S04.E19: Jump The Shark

[Cee23]

Sam and Dean are on a hunting trip when they receive a call from an Adam Milligan, who is trying to find John Winchester. They discover that Adam was conceived 19 years ago when his mother fell in love with John Winchester.

YOU GUYS!!!!!!! I feel so lame because I stopped watching this show after season 3. Now I'm catching up and I just watched this episode and ugh, the feels! And no one wants to discuss it with me because you know, it's old, they're over it! Adam was cute. It was sad.

Did I do the formatting right and everything?

[7kstar]

Adam's story is sad, he is introduced to create some jealously and then killed before Sam has a chance to help him. 

 

Poor Dean has another brother that gets the attention over him.  Then his brother gets to play baseball with his dad.  The downside, because they didn't know about the supernatural, they are left defenseless and killed. 

 

I'm sure this was suppose to prove to Sam, that growing up in a hunter's life was better than being totally unprepared and killed before your time.  It's interesting that in Nightmare, season 1 that Sam finally acknowledges his Dad not being such a terrible Dad and once again trying to defend his father's actions to Dean.  I haven't watched in a while but I think that Dean felt the betrayal more than Sam.  I believe we were suppose to see how much alike Sam and John are and no matter how much Dean tries to step into his father's shoes, his personality just won't let him go all the way.

[catrox14]

Oh gosh. This episode KILLED me. 

 

It was awful for Dean. I mean when you consider that fucking John Winchester essentially left his son to raise his other son when he went hunting, but then find out that some of that time was actually with his OTHER family?  Oh my gods.  But this face of Dean's when Adam asks what did they do on Dean's birthday?  Pretty much sums up everything for Dean here.

 

 

And yet, he still puts his own anger, hurt and justifiable resentment to the side to help Adam. Only to find he's been dead all along. 

 

"You are more like Dad than I will ever be"

"I'll take that as a compliment"

"You take it however you want"

 

Yup, everything's changed now.

 

 

But Dean skulking about the airducts and the mausoleum and then climbs his way out of the mausoleum with the high bar manuever?  All manner of hot. Athletic!Dean FTW

Edited July 2, 2014 by catrox14

[Zanne]

Athletic!Dean FTW

 

 

This calls for an Athletic!Dean picspam. I wish I knew how to make one!

[mertensia]

This is a good episode except for the lousy first aid at the end.

Dean's conversation with the mausoleum guy is a very nice bit as is the whole mausoleum scene. Also that scene in the air vents when he sees all that blood and realizes that Kate is truly dead.

I find the whole dynamic between the three of them interesting. Dean wants to do as John wants- shield Adam from the hunting world (and Dean himself doesn't want anyone but real adults to be hunting. Adam here comes under "little brother" and is not an adult.) Sam is enamored of the idea of being a big brother and being the expert and teaching.

[kimrey]

This episode had some great moments, but I still hate, hate, hate that they introduced a half-brother into the story.

[DittyDotDot]

I love this episode mostly for the quiet. The show used to allow entire scenes to play without any dialogue trust their audience to follow along more. Scenes like Dean crawling through those ducts and then later in the crypt looking around at stuff and finding the little tunnel and then all the stuff with him locked in the tombs and then getting out. They would use those quiet scenes to build the tension rather than needing to have someone to fight with throughout the scene and needing to tell us everything that was happening rather than showing us. I guess I just feel like they thought I was smarter back in the day and now I sometimes feel like they think I'm a complete idot.

 

Plus, I love the big brother/little brother/middle brother relationship bits.

 

But, maybe I just love it because every time they play Rock Paper Scissors on this show it amuses me way more than it has a right to. I am not advocating that they need to do this every episode, however, less is more and this way it's kinda special.

[catrox14]

I think the quietness of these early episodes had everything to do with Kim Manners and his fingerprints. Unfortunately Kim passed away before this was filmed but this felt exactly like  a Kim Manners episode. I thought Misha came close with Mother's Little Helper with a quiet tone with extended scenes. 

[Cee23]

Gah, I agree. Dean broke my heart when he saw the photo of John and Adam. I'm sorry, I will always think John was a POS father. It's interesting that Adam was shielded from the hunting life, while Sam and Dean were pretty much thrust into it. It was a heartbreaking episode but at the same time I was so shocked and angry...or something. It felt like a cop out. I would have liked to see the boys have a relationship with their brother and it could have provided more interesting story material but it was like "Here's your brother...jk, psych!"

Dean crawling through the ducts was everything!

[catrox14]

@Cee23, don't feel bad. I didn't watch any of this show until last fall. Seriously. I can't even believe what I've missed out on for 8 freaking years. I powered through 9 freaking seasons. And I've watched each episode at least twice.

 

But I'm not obsessed....

[Cee23]

@Cee23, don't feel bad. I didn't watch any of this show until last fall. Seriously. I can't even believe what I've missed out on for 8 freaking years. I powered through 9 freaking seasons. And I've watched each episode at least twice.

 

But I'm not obsessed....

Hahaha, I already can't wait to be caught up so I can rewatch the good stuff. I saw that it was on Netflix so I thought "Ok, I will finally catch up!" I have been trying to stay fit so I told myself I could only watch episodes when I'm on the elliptical. Well, I've lost 12lbs marathoning this show. I can't get enough!

[catrox14]

If only I could watch whilst swimming!

[DittyDotDot]

This episode could have been such a miss with the whole we-have-a-brother-that-we-never-knew-about thing, but I think they pull it off and it actually makes a certain amount of sense. I've been kinda hard on Loflin and Dabb, but I think they actually wrote a good one here. Plus, they made fun of themselves when doing it, which is one of the things the show used to do well.

 

So, I think I could watch Dean Winchester climb around heating ducks till the cows come home.

 

In fact, I think I could watch Dean Winchester skulk around a mausoleum till the cows come home.

And, I think I could watch Dean Winchester crawl through little tunnels in said mausoleum till the cows come home.

Also, I think I could watch Dean Winchester skulk around another mausoleum muttering to himself, shooting at stuff and then stacking caskets and climbing on them and breaking a skylight and doing gymnastics to get himself out of said second mausoleum till the cows come home.

 

I know I pointed out the quiet stuff up thread, but seriously that whole sequence was almost four minutes long and the only dialogue was "sloppy joe" and two "son of a bitch"es. They didn't cut away, but used the camera and Jensen to effectively keep the tension and pace going throughout. This episode feels very old-school Supernatural to me. Dark and creepy with a creative twist on a classic urban legend monster. Phil Sgriccia really stuck the director's landing here, IMO, and turned into a nice tribute to Kim Manners. 

[catrox14]

Yup. Word to your whole post DDD.  I love Jensen's silent work here so much. One of the reasons why I love Lazarus Rising is the 6 minute opening sequence and for me this sequence matches that. Jensen's silent acting is second to none. He gives Dean so much internal life and his face is so wonderful with believable expressions that I just could watch this and Lazarus Rising on loop forever.

 

My favorite moment of the silent skulking is when Dean first starts crawling through the tubes and Dean just shakes his head and it flops down as if to say "What the fuck am I even doing here". Just all the love for this episode and that sequence.

[Demented Daisy]

heating ducks

 

 

What's a heating duck?  ;-)  I have this weird visual image of Dean crawling around, in between, and over a bunch of huge plastic ducks.

[DittyDotDot]

Hee! Right, I'm pretty sure that's what happened--Dean climbed around inside of some plastic, yellow ducks looking for Adams dead mother!  Stupid typo...heating ducts. I'm sick today, please take pity on me.

 

No, actually it's auto correct...that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Plus, did I mention I'm sick? ;)

[catrox14]

You guys really quack me up.....

 

 

 

 

I'll see myself out

[Demented Daisy]

Wocka wocka wocka!

[DittyDotDot]

My favorite moment of the silent skulking is when Dean first starts crawling through the tubes and Dean just shakes his head and it flops down as if to say "What the fuck am I even doing here". Just all the love for this episode and that sequence.

 

There's a funny outtake of this on the S4 gag reel where Jensen says he's getting too old for this. It's very cute!

[rue721]

I watched this last night, for some reason. Some great stuff that I don't think has been mentioned yet:

 

-- When the guys meet Adam for the first time, at the restaurant. I liked how Dean was all rude to the waitress and Sam kept giving him the side-eye. And I liked watching Dean put together his little trap:  dumping the regular water into the plant and putting holy water into the glass, throwing the regular silverware on the floor and replacing it with real silver. When he cocks the gun under the table, it always reminds me of the Greedo v. Han Solo showdown in Star Wars, it always makes me smile and warms the cockles of my yes-I-was-obsessed-with-Star-Wars-as-a-child heart. (I also love that, in the S4 premiere, Sam's fake name was Wedge Antilles. And that when Bobby was like, wtf? Dean just said, "what don't I know about that kid." LOL. First of all, I liked the continued Luke/Han thing going on there with calling Sam "kid," and second of all, I find it completely adorable that Sam was a big enough Star Wars dork that he was babbling about Wedge Antilles to his older brother. LOL). Anyway, that diner scene just has so much tension, even knowing that Adam isn't going to get caught. Dean looks like steam is about to come out of his ears the whole time.

 

-- I loved the blocking, especially in the motel room and nearer the end, at Adam's house. Dean was constantly a little too far away in the background, just glowering. I liked how, when Dean and Sam had their fight in the motel room in front of Adam, iIrc, Sam didn't even stand up. Imo it made it really clear that Sam understood exactly what was going on with Dean...and that they weren't just blustering, I guess? Sam not taking Dean stomping around seriously as a (physical) challenge/fight made it seem more like they were having actual emotions rather than the show was trying to milk some extra angst from the situation, imo.

 

ETA:

Also, wtf was that speech that Sam gave Adam and then Dean said their father had given Sam? So messed up.

Edited March 4, 2015 by rue721

[Dobian]

ETA:

Also, wtf was that speech that Sam gave Adam and then Dean said their father had given Sam? So messed up.

 

The one about the lonely life of the monster hunter, no relationships, no connections.  I agree that their dad was a POS, he could have found a stable home for them to live in so they weren't always on the road.  And now he's Negan, what a monster!  Seriously though, the problem he had was that he knew someone was coming for Sam one day, so he had to keep them close and teach them to defend themselves.

[DittyDotDot]

Awww, this episode. Rest in peace, Kim Manners. 

[GirlyGeek]

This episode is so whip-lashy for me.  
I love John Winchester.  Won't apologize for it.  I do hate how his character, which wasn't stellar to begin with, got trashed over the years.  It was really unnecessary, IMO.

So, I think its both plausible and highly probable that John had other kid(s).  Like Sam said, he wasn't a monk, and Mary had been dead for 7 or 8 years before Adam was conceived?  
But watching Dean soak all this up is genuinely heartbreaking.  He already feels like he losing/lost Sam- they're barely speaking and certainly not on brotherly terms.  And Dean's scared to death of whatever is going on with Sam.  John's been dead for years.  Dean just found out he started the Apocalypse.  And here's Adam, innocent half brother.  Having all the "Dad moments" that Dean never had and desperately wanted, like when Adam says John taught him how to drive in the Impala

Spoiler

just reminded me of the scene in Baby where Dean tells Sam that he has a dream every couple of months of John teaching him to drive at a normal age and him pulling into their family home... guh

Dean feels so twisted up inside already, he can't play nice with this new revelation and he's unraveling slowly.  I'm gearing up for the last few eps of this season... its pretty brutal

[Myrelle]

I love this episode. To me, it is one of the most under-rated episodes of the series. Dean in full-on hunter mode does things to me and we got so much of him in this one. But the heartache. Oh, all the heartache, that culminated with Adam's funeral pyre and where John and Sam finally fell off the pedestal that Dean had them both on for most of his life and up to this episode in the series.

And the monsters were scary.

Athletic!Dean FTW!! And how on earth did he make simply looking under a car for the baddie into such a HAWT! move. And in that trench coat, too!! I always rewind that part. ;-)

And we again see hints of how brutal HumanDean could be with the baddies when he was bashing in ZombieAdam's head again and again and again and again and once more for good measure. And it looked like he was kind of on automatic there. YIKES. Disturbing. And we'd seen it before somewhat in Bloodlust and Children shouldn't Play with Dead Things and we'd see it again both when the Mark took over and again after the demon cure.

I've always loved how Jensen conveys a Dean who has been messed up in so many ways because of being raised as a hunter and especially in his almost automatic lack of emotional response to violence. This one was another that really brought that home, IMO. So yeah, just WOW. to all the wonderful Ackting in this one.

I just wish that they had never brought Adam back after this one.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Myrelle
spelling

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Athletic!Dean FTW!! And how on earth did he make simply looking under a car for the baddie into such a HAWT! move. And in that trench coat, too!! I always rewind that part. ;-)

Oh gosh! Yes. This is an underrated part of the episode. I go on about his silent acting whilst skulking in the Jeffries tubes and the mausoleum but thank you for reminding me of this great scene as well. 

[Hanahope]

This was a very emotional episode.  Between Dean and Sam realizing that their dad had a real 'family' with another woman and a son he did normal stuff with, that they could have had a more normal life and John knew how, but refused to do so with Sam and Dean, to ultimately losing the half brother they didn't know they had.  How devastating on all fronts.  Plus, for all they know , there could be more half-siblings. 

Dean was the boss in that mausoleum scene. 

[Katy M]

15 hours ago, Hanahope said:

 Plus, for all they know , there could be more half-siblings. 

Oh, I certainly hope not.

 

15 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Between Dean and Sam realizing that their dad had a real 'family' with another woman and a son he did normal stuff with,

I don't know if I'd call this a "real family."  As far as I could tell from this epi, he popped in a couple times of year.

I hated this episode. I think the only part I liked was that Adam turned out to be a ghoul so we wouldn't have to see him again.

[catrox14]

I have mixed feelings on this episode. 

I loved Dean's reactions throughout and I could watch Jensen crawl around that mausoleum til the cows come home.

[Katy M]

Yeah, OK, Dean's facial expressions were awesome as usual.  Especially when he finds Adam's body and realizes Sam's alone with something else.  And his emotions in the last scene are great. Sam's not so much, but, of course, he's at the height of his blood addiction.

The other really good part was the teaser.  Best jump scare of the series, IMO.

[catrox14]

I also crack up at Dean's reaction to losing Rock, Paper, Scissors.  Dean's face when he learned John took Adam to a baseball game for his birthday, KILLED ME.  Ugh, it was a mixture of hurt, anger and disgust.

[catrox14]

Here have some great Jensen in Jump the Shark

[bettername2come]

Dean sounds so betrayed that Adam got to go to a baseball game with John. Adam's acceptance of Sam and Dean's story is super suspicious. I like that Dean wanted to leave Adam out of this like their father had. I like Dean calling Sam out on his hypocrisy in trying to teach Adam how to hunt, although I do like seeing Sam trying to be a big brother and teach Adam everything he knows. I always like when they trash talk the monsters, even when it looks dire.  Ah, the monster hurt my beautiful Sam. Dean rescuing Sam is my favorite. Always will be. Even when he ends the episode by saying Sam is like their father, which is completely not a compliment, even if there are worse things to be. 

I miss just seeing John. Like, even though Jeffrey Dean Morgan isn't in this one, seeing him in previouslies and pictures means a lot. This was back when the show was consistent that John always wanted to protect his kids, that he did what he had to because he didn't think he had another choice. It was awful it was screwed up, but he loved his boys, dammit, and he tried and...I have way too many feelings about a character that's been dead eleven years. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I like Dean calling Sam out on his hypocrisy in trying to teach Adam how to hunt,

I understand what you are saying here, but I truly think that after "Afterschool Special" Sam has finally accepted and drunk the Kool-aide. For Sam, I don't think it's really hypocrisy, because I think at this point in the show, he does now believe that John did do the best that he could*. The process started after John's death, but Sam realizing that his going to college and leaving the family didn't make him happy after all in "Afterschool Special" (not that I didn't find that anvil / "lesson" fairly annoying), kind of finished the process to where Sam thinks he's doing the right thing by teaching GhoulAdam what he knows.

Perhaps the ironic thing is that Dean spent much of season 1 trying to convince Sam this very thing - i.e. that John just did what he thought was best for them and taught them all of these things to keep them safe - and now that Sam truly seems to believe it to an extent, Dean's changed his mind. Too late on that one Dean. Sammy's been battered into submission by the past few years, and has embraced the life - and the lie at this point.

* He'll start

Spoiler

questioning it a bit again and showing some of his previous John misgivings during season 5 in "Dark Side of the Moon,"

but at this point in the show, I think Sam really does believe it.

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I understand what you are saying here, but I truly think that after "Afterschool Special" Sam has finally accepted and drunk the Kool-aide. For Sam, I don't think it's really hypocrisy, because I think at this point in the show, he does now believe that John did do the best that he could*. The process started after John's death, but Sam realizing that his going to college and leaving the family didn't make him happy after all in "Afterschool Special" (not that I didn't find that anvil / "lesson" fairly annoying), kind of finished the process to where Sam thinks he's doing the right thing by teaching GhoulAdam what he knows.

Perhaps the ironic thing is that Dean spent much of season 1 trying to convince Sam this very thing - i.e. that John just did what he thought was best for them and taught them all of these things to keep them safe - and now that Sam truly seems to believe it to an extent, Dean's changed his mind. Too late on that one Dean. Sammy's been battered into submission by the past few years, and has embraced the life - and the lie at this point.

For me, Sam's behavior here shows me how much Sam isn't really Sam right now. It's not just the pro-hunting, but the willingness to use Adam as bait and his almost detached attitude towards finding out that John had another kid. Adam got to live the life Sam basically always wanted and Sam has really no reaction to that. 

I think it's an interesting contrast when

Spoiler

we meet the real Adam in Point of No Return and how differently Sam approaches Adam. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

For me, Sam's behavior here shows me how much Sam isn't really Sam right now. It's not just the pro-hunting, but the willingness to use Adam as bait and his almost detached attitude towards finding out that John had another kid. Adam got to live the life Sam basically always wanted and Sam has really no reaction to that. 

I think it's an interesting contrast when

  Reveal hidden contents

we meet the real Adam in Point of No Return and how differently Sam approaches Adam. 

I agree with this assessment. My main comment was that in his "not really Sam" mentality of season 4, Sam did think the ends justified the means in this situation. He wasn't being hypocritical in that, in my opinion, Sam thought that it was better to let Adam know the truth and be prepared - like John supposedly had done for them, according to Sam in season 4 - than not. I don't remember the details of Sam using Adam as bait - I don't revisit season 4 all that much - so you might be right that he was being hypocritical in that aspect.

As for Sam learning that Adam got to live the life he had always wanted and having no reaction, I wasn't as surprised by that. I've generally been of the opinion that Sam had pretty much decided that he didn't want a normal life anymore since as far back as season 2, and had actually found purpose in "making a difference" through hunting. This part of his opinion even

Spoiler

continued into season 5 - as illustrated by "Swap Meet." And it's even what Soulless Sam wanted to do (even without the helping people part) and was part of what kept hallucinating Sam centered in season 7. I actually found season 8 Sam's giving up hunting entirely out of character at that point, since I didn't buy that Sam would've been happy with just giving up rather than still trying to "make a difference." I thought that Sam in "The French Mistake" had explained his position well on that point. "We don't even mean the same thing here [in the alternate reality]," but I didn't think Carver took Sam's character changes into account in season 8.

So Sam not showing much interest or regret/envy concerning Adam's life wasn't that strange to me. That was what Sam "learned" from "Afterschool Special" a few episodes before: i.e. that he had been selfish and/or naive to want something different, and that his embracing the "family business" was part of growing up and being mature. I was somewhat annoyed by the anvils of that episode, but Sam was consistent at least in having "learned" that supposed lesson, and his attitude in "Jump the Shark" reflected that.

Of course it was also supposed to be part of the "crappy brother Sam / put upon brother Dean" theme the season had going and that I was completely put off by by this episode, but in light of "Afterschool Special's" anvils, that part actually made sense to me. Since Sam had concluded that he had been wrong not to embrace the family business and "grow up" earlier and that his going off on his own in the end hadn't made him happy, more mature, or helped him to fit in anywhere after all, he was basically skipping that disappointment for "Adam." So for me, that part wasn't hypocritical in that Sam really did think that teaching Adam to hunt was the right and responsible thing to do. The bait part of it might be different, since I don't remember the details there.

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for Sam learning that Adam got to live the life he had always wanted and having no reaction, I wasn't as surprised by that. I've generally been of the opinion that Sam had pretty much decided that he didn't want a normal life anymore since as far back as season 2, and had actually found purpose in "making a difference" through hunting.

I just meant, he seemed really detached from it all. I didn't mean that Sam was still looking for a "normal" life, but if it was normal Sam, I'd think he would've had some reaction to the whole thing. Not just that Adam got the childhood he'd thought he wanted back when he was a kid, but he had no reaction to seeing John in those pictures and such. He just was very detached and cold about the whole thing and very mission focused more than anything. Which is interesting when you think of Sam in S6 too.

41 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't remember the details of Sam using Adam as bait

Yeah, Dean wanted to take Adam to Bobby's and then he and Sam would return and finish what John had started. Sam was advocating they stay and use Adam as bait since whatever it was they were hunting was obviously after Adam.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not just that Adam got the childhood he'd thought he wanted back when he was a kid, but he had no reaction to seeing John in those pictures and such. He just was very detached and cold about the whole thing and very mission focused more than anything. Which is interesting when you think of Sam in S6 too.

Ah good point. And this is true.

I was mostly debating the "hypocritical" part earlier in terms of Sam teaching "Adam" about hunting. Now, if Sam had been teaching "Adam" hunting in season 1, then I'd agree that was hypocritical, but for Sam in season 4, I would argue that he'd pretty much gotten on board with Dean's earlier "dad did the best he could" and "teaching us hunting was to keep us safe" train.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, Dean wanted to take Adam to Bobby's and then he and Sam would return and finish what John had started. Sam was advocating they stay and use Adam as bait since whatever it was they were hunting was obviously after Adam.

Using Adam as bait might've been hypocritical - though maybe more cold and calculating? Dean had used people as bait before, but I think Dean usually informed them they were bait, though I don't remember exactly if that was partly due to Sam's urging at the time or not. But yeah, Dean definitely wouldn't have been so cold about it, especially with someone who might be family. Season 4 Sam was not a Sam I enjoyed very much.

Though in retrospect, probably a good idea they didn't take "Adam" to Bobby's. That might not have worked out too well for Bobby if Sam and Dean had managed to get "Adam" there.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

That opening scene with the woman getting pulled under the bed was creepy.  I don't remember if I caught the picture of John that fell on the floor the first time I watched.  

I just love it when the show puts mundane things into it - like the laundromat scene last ep and how this one opens with Sam brushing his teeth in front of the car on the side of the road.  I also like the little brotherly things, like how Sam eggs Dean on just a little more after Dean tells him to stop talking with the 'slipped one past the goalie' comment.  Shallow moment: there's something strangely alluring about the way Sam says Minnesota.

For a guy who only came around once a year, and she didn't even tell that he had a kid until said kid was 12, Adam's mom sure had a lot pictures of John around.  

Those were some big-ass ducts for a residential house.  

Kind of funny that the only thing Sam and Dean agree on is that Adam doesn't get a say.  

At least Sam wasn't tied to a tiny little chair - but he was still tied up.  It makes me wonder, though, how he still couldn't see that drinking demon blood was a bad thing after Chuck told him so in "The Monster" and the ghouls were drinking his blood in this one.  

I don't think Sam was like John at all - even juiced up on demon blood.

[Wayward Son]

Not one of my favourites! I find it dull and I'm not a fan of the whole "introducing a third brother" storyline! Plus the diner scene with Dean, Sam and Adam is so stupid. Dean would have to be a pretty big moron to  seemingly murder Adam in the middle of a crowded diner,  if he had reacted to the silver and holy water. While I'm not the biggest fan of Dean, even I don't consider Dean a big enough moron for this scene to be in character. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 1:49 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

but Sam realizing that his going to college and leaving the family didn't make him happy after all in "Afterschool Special"

I didn't think that was what Sam realized.  The teacher asked him if he was happy now, and I thought that look was that he was not. There was just no escape for him.

 

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 3:04 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

Using Adam as bait might've been hypocritical - though maybe more cold and calculating? Dean had used people as bait before, but I think Dean usually informed them they were bait, though I don't remember exactly if that was partly due to Sam's urging at the time or not. But yeah, Dean definitely wouldn't have been so cold about it, especially with someone who might be family. Season 4 Sam was not a Sam I enjoyed very much.

Adam knew he would have been bait.  He volunteered to be bait.  IMO, this was less egregious than using Michael as bait in Something Wicked.  Adam was much older than Michael.  What bugs me is when they try to make Sam seem evil or something, they usually have him do something Dean has already done, but Dean yells at him for it, so of course, Dean was right when he did it and Sam was "evil" when he does it.  I'm perilously close to bitch vs jerk, so I'm going to leave it at that, except to say that what I said wasn't really meant as Dean criticism, but more writers criticism, which I guess is the same thing since it's not like Dean is a separate entity with his onwn free will.

 

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:29 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

For a guy who only came around once a year, and she didn't even tell that he had a kid until said kid was 12, Adam's mom sure had a lot pictures of John around.  

Yeah, I know.  Anyone who just broke in the house would assume normal, happy family life.  And, why would she have his picture next to his bed?  Did she think they were in a relationship?  Were they?

 

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:29 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

At least Sam wasn't tied to a tiny little chair - but he was still tied up.  It makes me wonder, though, how he still couldn't see that drinking demon blood was a bad thing after Chuck told him so in "The Monster" and the ghouls were drinking his blood in this one.  

Because he's addicted.  Just imagine trying to tell someone addicted to meth it's bad.  They're going to rationalize it just as much.

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:29 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think Sam was like John at all - even juiced up on demon blood.

They're alike in certain ways.  They're both stubborn.  But, Dean is, too.  They're both single-minded.  For 22 years, John was all, gotta get Mary's killer to the exclusion of all else.  Season 4, Sam was all gotta kill Lillith.  They're both secretive. 

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, Katy M said:

What bugs me is when they try to make Sam seem evil or something, they usually have him do something Dean has already done, but Dean yells at him for it, so of course, Dean was right when he did it and Sam was "evil" when he does it.

See, I don't think Sam is evil for suggesting they use Adam as bait--nor do I think the writers are saying he is. Dean is actually wrong here too, IMO, he's putting his personal feelings in front of doing the job; He's entrenched himself in the idea of protecting Adam because he believes that's what John would do he can't see the forest for the trees. I don't think there's anything evil about Sam suggesting they use Adam as bait, I just think it highlights how Sam is different than he once was since it's not something I think he would've considered back even a year ago for a random stranger let alone their half brother.

On 7/2/2017 at 9:29 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't think Sam was like John at all - even juiced up on demon blood.

Oh, I think there's a lot of things that are similar about John and Sam, juiced up or not. John and Sam are both very obsessive and stubborn and I think Sam and John's brains work similarly. They both are researchers and fact-followers where Dean and Mary seem to be more gut-instinct followers. But, I also think Dean and John have many similarities too and so do Mary and Sam. John and Dean tend to have a more black and white view of hunting and monsters where I think Mary and Sam seem to live more in the gray. 

Edited July 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

I didn't think that was what Sam realized.  The teacher asked him if he was happy now, and I thought that look was that he was not. There was just no escape for him.

Right - that's what I was saying: that Sam realized that his leaving  for college didn't make him happy in the grand scheme of things ("after all"). Sam also mentioned that continuing in the "family business" was part of growing up and accepting his responsibilities... which to me is saying that Sam now considered his going away to college as more of a youthful transgression kind of thing that didn't really do much for him in the long run. For me, this episode was part of the show's weird Sam "abandoned the family" by running away to college theme they had going on at that particular time in the show. Because in this episode, Sam learns that everything he had done in the past that he had though was good - helping the picked on kid, standing up to the bully, listening to the teacher and following his dreams - instead either wasn't and/or was just a waste of time - the picked on kid committed suicide, the bully was actually sympathetic and was damaged by Sam's sticking up to him, Sam following his dream of "safe" didn't even make him happy in the end and so ended up hurting his family for nothing - and what I think supports my thinking that this is the "lesson" that Sam learned was what Sam told Dean later in "Point of No Return," that

Spoiler

when Sam had "run away" he (Sam) was "wrong every time [he] did." [Emphasis Sam's]

And Sam appeared to be very genuine about that.

Now that's not to say that I agree with this supposed lesson Sam learned - just like I'm not sure that I agree with the "lesson" Sam learned about John either - since I don't agree that Sam was awful for leaving for college or that the family would've even been better off if Sam had stayed,* but that appeared to me to be the message I got out of this episode and the show's attitude about it in general when it came to Sam.

* I actually think that if Sam had stayed, knowing that he could've had a free ride at college instead, that his resentment towards John would've grown, things would've boiled over much worse, and likely Dean might've gotten hurt somehow in the aftermath while trying to "moderate" or keep the family together. Unfortunately the show did not address this directly, and the indirect insinuations towards this - like John and Sam disagreeing and clashing as soon as they got back together - are overshadowed by the "themes" presented in episodes like this and by having Sam change his mind about John after John's death. In some ways, I would've wished that given more time and grieving the show had had Sam more openly realize nope, John was an overbearing jerk at times and things would not have necessarily been better if Sam had just stayed and been a "good son."

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

Adam knew he would have been bait.  He volunteered to be bait. 

Thank you for reminding me of this - and not to mention that "Adam's" and his mother's plan was better if he was with Sam and Dean and not near the help Bobby would have provided. I don't rewatch season 4 much except for specific favorite episodes, because it's not a favorite and I don't agree with some of the themes / "messages" the show was sending at this time, so I don't always remember all of the details of this episode.

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

What bugs me is when they try to make Sam seem evil or something, they usually have him do something Dean has already done, but Dean yells at him for it, so of course, Dean was right when he did it and Sam was "evil" when he does it. 

Don't get me started. I've already pontificated on that particular nit / theme at length in the "Bitch Vs Jerk" thread. Sometimes I don't think they even do it on purpose at this point... it's just they can't help themselves.

Edited to add:

Warning: the following comment is actually about "Afterschool Special," but my brain is apparently not entirely with the program yet - been away from here too long - and I got my episodes confused. So while I think my point still stands, please ignore the reference to "this episode." Thank you and proceed with that in mind...

... Like this episode. Did  the bully really have to turn out to have a completely sympathetic backstory and then be turned into a woobie because of the nickname that Sam gave him rather than overcoming it? And then compound the tragedy by having him be the poor guy's only son, so that the guy lost his wife and his son and now that guilt was on Sam? Was that really necessary to the story? And was it necessary to have to the picked on kid also commit suicide? And then there's Dean's backstory in this. Was it really necessary to have the jilted girl dress Dean down in front of a huge crowd? Typical television trope that generally doesn't happen in real life. And not exactly a subtle trope either. I personally did not need all of those particular anvils to get that Sam and Dean's life sucks sometimes and that they can't always make a difference... but as I said, sometimes the writers maybe just can't help themselves.

That episode did little to change my mind about my issues with season 4... more likely the opposite. But come to think of it, this one was mostly "meh" for me, and isn't one that improved season 4 for me either.

Edited July 19, 2017 by AwesomO4000
I meant to spoiler tag, not quote.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

... Like this episode. Did  the bully really have to turn out to have a completely sympathetic backstory and then be turned into a woobie because of the nickname that Sam gave him rather than overcoming it? And then compound the tragedy by having him be the poor guy's only son, so that the guy lost his wife and his son and now that guilt was on Sam? Was that really necessary to the story? And was it necessary to have to the picked on kid also commit suicide? And then there's Dean's backstory in this. Was it really necessary to have the jilted girl dress Dean down in front of a huge crowd? Typical television trope that generally doesn't happen in real life. And not exactly a subtle trope either. I personally did not need all of those particular anvils to get that Sam and Dean's life sucks sometimes and that they can't always make a difference... but as I said, sometimes the writers maybe just can't help themselves.

I agree with all this.  But I think you got the wrong thread for it.  ;)

[AwesomO4000]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I agree with all this.  But I think you got the wrong thread for it.  ;)

You're right! The quote that I was quoting first  in my post was talking about "Afterschool Special"  so I got confused and thought that was this thread's episode. If I move it now though, that wouldn't make sense either so... some creative editing coming right up!

Edited July 19, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[RulerofallIsurvey]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You're right! The quote that I was quoting first  in my post was talking about "Afterschool Special"  so I got confused and thought that was this thread's episode. If I move it now though, that wouldn't make sense either so... some creative editing coming right up!

It doesn't really bother me - although I just think it would be nice to have those thoughts in the Afterschool Special thread for future reference.  But anyone else coming along - especially a newer member/viewer might get confused.  :)

[JanetWaldo]

On 7/18/2017 at 10:30 AM, Katy M said:

Because he's addicted.  Just imagine trying to tell someone addicted to meth it's bad.  They're going to rationalize it just as much.

I don't need to imagine.  Been there.  Done that.  Paid for the t-shirt factory in blood,  sweat, and tears.  You should understand that for a meth addict, it's not about rationalizing.  Not at all.  They aren't taking the drugs for some 'greater good' like Sam alleged, or even to 'help them get through the day' like most alcoholics will say, or to work a double shift like some amphetamine addicts.  Real meth addicts don't care at all about anything other than getting their next high and they don't even bother with any rationalization.   So imo,, even at the height of his addiction, Sam was not quite that far gone (since he was able to rationalize drinking the demon blood to use his powers to kill Lilith - which means that he was at least capable of some rational thought) that he shouldn't have been able to piece together a clue. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, JanetWaldo said:

 So imo,, even at the height of his addiction, Sam was not quite that far gone (since he was able to rationalize drinking the demon blood to use his powers to kill Lilith - which means that he was at least capable of some rational thought) that he shouldn't have been able to piece together a clue. 

Taking this to the "All Episodes" thread, because my answer more covers the entirety of season 4 themes and goings ons, including episodes that happen after this one.

[Iju]

On 02/07/2014 at 1:35 AM, catrox14 said:

But Dean skulking about the airducts and the mausoleum and then climbs his way out of the mausoleum with the high bar manuever?  All manner of hot. Athletic!Dean FTW

 

omg that slight stomach slip was EVERYTHING wasn't it?

On 02/07/2014 at 11:02 AM, kimrey said:

This episode had some great moments, but I still hate, hate, hate that they introduced a half-brother into the story.

honestly, i would love to find a way to erase his existence from the SPN universe. i don't care that he is dead. it's rather he wasn't there in the first place.

---------

unsurprisingly to you guys, i absolutely vehemently loathed this episode. i was completely with dean this episode, and that's because i understand him. unlike many of my peers, i have a father. like dean, i worship my father. like dean, i would do anything for my father. so when i found out that john had another child, that not only he loved that child but actually spent time with him and took care of him, i had the same expressions as dean. so the whole episode it was like a mind read. i was filled with boiling rage, suffocating jealousy and just staring wishing adam was dead. i saw the pictures, i was gutted and my mouth flew open. i know it's not adam's fault but funnily enough that's what made me hate him all the more. the most i hated was when adam kept saying "Dad", i wanted to slap him.

and dangit, when dean asked if sam was jealous and sam whipped it back at him like snake venom (well delivered by jared) and dean's mouth opened for a reply but he didn't have a thing, he just stared there with his lips slightly moving. that's how i was. i really was on dean's side this episode, more than ever. 

some more things to add:

i almost hated john. i was very nearly going to understand why the fanbase overwhelmingly hates him so much, i really was. but we don't know what happened to john when he went to that town. we can be sure he didn't want a kid, that he did an unprotected one night stand. and while we can blame him for being a terrible father for hiding sam and dean's brother and for doing all sorts of cool things with adam, he did all those things because he is a good father. just think about it, what if john hated his son? what if he learned about his son and didn't care? that would have made him even worse. i know that john would look at sam and dean sometimes, wishing he could tell them about their brother, but not telling them for the best, or maybe even being scared at their reactions. am i angry at him? yes. very. i will be for some time. but that doesn't change he loved sam and dean so much, and eternally wished for them to have normal lives like adam. he was still a kickass, badass dad. i'm not going to hate him, not just yet at least. there's going to have to be more than that for me to do it.

the part when dean got trapped underground. the dragging of the brick was so scary to me, i even started shaking. it was how harshly and quick the dragging was, it reminded me of the stomping down the stairs in psycho. 

(also dean crawling underground and searching through the graves or whatever, that scene in general as a matter of fact, he's so brave and strong <3)

the "feeding scene". dear pete that scene was absolutely disgusting, their digging and prodding and slicing into sam. in a good, horrified way of course.

random but when dean saved sam and he said "Thank you." like he just saved his life and sam says "Thank you?" that sounded so weird to me lol. i even expected for dean to give him a look and say "Don't ever say that to me" or something like that.

the RPS fight was funny, didn't they do that in S3 as well? loved it.

lastly - dean waking up all groggy and hungry. poor guy, i hope he ate afterwards. i don't remember seeing him eat D:

Edited March 25, 2018 by Iju

[The Companion]

On 7/1/2014 at 11:10 PM, Cee23 said:

Sam and Dean are on a hunting trip when they receive a call from an Adam Milligan, who is trying to find John Winchester. They discover that Adam was conceived 19 years ago when his mother fell in love with John Winchester.

YOU GUYS!!!!!!! I feel so lame because I stopped watching this show after season 3. Now I'm catching up and I just watched this episode and ugh, the feels! And no one wants to discuss it with me because you know, it's old, they're over it! Adam was cute. It was sad.

Did I do the formatting right and everything?

Finally getting around to it 5 years later over here. 😆

On 4/1/2016 at 2:48 PM, Dobian said:

The one about the lonely life of the monster hunter, no relationships, no connections.  I agree that their dad was a POS, he could have found a stable home for them to live in so they weren't always on the road.  And now he's Negan, what a monster!  Seriously though, the problem he had was that he knew someone was coming for Sam one day, so he had to keep them close and teach them to defend themselves.

I wonder if he placed and leaned back while giving Sam that speech. 🙄 

On 4/11/2017 at 6:32 PM, Hanahope said:

This was a very emotional episode.  Between Dean and Sam realizing that their dad had a real 'family' with another woman and a son he did normal stuff with, that they could have had a more normal life and John knew how, but refused to do so with Sam and Dean, to ultimately losing the half brother they didn't know they had.  How devastating on all fronts.  Plus, for all they know , there could be more half-siblings. 

Dean was the boss in that mausoleum scene. 

Even though he was an absentee father and he shared more with Sam and Dean, the betrayal of knowing that their brother was raised in a normal manner with birthdays and baseball games had to hurt. Then to have him dead before they could meet. It's a lot to process. I suspect John would describe Sam and Dean as his real family while dipping his toe into this life was a fantasy.  We have seen both boys fantasize about a normal life, so it is not surprising to see John indulge in that fantasy too. He had the wife and the kids and the picket fence. Some part of him is bound to miss that simpler time. That doesn't make John not awful, but I think it is understandable.

I thought the point raised by the ghouls was interesting. Their father did nothing more than steal bodies. I mean, Sam and Dean dig up bodies and destroy them all the time. I suppose the ghoul is dangerous because of its ability to mimic the dead, but there is no indication of use of that ability at all. I think it is an interesting avenue, similar to the ethical vampires. Do all monsters need killing?