Carrie Ann

Scattered thoughts: -I thought Felicity making the jab about Oliver not having feelings WAS mean, and it was over the line, and she knew it. I appreciate that the show had her go there, because she's not perfect, and she can hurt him as much as he hurts her. It's important to see that she screws up sometimes. -This is the best EBR has ever been, in my opinion. I've never particularly liked her teary scenes, but I thought she nailed them this episode. -This is also the best SA has ever been. I love how two seasons of carefully measured emotion have earned him the ability to make those tiny moments seem so vulnerable and raw. -I actually liked KC a few times--particularly the scene with just Laurel and Oliver upstairs at Verdant. Credit where credit's due, I thought she did a nice job with that. -Otherwise, I honestly told Laurel to fuck off over and over and over in the last half of the episode. Lance not knowing about his own daughter's death is on Laurel, and no one else. That is disgraceful, given the meta situation where Sara is only dead because of Laurel in the first place. Ugh ugh ugh. -Liked Roy and Felicity being closer. -Didn't like Ray stalking Felicity, but I did like the scene next to the elevator. He seems kind at heart, and that's all I want from him. -Finally, JOHN DIGGLE MVP 4 LYFE.

That was incredibly painful to watch, and I felt almost sick the whole time, but I thought I'd gotten away with no tears until "I don't want to die down here." Ow, my heart.

I'm forgetting all of the interviews at SDCC, but while he said the thing about Felicity being true "this season," repeatedly, here is where he talks about Sara and Laurel.

Stephen's comments all through SDCC were that there was one woman in his life (Felicity) and that they would not be revisiting Sara or Laurel as romantic interests for Oliver. ("The ship has sailed on those relationships.")

It's weird that these three (?) nearly identical interviews are what have really pushed me into the pessimistic category when it comes to this show/this season, but apparently they're the straw. The combination of these quotes--about how Laurel has really "earned" this and how GA needs the BC--plus Sara's death, plus the flimsy reasons for the Olicity switcheroo, plus the Diggle OOC "you were right" speech, plus all the ridiculous stuff the EPs have apparently forgotten or are handwaving about their own show (no one knows that Sara came back to life; Team Arrow is still using the Foundry as its lair; Oliver's puzzling financial status)--has reduced my faith in the writers to just about nothing. They are showing absolutely no evidence that they are concerned about anything feeling true, or real, or earned. They're just moving pieces on a board, willy-nilly, to suit their season/series outline. Just hitting the marks with no regard to character or relationship integrity. And yeah, I shouldn't put much stock in KC's interviews, because she is basically never on the same page as the writers or her castmates, but there is enough in there to make me believe that she's talking about things based on the episodes they've filmed or are filming, and based on what the EPs are telling her, so it's not all just her own headcanon (soulmates, hahahahahahahaha). We're getting Insta-Canary, and that's that.

Yeah, I don't want Oliver to even attempt to hang up the hood. I don't think the resolution is going to be that he chooses to be Oliver Queen only, but that he can be both. That doesn't mean that it's an easy road for the next two (or however many) seasons. I mean, Buffy Summers was constantly trying to reconcile living a normal life with her Slayer duties. It's an ongoing struggle. At this point, Oliver's struggle is to realize that it's even possible, and to want to fight for that life.

Well, technically the orange dress was from the previous day/night, which bled into the next day. But yeah, the multiple outfit changes made it really hard to figure out the timeline from the sneak peeks before the episode aired. And the time passage was really confusing from Felicity waking up in the Foundry, to Oliver going out and tangling with Vertigo/Himself, to the scene in the Foundry before the meeting at QC. Initially, I thought that was all one very, very long night. This should definitely have been a two-part premiere to give this stuff room to breathe and to improve flow and coherence.

[in response to the idea from the S6E2 episode thread that Enzo and Damon's relationship is as deep as the writers want us to believe] I mean, at this point, I guess it's more important to CD and JP to draw this crap out than it is to maintain the integrity and depth of any of the relationships on this show, so if you want to believe Enzo is closer to and has a deeper relationship with Damon than Stefan does, for all I know, you're right. But he shouldn't. That's selling out the most important relationship on this whole crapfest, and it was the one relationship I wanted to be strong when all of this ended, but instead Stefan/Damon's bond has been weakened every single season. They were in a better place at the end of Season 1 when they'd just stopped trying to kill each other than they were at any point in Season 5. They barely interacted, and when they did, they were OOC. So, you know, whatever, Enzo is the bestest BFF ever, sure. I actually don't think that's what JP and CD intend to depict, but it's not an invalid reading of the situation, in my opinion. Damon certainly seemed more concerned about getting Enzo back at the end of S5 than he did about getting Stefan back at the beginning of S5.

Replying in the Relationships thread.

Here's the thing: Tommy didn't actually have to die to put Oliver on a better path. There are--as I keep saying because I'm so sad and bitter about Sara--numerous other narrative choices that could be made that could still have had impact on Oliver. He could have been gravely injured, and Oliver could still have been shocked into a new mental state. It could have been that Thea saw him kill someone, and was horrified and disgusted, and Oliver realized he couldn't be that person anymore. No narrative choice is "necessary." They're all choices, and some are worse than others. I have no beef with their choice to kill Tommy because in my opinion (and this is probably not popular), he didn't serve much purpose anymore and I wasn't particularly interested in his journey. He wouldn't have been useful to Team Arrow, so he would have only been involved as a loved one of other characters. Which is fine, but not a great use of the show's budget, when they all have other good friends who are integrated into the storyline. Now they could have gone somewhere with him and Malcolm, I guess, but eh. Sara, on the other hand, was on a fascinating journey and was a complex character with all sorts of story to mine. But oh well, because she had the wrong name.

Seriously. We missed a lot in the hiatus, obviously, but the crazy pacing of this episode still made it feel like whiplash. Like, they've been building toward this for five months, buying beds and ferns and touching faces and shit, and he STILL hadn't made his move, but he finally did and all it took was one little thing to make him swerve all the way back around? "If the last 12 hours have taught me anything." Oh really? Twelve hours in your life, which were frankly not much crazier than any other day of your crazy life, and you're going to just cash out and walk away? If someone had posited this series of events in the hiatus, I would have said, "Nah, that wouldn't be enough to do it. It'd have to be something bigger than that." Because Oliver spent five months struggling with his feelings for Felicity, wanting to do something about them but thinking it wasn't "the right time," and if he finally decided that it was, I don't think that would be such a light decision that he could flip back on it so quickly. He would have thought through all of these possibilities; he would take steps to avoid pitfalls like losing his focus. And he would do these things not to protect himself but to protect Felicity, and what they already have. Which is why the kiss and the "don't ask me" line, while gorgeous, and while I've watched them *mumble mumble* times, still leave me puzzled and sad. It just doesn't feel right to me. It doesn't feel like the Oliver I love. The Oliver I love would probably have just been silent when she asked him to say Never; or he would have said something like, "I can't; I'm sorry." That might not seem like a huge difference to some people, but it is to me.

From The Bet: Gina: Rosa! Why are you sequestered by this old cell phone? Diaz: I'm avoiding Boyle and his truth bombs. ... He keeps saying he wants to talk to me. I'm afraid he's gonna tell me he loves me or propose marriage or something. Gina: Oh, my God. That makes me kind of want to cry. Diaz: He dove in front of those bullets - for me. I can't be mean to him. I watched him make coffee for 28 minutes this morning. But I also can't lead him on. Gina: Captain Holt told me not to let him get hurt tonight, so I'll keep him away from you. (Seconds later) Boyle: Have you seen Rosa?

(In reference to Oliver having scotch at dinner:) To clarify, Oliver does drink, sometimes (examples off the top of my head: vodka with Diggle, vodka with Isabel in Russia, vodka with Isabel at the Queen mansion party). It's Stephen Amell who believes that Oliver wouldn't drink and he said he fights the producers on that sometimes. This is driving me crazy. Seriously, Oliver, this is "your" crusade? Diggle and Felicity (and Roy, and everyone) aren't your partners anymore? I wouldn't even care if Oliver said that, if Diggle hadn't validated it in the end. Not that I think it's going to last, but the end of this season better be Oliver realizing that he's not actually the center of everyone else's universe.

Yeah, that's exactly my thing, too. If you want grave danger and high stakes, you can do several things besides killing characters. You can have them disappear, so that locating and saving them is a long-term mystery and a constant source of tension, emotion, and conflict about how far someone will go to save a loved one. You can have them injured, seriously, in a way that affects them and all of their relationships (see Fitz on AoS, the comic book show that used to be my punching bag, before this nonsense on Arrow, FFS). Having Thea go off with her father is actually a good example of a non-death way that another character's journey can dramatically, emotionally devastate our hero. Having Sara disappear, and having Nyssa and Laurel (and everyone else of course) spend the season trying to get her back would have been a more interesting and effective way to put Laurel on this path. And in the end, if they found Sara and still wanted to go with Laurel as BC, they could have had Sara and Nyssa retire for their own safety and happiness and let Laurel continue on her new path. Killing Sara is, as with Moira before her, a short-sighted plan with limited story/character payoff, and it will not end up being worth it for the story possibilities they end up losing. And who's left? Who will be next when they need a cheap and dirty way to create angst? Lyla? The baby?

Do we think it's at all possible that Laurel is going to be a villain/dark, at least for awhile? I'm trying to figure out what MG or AK meant when they said that Sara's fridging would put Laurel on her awesome path, and that it was a trajectory the show had never explored. So how is it different? We've seen Roy train and apprentice under Oliver to become a hero; we've seen Oliver and Sara return to Starling as fully-formed vigilantes trying to right wrongs; we're going to see Thea training under a madman, so her morality is in question. What's left? What would be a different trajectory for the Black Canary? (It should go without saying at this point, but I don't actually care about Laurel's trajectory in any way, no matter what. But if the writers believe that her choosing to take up her sister's mantle and be a Special Selfless Warrior Princess is somehow an interesting angle, they are even dumber than I thought.)

I found it sort of funny in that scene with Sara and Laurel, when Sara says, "This life--it's complicated," and Laurel says (with a big dumb smile on her face), "We didn't want you to choose it." It's almost like the writers had to say that to wave off the other Big Dumb Smile scene between them in the finale, where Laurel seemed more than happy to see her sister back off to join the LoA. Because, jacket! So all of Laurel's tears this season will seem empty and false to me, just like everything else about that character. I'm so frustrated that the writers can't seem to come up with alternate storytelling devices than murder. I know it's a show with high stakes, but there are stakes other than death. There are high drama scenarios that don't require killing another beloved (in this case female & queer) character.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic about him being sure. I agree that he's not sure, and that he's not going to really be able to only be the Arrow. But kissing Felicity and saying that to her was selfish, and I'd prefer he be more careful and thoughtful about that when it comes to her.

Back with further thoughts, but still none regarding Sara because there's just sad blankness there now. So I'm this huge Oliver fan, right, and I can usually understand his thinking and why he makes the stupid mistakes he makes, etc. And while I loved every Olicity scene tonight, the more I think about him kissing her and saying "Don't tell me to say I don't love you," the more mad I get. Like. Are you serious? What was the goal there? He'd made his decision; he's all sure about it. The least he owes her is what she asked--that he say "never" instead of "maybe." I'm rooting for Felicity + As Many Other Dudes or Dudettes As She Can Possibly Get With at this point, while Oliver cries a river of manpain.

OK, I still can't think coherently, and I feel kind of sick. But on a positive note, Felicity/EBR were SO adorable in this ep. Like, peak awesome. "And I've already seen you shirtless. Multiple times. Shirtless. All the time."

Fuck.

I think it's just a general assumption, because of low ratings and the shortened season order this year. I think this is it. FWIW, a friend of mine is an editor for the show, and he's making it sound pretty final. But on a happier note, he mentioned that the cast and crew genuinely enjoy each other and that he felt really lucky to have had that experience with those people. (He's worked on other shows that weren't so pleasant.)

No, I know that. I'm hoping that he feels like he can maybe ease up on some of that stuff at some point.

Then we're both ridiculous together because I had the exact same reaction. Stephen, go home and sleep. I hope everyone on that set looks out for him the way he tries to look out for them. Also, I wonder if he could stop doing cons--or stick to like just SDCC and another couple of the bigger ones and skip everything else.

That's really splitting hairs and ignoring the point of that comment (that Oliver was the Hood in S1 and the Arrow in S2), and we're just going in circles. The show, its creators, and the majority of people posting in this thread believe that the team consists of three people (see the intro post at the top of every page); that it started being a true team when the three of them gelled as a unit, and that they are the core of that team regardless of other additions. You think Felicity's importance is overstated. Message absolutely received.

I thought the aggressive ignorance was the joke?