Because I'm Eeeee-viiilllllll: The Villains Thread

[Blergh]

On 3/9/2020 at 11:15 AM, Spartan Girl said:

With Max von Sydow's passing, shall we have a moment of silence for Ming the Merciless?

And not only did von Syndow EASILY outact virtually every other cast member (Topol excepted), but HIS Ming was SO brilliant that, despite the last words he said, Ming NEVER came back for a sequel! RIP, Herr von Syndow.

[Spartan Girl]

One of the better examples of Disney having a likable and nuanced villain was John Silver in the underrated Treasure Planet. Actually Long John Silver has always been one of the more stranger, complex villains because even though he was a greedy evil treacherous pirate, he did care about Jim Hawkins in his own twisted way.

The Jim/Silver relationship was really well done in Treasure Planet. That version of Silver wasn't completely evil, so his redemption doesn't feel that forced.

[Wiendish Fitch]

I think one of the most brilliantly complex "villain apologia" films is Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

The titular Baby Jane (the always great Bette Davis) is a washed-up, long forgotten former child star whom time has not treated kindly in terms of looks or sanity. Jane lives with wheelchair bound older sister, ex-starlet Blanche (Joan Crawford, Davis's real-life nemesis), and is basically the caretaker from Hell. Jane screams at Blanche, smacks her around, starves her, forges her name to sign checks... and those are the least horrifying of Jane's deeds (trust me, they get much, much worse)! As her insanity and cruelty escalate, our sympathies are naturally with poor, tormented, vulnerable Blanche.

Early in the film, we see a car accident take place 25 years in the past, and we quickly deduce it's the accident that crippled Blanche. Other characters say (and we also naturally assume) Jane was behind the wheel, and she cruelly tried to murder her more successful sister. What a psycho bitch, right?

Spoiler

Except in the end, Blanche reveals the truth: Blanche was the one behind the wheel, and she was trying to kill Jane. Blanche (being bitch and an idiot) hit the gate Jane was standing near instead, injuring herself as a result. Jane was drunk that night, so she doesn't remember, so Blanche convinced her (and everyone else) that she had tried to run Blanche over. So not only is Blanche an attempted murderer, she cruelly gaslit her sister into thinking she'd committed a crime that she didn't commit, and basically forced her into being Blanche's chambermaid and nurse. Why did she do all this? Because Jane had been mocking her at a party that night! No wonder Jane disintegrated into madness! 

It's not only villain apologia done well, but it's a great twist that makes good, logical sense (please take notes, Game of Thrones writers).

[Blergh]

Very good summation, Wiendish!

 

Let's not forget the one who helped plant the seeds of all this dysfunction, their bio dad Mr. Hudson who exploited Jane's singing from an early age dragging her from stage to stage all over the nation, sold creepy dolls in her image for (then) exorbitant prices, indulged her tantrums BUT would project his frustrations for said tantrums out on Blanche who he otherwise neglected and considered useless baggage to drag- along with Mrs. Hudson! It's not for nothing that the very first image of the movie had him creepily tell a scared little girl not to cry! YEESH!

[Spartan Girl]

So if I may go back to villain apologia that sucks, I watched the Child's Play remake for free last week. You know if it had been an original movie about an AI doll going haywire, it would have been better. I love and respect Mark Hamill and he clearly had a ball making this movie...but I bet he would have more fun playing Chucky the way he was supposed to be: a pure evil foul-mouthed human trapped in a doll's body.

Because turn Chucky into a tragically malfunctioning doll who becomes obsessed with being Andy's only friend?! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! That is NOT Chucky! It never was! He isn't supposed to be sympathetic, he NEVER had any remotely redeeming character aspects!

Yes, the original Chucky franchise is dumb garbage, but it is OUR dumb garbage. 

The only thing the remake did any better was make the doll design uglier than the original. And even that fails because the best thing about original Chucky (before his Frankenstein Scarface makeover) was how innocent looking the doll face was. It made it even more scarier, because nobody suspects the cute little doll. He doesn't look overtly ugly and creepy until he comes to life. So making him ugly and creepy looking from the get go takes that away.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Mabinogia]

19 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

So making him ugly and creepy looking from the get go takes that away.

That is how I felt about the Annabelle doll from all the Conjuring movies. The real Annabelle was just your standard Raggedy Ann doll, and I get why they couldn't use that image but they should have made the movie doll prettier. All I could think through all the movies was what child psychopath in training would want that horrifying looking doll? 

 

[proserpina65]

On 3/28/2020 at 10:33 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

I think one of the most brilliantly complex "villain apologia" films is Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

The titular Baby Jane (the always great Bette Davis) is a washed-up, long forgotten former child star whom time has not treated kindly in terms of looks or sanity. Jane lives with wheelchair bound older sister, ex-starlet Blanche (Joan Crawford, Davis's real-life nemesis), and is basically the caretaker from Hell. Jane screams at Blanche, smacks her around, starves her, forges her name to sign checks... and those are the least horrifying of Jane's deeds (trust me, they get much, much worse)! As her insanity and cruelty escalate, our sympathies are naturally with poor, tormented, vulnerable Blanche.

Early in the film, we see a car accident take place 25 years in the past, and we quickly deduce it's the accident that crippled Blanche. Other characters say (and we also naturally assume) Jane was behind the wheel, and she cruelly tried to murder her more successful sister. What a psycho bitch, right?

  Reveal spoiler

Except in the end, Blanche reveals the truth: Blanche was the one behind the wheel, and she was trying to kill Jane. Blanche (being bitch and an idiot) hit the gate Jane was standing near instead, injuring herself as a result. Jane was drunk that night, so she doesn't remember, so Blanche convinced her (and everyone else) that she had tried to run Blanche over. So not only is Blanche an attempted murderer, she cruelly gaslit her sister into thinking she'd committed a crime that she didn't commit, and basically forced her into being Blanche's chambermaid and nurse. Why did she do all this? Because Jane had been mocking her at a party that night! No wonder Jane disintegrated into madness! 

It's not only villain apologia done well, but it's a great twist that makes good, logical sense (please take notes, Game of Thrones writers).

Idk, I still think Jane is worse than Blanche.  If I'd have been Blanche, I'd have tried to kill her too.  She was awful to Blanche prior to then.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Re: Current Chucky and Annabelle:

I agree, the dolls are so hideous, I doubt Wednesday Addams would want to play with them! Lilo's doll Scrump was ugly, but Ugly Dolls ugly, not nightmare-inducing!

Sorry to be a cantankerous old fart, but that's my issue with a lot of current horror films: the tone is always all wrong, and they think an ugly aesthetic automatically makes it scary. Um, no. Midsommar was one of 2019's most visually gorgeous films... which maKes the  horrific, gruesome events all the more terrifying, because awful things are happening in this beautiful place.

Back to villains, one can't stress enough how uniquely evil the cult members in Midsommar are. Manipulative, twisted sickos

Spoiler

who aren't above torture, rape, and murdering people in the slowest, most painful way imaginable.

Seriously, Midsommar is tied with Audition as the scariest film I've ever seen.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Wiendish Fitch

[Spartan Girl]

So I finally watched Lindsay Ellis' Phantom of the Opera videos and she did a great analysis of his character arc and why people can't help pitying him despite his horrendous acts, although she points out that no movie version or even the musical ever comes close to addressing the complexity of his character as well as the original novel did. At worst, he's a serial killer, but at best (using the term "best" loosely) he's a self-centered petulant child that stopped emotionally aging due to the abuse he took for his disfigurement, angrily lashing out at everyone he thinks wronged him. Which makes his releasing Christine not only his one good deed, but also his first act of emotional maturity, thinking of someone else instead of himself. Not that it makes up for everything.

She also brilliantly takes down the horrible Gerard Butler movie version. One example is how it alters some of the suspense of the stage show, which kind of ruins him as a villain. In the stage show, you don't really realize how dangerous he is until the stage manager's body drops down on the stage. But the movie actually shows him locking Christine in her room, creeping around, and murdering the stage manager, not only ruining his surprise entrances that made him so entertaining to watch on the stage, but also making him to be a creep from the beginning and thus less initially sympathetic.

Plus, you know, Butler sucked at singing. The Phantom needs that high-pitched Voldemort kind of voice that Michael Crawford excelled at.

I was also thrilled to see her rip that godawful Love Never Dies and all the reasons why it sucks.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Ohiopirate02]

12 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So I finally watched Lindsay Ellis' Phantom of the Opera videos and she did a great analysis of his character arc and why people can't help pitying him despite his horrendous acts, although she points out that no movie version or even the musical ever comes close to addressing the complexity of his character as well as the original novel did. At worst, he's a serial killer, but at best (using the term "best" loosely) he's a self-centered petulant child that stopped emotionally aging due to the abuse he took for his disfigurement, angrily lashing out at everyone he thinks wronged him. Which makes his releasing Christine not only his one good deed, but also his first act of emotional maturity, thinking of someone else instead of himself. Not that it makes up for everything.

She also brilliantly takes down the horrible Gerard Butler movie version. One example is how it alters some of the suspense of the stage show, which kind of ruins him as a villain. In the stage show, you don't really realize how dangerous he is until the stage manager's body drops down on the stage. But the movie actually shows him locking Christine in her room, creeping around, and murdering the stage manager, not only ruining his surprise entrances that made him so entertaining to watch on the stage, but also making him to be a creep from the beginning and thus less initially sympathetic.

Plus, you know, Butler sucked at singing. The Phantom needs that high-pitched Voldemort kind of voice that Michael Crawford excelled at.

I was also thrilled to see her rip that godawful Love Never Dies and all the reasons why it sucks.

I also hate the way the movie changed Erik's backstory.  Having Madame Giry hide him in the basement of the opera house for decades instead of roaming the world learning stuff changes the character in a fundamental way.  At least I think we are supposed to believe he has lived in the bowels of the opera house for decades.  It's been awhile since I have seen that awful movie.  The way I remember the movie, he goes from circus freak to basement dweller without anything in between.  How he learned to read and write, compose, understand money and why he should blackmail the owners, the punjab lasso, his models, etc is never explained except he is a genius.  

 

I also do like how Lindsay takes down the baffling makeup the movie uses.  With the budget of the movie, he should have looked hideous and not like someone who had a bad reaction to a chemical peel.  

[Spartan Girl]

On April 22, 2020 at 10:56 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

like how Lindsay takes down the baffling makeup the movie uses.  With the budget of the movie, he should have looked hideous and not like someone who had a bad reaction to a chemical peel.  

Seriously! The Broadway show's makeup looked way better! What the hell happened? They couldn't have tried harder to make him look like Two Face?!

I'll admit that my jaw dropped when Lindsay said that Antonio Bandaras was origibally supposed to play him. Like even though the Phandom hated that idea, he would have been much better, he can at least sing.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Vertigo has, IMO, the most interesting handling of villains and/or villainous behavior in any movie. Since Vertigo is also the most spoiler-ific movie ever made (seriously, the less you know about it seeing it the first time, the better), the rest of this post will be spoiler marked... 

Spoiler

 

Vertigo's main villain is, unequivocally, Gavin Elster. He successfully plots to murder his wife Madeline and run off with her fortune; he has a  knowing partner in Judy (to pose as Madeline) and an unsuspecting patsy in Scottie. Elster succeeds with his dastardly plan, with a dead wife and two emotionally broken people left in his wake. It takes a special kind of evil to do all that, but because Elster is pretty flat as a character and doesn't have much screen time (he's long gone by the time we discover what he'd been up to), it's easy to overlook him as the villain he really is.

And yet, Vertigo also forces us to examine Scottie and Judy's behavior. First off, Scottie: he starts off decent enough, trailing "Madeline" at the behest of his old college chum Elster, but he quickly becomes obsessed with her and is pretty soon making out with her every chance he gets (I know, she's not really Elster's wife, but Scottie doesn't know that yet, so it's still wrong). When Madeline appears to fall to her death, Scottie spends the better part of a year recovering from an emotional breakdown, only to meet Judy. Seeing her startling resemblance to Madeline, Scottie becomes bent on changing Judy's clothes, accessories, hair color, basically everything about her so she'll resemble his late, beloved Madeline. Scottie's behavior is nothing short of monstrous; he willfully ignores Judy's tearful discomfort at this unwanted makeover. He is every bit the controlling, abusive boyfriend, and his refusal to accept reality over fantasy, the present over the past, helps lead to Judy's death.

And now, Judy, the most complex Hitchcock (not always) blonde ever. It's easy to sympathize with Judy's plight; after all, she loves Scottie, but he can't and won't love her for who she is. Elster made her look like Madeline, and now Scottie is doing the same thing. Yet one shouldn't forget that Judy was still complicit in Elster's scheme. She knew she was impersonating some dude's wife and deceiving Scottie (wouldn't that be enough to leave a bad taste in your mouth?), and surely she knew about the murder aspect of his plan. Did she know, and have a last minute crisis of conscience on the bell tower? If so, why didn't she turn Elster and herself over to the police? And if she lacked the moral wherewithal to do that much, why the hell didn't she just leave town?? Was she that desperate to see Scottie again? And is a relationship with him really so important that she has to subject herself to this nightmare? Judy is that rare villain/victim combo that actually works, and even if there is any of the dreaded villain apologia, it doesn't matter, because she falls to her death anyway. 

It's hard to ignore that Scottie and Judy are subjected to some hardcore karma, but Elster isn't (and, yes, I'm aware of that contrived alternate ending, but I'm going to choose to ignore it).

 

 

[xaxat]

On 3/10/2020 at 12:35 PM, Blergh said:

And not only did von Syndow EASILY outact virtually every other cast member 

How dare you!

Edited May 8, 2020 by xaxat

[Spartan Girl]

Hans Landa in Inglourious Basterds.  Christoph Waltz sure can play a good bad guy. I was both revolted and a smidge impressed that he weaseled a deal for himself to escape justice for all his COUNTLESS crimes by "helping" the Basterds wipe out the Nazis. I mean, yeah, he got the swastika carved into his forehead but still doesn't seem enough.

However, I hated douchey Frederic Zoller even more. Your average garbage Nice Guy who stalked Shoshanna and wouldn't take no for an answer... Although if it weren't for his relentless pursuit, Shoshanna never would have gotten the opportunity to burn the Nazis. Too bad she didn't get to live to watch them all did because of that one moment of undeserved pity for that asshole!!!

Edited May 9, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Spartan Girl]

So I just watched Brightburn and...there's a right way to do an evil Superman movie and there's a wrong way. This was the wrong way. The kid, despite being an alien, doesn't seem particularly bad, but the second he turns 12 his hidden spaceship activates and boom he's evil. It's like the writers couldn't make up their minds whether he was always evil or whether the spaceship flipped some kind of switch and was kind of controlling his sudden change.

It's pity because if they'd gone with the latter it would have had more potential, fighting his baser alien insticts in favor of the human morals he was taught, struggling until his human parents turn on him and he finally decides to embrace his evil powers and "destiny. Instead it just came off as rushed.

Chronicle did it much better. 

[VCRTracking]

Most unintentionally hilarious villain of a movie I've seen is "evil and powerful architecture critic for newspaper".

Edited May 29, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Spartan Girl]

The rich snobby boys in School Ties. They all seemed nice enough when David first meets them, enough that he's willing to overlook their occasional racist antiemetic jokes no matter how they made him feel. But the second that they find out David is Jewish, their true colors come out.

And like most bigots, they're fucking cowards. They'll sneak around putting up Nazi flags up in his room, but none of them are man enough to own up to it when David demands the guilty party to come out and face him on the school grounds. And to think, this was way before the days of social media.

[Spartan Girl]

I think we can all now officially agree that the greedy, willfully ignorant mayor of Jaws that cared more about the tourist economy than the welfare of beachgoers and kept ignoring and dismissing the experts was the true villain of the movie, not the shark.

The shark is still scary as hell, but a wild animal is gonna do what it's gonna do.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 7/6/2020 at 8:12 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I think we can all now officially agree that the greedy, willfully ignorant mayor of Jaws that cared more about the tourist economy than the welfare of beachgoers and kept ignoring and dismissing the experts was the true villain of the movie, not the shark.

The shark is still scary as hell, but a wild animal is gonna do what it's gonna do.

Nope. Nope. For me, JAWS was the uberly, evuhl, evuhl Villain! He happily kilt Quint!

And while the mayor was a self-interested asshole, he came to his senses after the attack that killed Alex and Pipit, the dog! Because his son was also on the beach at the time. And he signed the agreement for Quint to catch the bastard.

The bigger asshole/villain in JAWS II was Stefano DiMera Peterson.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So yes I did. I sat my butt down and rewatched this last night and yep, JAWS is the VILLAIN! It was taunting Quint, Hooper, and Brody! It HAPPILY CHOMP CHOMPED! Quint!

I wonder is Soaps got the SORAS from the sequel. Because the first came out in 1975, the sequel (bleh) three years later, but Brody had a line about how being Chief for four years meant nothing. YET Michael  was 17 in the sequel and maybe 10 or 11 in the original!

So yeah, SORAS—Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome going on here!😆😆

And how’d I miss that Peter Benchley co-wrote the screenplay? No wonder it was AWESOME! Now I have to finish the book. I remember starting to read it while waiting for the book store to open and I had to start working. Only got as far as that Islander reporting Cassie as missing.

[Spartan Girl]

@GHScorpiosRulethe book is very different from the movie. Won't spoil it for you, but be prepared.

Peter Benchley apparently regretted his part in starting the Jaws phenomenon because of the increase in shark hunting and advocates for saving them now. Oh the irony...

As for Spielberg, he still refuses to go into the water to this day because he's convinced the sharks are waiting to get revenge.

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

@GHScorpiosRulethe book is very different from the movie. Won't spoil it for you, but be prepared.

Peter Benchley apparently regretted his part in starting the Jaws phenomenon because of the increase in shark hunting and advocates for saving them now. Oh the irony...

As for Spielberg, he still refuses to go into the water to this day because he's convinced the sharks are waiting to get revenge.

Oh, I know that the book is different and what happens with certain characters-it was revealed in the JAWS thread. And I’m prepared for it.

Funny how Benchley didn’t mention that in the 25th Anniversary dvd -making of the movie interview. But I guess maybe they told him it to? But, I don’t care.

I do remember a tv special hosted by the late great Vincent Price about this movie. And that the movie didn’t so much as make us fear sharks as it did making us fear the WATER/OCEAN. I’ll have to see if I can find that.

And as much as the sequel didn’t have Dreyfuss or Spielberg, and the shark itself was too in your face, it did have Brody and shallow as it is, that one scene of Roy Schieder, with his khaki sheriff shirt unbuttoned while he was making those cianide bullets? Revealing that SEXY ASS chest?? I was in SWOON city! Roy, someone who is so NOT classically or otherwise handsome, sure as hell brought the sexy.🥰🥰🥰🥰

What?

Edited July 11, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[VCRTracking]

Meredith from the 1998 remake of The Parent Trap tells her side of the story:

 

 

[Spartan Girl]

The Grand High Witch and her coven in The Witches. Holy crap I forgot how scary they were. A bunch of monstrous child killers...and they don't just kill them, they magically trap them in paintings or turn them into mice so that their own parents will unwittingly exterminate them 

Angelica Huston was pitch perfect casting. I don't want to prematurely judge Anne Hathaway's take when the remake hasn't even come out yet, but at the same time, you can't top Angelica fucking Huston.

[Blergh]

15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The Grand High Witch and her coven in The Witches. Holy crap I forgot how scary they were. A bunch of monstrous child killers...and they don't just kill them, they magically trap them in paintings or turn them into mice so that their own parents will unwittingly exterminate them 

Angelica Huston was pitch perfect casting. I don't want to prematurely judge Anne Hathaway's take when the remake hasn't even come out yet, but at the same time, you can't top Angelica fucking Huston.

All the above I agree with, but I LOVED the irony that only the snoopy boy's Norwegian grandmother believed him and

Spoiler

 

that the grandmother orchestrated the perfect comeuppance on that coven with her being able to correctly tell Miss Huston's character 'No, not next time! This time it's YOUR turn!' right before the Grand High Witch got dispatched (and it wasn't just her grandson's fate she was avenging but also her childhood friend's and whatever had happened to one of her fingers).  

Yes, at the end, the child was turned back into a boy by the sole surviving witch (unlike the book) but the above exchange seemed more cathartic!

 

 

[Mabinogia]

19 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Angelica Huston was pitch perfect casting. I don't want to prematurely judge Anne Hathaway's take when the remake hasn't even come out yet, but at the same time, you can't top Angelica forking Huston.

Why on Earth are they remaking it? Angelica Huston MADE that movie. She was scary as hell. 

[Spartan Girl]

I want to talk about Candyman in light of the reboot coming up. A good horror villain, definitely. But I find it interesting that a great many of his victims are the poor Black residents of Cabrini Green, even innocent kids. What happened to him in his origin story -- mutilated and lynched for having an affair with a white woman -- was terrible, but why take his supernatural wrath on people like him? No amount of victim apologia justifies that. 

That being said, I do love the ending of Virginia Madsen taking Candyman's place and getting revenge on her garbage cheating husband and his coed bimbo. (Yeah, yeah, being a cheating jerk doesn't exactly deserve getting eviscerated but I don't have to feel that sorry for him either.)

Edited August 7, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Luckylyn]

Camille in Cookie’s Fortune is such a terrible person but she’s fascinating to watch.  You can tell Glenn Close is having a great time playing her.  There’s something so fake about her and the way she tries to seem polite but is just a monster of a person.  The plot of the movie involves Camille finding out her relative Cookie has committed suicide.  Camille decides that suicide is too much shame for the family so she destroys Cookie’s sucide note and then stages the scene to look like a murder.  When someone is arrested for this murder that didn’t happen Camille does nothing to help him even though she knows for certain it was suicide.  She just happily moves into her wealthy relative’s home and starts using her stuff while there’s still blood from the death fresh in the house.  She treats her sister like a doormat and is perfectly willing to let a man she knows is innocent go to jail for a crime he didn’t commit while she profits from the death. The ending where 

Spoiler

She ends up going to jail for the murder and finds out the man she nearly destroyed was inheriting all of Coookie’s fortune is delicious to watch.  I love that her sister who’s she’s treated like crap all their lives gets to be part of Camille’s doom by acting as a witness to insist it was a murder not a suicide.  

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Luckylyn

[GreekGeek]

Glenn Close is fantastic as outwardly pleasant but secretly evil characters. I remember her Marquise in Dangerous Liaisons, posing as Cecile’s friend and confidante while leading her to ruin. Iago himself could not have done it better. Valmont is just as bad, seducing a respectable woman like Tourvel for his own and the Marquise’s amusement. I don’t think it redeems him that he genuinely fell in love with her.

Speaking of Glenn Close, how could we omit her Alex Forrest in Fatal Attraction? One of the most controversial psycho killers ever.

Dr. Sloper and Morris Townsend in The Heiress were discussed up thread, but for me the most chilling moment in the film/play is Catherine’s realization that her Aunt Lavinia—whom she had always considered an ally—essentially agreed with her father that she was too plain and dull for a man to be interested in anything but her money.

When it comes to sympathetic “villains,” I’ve always felt bad for Oklahoma’s Jud Fry. He wants what the nominal hero Curley wants—namely Laurey—but he doesn’t have Curley’s knack for flirty banter. So he turns violent. It doesn’t excuse him, but it makes him understandable. It didn’t help that there’s a whole song where Curley urges him to kill himself, because that’s the only way he’ll ever get any love. And his solo “Lonely Room” was cut from the film because it made him too sympathetic.

 

 

 

[kiddo82]

58 minutes ago, GreekGeek said:

Glenn Close is fantastic as outwardly pleasant but secretly evil characters. I remember her Marquise in Dangerous Liaisons, posing as Cecile’s friend and confidante while leading her to ruin. Iago himself could not have done it better. Valmont is just as bad, seducing a respectable woman like Tourvel for his own and the Marquise’s amusement. I don’t think it redeems him that he genuinely fell in love with her.

Speaking of Glenn Close, how could we omit her Alex Forrest in Fatal Attraction? One of the most controversial psycho killers ever.

Not a movie but I always go back to Close in Damages.  Such a delicious but nuanced portrayal of a really unscrupulous character. 

[Spartan Girl]

Are there movies when you find yourself sympathizing with the villain because the "hero" is an irredeemable asshole?

For me, one of those movies was Law Abiding Citizen -- bear with me. I don't condone Clyde resorting to serial killing but I did feel for him feeling let down by the legal system all because Jamie Foxx's DA character made a deal with his family's murderer because he didn't want to tarnish his precious winning streak. And what really bothers me is how little remorse he feels over it even after everything: he blames the cops for mucking up the evidence, he bleats his self-righteous "imperfect system" spiel to justify his actions, and even at his lowest moment, he has the nerve to use the excuse that had he not made the deal they would have lost the trial. Clyde calls him out on that last one, telling him flat out that he would have at least respected him for trying to bring the killer to justice instead of giving him that sweetheart deal.

You know what one of the differences between a hero and a villain? The hero, no matter how flawed, will take responsibility for their own actions. Jamie's character didn't. So yeah, Clyde was a sociopathic vigilante murderer, but I couldn't bring myself to root for Jamie Foxx either.

[Spartan Girl]

Let's add Venom to the list of good villains that were ruined because Hollywood decided to turn them into anti heroes instead of letting them be the fucking villains.

Seriously, Spider-Man: The Animated Series gave Eddie Brock a fantastic storyline AND a believable well written villain redemption arc. And the live action Marvel movies didn't even TRY to do him justice! In fact, I'll go as far to say that NONE of the villains in the Tobey Maguire movies were as great as they were in the comics/cartoons -- Except for Willem Defoe's Green Goblin, and only because he played the hell out of that role. Sorry, Alfred Molina, but Doc Ock did NOT have a split personality with his tentacles! 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Spartan Girl]

The Horned King in The Black Cauldron is one of the scariest and most underrated Disney villains.

[meep.meep]

Laurence Olivier as the Nazi dentist in The Marathon Man.  "Is it safe?"  The whole theater was cringing.

[Blergh]

13 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Laurence Olivier as the Nazi dentist in The Marathon Man.  "Is it safe?"  The whole theater was cringing.

Oh, yeah! In a movie where there seemed to be nonstop violence and torture, that scene of Olivier drilling out Huffman's character's tooth was the WORST!  I wound up being totally wiped out and bummed out by that movie and put it on my 'NEVER again' list!

[AimingforYoko]

On 11/3/2020 at 7:00 PM, meep.meep said:

Laurence Olivier as the Nazi dentist in The Marathon Man. 

Played a Nazi in Marathon Man and an Simon Wiesenthal stand-in in The Boys From Brazil just two years later.

[Blergh]

On 11/5/2020 at 1:55 PM, AimingforYoko said:

Played a Nazi in Marathon Man and an Simon Wiesenthal stand-in in The Boys From Brazil just two years later.

Not to mention that the legendary Olivier had the perfect put-down to Dustin Hoffman who had just detailed  about how he's stayed up for three straight days before starting to film the infamous dental torture scene so his character would be believably distraught and frantic during that scene:

 

"My dear boy, why don't you just try acting?"

Edited November 7, 2020 by Blergh

[Wiendish Fitch]

46 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Not to mention that the legendary Olivier had the perfect put-down to Dustin Huffman who had just detailed  about how he's stayed up for three straight days before starting to film the infamous dental torture scene so his character would be believably distraught and frantic during that scene:

 

"My dear boy, why don't you just try acting?"

That anecdote will never get old, and never not be awesome. Lord Larry never suffered pretense! 

[Browncoat]

Nitpick, but it's Dustin Hoffman, not Huffman.

[Spartan Girl]

The satanic cult in Rosemary’s Baby was terrifying but for me the true villain was Guy. A selfish asshole so desperate for a career that he allowed his wife to be drugged, raped, and forced to give birth to the Antichrist. And what I find really disturbing was how nonchalantly he covered it all up by claiming he had raped her while she was passed out, like it was acceptable just because they were married and he “didn’t want to miss Baby Night.”

That was truly one of the more chilling moments of the film, showing how disturbed Rosemary was by the “confession” and how Not Okay she clearly was with it, but in the end meekly shrugs it off because she (and many other women back then and even now) have in drilled into their minds to accept what their husbands want. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

39 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The satanic cult in Rosemary’s Baby was terrifying but for me the true villain was Guy. A selfish asshole so desperate for a career that he allowed his wife to be drugged, raped, and forced to give birth to the Antichrist. And what I find really disturbing was how nonchalantly he covered it all up by claiming he had raped her while she was passed out, like it was acceptable just because they were married and he “didn’t want to miss Baby Night.”

That was truly one of the more chilling moments of the film, showing how disturbed Rosemary was by the “confession” and how Not Okay she clearly was with it, but in the end meekly shrugs it off because she (and many other women back then and even now) have in drilled into their minds to accept what their husbands want. 

I think what makes Rosemary's Baby all the more chilling is knowing who directed it...

[Blergh]

On 11/6/2020 at 7:47 PM, Browncoat said:

Nitpick, but it's Dustin Hoffman, not Huffman.

Ironiclly, Mr. Hoffman is now a year older than the Baron Olivier's ultimate age, yet STILL has not reached the same legendary heights of acting that the latter did (granted, both would wind up doing quite a few 'bill paying/inheritance ensuring' groaners in their twilight years) but still, few would argue that Mr. Hoffman's has gained Sir Larry's wisdom  even when playing villains via living longer than him! 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Blergh

[Blergh]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

The satanic cult in Rosemary’s Baby was terrifying but for me the true villain was Guy. A selfish asshole so desperate for a career that he allowed his wife to be drugged, raped, and forced to give birth to the Antichrist. And what I find really disturbing was how nonchalantly he covered it all up by claiming he had raped her while she was passed out, like it was acceptable just because they were married and he “didn’t want to miss Baby Night.”

That was truly one of the more chilling moments of the film, showing how disturbed Rosemary was by the “confession” and how Not Okay she clearly was with it, but in the end meekly shrugs it off because she (and many other women back then and even now) have in drilled into their minds to accept what their husbands want. 

Also, let's not forget Ruth Gordon's character Mrs. Castavet who came across as  Rosemary's  neighborly grandma but, who wound up deliberately destroying Rosemary's life and also I think Dr. Hill (Charles Grodin) who Rosemary clearly was  seeking as the last chance for help for herself and her unborn child  but instead deliberately threw her back to the wolves  rather than attempt to help her both deserve  spots in that toasty place forever! 

[Spartan Girl]

Look, I had a lot of problems with Promising Young Woman but it does a brilliant job of spelling out the real villains: douchey, entitled men, seemingly “nice” or otherwise, that do what they want with zero consequences and the society that lets them get away with it.

[kiddo82]

I was thinking about this while posting in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier thread.  I think one of the main problems I have with the "Well, he/she isn't wrong" type of villains is that they seldom see their own hypocrisy.  As a viewer, I find this trope more annoying than the "chaos villains" or the ones who at least own it.  They justify their evil ways, which start out fighting the establishment but typically escalate to harming innocents, because they see their cause as noble.  And even though that may be true, at some point down the line they usually fall more in love with themselves than the cause.  At some point it becomes about amassing power or having a savior complex.  Or they just flat out become corrupt.  Either way there's endless prattle about how the hero represents the real bad guys and the villain is actually the one fighting for something all while I roll my eyes.  And to be clear, I don't have a problem with our heroes being called out when it's warranted.  No one, both in works of fiction or in our discussions, should be beyond reproach.  But I also think it would be refreshing to see these villains actually being honest about it.  "Yeah, I do bad shit because at the end of the day it's worth cracking a few eggs." or even "I kind of like it."  I'd at least respect that.

Edited April 11, 2021 by kiddo82

[Spartan Girl]

I don’t know if Anthony Hopkins’ Dr. Hannibal Lecter had been mentioned a lot in his thread, but he should be. After watching The Father, I of course had to rewatch Silence of the Lambs just to remind myself how fearsome he could be. It’s a mark of how good Hopkins’ performance was when his scariest moments aren’t when he’s eating people, but when he puts on the charming front to mind-fuck them. My skin still crawls at the first shot of him in the prison cell, the way he just stands there with that smile like he was expecting Clarice to show up.

But Hopkins can do the pitiful sympathetic villain too. Anyone remember him as the split-personality ventriloquist in Magic?

[GreekGeek]

On 11/7/2020 at 10:59 AM, Spartan Girl said:

The satanic cult in Rosemary’s Baby was terrifying but for me the true villain was Guy. A selfish asshole so desperate for a career that he allowed his wife to be drugged, raped, and forced to give birth to the Antichrist. And what I find really disturbing was how nonchalantly he covered it all up by claiming he had raped her while she was passed out, like it was acceptable just because they were married and he “didn’t want to miss Baby Night.”

That was truly one of the more chilling moments of the film, showing how disturbed Rosemary was by the “confession” and how Not Okay she clearly was with it, but in the end meekly shrugs it off because she (and many other women back then and even now) have in drilled into their minds to accept what their husbands want. 

 

On 11/7/2020 at 12:52 PM, Blergh said:

Also, let's not forget Ruth Gordon's character Mrs. Castavet who came across as  Rosemary's  neighborly grandma but, who wound up deliberately destroying Rosemary's life and also I think Dr. Hill (Charles Grodin) who Rosemary clearly was  seeking as the last chance for help for herself and her unborn child  but instead deliberately threw her back to the wolves  rather than attempt to help her both deserve  spots in that toasty place forever! 

There’s a lot of evil to go around in Rosemary’s Baby. Keep in mind that Dr. Hill was ready to believe Rosemary until she said that the highly respected Dr. Sapirstein was part of the cult. Dr. S. is pretty evil himself. He tells Rosemary not to listen to her friends or read books about pregnancy, lets her suffer terrible pain for months, and has Minnie Castevet feed her disgusting potions. All the time he plays the role of the kindly wise old Jewish doctor to the hilt.

[Spartan Girl]

Mrs. Baylock in The Omen was another great horror villain. Ironically, she’s more overtly creepy and menacing than Damien actually was!

I guess Mia Farrow’s (seemingly) gentler version of the character in the remake might have worked if the filmmakers hadn’t decided to make Damien more sinister-looking. Like I said before, of defeated the purpose of the suspenseful ambiguity. The only thing it accomplished is maybe justify why Kate was suddenly afraid of her own son, whereas in the original, it kind of comes out of nowhere. Remember Damien doesn’t really DO anything evil (except freak out in a church). Having him glower at the zoo animals and whisper creepy things and showing Kate being knocked off the railing as more deliberate makes it way too obvious and kind of defeats the point of Mrs. Baylock being around if she’s not the scary one. Although the way she killed Kate in the remake was way scarier.

On a shallow note, the kid in the remake had such a cute little fact that it’s a shame the filmmakers told him to scowl all the time. That smile at the end just seemed forced and therefore less effective.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Spartan Girl]

It was really good to see Willem Dafoe as Norman Osbourne/Green Goblin in Spider-Man: No Way Home. Ditto Alfred Molina as Doc Ock. I had mixed feelings about the whole 

Spoiler

“Let’s heal and redeem all the villains so they can create another multiverse when they don’t die” resolution, especially after Goblin killed Aunt May

but it didn’t annoy me too much.

However, it did bring to mind why Spider-Man 3 was such an abysmal failure in the villain department, not only because there were too fucking many, but also because it couldn’t stick the landing with Harry’s storyline. I could never buy that Harry was that good of a friend to Peter before turning evil, so his last minute redemption came off as limp. And it pissed me off to no end that he never actually apologized to Peter for anything, while Peter apologized to Harry. Uh, for what? Peter might have been a dick under the influence of the symbiote, but telling off Harry and throwing his own bomb back at him after he tried to kill him? That was pretty justified as far as I could see.

[Spartan Girl]

Wanda/Scarlet Witch’s heel turn in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness made my teeth crack. It was sloppy, rushed, and unearned.

If we go by the explanation that she was corrupted by the Darkhold, it’s still infuriating. Because Strange knew all about Westview, and yet somehow it never occurred to him to track her down, if only to make sure she didn’t have another magical meltdown. Had he bothered to do that, he could have stopped her before she got too deep into the Darkhold. At the very least, it would have good for her to have a friend around giving her some emotional support and help understand and control her powers. But no. He doesn’t even think about her until America shows up being chased by the multiverse monsters.

Unfortunately, this is yet another example of the senior Avengers having very short memories where their friends on concerned. Vision’s corpse confiscated by the government? Nothing we can do, it’s not like he needs a funeral. And Wanda will understand, it’s not the first time she’s lost someone. Sharon went on the lam after she helped us in Civil War? It was her choice, she’ll be fine, she knew what she was doing. Peter Parker being framed by angry Stark employees? Not our problem.

🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Edited May 17, 2022 by Spartan Girl