting to seduce him, yet also knowing he is aware of what she's doing. 

As a book reader, I loved the scene between Lord Boreal and Will's mother, and especially all the little nuances, like seeing Will's much-loved kitty cat, and seeing how isolated he was at school in that way that children often are who have had to grow up too fast. Also, the actor who plays Will, Amir Wilson, is a ridiculously beautiful child who really looks like he could be the son of the actors playing his onscreen parents.

Will's poor sweet mother was so brave confronting Boreal, and her awareness of her own mental fragility was heartbreaking: "I'm frightened of everything. Being frightened of you is just one more thing."

Also, I'm always thrilled to see Andrew Scott, although of course now, every time we see video of Will's father, I am required to shriek, "HOT PRIEST!"

Iorek's run through the mountains with Lyra and Roger was incredibly gorgeous. And that final visual of Asriel's laboratory high on the mountain ledge was spectacular -- impressive and brooding and disquieting too.

As always, James McAvoy was terrific in the final scene as well. I cannot wait for the finale.

On 12/16/2019 at 7:59 PM, Rambler said:

I realize that this is a fantasy show and therefore is not supposed to be hyper-realistic, but an explanation of how Lyra was able to survive such a long fall from the airship to what looked like hard packed ice would have been nice. Like just have her wake up in a poofy snow drift, or have the witch prevent her from splattering all over the ground by using her magic.

It wasn't super-clear, but basically, the cliff-ghast attack caused Lee to lose altitude, so they were not nearly as far above the ground. Also, they were basically going over the mountains/between the peaks, which also lessened the distance. So Lyra's fall into soft snow left her bruised but okay. That's also why Roger and Lee (and Iorek) were also okay despite the balloon being wrecked.

On 12/16/2019 at 10:49 PM, Anothermi said:

Awe. I’m really loving this Roger. 

I absolutely love him. And I love how palpable his friendship is with Lyra. Every time they hug (and he's so much shorter than her!) my heart grows three sizes.

On 12/16/2019 at 11:52 PM, scrb said:

Quite an adventure for a little girl.  Each step of the way she sees things which are both marvelous and horrific, especially the violence.

I don't think she's as engaging as Arya in Game of Thrones, who had an extended journey herself, trying to stay alive as well as plot her revenge.

I don't get the comparison with Arya at all. Beyond their gender and strength, the two are such different characters, in vastly different stories. Although I would say that in Lyra's favor, she inhabits a world in which females have much greater opportunity for power on their own terms.

On 12/18/2019 at 11:37 AM, tennisgurl said:

I freaking everything with Lorek and the armored bears, they just look so freaking great! With the amazing CGI and big booming voice, they've done such a great job with Lorek, and I love all of the scenes between him and Lyra. She really did play Lofur like a furry fiddle, figuring out exactly what he would want to hear and using it to manipulate him into fighting Lorek, and then just wait for him to get his ass kicked. You cant fool a bear, but you can fool a bear who desperately wants to be a human! 

Its always out of the frying pan and into the fire for Roger and Lyra, even now that she found Lord Asriel, who might be just as dangerous as Mrs. Coulter. Speaking of, Mrs. Coulter always seems so poised, but she can also be so quick to this almost animalistic level of violence and screaming and totally losing it, then goes right back to calm and in control, like the screaming violent side of her is the "real" Mrs. Coulter and she is always trying to push that side down, so its always there, this violent rage just simmering under the surface. 

Awwww Lee was so happy to hear that Lorek got his kingdom back! 

The stuff with Will is appropriately tense, but I get so used to Lyras world that its almost whiplash to come back to the "real" world again. When I saw Will and his moms cat, I swear I thought that the cat was Wills moms deamon for a second before I remembered what world this was!

I agree, and love everything you noted as well. I absolutely agree about that wild, fierce quality Ruth Wilson brings to Mrs. Coulter! She's absolutely killing this role.

I love how much Lee loves Iorek, and vice versa.

And how Serafina is like Lee's guardian angel. I totally ship them. (Sorry. I'm a constant shipper.)

Edited by paramitch
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On 12/15/2019 at 6:49 PM, Cranberry said:

This week I didn't feel any sense of annoyance when we switched between worlds.

Gosh I did.  I continue to hate it whenever they switch in "our" reality.  I don't enjoy the woman-in-jeopardy aspect of the story and I literally shouted at the TV when she reached to lock the door (which should have been locked already) and the bad guy got there first.  Honey, use your foot to block the door before you reach for the lock!

 

On 12/16/2019 at 6:01 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Asriel seemed way too excited to see Roger which makes me worried for what will happen next week.

Oh yeah.  A thousand times this.  It suggests that he had asked the bears for a human child to experiment on and that THAT is why he was horrified that Lyra turned up.  This is pure speculation of course but yeah, Asriel seemed WAY too excited to see Roger.

 

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

Also, I'm always thrilled to see Andrew Scott, although of course now, every time we see video of Will's father, I am required to shriek, "HOT PRIEST!"

Not me.  My brain screams "Moriarity!  Run away, run away!"

 

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I thought Asriel was happy to see Roger out of relief. When he saw Lyra, he seemed to panic, kept shouting that he hadn't sent for her - did he know at that point about the change in leadership among the bears? It didn't seem so. I assumed he thought that Lyra had been captured and brought to him to be used as leverage against him. But then, when he saw Roger and realised that the two children had come alone, no Magisterium guards with them, he realised that those fears were mistaken and was relieved, which was why he gushed over Roger.

That was my reading of it, anyway, but until the final episode airs, I guess we won't know what it was all about! (Except for the bookreaders. They know, I presume!)

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

I thought Asriel was happy to see Roger out of relief. When he saw Lyra, he seemed to panic, kept shouting that he hadn't sent for her - did he know at that point about the change in leadership among the bears? It didn't seem so. I assumed he thought that Lyra had been captured and brought to him to be used as leverage against him. But then, when he saw Roger and realised that the two children had come alone, no Magisterium guards with them, he realised that those fears were mistaken and was relieved, which was why he gushed over Roger.

That was my reading of it, anyway, but until the final episode airs, I guess we won't know what it was all about! (Except for the bookreaders. They know, I presume!)

My take was Lord Asriel was just as bad as and was doing the same things as Mrs. Coulter. That is why Mrs. Coulter said take me with you so I can explain what Lord Asriel was doing in his lab. I felt that Lord Asriel asked the bad bears to grab him some children to experiment on and thought they had sent him Lyra. Lord Asriel refused to do his experiments on his daughter, but would gladly do them on Roger. 

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On 12/20/2019 at 11:33 PM, Llywela said:

I thought Asriel was happy to see Roger out of relief. When he saw Lyra, he seemed to panic, kept shouting that he hadn't sent for her - did he know at that point about the change in leadership among the bears? It didn't seem so. I assumed he thought that Lyra had been captured and brought to him to be used as leverage against him. But then, when he saw Roger and realised that the two children had come alone, no Magisterium guards with them, he realised that those fears were mistaken and was relieved, which was why he gushed over Roger.

That was my reading of it, anyway, but until the final episode airs, I guess we won't know what it was all about! (Except for the bookreaders. They know, I presume!)

Spoiler

Asriel is happy to see Roger because he had wanted a child to perform the necessary excision (from daemon) on, but he had been horrified to see Lyra show up, as (it seemed at first) the worst and most ironic answer to his wishes. So he calms down right away when he sees Roger because that means he can kill the boy instead of his own daughter, and his plans are safe. It's pretty brutal.

On 12/21/2019 at 4:49 AM, AnimeMania said:

My take was Lord Asriel was just as bad as and was doing the same things as Mrs. Coulter. That is why Mrs. Coulter said take me with you so I can explain what Lord Asriel was doing in his lab. I felt that Lord Asriel asked the bad bears to grab him some children to experiment on and thought they had sent him Lyra. Lord Asriel refused to do his experiments on his daughter, but would gladly do them on Roger. 

Spoiler

 

Asriel isn't actively experimenting on humans or children like Mrs. Coulter, but he knows what she is doing and he is very much aware of the energy generated by excision -- by dividing a child from its daemon. He says this after the fact. And yes, this is why he was horrified to see Lyra, but calmed and complacent immediately upon seeing Roger. His plans could continue without his murdering his own daughter.

I think Asriel is a terrible person, just not quite as terrible as Mrs. Coulter. It's interesting that each thinks the evil things they do are acceptable because of the "greater good" that will come of them -- Mrs. Coulter in eradicating Dust (and sin?) and Asriel in discovering new worlds in this fight he keeps talking about.

 

 

Edited by paramitch
fixed spoiler tags, so sorry!
Spoiler
28 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Asriel is happy to see Roger because he had wanted a child to perform the necessary excision (from daemon) on, but he had been horrified to see Lyra show up, as (it seemed at first) the worst and most ironic answer to his wishes. So he calms down right away when he sees Roger because that means he can kill the boy instead of his own daughter, and his plans are safe. It's pretty brutal.

This statement is a spoiler for this episode - what you state above becomes clear in the next episode, but I was reacting to this episode, unspoiled. It might be best if you put your comment behind a spoiler tag, for the benefit of anyone else watching unspoiled.

3 minutes ago, Llywela said:
  Hide contents

This statement is a spoiler for this episode - what you state above becomes clear in the next episode, but I was reacting to this episode, unspoiled. It might be best if you put your comment behind a spoiler tag, for the benefit of anyone else watching unspoiled.

Oh, gosh, I didn't realize that. I'm so sorry! Will fix ASAP.

 

I've never read the books or seen the movie and I'm just now starting to watch this series. It's very well done so far.

The one thing that gets me is when Boreal comes into our world to spy on Will and his mom, he comes through that tiny building on the little island in the street. I have a hard time believing that nobody ever sits int that nice shady area and that nobody has discovered that the building leads to Lyra's world.

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