Featherhat

Interesting post. I felt like it was a too abrupt shift from writing Kenna+Henri (plus Diane and Catherine)=True Love to seeing only the mercenary aspects of their relationship and mistressdom in general, that it felt like a deliberate changing course and not a character finally growing up. She did get a massive shock to her world after being attacked and belated really realising she would only ever come 3rd if lucky (but she was initially offered position as junior mistress in one ep and went to thinking she would be as good as monogamous the next was a little strange in the first place, and I think had everything to do with loosing the Diane actress). I can definitely get behind the idea of character growth though, especially if she never has to play the sexy ingénue who was incredibly dumb again, which was much more annoying. Kenna and Bash growing closer was actually much better than I had imagined, but it really lacked emotion for me which is one of the reasons I thought her jarring in the 2nd half.

I haven't seen this episode yet but I've felt like this on more than one occasion. You can see the desire and intention but also the points where it inevitably goes wrong and all comes crashing down, and the points where she is just helpless against other forces.

Oh, that's a really good definition and not something I'd explicitly put my finger on before. It's true for me a probably a lot of others here that I joined TWOP to intensely discuss canon both the good and the bad. Other areas are more focused on using canon as a starting off point for their own ideas but it is all most certainly to enhance the experience that we don't get from only watching the show/reading the book etc and making a few remarks to the non fandom people who we know who watch it. Regarding "doing it better" well, that's easy to say when your only critics are fellow fans who most likely fall into the same subset of fandom that you do. You don't have moive/network execs/publishers breathing down your neck. You can discuss how it affects art but it is a reality if you want to make what you love into your job. Self published novels and low, low budget fan movies are rarely great and in theory should be unencumbered by someone with commercial interest, but that also means fewer people to go "hang on, this needs some work." And it cuts both ways. In early seasons on a popular TV show the creators are revered as geniuses and the network handing down notes to make sure a certain storyline is controlled the way they want it are the bad guys. When a show inevitably has a drop in quality the fandom cries out "oh why can't the network keep a closer eye on what the writers are doing?!" "It's so successful that they're letting the showrunner call the shots when they should have someone telling them No, that's terrible!" (That was me and others at TWOP a few years ago in the Greys fandom). Similarly GRRM is revered for ASOIAF but that doesn't mean people aren't hoping his business minded agent/publisher/editor aren't trying to help him speed up the process as much as possible.

Yes, my post was also trying to make the point that a lot of the nastiest attacks involving many fandoms had little to do with perceived racism/sexism/homophobia (although fandom in general does discuss and sometimes struggles to discuss these issues in relation to something they love in or in some cases love to hate) but about using these issues as ways to "win" the argument. Yeah even a few years ago when livejournal and fan created sites and message boards were in full swing and you could instantly discuss the episode, there wasn't the perception that the writers and actors were a click away. Some people involved with shows came on to message boards dedicated to their job and it often became contentious (see Aaron Sorkin vs his own writer on TWOP which became Aaron Sorkin vs TWOP) or love ins (Joss Whedon on Whedonesque) but those were the exceptions. Now any witty tweet can get retweeted by someone involved with the show and hey, that barrier crossed and soon, why shouldn't others bombard an actor for a positive response? It really doesn't help that the perception (not necessarily the truth) is that twitter and fan campaigns helped get various "crack" ships together on their shows. If I was still in the worst of my immature young teen crack phase (very tame only Buffy/Faith which Whedon acknowledged was deliberate) I might have more than a few tweets I regret now.

I agree with that, and I wrote upthread that its good to be aware of how TV portrays and encourages societal expectations about men and women, and I have issues with CS as a whole but I don't think the specific moment being discussed here was particularly problematic, certainly nothing on the scale of my Rumbelle and Regina/Robin/Marion issues in this episode. But internet road rage directed at actors (or rage directed at producers isn't going to help anything. And I think there probably was less to do with been annoyed over rape culture on the show and more to do with ship wars. Fandom and social issues are a really thorny bunny for me I once had the following conversation with someone in another fandom a while ago: Person: Anyone who doesn't like John/Sherlock is homophobic! ME: Really I'm LGBT I can't stand them faux!together and think the show tap dancing back and forward on nothing for so long is kinda getting homophobic! And the conversation deteriorated from there. Shipping wars get passionate and real life issues get used as weapons. People come in wanting to talk about real life issues and how the show handles them and get unsuspectingly dragged into shipping wars and you end up with the toxic atmosphere in certain parts of the OUAT fandom. That's true, especially in longterm fandoms and shows where as you say a lot is drawn fairly broadly and there are blanks. This is usually where a large fanfic community gathers creating its own fic for the pairing which gets mixed with what they're actually seeing on screen. Not necessarily in a crazy way but in a way where they take it for granted. And then you get awkward situations where canon massively diverges and the writers get accused of malice against real life groups, the fans and characters themselves. A Song of Ice and Fire (book) fandom is going to explode in the fire of a hundred Snape and Dumbledore theories, SQ/SC/SF shippers and Wincest fanfic writers if a theory that large swaths of that fandom take 100% for granted is proven false and whilst it takes its cue from canon, the last time I checked in on it, it was about 80% Head Canon taken as fact. ETA I think a lot of that is because Rumpel's arc has been about power and violence, not sex and violence. They did get a lot of flack for the Mila storyline IIRC. And Rumbelle is perceived as being off in their own little shipping corner, not related to any other couple. I was going to bring gender into it but Michael Coleman got the full brunt of shipping rage when he got involved (I think he was hardly blameless but essentially not lying in what he said)and if RC poked his nose in the inferno he'd get burnt too.

I don't see it being particularly CW. It's always been very sappily romantic with romantic obstacles (Kathryn, Baelfire vs Hook) ABC has always done melodrama, although not usually this young skewing. They went with OUAT instead of a more grown up version (Fables) because of the Disney vault and being about to use it to create "synergy" between all the brands which inevitably involves both younger demos, those parents looking for something to watch with their kids that isn't on Disney Channel and people looking for some nostalgia. The quality of the writing has dropped since S1 but that's not because they didn't know how young it might skew, a lot of serialised genre type shows run out of stream quickly.

Geez there should be no need what so ever for anyone to need to be "redeemed" for tweeting about one character pairing over the others. Especially as its part of her job to promote her current storyline, and that would be true even if she personally preferred Emma to date Grumpy. And I really can't see the Hook/Emma scene as rape culture or presumptuous pestering. He is trying to persuade her to give their relationship a shot but he wasn't either physically or emotionally intimidating her and Emma of all people can tell anyone to get lost. It's good to be aware of the ways in which TV/movies portray the more problematic thoughts of society on the relationships between men and women, but that's reading a lot into a tense but not abusive relationship negotiating.

Yeah I also thought they were doing that as a hook to non regular OUAT watchers into other Disney motifs. The episode was also lighter than you might expect on in show mythology given what happened in the finale. Well that was partly because half of it was Frozen. I imagine Disney is frantically trying to figure out how to further "broaden" the Frozen franchise as we speak. It is an impressive bump, it will definitely be interesting to see what happens next week. Almost certainly a drop but did people turn up soley because of a massive marketing campaign and disappear now the gimmick of live action Frozen has been played or did the writers succeed in convincing a lot of them to stick around?

At the beginning it seemed like she was honestly thinking they were in love and she was moaning about him not being exclusive with her (and still seeing the mistress he'd had since he was 15 -b big surprise) but they seem to have tweaked her character to make her more mercenary which is actually more interesting. I like Bash and Kenna more than I thought I was going to but I agree the fact that she was his father's mistress really gives me the ick. I wasn't a fan of the fact that it got a bit brushed under the carpet in the last few episodes and Bash didn't really seem to have a big problem with it anymore, only the practical issues of protecting Kenna from his father. I think Mary is still in Bella Swan territory for me. She's getting way more pro active about stuff but AK couldn't sell me on her darker moments and I still think she's one of the show's weaker links. They also relied on “evil guy/grey antagonist suddenly helps out the main character for no reason” trope a bit too much, but she’s way better than at the beginning. Though its funny she can stare Catherine down but she still comes off as the hanger on with her Ladies in Waiting sometimes. I’m not a huge fan of shows having babies and I’d prefer the plot to end with the kid being sent off to be raised by a trusted person in the country (which often did happen) but that won’t bring maximum drama would it? I certainly don’t want Lola to be a de facto mistress or have a massive love triangle about it but that seems somewhat inevitable. I wouldn’t mind if Darnley/Bothwell/Rizzio make it across the channel at some point this season or next since that really was a real life (supposed) love square more interesting than the standard CW ones.

The thing with Sarah Bunting is that she chose to accept an invitation and went there with the deliberate intention of being as rude and snide as possible to her hosts and their guests. She doesn't have to like the system or kiss arse but she's as judgemental and rude as the worst she imagines about the Crawleys and has been since minute 1, if she had been more civil she could have made her points much better. Likewise *demanding* to go and congratulate the staff without so much as a "please" was cringy - this is someone's home and she would have been furious if Cora had barged into hers. I agree that I don't see why it was such a "Tom" issue, except that I guess Robert unfortunately defaults to Branson as the semi tame rebel whenever he meets someone not a landed Tory at his table. I guess its just to establish further series long conflict. Thomas is the luckiest SOB ever. He's stolen, blackmailed, sexually assaulted his way around Downton for well over 15 years now and gets forgiven for everything. everyone else on the show is far more loyal to him then he is to them. Yeah love triangle holding patterns despite large amounts of time passing, business as usual for Downton. I was annoyed by the entire storyline last season but I thought Mary was better here comparatively, but still not feeling it with either guy and I often like Mary but she's not so awesome that one of these guys couldn't have found dozens of beautiful, witty, heiresses when there were hundreds of thousands of women who were going spare.

As a Brit I predict that if/when Outlander gets picked up in the UK it will be less popular than GOT but more popular than "The White Queen" (and entirely English but still contentious affair), but it would be interesting if someone suddenly picked it up. Although I don't get the sense that the books are as popular in the UK as they are in the US the "romantic sexy Highlander vs awkward English person" is a well read trope even in England and I don't think it would have made the blind bit of difference, there are a lot of shows pushing "isn't Scotland beautiful/awesome/powerful" and its not like anyone needed the reminder that they disliked the English/Westminster. Very few like Westminster, just like very few like DC.

Sure, but do they just marry each other, do they both marry A again as well? Does it automatically become a "communal marriage" or separate, baring in mind how this might affect financial or custody issues etc.

Both the Browns and the Dargers have at times claimed to be the inspiration behind the "middle class suburban polygamy" story that Big Love started off as. It might be BS but there's no doubt both families were actively looking for opportunities to be on TV. I do think that at least the producers know there is crossover between those who watch BL and those who (still) watch the Browns. Lets face it, the Browns are fairly boring in their cluelessness, copying the filler scenes from BL counts as "action" as far as the TV show goes. I'd be much more interested in meatier topics that they won't discuss. (No not just sex). I don't really have a problem with any group of consenting adults arranging their lives as they all wish. Monogamy is not the only way to fulfilling relationships, although just as monogamous relationships begin to have the same issues over and over, so to do "more communicative" poly ones. I do have more of a problem with religiously motivated polygamy but even so, all the wives seem to know Kody isn't such a prize and whilst 3 of them grew up in the community, they all have female relatives who've left that they could turn to if they really did want to leave, not to mention their own special "Breaking Brown" etc. I do think if legal marriage to more than one person was allowed then most of a massive amount of the "western" family legal system would have to be rewritten from scratch. Person A is married to B who is also married to C. IF C and B die does A get the benefits from C even if they themselves were not married to C? IF A, B, C and D are all group married and B dies, and C leaves the group what happens to any kids, finances and benefits? If E leaves a group marriage do A, B, C, D, and F have to get re married? What if A is married to B and C and but B is only married to A and D? But A and C are getting a divorce but it turns out D is doing most of the child rearing whilst B is earning most of the money? It may happen eventually but most current systems would go "um, WTF?" when faced with that.

Well I doubt King Richard the Lionheart and Prince John were anthropomorphic lions in history either. ;) I completely get what you're saying but there's an entire sub genre of books/TV/Movies dedicated to "twisting history" or trying to challenge the common perception of historical figures, to be "controversial" , intriguing or just plain more CW (Reign) . I suspect Once will actually be rather tame in this regard. It does make me uncomfortable when once switches from fairy tales to the blurring between legend and history "in our world" though, even if Disney did it first.

You are absolutely right it. Unfortunately a lot of writers do "write what they know" which is one of the reasons why late 20s/30s/40s slackers bromances are popular. One of the reasons PLL is one of the most lesbian friendly shows on TV is because they have a lesbian showrunner and a couple of other gay EPs, same with "The Fosters". Shonda Rhimes has been noted for having diverse casts for years now and will have two of the handful of network shows featuring black women as the lead, the fact that she is (one of the very few) a female black showrunner undoubtedly does have something to do with that. Good writers shouldn't be incapable of writing different experiences, (one certainly hopes that the bulk of writers of police procedurals haven't experienced violent crime etc), but they ....don't always. In A&E's case "write what they know" seems to have paused on "well we've written 15 storylines dealing with turning Regina in Woegina, shall we make it 16?" Well it almost certainly won't happen but Elsa/anyone? She doesn't have "canonical" love interest, even in her own movie and there are already loads of people freaking out that "Let it Go" is gay propaganda, because its a Disney song about being true to yourself. But , yeah..won't happen. Seriously maybe characters we haven't seen before on the show, Jasmine and a Aladdin gender swap? Wendy/Esmeralda? Cadet Kelly and Sharpay Evans? C-3P0 and R2D2? Maleficent falls into the old "evil gay" cliché but it is tempting and KBvS gives good gay. If they aren't going to go with Mulan/Aurora they should introduce other Disney characters and get creative with same gender pairings in the way they have with straight ones. I just don't see any of the regulars as having much bi-curiousity as written and I don't think these writers can pull of a full on "oh right, I'm bisexual" storyline, even if they wanted to. Trying to tie in lack of SwanQueen to lack of diversity arguments holds no weight. Really. Look, the show could definitely stand to be more diverse in all regards. Seeing as it is primarily based on European folk tales and 50's cartoons its not hard to see why it isn't apparently a priority when even shows set in 2014 struggle. It's not a good thing, but its a fact that they are very focused on having Rumpel/Regina be the "canonical big bads" behind most things that that whilst there are twists, they aren't usually diverse twists.

I bring it up in terms of LGBT because After Ellen and how/what they represent about queer representation on TV is a pet peeve of mine recently.As a bisexual women I like crack femslash (esp anyone in PLL) and I really get it, but I'd like it if they spent less time promoting ships that will never be canon and more on those that might or already are. I'm well aware that a lot of slash writers are female, by a massive margin "two hot guys banging and no other females involved so I can woobie them" cliché and all that. Sure, but its those people, and those they get to follow them that start to drive this flat out nasty relationship between the show and its "fans". All pairings have their crazies, I wasn't actually singling out SQ in that regard. The con video I was thinking of when I made the post was a Stargate con where some fans really made things really, really *awkward* for the actors though they tried to handle it gracefully and the same thing is happening today, not just at cons or appearances but on social media sometimes 24/7. I have no idea what ABC would say re SQ or OUAT specifically but ABC is one of the better networks for LGBT representation in general. They might veto a pairing and if a couple could kiss or not but maybe not any same sex couple.

Agreed, he was one of the best finds of Dollhouse, particularly for his talent at morphing into extremely different personas. He would be a natural for a TV spy. CCM? WTF?? Not anything like as happy (he was bad even by the terrible WB/CW standards) But...like other washed up teen idols before him, he may well surprise me.

It was alright. Not perfect but cute and yeah I like John Cho and Karen Gillan so that helps. We often wonder where pilots can go from here and sometimes is it is "nowhere" other times it is "they only planned for one season" and others its "they stretched out a premise with a supposedly short shelf life for over 100 episodes". It really depends on how they broaden it out. Pygmalion itself is great, but my favourite part was always the epilogue regarding the future and the story behind it.

Joining in late but fandom and crackships/sub text and "queerbaiting" vs diversity is a pet peeve of mine. One of AE's issues is that a lot of their content comes from "subtext ships". They cover most of the main lesbian pairings on TV but a lot of their traffic comes from people squeeing over SQ or whatever Rizzoli/Isles are called etc etc, and the recaps and "Top 20 gayest OUAT moments" further fuel a rewriting of cannon that not only has nothing to do with the show, but wasn't really intended to have much to do with the actual show that didn't have the handful of gifs they could basically make fanfic out of for their audience. Then something that was often out of context in the first place escalates into attacking an actress for not immediately agreeing that her character, who has never shown the slightest interest in women in general or this particular woman must/should/will announce her devotion to biggest enemy. I also have some ambivalent feelings about the biggest or best known lesbian/bi website on the internet devoting so much time and effort to subtext, but that's another rant. I think the "passion" of certain crack ships has always been there, but until social media took off in a big way, it was usually confined to fandom. There were "ship wars" on fan message boards and LJs and blogs, but it only really got directly thrown at actors and writers at cons and meetups, the crazy getting flung at the actors on twitter got bought up in person with similar excruciating scenarios. It still does, seriously does anyone really think an actor wants to read you writing a character with their body having sex with someone of any gender or sexuality in public and be expected to respond positively or get vitriol flung at them?

It's the ratings for the 3 combined telecasts of the show. It's ok, although Salem premiered higher. Considering this is only their 2nd scripted series WGN is probably fine with them.

I'm in a different country, and it's not exactly the same but to be a good estate agent/realtor you have to put in the hours IMO, whether you have 9 houses or 200 to sell. Where I am it's fluctuating between a buyers and sellers market but either way you aren't going to make much money if you won't work weekends or evenings and have to take time off for filming your show. It's possible Janelle works mostly in the admin/legal side which would match up with her previous government job in Utah and be more regular in terms of hours at the office, and even work that can be done at home. She's certainly dysfunctional (I'd love to know exactly why she thought becoming her ex brother in law's 2nd wife was a good idea. But she does seem to acknowledge some real world issues that will get worse if not sorted out (like the houses) then again anyone who spent even 5% of their time thinking about practical issues would come across as a genius in this group.

Seriously why would I want to buy her book, even hypothetically? She's had her life splashed across the tabloids since she was 17, including all her parents toxic crap. She's often posted her "defence" online in her own words and on talk shows. Her list of A list lovers isn't going to be a big deal unless (to be horrible) it happened during The Parent Trap or there is someone *entirely* scandalous for whatever reason. The "list" that "leaked" a few weeks ago was a big shrug, even if a couple have "goody two shoes" images then or now. Plus this was supposed to be her side of the story and it was empty, boring, frustrating and sad at the same time, I can't see a book being much different. I do think she'll make it to the beginning of the show and then pull out after two weeks. Or maybe that will be how long she's actually contracted for. Long enough to bring some publicity for everyone, but not long enough to totally ruin the show or prove her staying power.

Aly Michalka has been cast as "Peyton" the best friend but only (so far) as a recurring, not a regular in the way Krosney was going to be.

1st poster from Spoilertv: http://www.spoilertv.co.uk/images/How%20to%20Get%20Away%20With%20Murder/Season%201/Posters%20and%20Wallpapers/How+to+Get+Away+With+Murder+-+First+Look+Promotional+Poster.jpg.php I can't decide whether its weird or clever that they're using the HIMYM font for this.

Careful about that. The author (and this episode) are good at world building but the history owes more to the victorian image of the Highlands than the actual history. Fun show though