S03.E12: Sacrifice

[ferjy]

53 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That said, if you go into the episode expecting to hate it, I think that's probably what will happen.

Makes no difference. Viewers come in with high hopes only to have them quickly dashed repeatedly.

Edited August 9, 2019 by ferjy

[ferjy]

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

"It's a surprise!" for the slightly older ones, and toddlers and babies will probably be asleep, if, as I suspect, this is a middle of the night operation.  I'm sure the nannies know what they should say to each kid.

Children are way more unpredictable than that. Toddlers constantly get up at night for a glass of water, to go to the bathroom, because they had a nightmare. And babies can suddenly wail at any time of day or night. There's room for far too many things to go wrong, and unless they're planning on drugging them all, things are apt to go wrong.  Although probably not in June's world.

Edited August 9, 2019 by ferjy

[DangerousMinds]

40 minutes ago, ferjy said:

Makes no difference. Viewers come in with high hopes only to have them quickly dashed repeatedly.

Yet they come back each and every week for more 😂.

[ferjy]

2 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Yet they come back each and every week for more 😂.

It's like watching a train wreck, you can't look away! Actually that's been discussed here too. It's a matter of just seeing out the season. I think a lot of us won't be back next season. Unless this thread is as entertaining next year, that might be a big draw. 😃

[Umbelina]

One thing I'll place money on though.

Charlotte, Janine's baby, WILL get out.  😉  It will be lovely to see Janine happy.

[violet and green]

37 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Yet they come back each and every week for more 😂.

Stockholm Syndrome.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Children are way more unpredictable than that. Toddlers constantly get up at night for a glass of water, to go to the bathroom, because they had a nightmare. And babies can suddenly wail at any time of day or night. There's room for far too many things to go wrong, and unless they're planning on drugging them all, things are apt to go wrong.  Although probably not in June's world.

Mother of 3 here and I co-sign this. Babies can cry at any time, whether they're content or not. Some just like to scream for the fun of it.  No matter how good a "nanny" or mother is, shit happens. I knew exactly what to say to my child to get them to calm down and it still failed 5 times out of 10. That's what you learn when you're a parent-you give a wide breadth for error. 

No way in hell will I believe that Marthas can sneak 52 kids out of houses that contain commanders, wives, and possibly guards. I mean, it will probably happen because, SHOW, but I'm calling bullshit ahead of time. 

46 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Yet they come back each and every week for more 😂.

Heck, I've hated just about every episode this season and yet I STILL go into each one feeling pretty positive that THIS one will turn things around. As snarky as I can get, and as much as I love to talk shit about June and the show, I'm actually a pretty positive fucker most of the time. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by mamadrama

[mamadrama]

I'm just glad that you guys here so that I can snark and bitch about this mess with ease. If you're a huge fan of the writing and characters, there are plenty of places online where you can go and enjoy the lovefest for the show (I've been there, they're frightening), but it's much more entertaining hanging out with you all. Seriously, I would completely stop watching this trainwreck if we stopped this dialogue.

[Tesla]

On 8/7/2019 at 12:06 PM, lavenderblue said:

Mrs. Lawrence ODed, although I wasn't clear on what, given the whole plot thread about lack of easy access to various medications.

Right?  Was it too many muffins?  They clearly forgot their own plotline. 

Also, the stupid eyes at the end.  I second the vote for the baby closeups to end each episode, at least I won't feel violently annoyed when they happen. 

[goldilocks]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

One thing I'll place money on though.

Charlotte, Janine's baby, WILL get out.  😉  It will be lovely to see Janine happy.

Hmm, I don’t know. The show runners have probably forgotten there is a Charlotte.  😁

[kelslamu]

So, do single men still get to have handmaids in the house?

[AnswersWanted]

34 minutes ago, kelslamu said:

So, do single men still get to have handmaids in the house?

Nope, June should have been hauled off by Lydia already to go back to the center and wait to be reassigned. 

Of course that would certainly destroy her current plan to get the kids out so obviously that can't happen. 

They will leave her to help Lawrence mourn or some shit, you know, because Gilead is such a giver like that...

This show doesn't even take its' own universe seriously anymore. 

[Ariam]

16 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

“Bad writing” or not, people are still clearly watching, so the show is doing something right.

I've quit watching. I stopped paying around episode 3, and watched the other ones, but I couldn't bring myself to watching this last episode. I agree with the quote from someone earlier in this thread, that the show is offensive in how it's treating this sensitive subject. IMO they aren't doing anything right. To me they have turned an important story into a parody. 

[Ariam]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They will be with their nannies, and most of those kids probably know them better than their parents.  I doubt they will think they are being kidnapped.

"It's a surprise!" for the slightly older ones, and toddlers and babies will probably be asleep, if, as I suspect, this is a middle of the night operation.  I'm sure the nannies know what they should say to each kid.

 I doubt it will go off without a hitch, but I'm excited that they are trying to do this, and suspect it will work.  It's the finale after all, and Fred's already been arrested which was my first guess for a season ender.

That said, if you go into the episode expecting to hate it, I think that's probably what will happen.  I'm going to give it a chance, I've been impressed the last four episodes.  I love that we are finally seeing progress into the larger world.  They may blow it, but I hope they nail it.

I've said this before, but if anyone has ever tried taking a classroom of 25 children on a school trip, who are willingly and happily going, one knows how hard it is to take them all in order where needed. Taking 52 children, including babies away from their homes in a higly  guarded place, in the middle of the night would be insane. There is no way the best nanny on earth, or parent for that matter would be able to get them out quietly.

It was hard enough for Roberto Benigni to keep his son quiet in Life is Beautiful to survive the nazis, but there is no way 52 children would all simultaneously be ok with playing a game to keep quiet. One or 10 would be sure to start complaining, crying, need to pee, nag their friend and cause a quarrel, or anything at all that little humans do. But this show doesn't give a f*ck about trying to make things credible. The dystopia was supposed to be about the treatment of people and the insanity of gilead, not the insanity of the plot.

[AnswersWanted]

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Mother of 3 here and I co-sign this. Babies can cry at any time, whether they're content or not. Some just like to scream for the fun of it.  No matter how good a "nanny" or mother is, shit happens. I knew exactly what to say to my child to get them to calm down and it still failed 5 times out of 10. That's what you learn when you're a parent-you give a wide breadth for error. 

No way in hell will I believe that Marthas can sneak 52 kids out of houses that contain commanders, wives, and possibly guards. I mean, it will probably happen because, SHOW, but I'm calling bullshit ahead of time. 

Heck, I've hated just about every episode this season and yet I STILL go into each one feeling pretty positive that THIS one will turn things around. As snarky as I can get, and as much as I love to talk shit about June and the show, I'm actually a pretty positive fucker most of the time. 

I co-sign your co-sign, heh, I was a nanny back when I thought I liked kids enough to make it a career choice, spoiler alert that didn't work out, so just knowing how unpredictable kids are, the plan is already a failure.

Sure the show will make magic happen whenever it wants to because season 3 gotta season 3, but I don't enjoy this show enough to merely take the fanjob they're offering at this point. 

I am pretty much the same, I can be upbeat and let go of a lot of shit in a show that's earned it, THT has instead earned my wrath, and even when I think maybe they could still impress me or improve something they just do the exact opposite. 

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I'm just glad that you guys here so that I can snark and bitch about this mess with ease. If you're a huge fan of the writing and characters, there are plenty of places online where you can go and enjoy the lovefest for the show (I've been there, they're frightening), but it's much more entertaining hanging out with you all. Seriously, I would completely stop watching this trainwreck if we stopped this dialogue.

Same same. 

I come from the old board TWoP where it was often open season with fun and snark galore where eople were able to freely rant and complain to their heart's content, so I am definitely glad I found this site and you bunch. 

Without this board I wouldn't have returned for this season, I just can't quit you guys!

[Joana]

Hell, June couldn't take ONE child out of Gilead, her own child, that she obviously knew and could control, while the escape was still somewhat possible. Her second child, again, only one child, nearly died in the attempt to flee the country. Granted, she doesn't know that, but she knows how her previous escape attempts went. Also, she knows that a Martha got executed because she simply agreed to let a biological mother see her daughter. There are astronomical chances that at least one of the Marthas would somehow draw the unwanted attention to herself and it would be enough for the whole plan to fall apart. Or maybe Natalie was the only snitch in Gilead and now that she's gone, all secrets are safe. 

And now she thinks that getting 52 random children out will be smooth sailing? Well, maybe it will because they've now apparently opened the Fred and Serena Magical Road to Freedom, so they shouldn't even bother with Billy's plane and just take that route instead

Edited August 9, 2019 by Joana

[AnswersWanted]

26 minutes ago, Ariam said:

I've said this before, but if anyone has ever tried taking a classroom of 25 children on a school trip, who are willingly and happily going, one knows how hard it is to take them all in order where needed. Taking 52 children, including babies away from their homes in a higly  guarded place, in the middle of the night would be insane. There is no way the best nanny on earth, or parent for that matter would be able to get them out quietly.

It was hard enough for Roberto Benigni to keep his son quiet in Life is Beautiful to survive the nazis, but there is no way 52 children would all simultaneously be ok with playing a game to keep quiet. One or 10 would be sure to start complaining, crying, need to pee, nag their friend and cause a quarrel, or anything at all that little humans do. But this show doesn't give a f*ck about trying to make things credible. The dystopia was supposed to be about the treatment of people and the insanity of gilead, not the insanity of the plot.

Preach. 

I just fail to see why the show had to go this route. 

They had so many other believable avenues that they could have taken if they wanted June to join up with the resistance movement. 

They just don't care for any semblance of realism anymore.

June does not need this type of impossible "win" to solidify her "heroine" status. 

In fact, imho, she never needed to be a superhero at all, the show totally lost the plot and the point by forcing that angle so hard this season. 

There was no need for her to suddenly become this super BOSS who can do all. 

Let us watch her find her inner braveheart naturally, let us struggle along with her, cry with her, and celebrate her well earned victories and triumphs. 

Instead this show bogs everything down in this marsh of unrealistic lunacy that's way too unbelievable and ridiculous to get on board with. 

52 kids out of Gilead would not be possible unless Gilead has fully fallen and been rendered helpless. With the constant surveillance and armed guards, no one is moving that many little bodies at one time successfully. 

If this plan was attempted in any human reality, even one with fictional elements, the kids aren't getting out and everyone involved with the effort are dead. 

I feel like I'm going insane, does that count? Heh.

Edited August 9, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, goldilocks said:

Hmm, I don’t know. The show runners have probably forgotten there is a Charlotte.  😁

To be fair, when I saw "Charlotte", I didn't remember who that was either. This show does have a tendency to pick up and drop characters faster than a hooker's knickers during Fleet Week. 

[mamadrama]

23 minutes ago, Ariam said:

I've said this before, but if anyone has ever tried taking a classroom of 25 children on a school trip, who are willingly and happily going, one knows how hard it is to take them all in order where needed. Taking 52 children, including babies away from their homes in a higly  guarded place, in the middle of the night would be insane. There is no way the best nanny on earth, or parent for that matter would be able to get them out quietly.

It was hard enough for Roberto Benigni to keep his son quiet in Life is Beautiful to survive the nazis, but there is no way 52 children would all simultaneously be ok with playing a game to keep quiet. One or 10 would be sure to start complaining, crying, need to pee, nag their friend and cause a quarrel, or anything at all that little humans do. But this show doesn't give a f*ck about trying to make things credible. The dystopia was supposed to be about the treatment of people and the insanity of gilead, not the insanity of the plot.

Yeah, I hear you on the field trip thing. Last one I supervised we had 11 parent volunteers and by lunchtime two had wandered off and were found in the control room of the planetarium, one'd had an emotional breakdown in the gift shop when she didn't have enough money to get "space ice cream", two had vomited on themselves, and one had to stop and pee so many times that we all put our heads together and seriously thought of just investing in a large slurpee cup for the rest of the drive home. 

My son has been super sick over the past 3 weeks and we had to take him to the ER twice. (Fighting off bacterial meningitis. It's scary.) When I checked on him in the middle of the night, he complained about new neck pain and he was covered in a rash. My daughter is one of the most easy going kids you'll meet and she LOVES middle of the night adventures. I'm also her favorite parent. She was sleeping so well that it took me 15 minutes of fighting her and threatening to withhold Fortnight privileges before she'd even allow me to pick her up and carry her outside to the car, where she promptly fell back asleep. 

Like I said earlier, it only takes ONE to become confused/scared, to accidentally talk too loud, to knock something over on their way out the door, etc. 

Comparisons have been made to the Underground Railroad, but considering what a mess this is, I hesitate to make that comparison myself. (First off, Harriet didn't load  several dozens of people into the back of a cargo plane or ANY large vehicle, for that matter.) The UG was very well organized. It was a long, hard road to travel. Those who escaped had to be stealthy and brave. Ideally they'd move in groups of 5 or less. This is NOT how that worked. 

(I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here. I'm just irritated.) 

[kieyra]

4 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Yet they come back each and every week for more 😂.

Quite a few of us here stopped watching some time ago. You don’t really need to watch the show when the same three dumb things happen every week.

[mamadrama]

Am I the only one who thinks the general pacing of the entire series is weird? Ever since the end of S1 we've mostly just seen June trying to get out of that mess. I think they should've spent far more time on actually fleshing out Gilead. By the time we're introduced to the show and characters, all the big shit's already gone down. I feel like I missed something. I'd like to have seen some more inner-Gilead world building: discussions on new rules, teeth falling out in the Colonies, celebration of holidays, the kind of education the kids get, more about what goes on in the Red Center, spousal relationship outside of the ceremony (do husband and wife go on vacation at all and, if so, where and how), etc. There is so much they could've done. When we're first introduced to June, she'd already been a handmaid for a couple of years. I want to see the early stuff. If not the early stuff then at least more about the world the SoJ have constructed. Pictures on the food containers rather than words, food shortages, women more or less going stir crazy because most of their hobbies have been taken away, marriages being set up with youngish women, having to walk around with a partner, beautiful old churches being town down-THOSE things are the interesting (and scary) shit to me. I could take more of that. Instead, it's now all about June's escape(s). In one season she's "rescued" by Mayday. In the other season it's the Marthas. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's become formulaic. I want more of the gritty stuff, not just constant storylines revolving around someone helping June out and her acting ungrateful about it. 

[Joana]

What do you guys think, which 80s song will feature in the season finale? My money is on "Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves", to the final scene close-up of June looking on triumphantly as the plane with the children takes off. 

[kieyra]

6 minutes ago, Joana said:

What do you guys think, which 80s song will feature in the season finale? My money is on "Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves", to the final scene close-up of June looking on triumphantly as the plane with the children takes off. 

I'm pretty sure they haven't used "Cherry Bomb" or "Rebel Girl" yet, so I'm going with one of those two.

[rubinia]

If there is (or was) seemingly serious discussion about returning Nichole/Holly to her "rightful" parents the Waterfords, how would these 52 children being taken into Canada be any different? If their commander parents made tearful pleas on TV for the return of "their" children as Fred and Serena did, wouldn't Canada consider doing so? As others have said, I'm not arguing that the kids will be "better off" staying in Gilead, but it just seems like there are so many variables in this plan that could go horribly wrong at any moment. But we all know there will be a tiny bit of tension that will end with June looking tearfully and triumphantly up at the plane flying away as she's hauled off once again, having been captured.

[chaifan]

49 minutes ago, rubinia said:

If there is (or was) seemingly serious discussion about returning Nichole/Holly to her "rightful" parents the Waterfords, how would these 52 children being taken into Canada be any different? If their commander parents made tearful pleas on TV for the return of "their" children as Fred and Serena did, wouldn't Canada consider doing so? As others have said, I'm not arguing that the kids will be "better off" staying in Gilead, but it just seems like there are so many variables in this plan that could go horribly wrong at any moment. But we all know there will be a tiny bit of tension that will end with June looking tearfully and triumphantly up at the plane flying away as she's hauled off once again, having been captured.

Also, Nicole has the possibly-unique situation of not actually being Waterford's daughter.  What happens if any of the 52 children are actually biological offspring of a Commander, and the handmaid-mother is now dead?  Certainly that's  possibility, and in that case, it would be straight up kidnapping.  Or, if you have a handmaid that is a true believer, a willing participant in the system?  If her child were one of the 52, that would also be kidnapping. 

Is the plan to only saving little girls, since the girls in pink at the hospital were the catalyst for all this?

[AllyB]

3 hours ago, Joana said:

What do you guys think, which 80s song will feature in the season finale? My money is on "Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves", to the final scene close-up of June looking on triumphantly as the plane with the children takes off. 

Just been watching Glow, so knowing THT’s fondness for ‘borrowing’ from better shows, my money is on The Warrior.

[chaifan]

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Am I the only one who thinks the general pacing of the entire series is weird? Ever since the end of S1 we've mostly just seen June trying to get out of that mess. I think they should've spent far more time on actually fleshing out Gilead. By the time we're introduced to the show and characters, all the big shit's already gone down. I feel like I missed something. I'd like to have seen some more inner-Gilead world building: discussions on new rules, teeth falling out in the Colonies, celebration of holidays, the kind of education the kids get, more about what goes on in the Red Center, spousal relationship outside of the ceremony (do husband and wife go on vacation at all and, if so, where and how), etc. There is so much they could've done. When we're first introduced to June, she'd already been a handmaid for a couple of years. I want to see the early stuff. If not the early stuff then at least more about the world the SoJ have constructed. Pictures on the food containers rather than words, food shortages, women more or less going stir crazy because most of their hobbies have been taken away, marriages being set up with youngish women, having to walk around with a partner, beautiful old churches being town down-THOSE things are the interesting (and scary) shit to me. I could take more of that. Instead, it's now all about June's escape(s). In one season she's "rescued" by Mayday. In the other season it's the Marthas. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's become formulaic. I want more of the gritty stuff, not just constant storylines revolving around someone helping June out and her acting ungrateful about it. 

What I'd really like to know is where are they getting the manual labor to do all the grunt work it actually takes to run a society?  We never see garbage men or snow plows or street cleaners, but the streets are cleared and clean.  Same with landscapers, handymen, contractors, etc.  Who did the clean-up & rebuild after the Red Center was bombed?  The hospital is spotless, but we never saw a cleaning guy or orderly.  We know Omar was a delivery driver, but I can't imagine there are enough econo-husbands left to do everything.  They eliminated 1/2 the workforce by not allowing women to work, except as Marthas.  They eliminated a lot more through executions, the colonies, and those who got out of Gilead.  Is there a professional class?  Accountants (I assume Gilead collects taxes still), engineers, lawyers?  Is there even a court system outside the Commanders?  What do the boys learn in school?  How early are they put to work?  How are their career paths decided? 

So many questions about the underlying economy.  I'd rather have them take the first 1/2 of this season (up until the hospital episode) and covered some of that. 

[Helena Dax]

The logical thing to do would be to choose only kids who are old enough to remember their real parents: with 12 or 13 years old, for example. And only stolen kids, of course. Otherwise it would be kidnapping and no country would want to have anything to do with that. I mean, can you imagine if someone left North Korea with 52 kids taken from their real fathers/parents?

Speaking of which, NK is a good example of a country whose organization is mostly a mystery so I don't think it's impossible if the same is true about Gilead. Also, the world doesn't need to know more about the tortures, the rapes or the executions. They already know enough. If America wants to defeat Gilead, they need to know where they're hiding their nuclear weapons, for example, and that's hardly something an Aunt would know. And btw, I say America because maybe the rest of the world isn't all that interested in starting a war against Gilead. as long as Gilead isn't a threat to them.  Most of the horrors we're seeing in the show are happening right now for real in other parts of the world and I don't see anyone starting a war to stop them.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Helena Dax

[Whimsy]

On 8/8/2019 at 4:31 AM, scrb said:

Let me get this straight, in the wake of Winslow’s disappearance and Waterford’s capture, Spyros is one of the top commanders left?

Gilead is fucked!

I thought when June had the gun drawn, Nick was going to walk through that door, because we know June isn’t getting killed off any time soon.

Also thought after she checked on the door, she was going to smother Eleanor with a pillow or something.

Unless next season is the final one, I can’t imagine June will get out with Hanna and all those other kids.  There won’t be much reason to show Gilead any more if June got out and the Waterfords are never released to go back.

Apparently this was a rogue trip so the border much be pretty porous.  How would they have closed the border anyways?  And why would it matter if they’re flying out on a plane?

I thought this too. 

On 8/8/2019 at 9:17 AM, violet and green said:

So just how many more extreme closeups of EM's unfortunate glaucous eyes will it be possible to cram in before this season ends? How many more can we the viewer take, until our TVs explode in protest? I mean, she does do a good job of exposing the whites in different ways, but it's not what I call acting.  I cannot believe how completely this once excellent show has lost its sense of self and unity. We're supposed to hate June now, aren't we? Surely? But then we get told she's a BOSS. A boss. I am hanging in, just for Nick. This season should have been three episodes long, maybe four - but they didn't have quite the plot to cover three or four, even so.

Me too, but more because I wanted to see how the writers were going to illogically rewrite history with his story.  I can't believe they wrote a "shocking twist" to his story and then just left it dangling for weeks.  Such a weird way to write episodes, imo. 

[alexvillage]

17 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I'm angry and disappointed at that lost opportunity, too, but in hindsight it DOES kind of seem to go along with Luke's personality. I don't dislike him, but I don't like him either. I guess I am kind of whelmed by him. I think they were trying to make him kind of just this average dude, but there have been times when I have wanted to throw a punch or two at him. 

Putting my armchair psychologist hat on:

There is a personality type A.

There is personality type B

And now we have Luke's personality: personality type Meh.

[libsl]

After the looks Lawrence and June shared over Eleanor's grave, is anyone else expecting that somehow June will become the new Mrs. Lawrence for next season? Through a marriage of convenience they could work together to bring down Gilead. I expect that if it happens, June will have to make more difficult decisions to ensure her safety and power, perhaps sacrificing something or someone in order to reach her long term goals.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Comparisons have been made to the Underground Railroad, but considering what a mess this is, I hesitate to make that comparison myself. (First off, Harriet didn't load  several dozens of people into the back of a cargo plane or ANY large vehicle, for that matter.) The UG was very well organized. It was a long, hard road to travel. Those who escaped had to be stealthy and brave. Ideally they'd move in groups of 5 or less. This is NOT how that worked. 

Comparisons are made because it's directly referred to in the book as an "underground railroad" and Atwood, who likes to use things that really did happen, patterned it after the underground railroad to Canada during slavery.

There obviously weren't planes back then, cargo or any other kind.  Had there been?  I'm sure someone would eventually have tried to use one.

These kids aren't going on some days long journey by foot here.  They need to get to the plane, and we don't know how far that is...after they're on the plane, no more corralling or worrying, they will be in Canada very fast.

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

What I'd really like to know is where are they getting the manual labor to do all the grunt work it actually takes to run a society?  We never see garbage men or snow plows or street cleaners, but the streets are cleared and clean.  Same with landscapers, handymen, contractors, etc.  Who did the clean-up & rebuild after the Red Center was bombed?  The hospital is spotless, but we never saw a cleaning guy or orderly.  We know Omar was a delivery driver, but I can't imagine there are enough econo-husbands left to do everything.  They eliminated 1/2 the workforce by not allowing women to work, except as Marthas.  They eliminated a lot more through executions, the colonies, and those who got out of Gilead.  Is there a professional class?  Accountants (I assume Gilead collects taxes still), engineers, lawyers?  Is there even a court system outside the Commanders?  What do the boys learn in school?  How early are they put to work?  How are their career paths decided? 

So many questions about the underlying economy.  I'd rather have them take the first 1/2 of this season (up until the hospital episode) and covered some of that. 

I agree.  We've heard some stuff about the economy from Fred's fretting over the state of it all, but not nearly enough.  

Not using the Econofamilies more is one of my biggest complaints about this show.  Gilead hasn't been around long enough to decide or worry about what becomes of the econochildren.  I'd guess that the laborers do whatever it was they used to do, construction, garbage collection, plumbers, auto mechanics, etc.  In the book a lot of the "econofamilies" were soldiers and their wives/kids as well.

I'm sure especially fertile econowives were eventually accused of some kind of sin and reassigned to being handmaids, their children stolen.

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

The logical thing to do would be to choose only kids who are old enough to remember their real parents: with 12 or 13 years old, for example. And only stolen kids, of course. Otherwise it would be kidnapping and no country would want to have anything to do with that. I mean, can you imagine if someone left North Korea with 52 kids taken from their real fathers/parents?

Speaking of which, NK is a good example of a country whose organization is mostly a mystery so I don't think it's impossible if the same is true about Gilead. Also, the world doesn't need to know more about the tortures, the rapes or the executions. They already know enough. If America wants to defeat Gilead, they need to know where they're hiding their nuclear weapons, for example, and that's hardly something an Aunt would know. And btw, I say America because maybe the rest of the world isn't all that interested in starting a war against Gilead. as long as Gilead isn't a threat to them.  Most of the horrors we're seeing in the show are happening right now for real in other parts of the world and I don't see anyone starting a war to stop them.

True.

Also, Gilead has strictly controlled communications, and eliminated almost all tech for anyone except Commanders.  They also ruthless killed and still kill anyone who causes trouble.  Even with all of that though?  Resistance is still happening, they haven't occupied all of the USA, fighting goes on daily, and of course the Martha's/Handmaid's network has been around since before Emily first told June about it.

11 minutes ago, libsl said:

After the looks Lawrence and June shared over Eleanor's grave, is anyone else expecting that somehow June will become the new Mrs. Lawrence for next season? Through a marriage of convenience they could work together to bring down Gilead. I expect that if it happens, June will have to make more difficult decisions to ensure her safety and power, perhaps sacrificing something or someone in order to reach her long term goals.

Yeah, that bothers me too.  The one thing I wonder about is whether they will leave June there until they know if she's pregnant.  The other thing I wonder about is if Lawrence will be assigned a new wife, after all, a few Commanders are dead from that bombing, there are probably a couple of spare "wives" around.  

Either way, hopefully he'll be gone soon, and in Canada with the majority of the cast.  😉

[kieyra]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

Putting my armchair psychologist hat on:

There is a personality type A.

There is personality type B

And now we have Luke's personality: personality type Meh.

I remember back when I actually viewed this as a legit show and tried to analyze the characters. I used to think Luke's meh-ness and very mild sexism were meant to convey the inherent danger of complacence among men towards these huge threats to women and their freedom.

Now I realize I way overthought that.

[AnswersWanted]

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, I hear you on the field trip thing. Last one I supervised we had 11 parent volunteers and by lunchtime two had wandered off and were found in the control room of the planetarium, one'd had an emotional breakdown in the gift shop when she didn't have enough money to get "space ice cream", two had vomited on themselves, and one had to stop and pee so many times that we all put our heads together and seriously thought of just investing in a large slurpee cup for the rest of the drive home. 

I laugh only in solidarity of your suffering...hehe...

That's the kind of true to life story that would make an epic comedy movie. 

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Comparisons have been made to the Underground Railroad, but considering what a mess this is, I hesitate to make that comparison myself. (First off, Harriet didn't load  several dozens of people into the back of a cargo plane or ANY large vehicle, for that matter.) The UG was very well organized. It was a long, hard road to travel. Those who escaped had to be stealthy and brave. Ideally they'd move in groups of 5 or less. This is NOT how that worked. 

(I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here. I'm just irritated.) 

Tell the truth. 

If Harriet had operated the way the show is carrying on right now, she wouldn't have made one successful run. 

No resistance movement is going to go from 0 to 60 just because some random chick wants to do something big and bold. 

June's idea literally came to her during a mental and emotional breakdown, that's exactly how farfetched of an idea it was,  and it remains as such. 

To actually go through with it is batshit crazy and utterly unbelievable. 

At best it'd be a total suicide mission, at worst it would totally decimate the resistance network and everyone would suffer. 

Moving 52 of anything would take so much work and effort and timing, you could not risk a single misstep. 

 Kids are terrible cargo to take on a simple car ride to McDonald's.

They don't get secretly shuttled in the middle of the night out of their homes, for some the only home they may know, like it's no big deal. Some just would not go quietly if they even went at all. 

Kids also wouldn't just trust complete strangers who appeared out of the blue to "help them". The older kids especially would become alarmed and frightened, naturally, and possibly fight back. 

Even in the book when Atwood referenced the Underground Railroad created within Gilead she didn't imply anything happened like what the show is suggesting. 

She wrote her story entrenched in realistic past and present history, these mf-ers write plots involving killer pens and message muffins, the differences in the writing is night and day at this point. 

This plan is solely from the minds of these showrunners, and they don't care about it being reasonable or actually an obtainable goal.

They want a big flashy ending and they want June at the center of it, that's it. 

They should just go all in and have June turn into the pied piper, and she can go through the streets, easily luring all the children to her as she leads them to the plane without consequence. 

[Umbelina]

27 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I remember back when I actually viewed this as a legit show and tried to analyze the characters. I used to think Luke's meh-ness and very mild sexism were meant to convey the inherent danger of complacence among men towards these huge threats to women and their freedom.

Now I realize I way overthought that.

Actually I think that's true though.  😉

Also, add in that he's "real" in some ways, not evolved, not perfect, not brilliant, just a guy who cheated on his wife, didn't want to leave Gilead because, hey, it wasn't happening to him, just to women.  I'm still not sure about the casting though, and I know it's a mistake to assume a black man would have more sympathy to women's rights being taken away, just because he's black, but damn.  It made him seem even more stupid that his spidery senses and alarms weren't going off when his wife lost her job and money.

Another casualty of the ridiculous "colorblind" decision for the USA and Gilead.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Umbelina

[alexvillage]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Comparisons are made because it's directly referred to in the book as an "underground railroad" and Atwood, who likes to use things that really did happen, patterned it after the underground railroad to Canada during slavery.

The problem is that the writers don't get to have it both ways. They cannot extrapolate from the book and say it is a show, they had to change this and that, tweak a little, the story is JUNE'S story, blah blah, and then when they mess up on something that could have been a good idea but IT HAS TO BE JUNE! ended the Marthas' underground, they say they are doing what is in the book.

Nope. 

We need to be given more credit for common sense. If they want to sell their bullshit they need to come up with something else or end this misery because I'm not buying.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

The problem is that the writers don't get to have it both ways. They cannot extrapolate from the book and say it is a show, they had to change this and that, tweak a little, the story is JUNE'S story, blah blah, and then when they mess up on something that could have been a good idea but IT HAS TO BE JUNE! ended the Marthas' underground, they say they are doing what is in the book.

Nope. 

We need to be given more credit for common sense. If they want to sell their bullshit they need to come up with something else or end this misery because I'm not buying.

I'm not buying it either. Despite veering off wildly from the source material, they also keep defending themselves because, THE BOOK. 

No, you don't get to do that. You're no longer following the book. When you were, it was fine. You can't just wiggle out of poor decision making by citing the source material when you're no longer even following the source material. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by mamadrama

[mamadrama]

I feel like almost every time I post I'm getting a reply back that's trying to explain to me why I am "wrong." I understand this story. I have read the book, I am well aware of what Atwood was attempting to do, and I have a firm grasp of both world and American history. I understand the comparisons to the Underground Railroad, for instance: I just do not agree with how it's being presented within the context of the show. 

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Or because she isn't pretty enough to be the lead?

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Or Emily's because she's prettier?

This has absolutely nothing to do with looks, not sure why you keep bringing it up. First, the "ugly" we have referred to is the faces June makes, not her natural visage. Second, she could be (whoever the top supermodel is now, I don't keep track of them) and we would still have the same complaints. Furthermore, I don't find Elisabeth Moss is a very good actress, and again it has nothing to do with her looks.  It just happens that Emily and Serena are better actresses while also being better looking. Pure chance. If they were ugly as sin, I would still revere their acting.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, ferjy said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with looks, not sure why you keep bringing it up. First, the "ugly" we have referred to is the faces June makes, not her natural visage. Second, she could be (whoever the top supermodel is now, I don't keep track of them) and we would still have the same complaints. Furthermore, I don't find Elisabeth Moss is a very good actress, and again it has nothing to do with her looks.  It just happens that Emily and Serena are better actresses while also being better looking. Pure chance. If they were ugly as sin, I would still revere their acting.

Looks have not been brought up by ME until now.  However, they are constantly brought up here, so it's logical to assume that is a factor for many.  "She's so ugly!"  "Why would any man want her!"  "If I have to look at her ugly face one more time!"  etc.  It's endless.  So I'm honestly asking if that is a factor.  Would people be cheering this story if it was Alexis or Samira?

I think she's a fine actress, as are Samira and Alexis, also favorites of mine.  However, if you look up awards and nominations for acting?  Moss blows the other two away in sheer numbers and recognition.  So, apparently, she actually IS a good actress, at least as judged by her peers, and award committees.

[ferjy]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

"She's so ugly!"  "Why would any man want her!"  "If I have to look at her ugly face one more time!" 

I haven't seen the former two. I wouldn't agree with those either. But I've only seen the last, and again I stress, it's the faces she makes that are ugly that people are referring to.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Would people be cheering this story if it was Alexis or Samira?

Absolutely not. At one point they had a ridiculous scene with Emily, I think when she was at the rally in Toronto, and we were all fearing they were following the same route with Emily, we were afraid they would ruin her character. If she suddenly became a ninja, I'd complain about that just as much.

[mamadrama]

5 minutes ago, ferjy said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with looks, not sure why you keep bringing it up. First, the "ugly" we have referred to is the faces June makes, not her natural visage. Second, she could be (whoever the top supermodel is now, I don't keep track of them) and we would still have the same complaints. Furthermore, I don't find Elisabeth Moss is a very good actress, and again it has nothing to do with her looks.  It just happens that Emily and Serena are better actresses while also being better looking. Pure chance. If they were ugly as sin, I would still revere their acting.

Yep! Despite the lovefest that the show people have going on with June, the angles in which they choose to film Elisabeth Moss in are not flattering. I don't find her facial expressions, especially her smirk, appealing. You're right, though, in that my complaints have nothing to do with her looks. There are plenty of actresses who have nontraditional pretty faces and I still love the heck out of them. I actually like "ugly pretty" actors and singers. (I'm known for my obsessive attraction to Dwight Yoakam, for instance.) For me, it's a combination of the acting and the character itself.

I much prefer to watch Aunt Lydia/Ann Dowd. Her actions might be batshit crazy at times, even when she's "nice", but being a true believer makes her character interesting because there are layers involved. Ann Dowd isn't supermodel pretty, but the way in which she chooses to portray Lydia makes her super interesting. Yvonne and Alexis are naturally pretty women, IMO, but I find their acting skills vastly superior to Moss'. (Which is weird because as much as I loved THE GILMORE GIRLS, I couldn't stand Alexis' acting in that. At times it even ruined some pertinent scenes for me.) Serena Joy is a terrible person, but I enjoy watching Yvonne play her. I want Serena to suffer ramifications of her actions, but I do not want the actress to leave the show because I enjoy watching her. 

TL:DR I don't think Elisabeth Moss is a beauty, but it's her acting combined with June's personality that are off-putting to me. Serena Joy is sociopath, but I still prefer watching her character because the actress does it in a way that makes it hard to look away. 

1 minute ago, ferjy said:

I haven't seen the former two. I wouldn't agree with those either. But I've only seen the last, and again I stress, it's the faces she makes that are ugly that people are referring to.

Absolutely not. At one point they had a ridiculous scene with Emily, I think when she was at the rally in Toronto, and we were all fearing they were following the same route with Emily, we were afraid they would ruin her character. If she suddenly became a ninja, I'd complain about that just as much.

Yeah, I'd have equal complaints about Alexis or Samira if their characters made the same choices that June's makes. 

[ferjy]

8 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

as much as I loved THE GILMORE GIRLS, I couldn't stand Alexis' acting in that.

Not to pontificate the point, but this is it exactly. I used to eyeroll her acting in Gilmore Girls, even though she was pretty. I was floored at her acting in this. She's come a long way.

[AnswersWanted]

To take more than 1 or 2 during a rescue attempt could very well be logical, no one thought it was out of bounds to think they could get Emily, June, and Holly out all at once, because you had 2 adults and a tiny baby. 

At least it could be seen as doable.

But to suddenly throw us into the deep end of moving little kids, 52 of them no less, it wouldn't matter to me if Mother Oprah herself was behind the plan, it's just not a feasible endeavor.

The issue for me is how the show has written June, period.

They're the ones treating her like Captain Marvel with super powers to spare. They didn't have to write her like this, Offred never behaved like June has the past 2 seasons. 

The showrunners have totally transformed June and I for one hate what they've turned her into. 

She's rotten, self absorbed, cruel, cold, not at all smart, and she gets people killed, when she herself isn't doing the killing or watching someone die while she does nothing. 

Personally I find her actions and behavior indefensible. 

Miller and Littlefield decided to go all in with June Wick: BOSS edition,  and they can keep her ass for all I care. I can't take her seriously anymore, her or her impossible plans. 

[ferjy]

5 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

June's idea literally came to her during a mental and emotional breakdown, that's exactly how farfetched of an idea it was,  and it remains as such. 

Good observation. That should have been proceeded with Lawrence taking June gently by the shoulders and leading her upstairs, "Yes, June, we'll get all the children out," and locking her in the room instead of of Eleanor.

Edited August 10, 2019 by ferjy

[mamadrama]

21 minutes ago, ferjy said:

Not to pontificate the point, but this is it exactly. I used to eyeroll her acting in Gilmore Girls, even though she was pretty. I was floored at her acting in this. She's come a long way.

Yeah, that's a good point. In GG, she was one of my least favorite characters and she's very pretty. I couldn't believe she was hiding those acting chops all along. 

[ferjy]

On 8/8/2019 at 1:47 PM, DangerousMinds said:

“Bad writing” or not, people are still clearly watching, so the show is doing something right.

I highly disagree. Just because people are watching does not mean the show is doing anything right. People watch crap shows all the time then lament when they're taken off the air. As for people here, if we didn't have this thread, a lot of us would have given up by now. And still might after seeing this season out. Beyond all that, I'm sure they've lost a lot of viewers already. We're not the only forum complaining about the mess.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Looks have not been brought up by ME until now.  However, they are constantly brought up here, so it's logical to assume that is a factor for many.  "She's so ugly!"  "Why would any man want her!"  "If I have to look at her ugly face one more time!"  etc.  It's endless.  So I'm honestly asking if that is a factor.  Would people be cheering this story if it was Alexis or Samira?

I think she's a fine actress, as are Samira and Alexis, also favorites of mine.  However, if you look up awards and nominations for acting?  Moss blows the other two away in sheer numbers and recognition.  So, apparently, she actually IS a good actress, at least as judged by her peers, and award committees.

As judged by MamaDrama, she's not that great. So much of those award shows are political and not based on actual skills, anyway. There are many reasons why someone may win a Grammy, Emmy, Oscar, or CMA award. Skill is just one factor. At any rate, I base my opinions on how I feel about an actress and her acting, not what her peers or those in the industry say. I'm a big horror movie fan, and there have been many films that the reviewers and such have gone gaga over when I just flat out didn't like them. Not because I didn't understand the movie or because I didn't find the lead actor(ess) attractive, but because it just didn't do anything for me. As audience members and individuals, we can all watch the same thing and have different takaways and that's okay. That's part of what art is. (NOT implying that this show is "art", just using the broad sense of the word.) 

[ferjy]

10 hours ago, rubinia said:

But we all know there will be a tiny bit of tension that will end with June looking tearfully and triumphantly up at the plane flying away as she's hauled off once again, having been captured.

And she'll be sent to her room without supper as punishment.

[ferjy]

6 hours ago, kieyra said:

I remember back when I actually viewed this as a legit show and tried to analyze the characters. I used to think Luke's meh-ness and very mild sexism were meant to convey the inherent danger of complacence among men towards these huge threats to women and their freedom.

Now I realize I way overthought that.

Ha! These show runners would have no idea in the least how to write something with such depth.

"Let's make Luke badass. We'll have him punch Fred! Audiences will love that."

"Snicker, snort. Yeah, cool!" {{slapping high fives}}

Sigh, this is what I picture when I watch these sad scenes.

Edited August 10, 2019 by ferjy