S05.E05: Miss Me x 100

[Shangrilala]

I like this new version of Ali. She's more complicated than the straight up villain we've seen in flashbacks.

 

 

I'm not so sure about that.  I think there were some complexities about Ali that we were never explained to us in the earlier seasons.  We saw a few moments of her and Veronica that led us to believe that something more was going on her life.  There was the scene when she showed up to the girls house in tears and tried to brush it off.  We had the scene where Ali taught Hanna how to throw up her food.  We saw her interest in death as an equivalent to immortality.  I actually think there was quite a bit of unhappiness/darkness in Ali's life, which would have added plenty of complexity to the character, had they chosen to explore it.  This would have provided plenty of acting opportunity for the actress, without bringing her back to life.  I'm not sure that I'm unhappy with Ali being alive, but I also think they missed a great opportunity to really build the character of Ali, after her death.

 

Here's the bottom line about all of the relationships: They bring the characters down. 

 

Ezria:  Enough said

Spoby:  The only episode I've liked with these two was Spencer confronting Toby about A, mainly because I think that Troian rocked that scene in the kitchen and then afterwards when she's crying by Toby's door.

Hanna/Caleb/Travis: I actually don't mind Hanna and Caleb, I especially liked them when they got together.  So if I have to choose one, I'll choose Hanna and Caleb.  I don't feel like I know Travis well enough to

Emily:  Mona tried too hard.  Paige isn't terrible but I don't really like the actress, plus I think Emily should have walked away from her the minute she held her head under the water.  Ali and Emily?  That just screams of unhealthy codependence. 

 

I don't understand why the girls have to be paired up?  Do they all need to be in relationships?  Why can't we have, for example, fun Hanna, single and dating? PLL is falling into the teenage drama trap that everybody needs to be paired up in order for them to have their own storyline.  And it's not always necessary. 

[FAU]

 

I don't understand why the girls have to be paired up?  Do they all need to be in relationships?  Why can't we have, for example, fun Hanna, single and dating? PLL is falling into the teenage drama trap that everybody needs to be paired up in order for them to have their own storyline.  And it's not always necessary.

 

Unfortunately and it's pointless pandering that wastes time and brings the scenes down.

 

 

Wow, I was so psyched when it looked like Alison would be a full time character on the show now but am I ever underwhelmed by this version of Alison the saddest little victim character. Why is it that with Jenna I can totally buy that she has all these different layers (sociopathic rapist, alpha girl, seductive player, traumatised victim, sad girlfriend) but with Alison I feel like she just got a complete personality transplant, it just doesn't feel organic. They're overdoing it with the quivering lips and the teary stares and the trembling voice IMO. It would be way more interesting to see flashes of the old Alison coming through.

 

With Ali, she's stuck in this annoying scared victim role and all we see is scene after scene of her looking sad and scared ever since they brought her in whereas with Jenna, we actually do see other sides to her even if she's not as big of a character.

[Derenaspoby]

I couldn't agree more with the analysis on Alison. She's such a bland character, and her chemistry with Emily is forced. It used to be there in the flashbacks, but now she's this completely fake-looking "nice" character. It just doesn't add up how she comes back and acts so sweet. It makes no sense, and it feels fake and forced! I don't even feel the genuine "love" between her and Emily. I agree on Jenna's new layering. She was fantastic in this episode. I never felt so bad for her until this episode! She always seemed like a terrible person who molested Toby and hated everyone for no reason. But I see it now—she was blinded, everyone she cared about/loved is gone, and she's alone and has nobody! I feel so bad for her, even if she acts creepy sometimes.

[Sakura12]

I agree on Jenna's new layering. She was fantastic in this episode. I never felt so bad for her until this episode! She always seemed like a terrible person who molested Toby and hated everyone for no reason. But I see it now—she was blinded, everyone she cared about/loved is gone, and she's alone and has nobody! I feel so bad for her, even if she acts creepy sometimes.

 

That was mostly an act though. She has a new group with Mona and her look-a-like. The crying part might've been real because I don't know how she'd know the exact moment that Aria would guiltily break into her house to see her. Then she has Toby still running after her when she says she needs him. So she's not alone. Jenna's the real Queen Bee everyone does her bidding while she sits back and smiles creepily playing her flute. 

 

Alison is becoming less and less of a mystery while no one knows what the hell Jenna's up to at any given moment. Even the bus she arrived on said Special. lol. 

[GaT]

I'm not really sure where they're going with Jenna, why did they give her her sight back, & then take it away again? I don't understand the whole point of that. They also can't seem to decide if she should be a sympathetic character, or a bitch. I just wish they would make up their minds.

[Sakura12]

Why should they make up their mind? If she's both she's a much more layered character. She's done horrible things and horrible things have happened to her. Plus she's much creepier when she's blind using her sonar liar detector to find people. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Why should they make up their mind? If she's both she's a much more layered character.

 

To me the problem is that Jenna (and many other characters) seem more like plot devices than actual characters. Plus, I can't take her seriously after the endless "I am blind, no, I am not" shenanigans. And she framed the girls for shovel possession. Unforgivable crime if I ever saw one.

[GaT]

To me the problem is that Jenna (and many other characters) seem more like plot devices than actual characters. Plus, I can't take her seriously after the endless "I am blind, no, I am not" shenanigans. And she framed the girls for shovel possession. Unforgivable crime if I ever saw one.

Exactly. It seems like whether she blind or seeing determines whether she's sympathetic or a bitch. I would understand them making her dimensional, but she isn't dimensional, she just changes dependant on how the writers want the story to go that week. And on a strictly shallow note, Tammin has the most beautiful green eyes, (unless they're contacts) they should have kept her sighted just so everyone could see them.

[Sakura12]

Tammin has the most beautiful green eyes,

 

That can be another thing to feel sorry for Jenna, she's got the most beautiful eyes but no one can see them anymore. Maybe that's why she's a bitch to everyone?

 

I don't think whether she can see or not makes her sympathetic. To me she's creepy when she can see and even more when she can't. She's always creepy and mysterious to me. You can feel sorry for bitches when something bad happens to them, she is still human. We know that Emily never feels sorry for her, so it's not like they are pushing everyone to feel sorry for her. Yeah, they showed us her crying but then they showed us her plotting. Nothing's changed. Jenna's never tried to be something she's not, with her it's this who I am, take it or leave it. 

 

I saw this somewhere and thought it was hilarious. “Get ready Rosewood, you’re about to be placed under...*removes sunglasses*...Marshall Law”

Edited July 10, 2014 by Sakura12

[bettername2come]

Jenna's a bitch and bitches get things done.

 

Given the number of times the Liars have been called bitches by A, you'd think they would've accomplished more.

[Crim]

Rewatching Ali's slow-mo return scene, I just laughed at how old some of those extras looked. Seriously, just check some of those faces.

 

The one interesting thing about the A tag being back now is that it happens right after we see Jenna 's anti-Ali group and then her house blows up. With Shana recently dead, I don't think Jenna would blow up her own house for sympathy or to fake her own death (she could have just returned to Rosewood in secret). We know Mona is working with her this time, and there is a fourth that arrived at the scene but we didn't see (Melissa?), so who would have blown up the house? A+?

 

And that's the part that intrigues me: no matter what the answer is, right now we just have more ambiguity as to what A+ wants with Ali. We now know that the A that wanted to kill her was part of Jenna's group and never A+, and that Ali allegedly was never aware of any of that. The Liars believe that Ali returned to Rosewood because A was dead. But it makes no sense that she came back because of this, because Shana could not have been a part of the initial attempt on her life and the later cover-up. Then again, her mother - who was - also died, and that timing was just perfect. The show is covering up that angle with the Hastings storyline at the moment, but I still wonder how it'll go.

[mac123x]

Oh, they are. They definitely are. That was probably the first Ezria scene I've ever really enjoyed, solely because of that song choice. A+, PLL! A+.

 

Not just the choice of song, but the cover was even creepier than the original.  All those scenes were missing was red lighting or possibly a city burning in the background.

[mercfan3]

I always thought the most interesting thing about Jenna was that it seemed like A+ wants Jenna dead too. I never found her to be a sympathetic character. Yes, the girls blinded her, but not on purpose..and she's a rapist. 

 

But then at the same time, I never thought she was "evil." She's got every right to not want Alison around. Alison has blackmail on her. Alison blinded her. No one would want that person around. But she doesn't really seem to hate the girls THAT much. Her and Aria have always had an almost pleasant relationship. Even though her and Emily have had their fights, she still warned Emily about Nate - meaning she doesn't want the four girls dead. 

 

So the key to A+, IMO, was who wants both Jenna and Ali dead. Toby's got motivation, but I think his phone rang. 

 

Ali..I think of this as rehab. I think she truly feels bad about the way she behaved and wants to make amends. I think what makes it difficult for us to buy, is the same thing that makes it difficult for Spencer to buy. We don't know what happened to Ali. If we did, maybe it would shed some light on why she wants a second chance and to change. But I also think she still needs to stay Ali. Still needs to have Ali's fight back mentality. Still have her ability to draw people in (like Jenna). And still have her bite. And she can still be a good person and a loyal friend and have those traits. (As can Jenna..although rapist Jenna is always going to get a side eye from me.) 

[Sakura12]

but not on purpose..and she's a rapist.

 

That's not the reason she was blinded though. Ali was just being a bitch and threw a firecracker at her head. It had nothing to do with Toby. Just like Hanna slapping her had nothing do to with Toby. That's why both those incidents bother me, it wasn't about Toby, it was about them. We can go with it's karma but not Alison and Hanna getting vengeance for Toby. They were not thinking about him all when they did what they did. 

 

I kind of want the A team to be taking orders from a person they've never seen (probably because she's wearing a mask of someone else face on top of someone elses face on top of her own face while wearing a black veil) to torture the Liars and Alison, then the reveal at the end of the show is Mona, Jenna, Toby, Lucas and Melissa were taking orders from Alison to torture her own self and her friends. We would then have Alison controlling the people that hate her along with all her friends while also hurting herself. Then we can go with Alison's insane. 

Edited July 11, 2014 by Sakura12

[Derenaspoby]

I don't get why Alison thinks it was her friends' faults, too, though. They didn't put the firecracker in. Okay, they didn't stop her from doing it, but they didn't do it, either! Alison manipulated them in a way. Yes, what Jenna did to Toby was totally wrong and gross, but that's not the reason Alison attacked them. She thought that a firecracker was great revenge for Toby after she BELIEVED he was spying on them. I mean, come on! She didn't even know if Toby was really spying on them, but she told her friends that he was as if it's a fact. And instead she got Jenna blind and made Toby take the blame. That was honestly so bad, and Toby didn't deserve that. And also, Jenna didn't deserve it! She's lost so much. I know she's a bit creepy sometimes, and she's apparently in some kind of alliance with Sydney and Mona, but I don't think we know if she's guilty of anything. As of right now, we don't even know that the Sydney-Mona-Jenna team is. I'm choosing to feel bad for Jenna and Toby after everything Alison did to them.

Toby has a bigger reason than Mona's entire army to hate Alison, yet he doesn't do anything to hurt her. Why does everyone think Toby's such a douche bag? He's been through A LOT of crap, I can't blame him for being all pissy sometimes. They all say he's a bad boyfriend to Spencer, but he's forgiven her for a lot, and she's forgiven him for a lot, too. The thing that's best about their love is that they're able to forgive each other no matter what, because they're in love.

[Sakura12]

I'm wondering if we really have all the information on the Toby/Jenna situation. Toby doesn't seem all that upset about it since he still goes running every time Jenna's gets blown up. Why would a rape victim care so much about his rapist? A call to see if she's okay would suffice. He doesn't need to be by her bedside. That's what makes me think there was real feelings for there for awhile, then Jenna took it too far when Toby wanted to break up with her. 

 

Toby plays it more like it was a really bad break up made even worse because she's his step-sister that lives with him. Now they act like a divorced couple. 

Edited July 11, 2014 by Sakura12

[mercfan3]

Oh, I don't think Ali or Hanna's incidents where about Toby. (In fact, the only person who is nasty to Jenna because of Toby is Emily.) I just don't see Jenna as some innocent party that was hurt by the mean girls. No, she's just as much of a Queen Bee as Alison, and she's a rapist. 

 

The Hanna slap...meh..I don't like physical violence but she had Caleb get close to Hanna in order to spy on them. Sure, Caleb is the wrong doer there, but..once again, it's not like Jenna was some innocent victim. 

 

With Toby and Jenna, I think it's simply that the relationship was not a rape between two strangers. That's his half sister. That's someone he has grown up with a bit. Someone who he views as unable to help herself because of her disability. Plus, the show is filled with people clinging to "toxic relationships." I mean heck, Toby gave Spencer a mental break down, and didn't even have to apologize to get her back. Ezra went all creepy stalker on Aria, and at least apologized..but really all he had to do was flash his abs. 

 

I think what people see as a flaw in this show is really a strong suit. Loved ones can do awful things to each other but they are still loved by their victim.

 

BTW: I think Emison is actually Marlene's OTP. Everyone on the show has made it clear through the story they told and edits they choose that they think Ezra/Aria is creepy. It's just the side piece to keep the tweens invested. Sucks to be Lucy and Ian. 

[Sakura12]

No one said Jenna's an innocent victim. But it bothers me when people say Jenna was injured or slapped because, rapist. If that's the not the reason that happened then that's not an excuse for Hanna and Alison. They did it for themselves. Also Caleb deserved the slap, not Jenna especially since the Liars wanted Caleb to do the exact same thing Jenna was having him do.

 

The guys on this show get away with so much and we're supposed to think of them as good guys. While the girls are shown to always be shady bitches. 

[mercfan3]

Really? We're supposed to think of them as good guys? Garrett, Ian, Wilden, Byron, Hanna's dad, Mr. Hastings..I don't see any good men in this town. It's rare to find decent guys in this town, that's why there are so many lesbians. (I mean seriously ladies, here are your options..date a creepy teacher pedophile, date a creepy cop pedophile, date a creepy lacross coach pedophile, or date Emily Fields. Not a tough decision..) 

 

Honestly, I think this cast is full of well developed well rounded female characters...and crappy one dimensional male characters. Toby and Ezra have gotten away with things. But I think anyone over the age of 15 views them both as creepy and awful. The show redeemed them both so quickly it honestly makes me think it wasn't the story they wanted to tell. (In fact, Troian said that they weren't allowed to tell the story they wanted to tell with Toby.) The show writers can say what they want, but when I watch the show..I see two girls forgiving guys in their lives for doing awful things to them, because of character flaws within themselves. (Spencer's need to feel loved and have her safety net. Aria's need to avoid her problems and have her own escape.) Both men, despite how awful the relationship dynamics are, have always provided each girl with what they want. 

 

Caleb was actually redeemed. And has actually been a good guy ever since. New detective is a good guy. Emily's dad is a good guy. Notice MK gave one a heart condition (and he's never on the show) and tried to eternally curse the other. 

 

Lucas is sympathetic, but his friendzone act with Hanna makes him unlikable for me. Still, he's not like the rest of the creeps. And Noel Kahn has actually been a pretty decent guy. Oh and I guess Mike is fine too. But he's not a "quality guy"

 

I mean, even the not really named male characters are bad. The principal harassed Aria a bit over her brother. Aria was slut shamed by a bunch of dudes. Emily's ex boyfriend attacked her. 

 

This is just a female centric show, and the male characters are flat and mostly not good. The only exception was Caleb, who Marlene wanted to ship off to a different show. Meanwhile, you have incredibly interesting female characters who are different shades of grey. None of them have gotten to the point where they weren't redeemable, with the exception of Jenna (for me), but even with her..she's not like the guys where she is completely evil and disgusting. There's a lot of depth to her character. (Heck, I could write a book on Aria..) 

 

For me with Jenna, it's not a "because rapist" thing..it's just a lack of sympathy for the character. She's a complex character, and there is a lot of grey about her. But what she did is worse than anything Toby or Ezra or Alison have done. I don't care that Hanna slapped her. Jenna hired someone to spy on the girls. That's worth a slap. (regardless of whether the girls were going to do the same thing.)  Caleb should have been slapped too, but remember Hanna made him work for her forgiveness. If I wasn't so happy Shana was dead, I might have felt sympathy for her this past episode..(I wasn't upset for Emily either..) 

[Sugarsprinkles]

Saw this on Twitter.  I didn't notice it at all during the episode. During the A tag at the end there's a mannequin with the Black Window's veil, dress, and gloves on it. PLL Big A Twitter

[lorikauai]

I forgot about the Jenna/Caleb thing. Actually now that we know that Ali was alive Jenna's attempts to spy on their cellphone communication make sense. I would want to know if my nemesis who blinded me was really dead or faked her death. It's surely better than Ezra's book excuse.

Edited July 11, 2014 by lorikauai

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I kind of want the A team to be taking orders from a person they've never seen (probably because she's wearing a mask of someone else face on top of someone elses face on top of her own face while wearing a black veil) to torture the Liars and Alison

Ooh now I hope that A+ is really Corinne Foxworth living in the mansion next door with her creepy butler cousin!

[Sakura12]

I meant the male love interests get away with so much. But now that I think about it the older men dating teenagers don't actually get in trouble for it, so yeah they got away with it, while the girls get arrested for having a shovel. 

 

We have Ezra who has been spying on Aria for 2 years while doing nothing to stop her friends from being tortured by A and Toby who joined the A team to lie and spy on Liars, sending Spencer to mental hospital. Caleb is probably the only decent one but he's only there because of Jenna the girl that hates them. So Jenna played unintentional matchmaker, maybe Hanna should be thanking her over slapping her. 

 

Jenna deserves to be slapped but not over the Liars doing the exact same thing to her. If it was for Toby, i'd be fine with it but it wasn't. Caleb is the one that deserved the slap, I know Hanna made him work for it as she should, he's the one that betrayed her, not Jenna. Although that looks so strange now, since Toby and Ezra who have done far worse are instanta forgiven with no fallout. Almost all the ships on this show are so disgusting I don't know how anyone ships anyone. Plus I think the love interest parts are the most boring part of the entire show, the girls friendship is the one and only ship for me. 

 

As for Jenna, I don't feel sorry for her, but I love her because she is the bitch that scares everyone just by standing there. She's mysterious because she gets people (including her rape victim) to drop everything and follow her until death. To me Jenna's allure is so much stronger than Alison's. 

Edited July 11, 2014 by Sakura12

[cuddlingcrowley]

I meant the male love interests get away with so much. But now that I think about it the older men dating teenagers don't actually get in trouble for it, so yeah they got away with it, while the girls get arrested for having a shovel.

We have Ezra who has been spying on Aria for 2 years while doing nothing to stop her friends from being tortured by A and Toby who joined the A team to lie and spy on Liars, sending Spencer to mental hospital.

 

 

Although that looks so strange now, since Toby and Ezra who have done far worse are instanta forgiven with no fallout. Almost all the ships on this show are so disgusting I don't know how anyone ships anyone. Plus I think the love interest parts are the most boring part of the entire show, the girls friendship is the one and only ship for me.

The show writers can say what they want, but when I watch the show..I see two girls forgiving guys in their lives for doing awful things to them, because of character flaws within themselves. (Spencer's need to feel loved and have her safety net. Aria's need to avoid her problems and have her own escape.) Both men, despite how awful the relationship dynamics are, have always provided each girl with what they want.

 

 

You've put it into words exactly what I've been feeling about Spencer and Aria in regards to their decision to insta-forgive their shitty boyfriends. It will forever amuse me that Hanna, with her identity issues and daddy issues, is the one who seems to best at drawing boundaries and has a more than decent sense of self worth. Thank you Ashley (Hanna's Mom)!

 

This whole thing really changed how I look at Spencer and Aria, to a lesser a degree. Spencer went from being 12 kinda of awesome, flaws and all, to someone who seems incredibly emmotionaly fragile and who uses Toby as her crutch because when it comes to her family she either believes they believe she's a murder or she thinks one of them is. I think that's unfortunate but at the same time I'm not going to say it's bad writting because it makes a whole lot of sense.

 

I also completely buy that Aria's desire to escape is so large that she'd risk getting herself killed or worst to do it.

 

This reminds of a recent interview made by Rob Thomas in regards to wanting to write Veronica Mars as a very flawed heroine. He says the audience responded to it by wanting her to overcome her flaws eventually but Rob Thomas says he always worked to maintain those flaws and still keep the character evolving (i'm really paraphrasing here, folks). So that makes me wonder if my craving that these flaws the PLL have depicted in regards to their love interests be adressed and overcome isn't something I've been conditioned to want and that maybe it would be more original and more true to the genre that the story goes on and they keep getting developed not because of the need to overcome those flaws but in spite of them.

 

At this point, it does feel like some of them have some severely ingrained issues that would take a lifetime to overcome

 

This is just a female centric show, and the male characters are flat and mostly not good.

 

 

Strangelly enough, I don't think I would have been able to get into this show when I was a teenager for exactly that reason. My main draw to shows used to be ships and cute boys and I would have gotten none in this show (and no, no version of me would ever have ever shipped Ezria or Spoby). So, thank God PLL aired now when I was old enough to crave and appreciate complex female characters. TV is improving on that with baby steps but it's still very hard to find interesting female characters and nearly impossible to find them with as much variety as PLL makes them and for this target audience as well.

 

So I feel the terrible couples and terrible guys is sort of the price I have to pay to get the worth-while stuff. You won't believe what a joy it was to go from having to put up with Elena Gilbert as a lead character to meeting the PLL who were so very intentionally flawed and very likable from the get go.

 

 

ETA:

 

About the current issues being raised on the thread, my two cents it that I'm personally loving how Ali has been written and I have no problem with how lesbian friendly Rosewood supposedly is. It definitely makes PLL different from pretty much any other show out there so for that I approve. If I want to watch white straight men writting other white straight men acting like interesting female characters and gay characters are mythical creatures I'll go back to torturing myself with watching supernatural.

Edited July 11, 2014 by cuddlingcrowley

[DigitalCount]

But Elena was awesome at the beginning, whereas I really thought these girls sucked out loud. It's like opposing trajectories, because now I can actually watch these people without burning my eyes out, but Elena is currently horrible.

 

Two things:

 

1) I actually thought the "toxic people get broomed--OH HAI JENNA LET ME SAVE YOU" was really well done. How sad it is that this is such a realistic outcome, but it was pretty good writing IMO.

2) On the other hand, Lucas' character suffered in this episode. I kind of got the feeling he was intentionally getting Hanna drunk, and I feel that's a bit too far and doesn't seem true to the character. Of course he'd provide a distraction. But getting her as drunk as possible has some subtext that is a bit-too "bitter frat boy" and not really all that "slightly refurbished hipster" if that makes any sense. It was icky, for lack of a better term.

[Sakura12]

You've put it into words exactly what I've been feeling about Spencer and Aria in regards to their decision to insta-forgive their shitty boyfriends. It will forever amuse me that Hanna, with her identity issues and daddy issues, is the one who seems to best at drawing boundaries and has a more than decent sense of self worth. Thank you Ashley (Hanna's Mom)!

 

I think you hit the nail on the head, Hanna grew up with a mother that is there for her and listens to her so she's learned to respect herself a little better than her friends who might as well not have parents since they are never home. Ashley is always there when Hanna needs her and will do anything to protect her daughter. Hanna's probably the most well adjusted liar even if she gets a drinking problem. From what we've been shown we know Ashley will notice and be there to help her though it. I hope that is not ruined, they are my second favorite relationship after the four liars. 

 

Spencer used to be my favorite, but I've lost a lot of respect for her when she took Toby back. Aria's a lost cause imo, but Spencer should be stronger. Spencer and Aria are in almost abusive relationship and with their issues they don't need them. They don't provide them what they need, they provide them with what they need to stay away from. There are other people in the world. When the show ends I hope neither couple is still together. They both deserve so much better. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

Sakura12 I disagree with nothing and your hopes are my hopes! Spencer "should be stronger" is a recurring thought for me while watching PLL since mid s3 and I've washed my hands so many times of Aria, I hope I've learned for good this time around.

 

DigitalCount we'll agree to disagree on Elena, but I want to adress this:
 

2) On the other hand, Lucas' character suffered in this episode. I kind of got the feeling he was intentionally getting Hanna drunk, and I feel that's a bit too far and doesn't seem true to the character. Of course he'd provide a distraction. But getting her as drunk as possible has some subtext that is a bit-too "bitter frat boy" and not really all that "slightly refurbished hipster" if that makes any sense. It was icky, for lack of a better term.

 

 

I think that's an interesting take on what was going on with Lucas during the past episode.  I have a lot of trouble devoting much thought to Lucas after his "friendzone act with Hanna" (like another poster put it) but I'll go out on limb here and say I believe his getting Hanna drunk was just another way to ensure Hanna would be distracted and wouldn't be able to be there for Ali. I know, what has this show become that that's considered harmless? but I think that was the extent of it. I don't think he intended to cause Hanna any harm (and didn't) or for Travis to break up with her or anything more nefarious which I think would have been out of character but who the hell can be sure?

 

This is off-topic but not really: has anyone given Reign a go? I really didn't want to given CW but one day I, hum, tripped and watched the pilot and then binge-watched the whole season and if hystorical accuracy isn't nearly as important to you as an increasingly awesome and a pretty damn intelligent lead female character who gives the most inspiring speeches which makes you just want to swear you allegiance to her right there (*cof*) and a truly fabulous bunch of supporting characters and all the pretty your eyes can possibly want to feest on, I'd definitely recommend it you. The aesthetics and the variety of well developed and charismatic characters reminded me of PLL. Also, they've killed the love triangle mid-season 1. So no damned love triangle!

Edited July 11, 2014 by cuddlingcrowley

[emma675]

 

On the other hand, Lucas' character suffered in this episode. I kind of got the feeling he was intentionally getting Hanna drunk, and I feel that's a bit too far and doesn't seem true to the character. Of course he'd provide a distraction. But getting her as drunk as possible has some subtext that is a bit-too "bitter frat boy" and not really all that "slightly refurbished hipster" if that makes any sense. It was icky, for lack of a better term.

I keep forgetting to talk about Lucas, but his behavior and motivations this season have me puzzled. I knew he and Hanna have had their issues, but I never thought he would work with Mona in a way that would hurt Hanna or put her in dangerous situations. And what was up with his party for a girlfriend that never materialized??

 

 

Also, this may be board on boards (I'm a TWoP refugee), but it is possible to stop using shipper names or at least spell them out? I'm not hip to the kid's lingo today so all of this "Emison, Arianna, Spoby" stuff leaves me baffled sometimes.

[Sakura12]

I hate most shipper names so I almost always spell them out, except for Ezzzzzaria only because I like adding the extra zzzzz's. 

 

I've been hearing good things about Reign but I'm wary about starting another CW the show. After last season I'm giving up on the only one I do watch. So I might wait another season to see if Reign is still getting the praise before I watch it. 

 

I think Lucas is in over his head, he wants to stop but he was treated horribly by Alison and he's probably scared of the coven that is Mona, Jenna and Melissa. I also don't think it's his fault Hanna was drinking, he wasn't doing anything to stop her, but I think she planned on getting drunk because Caleb's back. Lucas' job was just to keep Hanna away from Alison.

[FurryFury]

I still haven't seen any of season 5 episodes, but from what I understand, it's finally clear this show has descended into nothing more but fan pandering all the time? I mean, even after everything I still expected Aria to wait at least a season to get back together with Ezra, and for Emily/Alison to happen only much later (and yes, I absolutely despise both ships). I should probably forget about this show altogether. But damn, I still love Spencer and Hanna and the whole crazy Hastings family are great :( That's a real conundrum.

 

2Sakura, I read about Reign and decided not to bother, so far, it seems a typical CW soap all about ships. But then, I got sucked into The 100, so what do I know...

[lorikauai]

I think Lucas' job was just to get Hanna to the party. She got drunk all on her own. Actually in the first season MonA never had to work very hard. Most of the bad stuff that happened to the Liars was a result of them freaking out and doing something stupid.

[jjjmoss]

As a gay male, when I was in high school I had multiple boyfriends including 3 men that I went to school with.  I had plenty of LGBT friends who also had multiple boyfriends or girlfriends.

As a gay male, when I was in high school I had no boyfriend and there were 3 out males I went to school with, two with whom I barely if ever talked. I had one LGBT friend whose only love interests were at least twice his age and who he met online. And I live in California, not the sticks. So what's one's experience is not necessarily typical.

And, is there a single LGBT male on this show? If not, that makes the arguable excess on the female side odder.

[Derenaspoby]

Wow, everyone just keeps dissing the ships all the time? I honestly don't see what Toby did wrong, and that's why I still love Spoby. Toby's always tried to be there for Spencer, and I think we can sort of assume that Mona didn't let Toby try to explain things to Spencer. He didn't really have much of a choice for when Spencer went to Radley.

And there are still good guys on the show, but Marlene makes sure none of the good guys end up with the girls, AKA Jake and Travis. Jake was a nice, sweet, caring, (hot) guy, and he made things easy for Aria, yet they shot him down and ended up putting knives in his punching bag and never telling us if he's okay. They're going to dump Travis off faster than lightning, I swear! Travis is a really good guy, and he and Hanna are adorable together, but Marlene is going to push Caleb right back into her arms.

I also don't understand why you all hate Toby yet adore ALISON DILAURENTIS!?!? It makes NO sense IMO. Toby did NOTHING compared to Alison. This whole A-Team game is BECAUSE OF ALISON. Yes, Toby let Spencer believe he was dead... But what about Ali!? Alison let them all—a whole town—believe she was dead for TWO YEARS, while Toby only let Spencer believe he was dead for like 3 days. Yet now Alison and the girls are BFFs again, and everyone loves her and ships her with Emily? Alison made Emily's life hell, played with her emotions, but Emison is this grand, amazing, loving ship??? Please explain this to me. It's really ironic when you adore Alison/ship Emison while you hate Spoby and Toby.

[Crim]

I knew he and Hanna have had their issues, but I never thought he would work with Mona in a way that would hurt Hanna or put her in dangerous situations. And what was up with his party for a girlfriend that never materialized??

His role was obviously to keep Hanna away from Ali, just as the Jenna look-alike did for Emily - no one had to bother to keep Aria away, as usual, because Aria. IMO it was implied the girlfriend was a lie, because Hanna's curiosity over her was the best bait to get her to the party. And I don't think his behavior at the party endangered or hurt Hanna in any way, especially as Travis was also there.

 

And, imo, it makes sense that Lucas works with Mona: Mona's sales pitch is all "strike at Ali first, before she walks all over us", and probably doesn't have the Liars in the crossfire. Lucas might even think he is protecting Hanna in the long run, because he knows how horrible Ali was for her too. Mona tried the same tactic with Paige, and when Paige turned her down she still thought she had a chance with Emily. We'll see if Paige changes her mind once she finds out Emily hooked up with Ali.

 

ETA: Answer to Toby issue taken to Spoby topic.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Crim

[lorikauai]

My issue with the ships is that they are a distraction from the main storyline. I like the bad characters. I like bad Ali. I like Jenna. I like Mona. I like A. They are what makes the show interesting to me. I actually liked watching evil Ezra, despite hating the Ezra/Aria ship from day 1. I don't watch PLL to see Dawson's Creek 2.0. As much as I enjoy the friendship between the 4 girls I wouldn't watch without A or someone trying to hurt them.

[Cranberry]

I also don't understand why you all hate Toby yet adore ALISON DILAURENTIS!?!? It makes NO sense IMO. Toby did NOTHING compared to Alison. This whole A-Team game is BECAUSE OF ALISON. Yes, Toby let Spencer believe he was dead... But what about Ali!? Alison let them all—a whole town—believe she was dead for TWO YEARS, while Toby only let Spencer believe he was dead for like 3 days. Yet now Alison and the girls are BFFs again, and everyone loves her and ships her with Emily? Alison made Emily's life hell, played with her emotions, but Emison is this grand, amazing, loving ship??? Please explain this to me. It's really ironic when you adore Alison/ship Emison while you hate Spoby and Toby.

 

Toby is a block of wood and Alison DiLaurentis is fun to watch. That's about it for me.

 

(Oh, and I in no way see Emily/Alison as a "grand, amazing, loving ship." I enjoy it because it's twisted and because we don't know just how much of it is real for Ali, if any. It's good TV.)

[Crim]

@Cranberry, and to think I wrote 2 paragraphs to cover what you said in one line. LOL.

 

 

 

My issue with the ships is that they are a distraction from the main storyline.

This. And some ships more than others at certain times (like Spencer/Toby right now) except Ezzzria, which was not only pointless for most of the show, but managed to consistently keep Aria away from any interesting story lines whatsoever. But since, and I quote, "This whole A-Team game is BECAUSE OF ALISON.", Ali's relationships are always relevant.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Crim

[AmandaPanda]

Re: Lucas and the party

 

I think Lucas is completely lying about the girlfriend. That was just something he made up to entice Hanna to come to the party. I can see where she would be a lot more likely to come because she wants to meet this new girl. As for the alcohol, Hanna probably started drinking pretty heavily all on her own after seeing Caleb. Lucas probably just saw that it was a way to be sure that she was there and distracted, so helped her out a bit. 

[Featherhat]

I honestly don't see what Toby did wrong, and that's why I still love Spoby. Toby's always tried to be there for Spencer, and I think we can sort of assume that Mona didn't let Toby try to explain things to Spencer. He didn't really have much of a choice for when Spencer went to Radley.

 

For me, one of the big things that Toby did wrong was never realise that his grand plan to "save Spencer" landed her in a mental institution. A situation that was barely addressed once Spencer also "joined" the A Team. His plan also involved psychologically and physically menacing Hanna with Dummies and who remembers what else during that time.  The big thing for me is that this was just forgotten and swept under the rug in a big romantic sex scene. At the very least he should have been more ashamed of his actions that supposedly inadvertently sent the love of his life there during his obsession with his dead mother dying at Radley.

 

Ezzzria getting back together is 100x even more inexplicable, but at least Aria was given a fuck weekend with a cute guy before forgiving him.

 

I think Ali/Emily was always going to happen once they decided to bring Ali back. It was too tempting an obsession of Emily's. I hope its going to be a crack tastic manipulationship because for the life of me I can't see it as healthy even with this so-called (and I hope not) reformed Ali.

 

No gay men in Rosewood? I guess because as said above, this is a show primarily about the relationships between women, even when those women are straight, even when they are mother and daughter (ok only Hanna and Ashley). Men primarily appear as love interests. It might make sense if one of the twists was not that a "creepy" guy was interested in Ali/underage girls/murder but was meeting a married man for sex (for example). A lot of people wondered if Aria's S2 friend Holden was gay before he was revealed to be a secret fight clubber. Mike was also a potential gay at one point but that's gone by the wayside. OTOH I'm not too sorry because there are a fair few shows that have gay men as regulars which almost never feature lesbians/bisexual women .

 

I did used to wonder if Ravenswood was going to have a gay teen to balanced Rosewood's lesbian dominance but they didn't go for anything like that in the original 10 order and never got the chance to show if they had anything planned for later. Personally by the end I wasn't holding out much hope of anything like that happening or anything not seen 10 times in other horror movies before.

[FAU]

 

Ezzzria getting back together is 100x even more inexplicable, but at least Aria was given a fuck weekend with a cute guy before forgiving him.

 

Given Ezra's blatant stalking/spying, his actions are much worse and at least we don't have to see Toby's stiff acting nearly as much as we have to stop and waste time for Ezria bs.

[Featherhat]

Given Ezra's blatant stalking/spying, his actions are much worse and at least we don't have to see Toby's stiff acting nearly as much as we have to stop and waste time for Ezria bs.

 

I agree the whole Ezra/Ezria plotline was BS because he supposedly freaked out when he realised Ali was 15 but had no problem bedding her 16 year old friend in order to capitalise on her death. Oh, sorry, he'd fallen in love with Aria by then maybe? That's actually creepier than him thinking Ali was 18 then regretting it and becoming obsessed by her murder, but supposedly it helps give him a pass. Yeah, I think he's actually worse, because he was an adult but they are both disgusting examples of relationships which this sometimes clever show likes to pretend are true love. (even when it seems likely that many of the cast and writers think otherwise but pretend for Promo reasons).  OTOH I think it was minimally more healthy for Aria to be allowed to actually be angry for while, which Spencer never was.

[FAU]

I agree the whole Ezra/Ezria plotline was BS because he supposedly freaked out when he realised Ali was 15 but had no problem bedding her 16 year old friend in order to capitalise on her death. Oh, sorry, he'd fallen in love with Aria by then maybe? That's actually creepier than him thinking Ali was 18 then regretting it and becoming obsessed by her murder, but supposedly it helps give him a pass. Yeah, I think he's actually worse, because he was an adult but they are both disgusting examples of relationships which this sometimes clever show likes to pretend are true love. (even when it seems likely that many of the cast and writers think otherwise but pretend for Promo reasons).  OTOH I think it was minimally more healthy for Aria to be allowed to actually be angry for while, which Spencer never was.

 

Yeah, the sex scene was just so out of place.

 

As for Aria, going back to Ezra and then the show trying to force the hero role makes it even more unhealthy, while she has Shana's death on her conscience.

[lion10]

I wonder if Alison is causing Mona to lose her mind?  The Liars constantly say that Mona's crazy but ever since she got out of prison, she's acted pretty normal.  But when Ali brought up how Mona hit Hanna with a car, Mona seemed to crack for a moment when she said "I'm all better now.  They said so".  Is that crazy always under the surface?

[mercfan3]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Hanna grew up with a mother that is there for her and listens to her so she's learned to respect herself a little better than her friends who might as well not have parents since they are never home. Ashley is always there when Hanna needs her and will do anything to protect her daughter. Hanna's probably the most well adjusted liar even if she gets a drinking problem. From what we've been shown we know Ashley will notice and be there to help her though it. I hope that is not ruined, they are my second favorite relationship after the four liars. 

 

Spencer used to be my favorite, but I've lost a lot of respect for her when she took Toby back. Aria's a lost cause imo, but Spencer should be stronger. Spencer and Aria are in almost abusive relationship and with their issues they don't need them. They don't provide them what they need, they provide them with what they need to stay away from. There are other people in the world. When the show ends I hope neither couple is still together. They both deserve so much better. 

I think need is the wrong word..the better word is perhaps "Desire." Spencer desires a safety net, she made Toby her safety net..and he can do essentially anything he wants to her, and she'll forgive him. (Same for Aria and her need to escape.) 

 

These are unhealthy coping mechanisms, but traits both girls have. It's not really a coincidence that Hanna and Emily are better adjusted because they have better parents. (Ella isn't a bad parent, but she's exactly like Aria. When things get rough RUNAWAY. )

 

As much as Bamf Spencer is totally part of her character, this version is totally in character too. It makes her a whole person. I really love the way these four girls are written. It is nice to have such well thought out...lovable but tragically flawed, female characters. 

 

I'm caught between what others have said above..and wanting to have these two develop and get stronger and overcome these flaws..or wanting them to develop as characters in spite of these flaws..but if we keep the flaws..I'd like to use something other than boyfriends to make that point. But unfortunately, because of some of the target audience, that isn't going to happen. It's just sad because it hurts the story. 

[superman1204]

I think need is the wrong word..the better word is perhaps "Desire." Spencer desires a safety net, she made Toby her safety net..and he can do essentially anything he wants to her, and she'll forgive him. (Same for Aria and her need to escape.) 

 

These are unhealthy coping mechanisms, but traits both girls have. It's not really a coincidence that Hanna and Emily are better adjusted because they have better parents. (Ella isn't a bad parent, but she's exactly like Aria. When things get rough RUNAWAY. )

 

As much as Bamf Spencer is totally part of her character, this version is totally in character too. It makes her a whole person. I really love the way these four girls are written. It is nice to have such well thought out...lovable but tragically flawed, female characters. 

 

I'm caught between what others have said above..and wanting to have these two develop and get stronger and overcome these flaws..or wanting them to develop as characters in spite of these flaws..but if we keep the flaws..I'd like to use something other than boyfriends to make that point. But unfortunately, because of some of the target audience, that isn't going to happen. It's just sad because it hurts the story. 

Your analysis of Spencer, Aria, and their respective relationships is great.  I just have one problem, and that is I have a hard time telling what is intentional character development and what is just lazy writing.  For example, if Spencer were a real person, I would say without a doubt that she is using Toby as a support system because of how emotionally distant her family is.  The fact that at the end of season three, Spencer took Toby back with barely an explanation, and Toby did nothing to earn her trust back, is a perfect example of this relationship dynamic.  The only problem, is that whole situation could also be explained by the writers wanting to jump to the emotional reunion and then move on to a new storyline. 

 

I don't necessarily mind watching a show were two of the main character are in unhealthy long term relationships, but the problem with this show is the writers never acknowledge how bad these relationships are.  Look at Aria and Ezra.  We had the EzrA storyline, but that was quickly resolved and forgotten (it was like three weeks in Rosewood time!).  The only other hint that Ezra and Aria are not a perfectly normal couple is the song that played during their most recent sex scene.  Other than that, everything that happened was written/directed to suggest Ezra and Aria are true love.  Seriously how does a father, who is trying to stop his sixteen year old daughter from having sex with her teacher, come off as a bad guy.

 

Additional, I could see myself being ok with Ezra and Aria if they tried to frame it in a healthier light.  Maybe address the fact that both Aria and Ezra entered into this relationship because they have hugely unhealthy relationships with their parents.  They could even have the two work through these relationships issues together.  Another option is having Ezra go back to school for a doctorate (I think we are meant to think he is an amazing writer).  It would reduce the general weirdness of the relationship if they could get away from the whole student/teacher dynamic.  Instead the writers feel the need to make decisions that only reinforce how wrong that relationship really is.

 

To summarized, I have nothing against Toby/Spencer or Ezra/Aria in general, it's just the writers feel the need to make the relationships feel as unhealthy as possible, without ever acknowledging that there is something wrong.  This makes me really hesitant to read too much into Spencer and Aria's characters based on their relationships, because everything they do could simply be to keep the shippers happy.  I honestly wish the writers/directors/producers would just committee to an idea of how they want to depict these relationships because everything you said made Toby/Spencer or Ezra/Aria seem interesting, I just want to knew if that really is the story that was being told.

Edited July 12, 2014 by superman1204

[mercfan3]

Your right. It could totally just be laziness. 

 

I think I give the benefit of the doubt to the writers because of how well they have developed the characters and other relationships. Not only that, but their reactions to their boyfriends are in line with how they act in other aspects of their life.

 

I would love to see them ditch their men and just use the power of Team Sparia to get over their issues. But despite the logic of the two couples, they won't break up because they are the two most popular ships. 

[Derenaspoby]

Do you guys even know what an abusive relationship is? Spoby and Ezria are not abusive relationships, or even borderline abusive relationships. I don't like Ezria or support it in any way, but they're not abusive...

Spencer going to Radley was not entirely Toby's fault, first of al. Toby's "death" was the breaking point, and it was a plot from Mona. If he suddenly jumped out and said "I have to save Spencer from going to Radley!" they could have ended up dead if the A-team found out. The A-team could have hurt Spencer even more if they knew Toby was faking it.

I agree that her forgiveness to Toby was very rushed, and they should have shown the apology, but it's implied they did talk about it, and agreed to no longer keep secrets from each other (4x02). In what way does Toby emotionally or physically abuse Spencer? Call it a boring relationship if you want, but it's not abusive. I know I can't change your mind and make you a diehard Spoby shipper, but you're calling them abusive when they're not. Toby doesn't force Spencer to forgive him. He hopes she will. Ezra hopes Aria will. He's not going to say "You shouldn't forgive me", because he wants her to!

And he doesn't hit her or attack her, so it's not physical abuse, either. He doesn't pressure Spencer into forgiving him. Spencer has screwed up plenty of times in their relationship. She's lied to him and shut him out so much.

So what if they lean on each other? They comfort each other and try to be there for one another. I don't see the unhealthy part of Spoby. Maybe Spencer forgave Toby because she TRUSTS him. They had an extremely serious relationship, which isn't like most high school "let's hold hands and kiss" relationships, which is probably why they developed a serious amount of trust and have grown very close to each other. Yes, she forgave him quickly, but that doesn't mean he's a terrible boyfriend. It was Spencer's choice to forgive him.

[jjjmoss]

OTOH I'm not too sorry because there are a fair few shows that have gay men as regulars which almost never feature lesbians/bisexual women .

Mmm, I guess it just doesn't feel this way to me because the only gay male character on TV right now who I actually like is on Orphan Black, which of course features more lesbians/bisexual women as major characters than LGBT men.

Most of the rest are awful and irritating.

 

While PLL has many issues, the way it's dealt with Emily's sexuality is one of the aspects that's the strongest. It reminds me of Dawson's Creek's Jack McPhee and Ugly Betty's Justin Suarez - two other shows that failed in many ways, but shone in that respect unlike the rest of TV - and I think PLL would deal it with the same level of honesty, sensitivity, and heightened overdramatic hijinks. Bonus points if it's Noel Kahn.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

The only problem, is that whole situation could also be explained by the writers wanting to jump to the emotional reunion and then move on to a new storyline.

 

Could be explained? More like "must be explained". :) They might as well have put up a sign saying "Toby is good now, let's all forget about the TobiAs fiasco. It's not just Spencer who completely refused to blame Toby or ask him any questions about his involvement with the A-team. Basically it's a case of bad writing. 

 

Not that I agree with the notion that Spencer has such a great need for a safety net that it would trump her desire to defeat A and all of A's allies, mind you. I don't even believe it for Aria, let alone Spencer. I think this is just making excuses for the writers.

 

 

But since, and I quote, "This whole A-Team game is BECAUSE OF ALISON.", Ali's relationships are always relevant.

 

Relevant to what exactly? The mystery aspect of the show is just as much of a mess than any of the badly written relationships, if you ask me. Personally, my enjoyment of a scene has nothing to with whether it's relevant to the main plot. For instance, the one time Ashley bored me to tears was when she involved in the Wilden murder trial. While I love most of her scenes that have nothing to do with A.

[dohe]

As a gay male, when I was in high school I had no boyfriend and there were 3 out males I went to school with, two with whom I barely if ever talked. I had one LGBT friend whose only love interests were at least twice his age and who he met online. And I live in California, not the sticks. So what's one's experience is not necessarily typical.

And, is there a single LGBT male on this show? If not, that makes the arguable excess on the female side odder.

Each experience is unique.  However plenty of LGBT individuals have several same sex romances in their high school years just as there are those LGBT individuals that don't.  We each have a different story.

 

I used to watch a show called United States of Tara.  Marshall, a gay teen, was one of the main characters.  Marshall had two gay male schoolmates.  His family had two neighbors move in who were a same sex male couple.  That is at least 5 gay male characters in a 1/2 hour show which had a third of the PLL episodes.  United States of Tara did not owe the viewer lesbian representation* nor was it excessive that there were several gay male characters as Marshall's romantic feelings were a focus and gay adult couples exist.

 

To state PLL is excessive in it's depiction of women who love women not only seems without basis to me but is a discussion I really feel uncomfortable with.  It reminds me of my Mom complaining there are so many gay men on this show when I watched United States of Tara with her.  Also PLL does not owe gay male representation.  It's primary focus, along with it's mysteries, are women's romances whether they be with men or women.  These women are the focal point. 

 

BTW, are you not a Shameless fan?  I think their handling of their many gay male characters is well done.  Mickey finally coming out and expressing his love of Ian this latest season was terrific. 

 

*Yes Buck entered a relationship with a woman but Buck identified as a straight male. 

Edited July 12, 2014 by dohe