Carrie Ann

White Oak stake, I think? That might be the only thing.

Eff yes. Worth waiting for.

I barely noticed that Audrey didn't seem like herself this episode because she hasn't felt right to me since Season 3. I don't know if it was spending so much time at the beginning of S4 with Lexie, and then with Mara this season, but I honestly think that ER and maybe the writers have sort of lost track of Audrey. Maybe they should have all watched S1-3 again to get back into that space, or maybe I just need to be more patient, but I'm half-resigned to the fact that she will never really be the Audrey we got to know for three seasons. So tired of Mara. Just 100% ready to be done with all Entity personalities who are not Audrey or the Grand Unified Haven Helper Persona. Otherwise, I found this episode interesting and I like when the Trouble ties into what's going on with the characters in general. So I appreciated Nathan finding that he can't feel Audrey anymore, and then disappearing completely.

Yeah, but just because Alaric isn't handling things perfectly with people, or being hypocritical in his own life, doesn't mean that he loses his right to be mad at Stefan for hurting him and others. Stefan lied to Alaric, and sort of used him to back up his cover story while he was living his Savannah life, and he continues to hurt people that Alaric cares about. Alaric also cares about Stefan (in my opinion), and he doesn't like seeing him lose the best parts of himself. What he was asking Alaric to do to "help him" was to compel his newly vamped girlfriend to just be fine with being a vampire and to go away and live a happy life. That's trying to control someone else, trying to take the easy way out, and while Ivy might have been fully on board with it, he wasn't doing it for her. He was doing it so he could be free. Like I said, I love Stefan (he's my favorite character), and I understand everything he's doing here, but that doesn't make it any less shitty. And his being shitty doesn't make anyone else's actions LESS shitty, but none of them have to be happy that he's blowing up his relationships with them, and hurting them, because he's in pain.

Oh boo. That really bums me out. Why would he think Bonnie could die when Kai couldn't?

I believe that look was just meant to show Liam's shock and confusion that that girl, who he believed was mortally wounded, was up and walking around like nothing had happened. I don't think anything more was intended. It's just to start his suspicion about Elena (which she shut down later by kissing him). I love Stefan, and I understand everything he's doing and I think it makes perfect sense for his character and is WAY more interesting than him just doggedly tracking down every lead and being selfless and whatever. I think him turning completely inward and shutting everyone else out is the only way he can get through this without shutting off the humanity entirely. He's barely holding on, but this is how he's making it through. I get it. But as far as Alaric, and everyone else who is berating Stefan, is concerned: I think that's their right. They're all grieving in their own ways, but when those ways hurt others, that's not OK and no one has to pretend it is. Same goes for Elena when she was hurting people and doing witchy drugs at the beginning of the season, or Jeremy being a total ass in general. I frankly hope that for Steroline, the rest of this season involves Stefan working his ass off to earn her trust and friendship back because he has royally effed that up. And yeah I don't think Alaric's relationship with Damon is anywhere near as deep as Stefan's (though the writers spent way more time on it for awhile there), but Alaric does love Damon. And he loves Elena, and Jeremy, and all these other idiots who are hurting and grieving. And he sees Stefan's actions as hurting them too. I see people asking what Alaric was doing to get Bonnie and Damon back, and my answer is that he was trying to help from the homebase, believing that Stefan was doing what he said and tracking down those leads. If Stefan had just blown him off, Alaric might have taken up those searches on his own. Who knows? Stefan handled his shit poorly, period. They probably wouldn't have gotten anywhere on this side of things anyway, but I don't blame Alaric or Caroline for being pissed that he was lying to them and for giving up without telling them, because he basically made that decision for all of them. That's not fair.

She killed him so that Tyler would not technically be the person who killed him, and therefore would not trigger his werewolf curse. Again.

Guys. I liked that episode??? I mean, anything Elena/Liam or Alaric/Jo was not worth watching, but everything else was good. Entertaining, surprising, touching. Damon repeating his "There are probably a billion other people you'd rather be here with," and Bonnie tearing up and saying, "Not so much." GAH. I am going to miss them and 1994 so bad. I assume we're in for our annual "Bonnie disappears for several episodes" stretch here? Stefan was at Maximum Dick this episode, which was perfect lead-up to his breakdown at the end. That Defan hug got me. Paul Wesley is a great crier. And I don't care for Liv, but that moment when she put her hand on the dying guy's face was classic TVD for me. For a second I thought she was going to pull some dark magic to bring him back to life, and then I realized what she was doing. It was a great move. Heroic in that morally grey way this show used to be so great at.

Good for them. I know a lot of people are down on the show, and I have concerns too, but it's still my favorite show on TV right now, and I want it to stay on and keep healthy ratings so their budget doesn't get slashed.

Did I miss a goodbye with Hope and Sami? I think that's the only major castmember she has a connection to that I missed. I liked that last hug with Kate, and that the last shot of her well-wishers was Marlena, Roman, and Lucas. In terms of cast members, that seemed appropriate. And if Bryan Dattilo ever wants to cut the cord with Days, I hope they let Lucas join Sami in Hollywood.

I'm trying to figure out why this would be, without Oliver actually being missing, and all I can figure is that it would be a combination of other characters getting the flashbacks, and the story being spread out enough that Oliver doesn't have to be in every scene in the present. Laurel and Felicity having their stories so separated from his would help. But then there's the "long stretch" of shirtlessness...

The biggest reason this is not a triangle to me is that I'm almost 100% positive that Ray won't be on this show past this season, aside from guest appearances. To me, it's only a triangle if there is a real chance for either relationship, and there isn't with Ray. He's here to be the spoiler, or at least the threat to Olicity, and that's it. In Season 1, we all assumed Tommy was a long-term cast member, so the O/L/T triangle had real weight. And also, I find triangles more dramatically effective when all three parties have a relationship with each other, so the third side of the triangle--the line that connects the two "competing" love interests--actually matters as well. Oliver and Tommy's relationship was more important than either of their relationships with Laurel were, from this viewer's perspective. Ray and Oliver basically don't know each other, and...any of my other thoughts about them probably belong in the spoiler spec or hopes/fears thread.

Also, many series are developed with the idea that their partner leads would eventually be together (Castle, Bones, Haven, for a few examples), so that's an element that's just baked into the show and it doesn't have to be your favorite part, but that's where the writers are going. I've watched shows where I wasn't into the main romantic pairing, and sometimes I just can't get past it and I quit the show. Now, the writers and cast of SH constantly contradict themselves when it comes to Ichabod/Abbie, and I think part of that is just so that they don't give up too much about where the show is heading in general. But I suspect that even if it wasn't the original plan, once they cast NB and TM in these roles, and saw them together on screen, this became the plan. I think they continued to test out the idea of a love triangle with Katrina over last season, but that during the hiatus, they came to only see her as a roadblock. I don't begrudge anyone for not liking Ichabbie, but it is happening--slowly, with a lot of bumps along the way, but this is the path we're on.

I've never seen the level of anti-shipping, pre-series premiere, like what I saw for Elementary and Sleepy Hollow, and recently, The Flash. Now, all of those have other factors too. Some people would hate the idea that Holmes and Watson would ever be together romantically; some people knew Ichabod was married and his wife was still out there, and wanted that to mean that romance was off the table; and a lot of Flash viewers have been burned by a similar romantic pairing on Arrow. But still, there does seem to be an overarching pattern there. It doesn't mean anything about an individual's reasons for not shipping two characters, but it's important to acknowledge that there is a tendency for fans to reject POC characters in what would otherwise be seen as obvious or inevitable romantic couplings. And also that there is a dearth of good romantic storylines involving POC characters (true for every other kind of storyline as well, of course). Anyway, on that note, I don't really get what they're trying to do with Hawley. It seems way too simplistic to use him to cause conflict between Jenny and Abbie, because their relationship is so much more complex than that. And because I don't believe Abbie cares enough about the romantic side of her life to be willing to go through ANY amount of conflict with Jenny over it. So if they only have short-term plans for Hawley, then I guess I can see him just being there to annoy Ichabod and maybe be the catalyst for some realizations. But if they plan to have him here long-term, then...?

Merlyn and Nyssa were great, and I actually really liked the episode. I liked the flashbacks, for once, because I liked Oliver taking some control back and being proactive about his situation. I also liked getting the Fyers and China White bits, because it's nice to connect things now and again. Lots of Season 1 callbacks this episode, which I enjoyed. But, you know, yeah, there's something missing on the show, and that's the OT3 Team Arrow dynamic. Felicity being gone hurt the energy of the episode. I actually think it would have been OK for her to miss this one, because there was so much going on, had she not been so removed from Episode 3 as well. The other negative: sigh. Nyssa was used to prop Laurel, as we all predicted, and what a bummer after such a great start. Also, the scene with Quentin leaving the VM for Sara just about killed me, and I honestly don't understand WHAT they are doing there, if not trying to make us angry at Laurel for not telling him. SOMEONE. TELL. QUENTIN AND DINAH. Now. At this point, it's probably going to be Merlyn or someone like that, and it will happen to turn him against the Arrow and make me sad, and once again I will blame Laurel and ARGH.

Why was Trivia *NIGHT* happening at what appeared to be midday? It was really sunny when Barry whooshed away from Felicity, and then we see Capt. Cold running from Joe, and the sun was at about noon-height.

I agree with you, @fantique, and made many of these same points in my previous post in this thread. I brought up the FB office visit to offer another reason he might be inclined to tout FB as the best social media platform.

OK, so it was still a buttering-up by Facebook. No reason for it to be held there, except to schmooze him, right?

A Q&A with their staff?

I just remembered that Stephen was invited to the Facebook offices sometime last year. I swear he said he would talk about why at some point, but I don't remember any outcome of that? At any rate, I would bet they sort of schmoozed him and that in combination with it just working better for him has made him a Facebook cheerleader. It's sort of...out of touch, because Facebook is definitely the dinosaur of social media right now. Like I said before, I really think it's easier to say that people should just "ignore it" than it is to actually do it, and I don't blame any public figure for retreating from any form of social media. SA is probably taking it a step too far by trying to blame Twitter itself for it, rather than just saying, "Eh, it's not really for me because I dislike some aspects of it."

This was probably my least favorite episode so far, which was a surprise because I love Felicity and EBR and was excited for the ep. But I did feel that her characterization was a little off at points. She seemed younger than she does on Arrow, and I can see the reasoning for it--being around younger, happier, sunnier people like herself brought that out. I get it. But it was a shift that I wasn't really prepared for or particularly interested in, and it just didn't work for me. This was written by a first-time Flash writer, who never wrote for Arrow, and Geoff Johns. He has story credits for a few episodes on Arrow, and he co-wrote the Barry arc. I think it's possible that neither of them has a particularly great understanding of Felicity. It felt like how you would write Felicity if someone described her to you and gave you a few factoids, but not who she truly is, if that makes sense. And then there were the five wardrobe changes, and particularly that (admittedly hot) black dress that just made no sense. I assumed she just didn't know what they were doing that night, but nope. She knew it was a trivia night at a coffee shop. OK, all that said, I think my actual big issue with this show is that it feels like a Saturday morning cartoon sometimes. Probably intentional, and that's great if it's working for people. Wells and Joe West--and Barry's interactions with them--ground the series and make it feel real, but the other characters and energy just aren't hitting the right notes for me yet. I like the show well enough, but I'm not that invested in it.

We also know based on SA's Facebook comment last week that another line/exchange was cut from 3x03 that made it clear that Oliver knew Felicity was working at QC. I'm sure lines were cut from other scenes and other characters as well, so I'm not going to get up in arms about it, but I don't really get some of this stuff, from an editing/directing standpoint. I'm hoping 3x04 & 3x05 (and Flash 1x04) live up to the hype they're receiving from the EPs. I'm still pleased with the show, but my standards and expectations are high for Arrow (still riding off of the front half of S2, plus the last four eps, which I thought were great), and I want them to get back to that level. A lot of the first three episodes has felt like place setting. So now the places are set. Let's start, you know, the actual show.

I do think Spike received the special snowflake treatment from the writers in many aspects. But even outside of him, there's Dru. Angel drove her mad by conducting a campaign of psychological torment, and then he turned her into a vampire. And she ends up still crazy as a vampire. She still has psychic visions, which she did as a human as well. So I do think the vampire's personality comes from their human self. That's shown pretty consistently throughout the series. I think what Buffy told Ford was based on her understanding of it at that time. And further, there is some truth to it. Ford is approaching it like he'll be immortal, and yeah a vampire, but still himself in the way he currently understands it. What he doesn't understand is that the "demon"--for lack of a better word for the transformation, the disappearance of a soul, that takes place--will be in control, and whatever he identifies as self will be gone. Ford will be gone.

Gotcha, thanks guys. I wasn't sure, but didn't think it was confirmed either way.

Wait--how do we think Merlyn came back to life if not the Lazarus Pit? I thought that was the implication, never confirmed. So Oliver and Diggle are both just really really terrible at checking for a pulse or waiting to be sure someone's really dead?