Carrie Ann

I'm not sure who's asking for Crane and Abbie to get together right now, but I don't think I've seen that sentiment on these boards. I get that you hate shipping, but by definition, people who want to see Abbie and Crane together romantically actually want to see that relationship develop. If they just want them to make out right now, well, yes that's what fanfic is for. Also, romantic relationships are a big part of human experience, and I'm not sure why that should be ignored on TV dramas, or why including a romantic storyline makes a show instantly into a soap opera. Further, I think there's a case to be made that many shows that hold off on putting their couples together actually lose steam because of that stalling. But that's a bigger topic. I agree that the writers value Abbie, and I too see this as her show. From my perspective, there are two main characters, but if either of them is a sidekick, it's Crane. So then I'm confused as to why, if they got together, that would put Abbie in the love interest role? Why is she the Lois Lane to Crane's Superman? Why would you assume that either of them, but particularly Abbie, would suddenly lose their fullness of character if they fall in love with the other? Personally, as one of these shippers, I don't want or expect to see Ichabod and Abbie get together romantically this season, and probably not next season either. But when they do--because it will happen, assuming the show gets renewed--I see no reason to be concerned that it will negatively impact either of them as characters. They are co-leads, co-witnesses, and partners--one of them is not going to suddenly take over the support role just because their lips touch sometimes. They each bring something unique to the table that the other cannot, just speaking from a narrative perspective alone.

Replying in the Relationships thread.

Since this is the Hopes and Fears thread, I'm going to throw in with you and say that I've been harboring a tiny glimmer of a hope about your option 3 as well. I'd give it about a .05% chance, but that's better than none! I've been mentally gathering bits of supporting "evidence," despite my best efforts to let it go for my own happiness. Man, I would love it so much. Also, I'm still harboring some hope that Laurel will go through all this "training" and decide in the end that she doesn't want to do this. And then if necessary, Thea can take up the Black Canary mantle. She was using a bo staff like Sara's when she was sparring with those dudes, right?

FWIW, I think Bamon has been the shipping portmanteau since the books--before the show came out--and once something like that is established, it's pretty hard to change. I agree that it would be hard to actually go the Bamon route on the show without Bonnie suffering for it. Because we all know Elena won't be the one left out in the cold, and I think Steroline is the plan for Stefan (slowly, slowly), so we're stuck with a Delena endgame unless one of them leaves the show. But I would love it if, even after Elena gets her memories back, she still retains this personality and decides to truly Choose Herself, and leaves town. My happiest ending is Damon and Stefan together and in a good place with each other, plus their romantic partners as appropriate, and Elena not with either of them. Off living her life elsewhere.

This is hilarious, and yeah, I expect a reversal at some point. I actually agree that Facebook allows for less anonymous hate and craziness. It's not the immediate response tool that Twitter is, and yes, people can make Facebook accounts that aren't their real identity, but that's certainly not a majority of users. Your actual friends and family can often see the kind of comments you're leaving on things (again, I know there are ways to lock this down, but many people don't know that), and I think that makes people a little more circumspect about posting crazy things. Plus, tagging people who aren't your friends in your own posts isn't as common on Facebook, so if I were the type of person who wanted to post a status update about how Stephen Amell is a terrible actor he would never see it. Where for whatever reason people on Twitter @ the subjects of their tweets and then say, "Well, why would he look at something I posted?" Because it's in his notifications you doof. Anyway, if I were a celeb, I personally would probably only interact with fans on any social media platform in prescribed ways, like the Q&As that Stephen does, and otherwise, I would probably not look at my mentions, comments, etc., at all. Hell, as a fan, I try not to look at that stuff for the celebs I follow on Twitter/Instagram, because they always make me really uncomfortable. There are a huge percentage that are gross, embarrassing, cruel. I think it's probably easier to say, "Oh just ignore it" than it actually is in practice. And even if you don't let it get to you emotionally, sifting through 90% dreck in order to interact with the 10% who are normal and decent is still not a fun way to spend your time.

Man, it's a good thing the police were on the scene to take evidence and statements and ask pertinent questions of witnesses, because if we had to rely on Oliver Queen to solve this mystery...oh wait. For the record, red flags immediately went up for me at the witness's statement too, and on rewatching, it still seems intentionally vague. Oliver was growling at him at the beginning of that "interrogation" and the guy was barely keeping it together, and seemed kind of blank after Oliver said the thing about the someone being killed, leather, blonde wig and mask. Could be an acting/directing issue of course, but he didn't respond to that part one way or another, except to say he didn't kill her. Then he admits that he was on the roof, and "this lady" shows up, looks like she can take care of herself, you know. It seemed intentionally vague to me, and stuck out right away. I think he would have indicated that he saw the person the Arrow was describing. And the "I wouldn't want to be him" just seemed like another intentional mislead. Enough to make me think we're dealing with a female killer.

Even if he is primarily going to be at QC/in Starling for the time being, as @statsgirl mentioned, clearly Isabel had an acceptable office somewhere else in the building while she was there, so I think we just need to assume that's where Ray will station himself and that it's equally fancy and denotes his status to other QC employees. I mean, heck, he's already doing construction/remodels on this level, so it's safe to say he would construct an office to his standards if necessary. And I would like to get Felicity's actual title, but given the office, the assistant, and the lengths he was willing to go to get her, I would assume she's a high level executive with a C- or a VP in her title. I suspect her fellow employees would expect someone at that level to get an office like that.

Bringing this over from the 6x03 episode thread: I think it's very true that Stefan really did try to separate the bad/dark parts of himself for the first two and a half seasons. But I think he had a turning point in S3E19, where Elena and Damon roadtrip and make out (which is why I think people tend to forget it, because it was massively overshadowed by what was going on in Delena land). He's in the Salvatore holding cell, trying to get Alaric to turn into the Other Guy (b/c the Other Guy hid the last white oak stake), and Alaric takes off the ring and tells Stefan he has to try to kill him, hoping that the Other Guy will come through because he doesn't want to die. Stefan gets super concerned because of the blood that the Ripper is going to come out and take over, and Alaric tells him too bad--he needs to embrace that side, and stop fighting it, because they need to do this. He does, Stefan stays in control, Alaric turns. At the end, Stefan confronts Klaus about why he hasn't killed him yet, and Klaus says it's because he's been waiting for The Ripper to come back, and Stefan very calmly, almost happily, says, "I've been fighting that part of myself, thinking that if I repressed it, it would go away. But it won't. And now that I've accepted it, it can't control me. And neither can you. So unless you're going to stake me, why don't you get the hell out of my house?" Personally, from that point forward, I saw a change in Stefan. An acceptance of who he is and the awful things he has done, more of a who-cares attitude toward certain things, an understanding of other people that was not present prior to this change. One example--one that I don't like, but fits with this narrative--is his acceptance of Damon and all the horrible things he did last year. The fact that he still pushed Elena to be with Damon, even after he murdered innocent Whitmores and tried to kill Jeremy again, etc etc. To me, it seems like he's reached a place where he understands that everyone is at different points on their journey, and there's only so much you can control in yourself and in others. Maybe his experience with trying to help Elena after she turned brought him further in that understanding as well. So I don't think he denies his darkness anymore. I don't think he has for a long time. Tied into that, a little thing that bugs me is that they finally showed that he drinks from blood bags this year, but people have been debating this for TWO seasons because they never bothered to show him doing it in S4 or S5. But I believe he was doing it from S3 onward. They show him doing it in S3E17, after Damon has suggested he try moderation, and by the end of that episode, he's successfully fought against his bloodlust in order to save Meredith. And there's no reason to believe he would have stopped afterward, since he no longer believed he could just "become" something that was always inside of him, a part of him that he now accepted.

I actually think when Stefan said "you loved him for the same reason I did" he was referring to his next line: "because we couldn't live without him." But as for your other point, about him owning the darkest parts of himself, I do think Damon encourages that (for better or worse) in everyone around him. Not sure that's what Stefan or Elena "love" about him, but it is true. (I'm going to address the second part of this quote in the Stefan thread.)

I don't know. I can see some of this, but at the same time I think maybe this is giving Oliver both too much and too little credit. :) Is that possible? On the one hand, yes, I can see how his pain could be filtered through his damaged heart to come out with him feeling rejected by Felicity. At the same time, he is a grown man with an overdeveloped guilt complex, and I think he absolutely feels that he was the one who did the hurting in both of those big scenes in 3x01 and 3x02. He knows he was the one who made the decision to end things in The Calm, and that he hurt her. And the editing effed with things here, but I think we're supposed to read that moment in 3x02 that @dancingnancy references above as Felicity sort of imploring him to respond to her, to reach out to her, and he lets that moment pass him by. You can see him regret it as she's walking away. He's aware that he did that. So I don't think he's waiting for her to make another move. He may feel that it's not his place to touch her--and it's NOT, I actually don't want him to do that--but that doesn't excuse being cold to her, making snotty faces, shutting her down, making other people talk to her. That's not about giving her her space, or feeling hurt by her. That's about protecting himself from the pain of being around her when he can't be with her the way he wants to be. I understand it, but it doesn't make it OK, and he's handling this in about the worst possible way. If Felicity knew she was risking their entire friendship when she said yes to that date, she never would have done it. And in 3x03, we saw her trying to be normal and him shutting it down. So it's on him to fix it. I suspect that if this isn't addressed in the one scene Felicity is in at the end of Ep 4, then it will be at some point soon. Because the EPs have to know that this dynamic is not enjoyable to watch.

I completely agree with that. But for whatever reason, I still think they had a spinoff in mind when they created the character. Part of the reason she may have been so sketchily conceived is that they had an idea toward saving her origin story/character journey for her own show (or a shared BoP show). We'll probably never know, because I don't think the EPs would discuss something like that unless it worked out. Anyway, regardless of their intent for her, they've basically screwed up at every turn in her development, and in every one of her relationships. So now, her grief w/r/t Sara rings hollow, because she was basically awful to her for most of last season. That in turn makes her path to vigilantism ring hollow because I just don't believe it. And on and on we go.

I no longer believe they ever actually considered making Sara the Black Canary. I don't think they'd given up on spinning off Laurel as BC after Season 1 or even during Season 2, so they misguidedly brought Sara on to be the first Canary, because of their inheritance obsession. Like all things related to Laurel's progression, it was a terrible idea. Now I think they've given up on the spinoff, they've given up on Lauriver, but they haven't given up on Laurel as BC. It's the last thread for that character, and they're clinging to it with all they've got. It would have been better to let it all go. And who knows. Maybe this will go a different direction than all signs seem to point, but I doubt it.

I strongly suspect that Laurel was included as a character on Arrow because they intended to spin her off onto her own show. It's the only way not bothering to chem-test your two leads makes any sense, and because they're so spinoff-happy, it just makes sense to me. But then they effed up by casting the wrong person, and not thinking clearly about how to write Laurel, as a pre-BC character. So viewers hate her, and now a BC/BoP show is a non-starter. And now we're stuck with her on a show that doesn't have room for her, and they're just going to meta-address every criticism of her character and her potential journey to becoming BC and hope that that covers it. It doesn't.

The scene with Laurel at Verdant was kind of confusing. She was sitting there in her self-pity--I mean, her RAGE and GRIEF--and when Oliver walked in, she seemed surprised to see him, and said something like, "I didn't know the Arrow took vacation days." If she wasn't waiting for Oliver, then why would she have been there at all? And if she was waiting for him, then why the faux-surprise? It just looks manipulative, like she wanted his pity and concern, wanted to shock him with the state of her face. I suppose the explanation could be as simple as "KC doesn't understand how to portray being startled out of a reverie" but if that's the case, I'm tired of having to handwave so often for her.

Before Oliver and Felicity were friends and partners, when she didn't know he was the Arrow yet, he came to her and kindly asked for favors, understood he was putting her out some, even offering that bottle of wine as a thank-you that one time. That's how people treat others they don't know very well when they need a favor. Even once she was in on the secret--when the figurative mask had dropped and he wasn't pretending to be Charming Oliver anymore--he continued to be kind and polite to her, when he wasn't under extreme stress. And when he was rude, he usually recognized it and apologized or reached out in some way after the fact. They have built a relationship, and as you say, they have a mutual understanding of their respect for each other, so if Oliver is short when he needs something, Felicity can probably figure out why and if she doesn't like the reason, she usually calls him on it (Barry stuff, last season) or dishes it back to him. Laurel and Felicity don't have that background to their relationship, hence Felicity questioning her demand for a favor. I too appreciate that the show didn't make them magically become friends during the hiatus, because unlike Felicity and Roy, there are some roadblocks to a friendship between L & F that I don't want just swept under the rug.

And wasn't the heavy implication at the end that Quentin was the "anonymous tip" that led to that guy's arrest? I mean, probably ethically shady when it comes to AA, but at the same time, working within the constraints of the system. Laurel hasn't even tried, and we haven't seen her face any huge, awful instances of evil people getting away scot free (um, except Moira, obviously). I am dumbfounded at how they're handling this, honestly.

I hope that what they're going for with all of these characters isn't an Either/Or but a Both. I think Diggle (and Felicity, to a certain extent) have realized, or are realizing, that it's possible and important, to have a full life. Not just being a part of Team Arrow but hating your day job; not just loving your comrades, but having real love, and family, and a social life outside of that as well.

Right, but

Haha. I'll do a Google Image search occasionally to get my DZ fix. :)

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I think I'll probably stay away for while longer. I'm not interested in Corinthos family drama. The only people I really care about are the Davis girls, Maxie, Patrick, and Dante. And it doesn't sound like I'd be happy with what's going on with any of them right now, so, UGH.

How is that a promotion? Maybe she misspoke?

So what web site are you looking for w/r/t Sherlock?

I love her hair down too. I think EBR pushed for the ponytail in S2, because she felt like it was a part of Felicity's "uniform," at least as far as her Team Arrow activities are concerned, so I wouldn't be surprised if the hair/makeup/wardrobe people are making some conscious decisions as far as changing things up this season.

Yeah, it's a pillow that she's embroidered IC on, with a tree in the middle. For a minute, I thought it meant "Ichabod/Caroline" but then I realized it was probably just meant to be his initials.

Yeah, I think Kat posted a pic of Paul giving her a piggyback ride, and gave photo credit to Phoebe. The TVD/TO casts are so cute.