S02.E09: Life's a Beach

[wetmoregal]

Thanks all for educating me a little bit on what the transgender world has to deal with physically.  I would think hormones would be expensive and not something the average person could afford, especially in the Pose world where these ladies are struggling to make ends meet.  If Angel is still "fully intact", then I would think tucking would be extremely difficult and painful, especially when you're trying to fit in a swimsuit.  I'm sorry for looking, but I didn't see any lumps, bumps etc.  I agree, Blanca is the most feminine looking of the ladies, followed by Lulu, Angel, then Electra.  If I passed any of them on the street, I wouldn't think twice.  The only clue to me would be Electra's height.  On a closer look, her facial features are a more masculine looking, especially her nose and the width of her face.  But, they are all stunningly beautiful ladies.  I also wonder about the breast sizes.  Lulu is full bodied, Electra is somewhat (she rocked that low cut bathing suit), Angel small, and Blanca is flat chested.  Hormones and or breast implants? I seem to remember Candy going to the shady lady for implants.  Lulu would have visited her too, right?

[kieyra]

Just now, wetmoregal said:

Thanks all for educating me a little bit on what the transgender world has to deal with physically.  I would think hormones would be expensive and not something the average person could afford, especially in the Pose world where these ladies are struggling to make ends meet.  If Angel is still "fully intact", then I would think tucking would be extremely difficult and painful, especially when you're trying to fit in a swimsuit. 

If you've never watched RuPaul's Drag Race, it might be worth checking out. A lot of their runway and other outfits are very skimpy. Some of the drag queens* there have better luck than others with their tucking. 

(*I am not suggesting that drag queens = trans, although there has been some overlap (where RPDR contestants do transition). Just saying tucking is involved in both cases.)

[qtpye]

22 minutes ago, eejm said:

 I have the same impression of Blanca - she and Lulu are the most physically feminine-looking to me of all the characters.  I understand Blanca’s (and last year, Candy’s) insecurities about not being curvy, but a lot of cis women aren’t curvy either.  That doesn’t have much impact to me on whether or not they can pass.

Hell, most models are not curvy. During this time period many cisgender women would love to have Blanca’s figure because in rich white society, thin was in. This was way before the era of even JLO. I understand the African American and Latino men that Blanca is probably attracted to probably like them a little thicker, but not having killer curves would not automatically make you manly.

[PrincessTee]

I seem to be in the minority that thinks although Blanca is attractive, i can see where she doesn't pass as easily as say Lulu or Angel.  I  had to google to find out if Lulu and Candy were  in fact trans because i feel they pass so well.  With regards to Electra, the only thing that i believe gives her away is her height because she is giving me Grace Jones vibes.   All in all i think the cast is excellent.  I often wonder if all of the women on the show are post opp although it is none of my business. I just wonder.

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

Hell, most models are not curvy. During this time period many cisgender women would love to have Blanca’s figure because in rich white society, thin was in. This was way before the era of even JLO. I understand the African American and Latino men that Blanca is probably attracted to probably like them a little thicker, but not having killer curves would not automatically make you manly.

Yeah, in show time the modeling world is moving toward the "heroin chic" fashion era, where extreme thinness was in. Kate Moss rose to prominence in the mid-90s and she was very famously not curvy at all. Blanca's build reminds me of someone I knew in high school who was very athletic: petite on top, larger and muscular on the bottom. 

3 minutes ago, PrincessTee said:

I seem to be in the minority that thinks although Blanca is attractive, i can see where she doesn't pass as easily as say Lulu or Angel.

I can see this too but it's her face, not her body in my opinion. She has kind of a strong jaw.

1 hour ago, kieyra said:

If you've never watched RuPaul's Drag Race, it might be worth checking out. A lot of their runway and other outfits are very skimpy. Some of the drag queens* there have better luck than others with their tucking. 

I can remember occasions where the judges commented on how small a costume is and ask if the contestants' tucking is painful and the answer is always yes.

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

So I don’t know about the actresses, Laverne Cox is the only mainstream trans woman actress who’s talked in detail about her surgeries (that I’m aware of). 

On Dominique Jackson's (Elektra) Wikipedia page, it mentions she had gender affirmation surgery in 2016 so she must have discussed it somewhere.

On the show, Elektra had to save for years while being the mistress to a rich white man in order to get her surgery. I would be surprised if any of the other women (the characters) have the means at this time.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Irlandesa

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

On Dominique Jackson's (Elektra) Wikipedia page, it mentions she had gender affirmation surgery in 2016 so she must have discussed it somewhere.

On the show, Elektra had to save for years while being the mistress to a rich white man in order to get her surgery. I would be surprised if any of the other women (the characters) have the means at this time.

Angel was upfront about being at the piers to save up for the surgery since “It’s expensive if you want it done right”

[Gummo]

This was the first episode in 2 seasons where something so unrealistic happened that it took me out of the show completely (condom-ing Frederica's house without getting arrested or any other immediate consequences almost did it but not quite).

It's 1990. There's NO WAY (1) our ladies would have been allowed in to that tony whiter-than-white country club-style restaurant; (2) if they did get seated, they most likely would have been deliberately ignored and not served; (3) none of the patrons would have confronted our ladies; they would have gone to the manager and insisted the police be called to remove our gals for whatever spurious reason they could concoct -- "disturbing the peace" most likely, or else they, the whitey white patrons, would never go there again. And management, grateful for an excuse, would call the police and our ladies would have spent the night in jail for being black and trans on Long Island in 1990.

So while it was fun watching Elektra do her Elektra thing all over some snotty Long Island hausfrau, it could never have happened.

[12catcrazy]

15 minutes ago, Gummo said:

So while it was fun watching Elektra do her Elektra thing all over some snotty Long Island hausfrau, it could never have happened.

In all due respect, as I mentioned up thread, I live on Long Island and moved back here (raised as a child here) in late 1987.   I'm assuming the tony restaurant the ladies dined at was a public restaurant, and even most Country Club restaurants are open to the public.   Believe me, they would have been seated (probably in an out of the way table, as the hostess first tried to do) as the restaurant would have opened itself up to being sued if they weren't.  

Now some of the patrons might not have been happy about this, but unless the folks were doing something bad enough to be asked to leave the restaurant, they would be able to eat there.  Long Island may still be backwards but believe me, even in 1990, if people of color were not allowed into a public restaurant, it would have made the newspapers.  

[kieyra]

51 minutes ago, Gummo said:

This was the first episode in 2 seasons where something so unrealistic happened that it took me out of the show completely

This happens for me every episode, but I still enjoy it for the fun/frothy show it is. 

[Blakeston]

The one thing that I think could have prevented the ladies from dining at the restaurant was that they were a bit boisterous (and having a somewhat sexual discussion), and I could easily see a manager using that as an excuse for why they had to leave.

(While the woman who "works in the city" who approached them was obviously awful - and was clearly far more concerned with their genitalia and the color of their skin than their noise level - I didn't buy Elektra's retort that they weren't being louder than anyone else.)

As for how feminine all of the actresses look, I understand the need to put pretty people on TV screens. (Our shallow-ass public demands it.) But the makers of this show get so much credit for being sensitive to the trans community, and their commitment to diversity...so I think it kind of sucks that they couldn't put one transwoman in the cast who looks more like Marsha P. Johnson than Naomi Campbell.

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

On Dominique Jackson's (Elektra) Wikipedia page, it mentions she had gender affirmation surgery in 2016 so she must have discussed it somewhere.

On the show, Elektra had to save for years while being the mistress to a rich white man in order to get her surgery. I would be surprised if any of the other women (the characters) have the means at this time.

I agree with you, gender confirmation surgery is hella expensive. 

Thanks for the info on Dominique, I follow her on insta but I haven’t read her wiki page. 

[Ohwell]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The one thing that I think could have prevented the ladies from dining at the restaurant was that they were a bit boisterous (and having a somewhat sexual discussion), and I could easily see a manager using that as an excuse for why they had to leave.

(While the woman who "works in the city" who approached them was obviously awful - and was clearly far more concerned with their genitalia and the color of their skin than their noise level - I didn't buy Elektra's retort that they weren't being louder than anyone else.)

Yes, I did think they were too loud, even though they were just having fun.  I didn't hear any other customers being loud like that.  However, Miss Thang should have just notified the manager who would have (hopefully) kindly told them tone it down.  

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 8/14/2019 at 6:36 PM, SlutAssBitchAssHor said:

The fact that you put the number in the title means you're my kind of special. Now you're gonna make me go and watch it! Not that it takes much, I love that movie and I'm about due for a re watch

Are we kindred spirits? I can’t gush about that movie enough. (Before the “me, too” horrors surfaced,) I had my 7-year-old son dress as the Kevin Spacey character for Halloween. Surgical tape wrapped around his fingertips, blood-splattered short-sleeved shirt, carrying a pumpkin [Gwyneth’s severed head] in a cardboard box labeled Please Handle with Care/Fragile, a checklist taped to the side, with all the sins (except Lust). I was thrilled when one guy recognized what my son was.

Such a disturbing but riveting film.

[hoodooznoodooz]

13 hours ago, eejm said:

I have the same impression of Blanca - she and Lulu are the most physically feminine-looking to me of all the characters.  I understand Blanca’s (and last year, Candy’s) insecurities about not being curvy, but a lot of cis women aren’t curvy either.  That doesn’t have much impact to me on whether or not they can pass.

Funny story: I cut my hair super short one year. I am pretty small up top. I dress androgynously. No jewelry or makeup. People used to say to my son, “That’s your mom? I thought that was your dad.” One woman even scolded me, “You realize this is the ladies’ room.”

[aradia22]

YES to Patti Lupone's whole yellow ENSEMBLE. That was a look. Elektra's pink swimsuit with the big hat and the flower? Perfection. Her long hot pink dress and the jumpsuit at the end were also fabulous. She has a body made for clothes.

LOVED the music this episode. This is the 90's I remember.

I have never related to Elektra more than in this episode. My brain melts in the heat. I cannot be bothered with anyone's petty problems.

I thought Elektra might have taken advantage of the trip to get rid of the body in her closet. I still don't know why they're committed to never getting rid of it... especially since it's apparently starting to smell.

"Why'd I pick the one street that hasn't gentrified yet?"

At first I thought they only had Blanca almost drown to show off the lifeguard's body. Then they gave him a name. THEN they let Blanca have an actual date. Ahh! I could not stop happy clapping. I love this for her. 

Elektra reading that blond Becky was fabulous. 

It was a silly joke but I loved that all the girls had somehow stashed away these huge weapons. 

Is this our last visit from Ghost Candy? Enough at this point. Though if it was there to correct an oversight about Elektra not having a scene with her at the funeral, I'm okay with it. But no more. She better not be popping up all the time in season 3. It's getting ridiculous.

Anyway, I loved the whole girls' trip. This is what the show should have been doing (besides painting and redecorating Blanca's apartment) with their growing success. We needed this fun to off set the heaviness. I'm starting to count on Our Lady J for these lighter episodes. And with the way she's made use of it, I wouldn't be surprised if we have her to thank for the Elektra dominatrix development.

[aradia22]

Quote

 I was surprised that Adrian called. We'll see how that relationship plays out.

The writers can very easily dump him next season the way they did with Keenan. But I thought he'd call as soon as he mentioned Fordham. They have a Bronx campus and I'm pretty sure Frederica mentioned that's where Blanca lives. 

Quote

I don’t buy that Long Island witch clocking the girls. They all pass. Angel is a the Bebe girl, for crying out loud! 

I do. It's less their bodies and faces than the way they dress. They stood out even more with that bland Hamptons/Connecticut/Cape Cod sort of crowd but even with an average group, the short skirts and bright colors would have been a little suspicious. They're a little too glamorous. A little too loud and not in a way that's fashionable. Also, Elektra has to be over six feet tall. And she specifically pointed out their "grating voices."

Quote

C'mon show. Y'all know damn well that all 4 actresses easily pass, especially if you look at old photos of actual trans women of the the time period and place the show represents. It irks (almost feels like trolling) when they have the characters worry about that.

I mean, yes, but it's something I've come to accept. I don't think it's necessary for the show to make up or costume the actresses in a way that makes them appear more "masculine." The cons outweigh the benefits. It would be demeaning. And I understand that they want to talk about these issues. I think they've told us enough times that in the context of the show, Blanca doesn't pass as well as the others so I'm okay with just accepting that. I think @Scarlett45 put it best.

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Right.  At most, I could see them possibly wondering about Elektra given her height but that's all I could believe---that they'd potentially wonder, whisper and gossip at their table.  There's no way they'd be certain enough to confront them about that.  She'd continue coded racism about "genteel manners."

I think she was supposed to be an avatar for the many white people who are always calling the police on black people minding their own business/also an echo of that high school mean girl. I also think we were supposed to recognize that there was a big time jump and they'd been there for a while so maybe she'd been stewing over her feelings about these people coming in to invade her space for hours and she'd had enough.

Quote

Remember, she works in the city, so she "knows such things". Though, I was very naive back then (only a little naive now), and my knowledge of trans people would have been characters (usually prostitutes) in Law and Order.

I mean, I was a child. But until fairly recently, I think I would have been more familiar with drag queens than transwomen or what L&O might call "crossdressers." I do have a memory of going around a revolving door and seeing the most gorgeous, statuesque woman. I was a child so everyone was tall to me. My dad told me a minute later that the person I'd seen was a man but at time it wouldn't have crossed my mind to question it.

Quote

But, duct tape and tucking were mentioned above, so here goes...  How is that possible?  Where are things tucked at/in? 

WARNING: NSFW

[kieyra]

6 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I thought Elektra might have taken advantage of the trip to get rid of the body in her closet. I still don't know why they're committed to never getting rid of it... especially since it's apparently starting to smell.

If they’re following through with the Dorian Corey real-life storyline from Paris is Burning, the body is definitely staying there.

[Gummo]

3 hours ago, kieyra said:

If they’re following through with the Dorian Corey real-life storyline from Paris is Burning, the body is definitely staying there.

Forgetting the reality this storyline is based on for a moment, and just thinking about it in terms of the Pose universe:

I'd have to go back and review the original episode but I remember Electra making some comments to the effect that this was her responsibility and her cross to bear, etc. So that even if an opportunity to safely get rid of the body presented itself, I'm not sure she'd take it -- she's punishing herself or doing penance for what she see as her life's sins (and I don't mean that narrowly, as in she feels guilty for her sexuality -- not at all. I'm thinking more of people she thinks she may have wronged or people she let down when they needed her, or even other situations we'll never know about). Which lets us know that so much of Electra's bravado, haughtiness and even her nastiness are an act, or at least projection; and it reveals her as a much deeper and sadder character than the one-dimensional Electra we were first introduced to.

IOW, the writing on this show continues to grow and the characters continue to deepen. And it looks like we're finally going to see more sides of Blanca than the sexless saintly mother figure!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

12 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I thought Elektra might have taken advantage of the trip to get rid of the body in her closet. I still don't know why they're committed to never getting rid of it... especially since it's apparently starting to smell.

Lulu and Angel don't know about the body and Elektra doesn't want to involve them.  Moving the body would involve smells and possibly leakage in the rented car, and digging a big hole In that guy's backyard. Too many opportunities for discovery.

The only way I could ever see her disposing of him "safely" would be if she could carve off little bits at a time (including bone) and deposit them in random garbage cans. Even trying to flush the bits would be too risky in case the plumbing backed up and a plumber was needed.

Anyway, she's never going to voluntarily open that trunk again.

Edited August 16, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[aradia22]

I understand that they're trying to parallel something that happened in real life. And I get the feelings attached to it. But it would make more sense if this was a burden but a minor one. However, the way they played it this episode, with all the car fresheners and everyone noticing the smell... from a writing standpoint that says 'this big secret is barely under wraps. Someone is about to find out.'

It's the difference between writing a story where you bury someone in the backyard and everyone admires the garden and writing a story where that dead body grows into a plant no one's seen before that seems to be crying when the wind blows. I'm unclear on if Elektra lives in a house or an apartment (that place looks huge) but if she has neighbors, they're implying one of them would notice the smell. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

11 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Lulu and Angel don't know about the body and Elektra doesn't want to involve them.  Moving the body would involve smells and possibly leakage in the rented car, and digging a big hole In that guy's backyard. Too many opportunities for discovery.

The only way I could ever see her disposing of him "safely" would be if she could carve off little bits at a time (including bone) and deposit them in random garbage cans. Even trying to flush the bits would be too risky in case the plumbing backed up and a plumber was needed.

Anyway, she's never going to voluntarily open that trunk again.

Won’t it stop smelling eventually? Many years ago, I smelled a dead pigeon or rat in an air duct. I couldn’t afford to hire someone to remove it. I sealed the duct, so it wouldn’t smell. I can’t remember how many months went by, but eventually I was able to remove the seal.

(I hope that wasn’t TMI.)

Edited August 17, 2019 by hoodooznoodooz

[hoodooznoodooz]

21 hours ago, aradia22 said:

YES to Patti Lupone's whole yellow ENSEMBLE. That was a look. 

I wanted to post about it, but thought no one else would’ve appreciated it, since all the other outfits the leads were wearing were pulling focus. I loved all the different shades of yellow. Beautiful.

Edited August 17, 2019 by hoodooznoodooz

[kieyra]

I don’t normally get heavily into discussing actors’ looks in any shows, other than innocuous stuff like hair color. But this conversation about passing has been interesting. I’ve never been sure why people call out Elektra—other than the height. Conversely, Angel has the most masculine face to me (square jaw and strong features), but that seems to be a minority opinion.

But I would honestly not look twice at any of them in public. That’s not some weird virtue signaling, I think it’s a combo of being a longtime consumer of drag and trans entertainment (meaning, I’ve actively sought out shows with non-cis actors*, once RPDR caused me to become aware of LGTBQ culture in general), plus as everyone points out, all these actresses are stunning. (Plus makeup, hormones, procedures, etc.) To put it another way, I think my brain has been rewired a bit by pop culture, and I’m fine with it. 

(*Which means I have sat through multiple seasons of the Rich White Dudes Doin’ Crime circlejerk show that is Billions, just to watch the amazing Asia Kate Dillon.)

[hoodooznoodooz]

1 hour ago, kieyra said:

I don’t normally get heavily into discussing actors’ looks in any shows, other than innocuous stuff like hair color. But this conversation about passing has been interesting. I’ve never been sure why people call out Elektra—other than the height. Conversely, Angel has the most masculine face to me (square jaw and strong features), but that seems to be a minority opinion.

But I would honestly not look twice at any of them in public. That’s not some weird virtue signaling, I think it’s a combo of being a longtime consumer of drag and trans entertainment (meaning, I’ve actively sought out shows with non-cis actors*, once RPDR caused me to become aware of LGTBQ culture in general), plus as everyone points out, all these actresses are stunning. (Plus makeup, hormones, procedures, etc.) To put it another way, I think my brain has been rewired a bit by pop culture, and I’m fine with it. 

(*Which means I have sat through multiple seasons of the Rich White Dudes Doin’ Crime circlejerk show that is Billions, just to watch the amazing Asia Kate Dillon.)

Ha! to the bolded. 

Me, too. I cannot take my eyes off Asia. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Since there was no ball this week:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Bianca's moonlight kiss:

Bianca and the girls in the morning:

[RealReality]

On 8/13/2019 at 9:48 PM, hoodooznoodooz said:

All right. Never mind everything I ever said. Elektra is the best.

I can never not love eleckra.  I think she was driving in both lanes...I was dying!  She is the worst driver!

I really think the next road trip needs to be too wong fu style to some desert to bury that trunk. 

Adrian was fione!  And a med student?  Get it Blanca!!!!

14 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Since there was no ball this week:

Ha, I'm convinced someone followed me around with a camera for "awkward in the body"

I had no idea that was bob the drag queen!!

[RealReality]

On 8/16/2019 at 9:00 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Lulu and Angel don't know about the body and Elektra doesn't want to involve them.  Moving the body would involve smells and possibly leakage in the rented car, and digging a big hole In that guy's backyard. Too many opportunities for discovery.

The only way I could ever see her disposing of him "safely" would be if she could carve off little bits at a time (including bone) and deposit them in random garbage cans. Even trying to flush the bits would be too risky in case the plumbing backed up and a plumber was needed.

Anyway, she's never going to voluntarily open that trunk again.

I don't know.  I don't think it has to be all that exotic.  Yes, there is weighing the risk/reward.  But sealing the trunk really well, renting a van or a moving truck and burying that trunk in the desert seems much less risky than leaving a stinking body in eleckras closet.  

Elecktra doesn't own that place and even if she did there are so many ways someone could legally enter her apartment.  And if it's stinking badly enough that it's out in the dining room area....that's not good. 

IIRC one of the reasons ira einhorn (sp) got caught was that his wife's body stank so bad that the neighbors could smell it.

[kieyra]

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a-famous-drag-queen-a-mummy-in-the-closet-and-a-baffling-mystery

[RealReality]

On 8/15/2019 at 12:24 PM, kieyra said:

This happens for me every episode, but I still enjoy it for the fun/frothy show it is. 

I'm 100% with you there. I'm okay that this show is like flinstone vitamins....it gives me some good history and makes cogent social points, but I get it in the tasty form of fashions, music, beautiful queens and everything that is elecktra.

Would transgender women at that time look as passable?  Probably not, but I'm okay with it.  I think the only time it is slightly jarring is when someone talks about getting clocked because....I might sooner get clocked as a man than any of them.

[eejm]

Elektra lives in a luxury apartment, where people would complain about smells and/or feel comfortable involving the police.  Dorian Corey lived in areas that were more economically deprived, where other residents had worse problems than bad smells and were less likely to call the police over anything.  I get that Elektra doesn’t have many options for disposing of the body, but I think she’d have far more problems keeping around than Corey did.

Edited August 18, 2019 by eejm

[hoodooznoodooz]

They show the trunk in the closet. There are coats and dresses hanging on the closet rods. Wouldn’t they reek to high heaven when Elektra wore them?  

[12catcrazy]

On 8/18/2019 at 2:14 PM, kieyra said:

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/a-famous-drag-queen-a-mummy-in-the-closet-and-a-baffling-mystery

Thanks for posting this link - what an interesting read!

[Pepper Mostly]

On 8/15/2019 at 12:25 PM, PrincessTee said:

I seem to be in the minority that thinks although Blanca is attractive, i can see where she doesn't pass as easily as say Lulu or Angel.  I  had to google to find out if Lulu and Candy were  in fact trans because i feel they pass so well.  With regards to Electra, the only thing that i believe gives her away is her height because she is giving me Grace Jones vibes.  

When I see Elektra, I see one person: Omarosa!