Robin Hood: He Owes a Great Debt to Everyone

[Camera One]

If he's just going to be in the forest for two episodes, why bother even bringing him to the Underworld.  Surely, as a regular, he expects to give him a subplot at least, no?  But we're getting down to the wire, so I don't see how they press pause and give us some completely irrelevant thing for Robin Hood to work through (never mind, it's TSTW/This Show These Writers).

Edited April 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Mari]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

He could have gone with them, but he wanted to stay with Regina. He left a defenseless child with a rapist in favor of staying with his girlfriend, who was capable of handling herself. What was Robin going to do if something happened that Regina or anyone else there couldn't? 

Neal had the same issue. Writers didn't give a crap what he thought. 

(Moved from the spoiler thread.)

You know what's a bigger problem for me than leaving her with his rapist?  Leaving her with the mentally ill woman who murdered his wife.

The rapist thing is despicable.  I am not trying to excuse that.  However, what puts Pistachio in more danger is that Zelena is not exactly playing with her cards all in order.  Given her history, what's to say Zelena doesn't decide that Pistachio crying and spitting up on Zelena, but not someone else, means that Pistachio is yet another traitor who loves someone else more, and therefore needs to be punished or eliminated?

It's the same issue I have with his easy fall into a relationship with Regina.  No matter how bold and audacious her  . . . personality . . . is , this is a woman who is most famous for murdering her previous husband, and terrorizing and attempting to murder her stepdaughter

If you love your children in a more than superficial accessory way, you are going to take their safety more seriously than that.

[Camera One]

There was also no reason for Robin NOT to accompany Zelena and Hades to the cemetery first.  Except for plot reasons.  Since they needed to give us that twist of Rumple taking Robin's heart but totally not using it.

[Mathius]

So Robin is now not just dead, but his soul is wiped from existence.  

Damn.  Did Sean Maguire piss the writers off, or did they just come to really hate Robin?

[Curio]

Of course the one episode where they finally give Robin a personality and allow him to argue with Regina is the moment they decide to kill him off. Why couldn't they have had him act like that all the time??

[shoregirl]

Poor Robin..maybe this will teach the heroes a lesson,if someone tries to kill Regina maybe let her fend for herself , not only does she have magic she's the freaking evil queen so can probably help herself. Robin has twice taken an attack meant for Regina and now Roland and little Pistachio have no daddy. Well Roland has Little John who he's probably spent more time with.

[YaddaYadda]

Even Arthur got more closure than Robin did. I loved Arthur even in all his shadyness, and asshatry, but man, that must really suck for anyone who really enjoyed/loved Robin.

[Rumsy4]

I really disliked that the writers "ended" Robin Hood. Why not just say something like anyone killed by the Crystals moves on directly to the /afterlife, without stopping in Underbrooke? I never thought much of the character, but it's not fair. No characters besides Robin and Hades have been written off this permanently by the Show. I mean, he can't even come back as a ghost!

ETA: Also, I have to add, the death-scene was rather cringeworthy. Something was really off either in the acting or directing choices, or both.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

When Hades told Regina she would be joining Robin soon, I briefly had a flash of hope that Robin's soul wasn't really gone. I'm sure he meant she would be joining him in a state of non-existence, but usually joining someone who is dead infers going to the afterlife with them. Zeus seemed super happy about his brother being both dead and wiped out of existence. I don't know, perhaps Hades was lying about the crystal's powers, but then we saw Robin's soul evaporate, so probably not. But I won't complain if it gets undone. 

[KingOfHearts]

A&E didn't think about the implications of Robin's character. It's like the "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie" book. They always tried to fix their missteps by replacing them with more missteps. They dug further and further down the rabbit hole. First, Robin Hood was dating the Evil Queen. Well, they couldn't have Robin questioning Regina (we know now that ends in immediate death), so they added Marian in the mix for drama. But, since Robin making a choice wasn't "juicy" or "interesting" enough, Adultery Queen was born. After the backlash for that, the writers came up with Zarian and decided to add Pistachio. Not wanting to take the focus off Regina, they framed it as a Wicked vs. Evil revenge plot. After sucking out every part of Robin's character, they killed him. He is the textbook example of a character literally sacrificed for Regina.

Regina never needed a prop. (She's got plenty.) She needed someone to challenge her. Zelena has done that far more than Robin ever has. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Quote

Zeus seemed super happy about his brother being both dead and wiped out of existence.

Not really, he looked happy that his brother's reign of terror was over, but not about him being dead.  He had the sad pause, somewhat glum expression, and use of the word "misguided" to show that.  I think he, much like Zelena, regretted that Hades never changed.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Knowing that they were planning to kill Robin Hood off and that this was his last half-season, it was really insulting for A&E to send Robin to the offscreen forest for several episodes.  They didn't even bother giving him anything meaty, or actually, anything at all.  Even his final episode hardly gave him anything of substance.  

Edited May 9, 2016 by Camera One

[Serena]

I just can't understand the reasoning. Robin was there. They had the actor. It created more writing problems to have to contrive a way for Robin NOT to be part of the adventure (he was taking care of a newborn in the woods?), then simply to have him be there. What was the reason for him to disappear for so many episodes? Unless the actor asked for time off, which I don't think he did?

[RedKeep]

I thought the whole episode was poorly written and made little to no sense at many different points, but boy... they really made sure those who cared about Robin and Outlaw Queen are gonna rage-quit this show. They had friggin Cora go to the heavenly afterlife, but Robin Hood gets no afterlife at all? Okay... And it doesn't matter anymore that they're often likely more clueless than intentionally offensive, at some point you gotta grow up, acknowledge your mistakes and learn from them. But the writing not only for Robin Hood, but also for Zelena made it obvious again Horowitz and Kitsis are never going to change. Makes you worry for whoever they'll end up screwing over next season because they suddenly consider him/her very much expendable.

[Curio]

I never really cared about Robin's character and felt like he could have been replaced with a giant Fathead sticker most of the time, but even I want to see his soul move on to the afterlife. Can that be Regina's mission next season? She should figure out a way to find Robin's obliterated soul and set it off to the light. It's the least she can do after Robin's rapist gets to stay alive and become BFFs with his soulmate.

[Amerilla]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

Knowing that they were planning to kill Robin Hood off and that this was his last half-season, it was really insulting for A&E to send Robin to the offscreen forest for several episodes.  They didn't even bother giving him anything meaty, or actually, anything at all.  Even his final episode hardly gave him anything of substance.  

They MRJ'd him. Once they know they're killing a character off - a decision they probably made over the summer at the annual plotting "boot camp" - they stopped investing anything him. In their minds, and against all logic of TV as a visual medium, telling is as good as showing, and they're going to let the other characters tell us how critical, how beloved Robin was by all, so why waste time fleshing that out?

It's sad. Sean and MRJ are talented actors. They were endlessly enthusiastic about the show, they seemed to get along well with the main cast, and they did their best to work with the very thin material they got. They deserved to go out on a high note, but they couldn't, because in the minds of the showrunners, they were just catalysts for the angst of other characters. 

[YaddaYadda]

I think a lot of us had a bit of an inkling that Robin was a dead man walking from pretty much the first episode of season 5. But 5x02 was a glaring neon sign. The thing is, nothing was ever about Robin. He wasn't allowed a real reaction at Marian's death in the old timeline, his rape by Zelena wasn't about him, and the baby had nothing to do with him. He wasn't even allowed to express some joy at becoming a father again, you know, lemons into lemonade.

I never really noticed that Robin wasn't there in episodes until someone brought it up, and that's how little impact the character had. And honestly, the way they were writing Regina in season 3, she did not need a love interest. 

And the writers weren't interested in developing him. They had 2 seasons and half to do something decent with him. They chose not to. 

And they just kept doubling down on the mistakes by trying to fix whatever mess they had created. The whole thing was like a slow motion train wreck. I think Robin was done the second they decided to bring Zelena back. I think that's really what put a nail in the character's coffin.

But seriously, the way he died, how his soul was basically obliterated? There's zero comfort in that. He didn't go to a better place. He just stopped existing, and I can't help but read something behind it from the writers (not as it related to Sean, but as it related to the character. Sean is very lovely, and I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with him).

This show though, they need to stop bringing in characters if they're not going to use them properly. They don't need such a large cast, and 20 million guest stars. They have everything they need to write a good story. They're just very creatively bankrupt.

[Camera One]

By killing off Robin Hood, they're basically showing once again that it was never about Robin, it was about Regina's growth, and seeing how she handles loss.  We saw how she reverted briefly when she found out at Marian, and now we will see if the support of her BFFs Emma, Zelena and Snow will get her through Robin's death.

By skipping all the character dilemmas and progression that Robin would have needed to make to fall in love with Regina, they were basically left with a character that they could do nothing with.  He accepted Regina much too quickly, brushed aside her dark history, was hardly conflicted when faced with his departed wife, and hardly got a response for the rape and finding out the real Marian died.  

Even the regular good guys, A&E hardly know what to do with them.  And Robin after his character destruction had even less to work with than Snowing, Red, etc.  Thinking about Neal, there were still a number of interesting avenues his character could have gone, several relationships to further explore, a more mysterious backstory, and a lot more unfinished business.  

What I'm most angry about is his soul getting obliterated.  That was just unnecessarily mean.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, Serena said:

What was the reason for him to disappear for so many episodes?

It's the same thing they did with Neal. He was barely there in the arc where he died. As I mentioned in a different thread, I think the writers wanted the death to be impactful in the short term to fuel the next plot momentum, but not impactful enough in the long-term. They don't want us to miss Robin too much. Hence his absence from most scenes in 5B. It's a weird way to deal with character death.

57 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What I'm most angry about is his soul getting obliterated.  That was just unnecessarily mean.

Agree. 

[Joanh23]

I liked Robin and OutlawQueen in S3 but S4 really killed it for me and especially when they didn't let Robin react to the fact that Regina killed Marian in the original timeline - I was really excited going into S4 thinking about how we'd really get stuck into their relationship and instead we got Operation Mongoose - S4 was such a missed opportunity.  I feel sorry for Sean coz he seems like a really nice guy but his character was just there to prop up Regina.

[HoodlumSheep]

Fair well, Robin Hood. Farewell. Poor Sean. Robin was so bland, that I won't really miss him though; he deserved better development and a better end.

And yeah, he totally got MRJ'd. 

[Curio]

And now we'll never know if Robin was aware of Regina parading Marian around with a bag on her head.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Curio

[Arnella]

Quote

And now we'll never know if Robin was aware of Regina parading Marian around with a bag on her head.

Good because I'd throw up in my mouth a little when they made it out to be ok with him because "Regina has changed" and is good now.  Remember Emma was apologizing for saving Marian's life because it slightly inconvenienced Regina's dating life about an hour after watching Regina laugh as she burned her mother alive.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Arnella

[scenicbyway]

Reading the tvline article it would appear there was no love lost between a&e and Sean.  His expectations with Robin's last show were not met with him alluding to many scenes that were cut.  I still think they erred on the side of not going the super emotional route with Robin and Roland.  And instead stuck with a shocked Regina since it will be her story moving forward.

 

Whatever happened in the story to cause Robin's exit, it doesn't appear that Sean knew it was coming until half way through shooting the season because it didn't seem like he would've moved his family to Vancouver for a short stint.  He was supposed to be a series regular this season but I think he had more screen time as a recurring character in season 4. 

[Camera One]

The lesson on this show is you never want to be "promoted" to series regular.  Red in Season 2, Neal in Season 3, Will in Season 4, and now Robin in Season 5.  50% sidelined, 50% cannon fodder.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

I guess one could argue Jamie Dornan in Season 1 if we want to include every season. Season 6 might end up being the first season where they don't arbitrarily add on a new regular cast member. And if they do, we know who's dying next year!

[Camera One]

The only person I can think of starts with the letter Z.  Which is rich considering who died.  Once again, the victim dies and the perpetrator remains.

[Curio]

Isn't Bex already a regular cast member this year? It seems like the writers looked at Robin and Zelena, remembered they hate writing for good guys but love writing for villains, and decided to ice the boring one because ABC demanded they cut down on the regular cast members.

[Camera One]

Oh yeah, she is.  I had no idea.  Not a surprise given her screentime.  Talk about disproportionate considering both Robin and Zelena were upped to series regular at the same time.

[KAOS Agent]

But even from the very start the writers said that Robin and Marian both were there to further Regina's story. They gave an interview pre-season 4 where they explicitly said that. They were honest from the start and Robin's role played out exactly as they said it would. Even his death happened to further Regina's story and is what they consider her karmic payback. Robin never existed as a real character to them. He was always a prop. At least they were honest about it.

[Mathius]

Quote

I guess one could argue Jamie Dornan in Season 1 if we want to include every season.

No, I would say Raphael Sbarge (Archie Hopper).  Bet you didn't even remember he was technically a Regular, did you?

[Curio]

4 minutes ago, Mathius said:

No, I would say Raphael Sbarge (Archie Hopper).  Bet you didn't even remember he was technically a Regular, did you?

Heh, I did remember he was a regular, but went with Dornan instead because I actually know how to spell his name. 

[Mathius]

More of Sean Maguire, free and unrestricted, spilling truth:

Quote

One of the things that was a little tough was that the character never really got an opportunity to get fully fleshed out or explore some of the things that were alluded to in the writing. That’s where looking at next projects, you sit down with the producers or the writers and say “what is the plan? I’d like to know what you guys intend,” but that’s difficult because sometimes the writers don’t know where they’re going to go.

[Curio]

I feel for Sean. I bet he never thought in a million years that when he signed on to play Robin Hood, he'd be reduced to a guy who hangs out in the background, barely speaks, and holds his girlfriend's purse for two years.

[Rumsy4]

Well, I hope A&E can take some truth tea from the actors (Socha, Maguire, etc.), and learn not to use egregiously misuse characters. 

[YaddaYadda]

We already knew A&E were flying by the seam of their pants. They're just filling in the blanks while they wait for the network to tell them when the last season is, so that they can write it since they at least have an idea how it ends.

I think Sean was expecting the same treatment for his character that Colin got for Hook, especially since both Robin and Hook are the love interests of the 2 main characters. It didn't go that way. The difference though is that Hook was integrated almost right away with his feud with Rumple, and because he was a bad guy, whereas Robin had none of those connections.

[Curio]

11 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think Sean was expecting the same treatment for his character that Colin got for Hook, especially since both Robin and Hook are the love interests of the 2 main characters. It didn't go that way. The difference though is that Hook was integrated almost right away with his feud with Rumple, and because he was a bad guy, whereas Robin had none of those connections.

The thing is that the writers could have integrated Robin better, but they chose not to. Robin could have easily had a past with Regina where he stole from her castle and was a thorn in her side for years. We could have been shown flashbacks where Robin runs into the Evil Queen while he's stealing from her, but every time he escapes, some crazy or lucky thing happens that stops Regina from arresting him. We could have been shown how Robin was a mentor to Snow in the forest, partnered with her for a few missions, and improved her archery skills.

If the writers were able to randomly create Zelena's story out of thin air in Season 3 and keep her around for the long-haul, they could have done the same with Robin. But they didn't because Robin was never really an important character to them, he was just a plot device to move along Regina's story. That's why he wasn't given the same treatment as Colin—Hook can stand on his own as a unique and interesting character even without Emma by his side. Robin doesn't exist without Regina.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Curio

[TheGreenKnight]

I think the reason they were never interested in Robin was because he was a good guy, whereas Zelena and Hook are villains. It's not really surprising that Emma and Hook got the most screentime in the season where they both became darker characters with the Dark Swan arc.

Spoiler

Maybe that's why Regina's next love interest looks to be a villain (Jekyll/Hyde), so they might have more interest in writing for the character than they ever did for Robin.

Edited May 10, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I think the reason they were never interested in Robin was because he was a good guy, whereas Zelena and Hook are villains.

What's weird is that the writers tried to make it seem like Robin had this dark past, and even a few episodes ago Zelena alluded to the fact that Robin was a villain on par with Regina, but they never did anything with it.

[Shanna Marie]

I kind of suspect that the reason they were never all that interested in writing for Robin was that he was a sop to Lana's requests for a love interest for Regina. They weren't actually planning on that and didn't come up with the idea on their own. But, for whatever reason, they seem to give her what she wants (a love interest, a perfect relationship with Henry) regardless of how it works in the story. Then because they weren't all that invested in this character or the relationship, his very existence boiled down to something the writers did care about, which was how Regina was affected. They aren't really interested in making Regina do the tough work of growing, so they couldn't use his "rob from the rich to feed the poor" past and put it in conflict with her being the queen and they couldn't work with the conflict coming from her being the person who separated him from his wife. They weren't interested in writing the relationship, so they threw pixie dust at it and declared them soulmates. They are interested in Regina being a sad victim and in her teetering on the brink of reverting to evil, so they separated them and then killed him. The reason Hook is different was that he was a character they came up with (well, they came up with the idea of adding Captain Hook to the cast and developed their version of the character), and they planned the relationship, so they're invested in him and in the relationship.

Their lack of interest was really obvious when Robin didn't even get a send-off centric episode. His only flashback episodes were more about his intersection with other people (Rumple and Belle, Zelena and Rumple, the near-miss with Regina). We never really saw a Robin Hood story.

[Camera One]

I think the reason they were never interested in Robin was because he was a good guy, whereas Zelena and Hook are villains.

This is definitely the main reason.  What these writers like to write are redemption arcs.  Anyone who doesn't have a redemption arc has very little to do.  The only exception is Emma, but she has her Walls.

[Mathius]

50 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is definitely the main reason.  What these writers like to write are redemption arcs.  Anyone who doesn't have a redemption arc has very little to do.  The only exception is Emma, but she has her Walls.

And even Emma seems like she's only written for out of obligation, I don't sense the writers having a passion for her character. 

[Serena]

17 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think Sean was expecting the same treatment for his character that Colin got for Hook, especially since both Robin and Hook are the love interests of the 2 main characters. It didn't go that way. The difference though is that Hook was integrated almost right away with his feud with Rumple, and because he was a bad guy, whereas Robin had none of those connections.

Also the fact that Hook is allowed to call Emma out, making their relationship deeper and him a more fully fleshed out character. Robin, however, was only there to validate Regina and give her a shiny perfect boyfriend. He was an object for Regina to have, not a real character. Just compare how Hook got to react to his ex Milah being murdered vs how Robin DIDN'T get to react to Marian being murdered.

[RedKeep]

The Milah/Marian comparison doesn't really work for me, though, since the show made sure the blame for her death ultimately lay with Rumple both times - not Emma. Horowitz and Kitsis just wrote themselves into a corner with the way they added Marian to the s3 finale and then their half-hearted attempts to fix it in season 4 only made it worse. It sparked a whole new controversy with the rapist Marilena angle they were never interested in dealing with since they likely already started planning her "redemption" at that point. So they did what they always do in these situations and just refused to address it altogether - even if they had to throw their own characters under the bus for it. I wouldn't even be surprised if Robin was already a goner in their minds at that point. Writing for him had become too much of a nuisance and a constant reminder of their own net of mistakes.

[Arnella]

Quote

Well, I hope A&E can take some truth tea from the actors (Socha, Maguire, etc.), and learn not to use egregiously misuse characters. 

They don't care. Remember when they were on some panel and JMo gently asked them to write more relationship scenes and they just make fun of her dismissively in front of all the fans.

Quote

So Robin is now not just dead, but his soul is wiped from existence.  Damn.  Did Sean Maguire piss the writers off, or did they just come to really hate Robin?

I don't think they cared about the actor or the character at all.  I think it was merely a matter of killing off an extraneous character with the bonus of renewed focus on Woegina BUT no soul means they don't have make the effort to write a scene explaining why they aren't going back to the underworld to go get him like they did for Emma's boyfriend.

[Mathius]

Quote

They don't care. Remember when they were on some panel and JMo gently asked them to write more relationship scenes and they just make fun of her dismissively in front of all the fans.

No, I don't.  When did this happen?  So they'll cater to Lana Parilla but not to the one playing the actual lead?

Edited May 12, 2016 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, Arnella said:

I don't think they cared about the actor or the character at all.  I think it was merely a matter of killing off an extraneous character with the bonus of renewed focus on Woegina BUT no soul means they don't have make the effort to write a scene explaining why they aren't going back to the underworld to go get him like they did for Emma's boyfriend.

I think you're likely right. But with this arguably "bold" choice to obliterate the character, A&E can't keep pretending this Show is about hope. What kind of hope are they peddling when people like Cora get to heaven, and people like Robin get deleted from existence? 

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, they can and will continue to insist the show is about hope.  Look at how far Zelena has gone!

[Arnella]

Quote

Unfortunately, they can and will continue to insist the show is about hope.  Look at how far Zelena has gone!

The denial is strong with A&E.  Here are some truth videos for them about their beloved Regina.  They will still insist that she deserves a happy ending with a true love anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC0WD7iDH9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccsJNSlxdz4

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q8bNfc5pGs

[Camera One]

Because A&E were not interested in him.  Heroes = boring.  It also conflicts with their arc for a redeemed Regina and now a redeemed Zelena.  

For example, we know that Robin and Will had a falling out. I don't recall if that was ever even covered on the show at all other than to say that Will used to be one of the Merry Men.

It was covered in an episode of the spinoff show "Once Upon a Time in Wonderland".