Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Final Countdown

[Oxia]

Argh, disappointed now. I've only been able to watch once as I'm in the UK and the episode was taken off YouTube pretty quickly. ☹️

[tv echo]

Not much new...

'Arrow' Star Katherine McNamara Loves Being A "Sci-Fi Action Hero" — EXCLUSIVE
BY LEXI WILLIAMS   OCT 16, 2019
https://www.elitedaily.com/p/arrow-star-katherine-mcnamara-loves-being-a-sci-fi-action-hero-exclusive-19219035 

Quote

For a girl who grew up thinking she could never be strong, Arrow star Katherine McNamara has played some pretty badass characters. The actor rose to fame fighting demons as Clary in the beloved Freeform series Shadowhunters, and now kicks butt as the vigilante Mia in The CW's Arrow. But it wasn't always her plan to get into this genre of acting.

"I’ve sort of accidentally fallen into this world of sci-fi action heroes, but I love it," she tells Elite Daily. "I was a dancer as a kid, but I was never a fighter. I didn’t know how to throw a punch, I didn’t know how to throw a sword, I didn’t know anything."
*  *  *
And she doesn't have any plans to slow down now: In September, it was announced an Arrowverse spinoff starring McNamara is in the works, and a backdoor pilot for the potential new show will air sometime during Arrow Season 8.

But ahead of that, she teases a bit of what's to come in her current show's final season. "Each episode is a real love letter to something that has created the legacy of Arrow," she says. "For Mia in particular, it’s a very interesting season because she’s been quite the lone wolf her entire life. Now that she has a team — and a family and a brother — it changes everything."

[tv echo]

The Koalition is a video game site (bad audio)...

Joseph David-Jones Talks Connor Hawke's Future and Crisis on Infinite Earths
The Koalition   Oct. 16, 2019

You can also listen to this interview here:
https://thekoalition.com/2019/joseph-david-jones-talks-connor-hawkes-future-and-crisis-on-infinite-earths

-- On whether there is anything he is particularly excited to have fans see this season, JDJ: "I'm crazy excited they've already announced who's going to be playing JJ, and we - me and Charlie - um, we've worked really well together, first, a lot of different things in our performances to like really make that bond a strong one... I cannot wait for this season because it dives deeper into like the Diggle family as a whole. You know, it also dives very deeply into like my history, my background and like my relationships with both John and JJ. I'm like crazy excited."

-- On the (romantic) tension between Connor and Mia, JDJ: "It's still a very complicated relationship... They're trying to figure out the best way to protect the city and be heroes like their parents were... It's us trying to figure it out. We don't really know how to do that... It's like trying to figure out who should be leading the team, who should be taking the fore part... A lot of that is reflected in their relationship. You know, it's love-hate, I guess is the best way to describe it... There's conflict there. And there's conflict when JJ comes into the mix too... There'll be some stuff coming up that the SmoakNHawke fans - I think there's a lot in there that they're going to love, uh, without giving too much away."

-- JDJ: "When I started playing Connor, I really got into fitness." He said that Connor is supposed to be this really fit, expert fighter. He also said that he tries to do as much of the stunts as they can. He noted that everyone on the show is in "such good shape" and that everyone is "working out constantly." He thinks that he'll carry this fitness regimen into other projects in the future. He mentioned that DR is "a lot bigger in person."

-- On whether the storyline for the spinoff will be entirely in the future, JDJ: "They're still piecing together what they want the spinoff to be after this, because they want to find something that makes sense and that the fans are going to love. But also like it's different but doesn't like diminish the legacy of Arrow. So it's a delicate path to walk. And I don't know, I don't know. I mean, as you saw, like, they released that Katie Cassidy's going to be in it, and then Juliana's going to be in it. And we'll see if they're - if they're older in this or, you know, if some - I don't know, something happens... ride with the Legends or something." (JDJ did not say if he was in the spinoff.)

-- On whether there's anyone in particular he would love to have a scene with in the Crisis crossover, JDJ: "Oh my God, everybody." He said that he watched Smallville every day, so it would be "crazy" to work with Tom Welling. He also said there were a couple of people that he couldn't mention that he would love to have a scene with.

-- On what kind of happy ending does he want Connor to have at the end, JDJ: "It's funny because like I want - you know, in order for the show to like keep going, it's not like it has this sort of happy walk off into the sunset moment for the rest of the crew. I want that to happen for, you know, um, Oliver and everyone in the past and everything. But I want us to sort of find who we are as people and as a team... We're not there yet... We're so bad. (Laughs) I don't want to give too much away, but we're not where we need to be, um, at the start of the season. And I'd like for us to all find where we sit in the grand scheme of things and as a team and become heroes, like legitimately. And then have that be able to be something that carries over into this spinoff."

-- JDJ: "I'm not sure how much I can give away about Crisis. Let's just say that it's going to change everything... Yeah. Everything's going to change, and it's not just for our show, but, man, the entire Arrowverse is going to change drastically... I think fans are a little scared, especially with how much change is in the comics Crisis."

-- JDJ said that he's gotten a lot of advice from DR and RG. He also said that he's learned a lot from his fellow cast members on how to navigate Hollywood.

Edited October 17, 2019 by tv echo

[Chaser]

Bye Bye Zoe. 

[way2interested]

Just now, Chaser said:

Bye Bye Zoe. 

This doesn't help the canary turnover rate!

[apinknightmare]

5 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Bye Bye Zoe. 

We barely knew ye. You are but one of many (both living and dead). 

[Angel12d]

Hi. I'm only here for the commentary. 😂

But seriously, yet another casualty in making LL (and DD) relevant? Yikes. 

[lemotomato]

Now we know why the actress wasn't announced as a regular like the other flashforward kids.

It really sucks they're killing off yet another WOC character. Zoe had so much more potential than the other Birds.

[Chaser]

While I wouldn’t say I was fan of Zoe, I would say that I could have become one. I’m beyond annoyed that they keep killing off characters to make Laurel happen. And that they’ve now added Dinah to that group. 

[lemotomato]

10 minutes ago, Chaser said:

While I wouldn’t say I was fan of Zoe, I would say that I could have become one. I’m beyond annoyed that they keep killing off characters to make Laurel happen. And that they’ve now added Dinah to that group. 

Tommy, Sara, Quentin. Arguably Malcolm Merlyn, so she could take his space as the "familiar" villain in season 6. Every character was superior to hers. I hate this show.

[way2interested]

Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if in narrative this is actually to push Mia/FTA rather than about specifically for Dinah or Laurel, but yeah sure makes it convenient that now the only future canary is out of the picture just in enough time for the spinoff

Edited October 18, 2019 by way2interested

[JamieLynn832002]

I like Zoe but I'm more bothered by the idea of JJ killing her than I am by the death itself. I know JJ probably killed the guy shown this week and he presumedly didn't become the leader of the Deathstroke Gang by giving everybody puppies but it still feels like a line I don't want to see Dig's son cross.

[Featherhat]

Well assuming it is Zoe that would explain why she isn't in the pictures of the FF kids BTS recently and why she's not a regular and wasn't announced as part one of the canaries for the spin off. I wasn't a big fan of Zoe but I'm kind of sad. I guess it's one of KM's favourites because it gives her plenty of dramatic scenes to do and connects the past and present Team Arrow if the press release is accurate. Diggle's son killing Rene's daughter is a gut punch even though I don't like Rene. 

As for "who she was killed off for" I guess we'll have to see the context of the episode and possibly the context of the back door pilot to see who if anyone gains. BS did say they hadn't changed anything for the spin off, if she's telling the truth it could just be that they wanted to be shocking in the lead up to COIE and Zoe was the easiest one to let go of in that group. I'm currently wondering if any of Future Team Arrow survive to ep 9 except Mia, though I think at least Connor does. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Featherhat

[CabotCove]

They didn't have to kill Zoe to give way to any Canary, she could just have left the vigilante lifestyle, realizing it wasn't a life for her.  Renee expressed not wanting this life for her either. Seems like they wanted her death to up the stakes for the other 3 and give JJ/Deathstroke actual consequences. JMO.

Edited October 18, 2019 by CabotCove

[Josh371982]

Its sickening to me. What do JH and KCR have that I'm not seeing? Not a huge fan of Zoe but they dont have to kill off the character. Of course I'm still baffled why TIIC think KCR and JH would be huge selling points in greenlighting a Spinoff 

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, CabotCove said:

They didn't have to kill Zoe to give way to any Canary, she could just have left the vigilante lifestyle, realizing it wasn't a life for her.  Renee expressed not wanting this life for her either. Seems like they wanted her death to up the stakes for the other 3 and give JJ/Deathstroke actual consequences. JMO.

They don’t have to kill her to make way for another Canary, but death or permanent maiming of a predecessor is how it works on this show. 
 

Sara got shot and did a dumpster dive, Laurel got her spot. 

Laurel got an arrow to the gut, got temporarily taken over by Evelyn, then permanently taken over by Dinah.

Then E-2 Laurel starts her “redemption,” and oop! Can’t have two birds flying around with the same power, gotta have a serial killer cut out of their tweeters permanently. RIP Dinah’s cry!

Maybe Zoe doesn’t die or die for her successor(s), but there’s a good reason why people think that might be happening.

[Trisha]

This could be about the crossover but the way he words it makes me think it’s not? 

[tv echo]

'Arrow' Cast Talks 8th & Final Season
The Jam TV Show   Oct. 16, 2019

Quote

The final season of 'Arrow' premiered last night. It's the show that launched an entire universe --  The CW's Arrowverse. The series stars Stephen Amell and David Ramsey sat down with our Brandon Pope to chat about the show's legacy and the beginning - of Arrow's end.

-- SA: "When it's time to say goodbye, say goodbye. That doesn't mean what the Monitor has prophesized is gonna come true. But it's - it's important. When I'm - when I'm done with the show, I actually feel like it's in the best service of, not just the show, but the Arrowverse, so to speak, to actually really be done. Flash, it's gonna keep going, and Supergirl's gonna keep going. And I just hope they look back at what I hope is, you know, a decade or 12 years or 15 years, and - I don't know, I just hope they had a good time watching our shows."

-- On Arrow's legacy and what it's done for superheroes, DR: "First, I'm real grateful. I mean, but nobody saw this coming. Man, we were doing this in 2012, nobody could've possibly thought this could've happened."

Edited October 18, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

FYI, Mia is in the Supergirl episode with Oliver...

Source:
https://canadagraphs.weebly.com/crisis-on-infinite-earths-blogs/crisis-on-infinite-earths-supergirl-october-15-and-16-with-many-cross-over-cast

Edited October 18, 2019 by tv echo

[Chaser]

I wish they had Mia’s hair in a ponytail. A homage to Felicity and way more practical.

[Josh371982]

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

I wish they had Mia’s hair in a ponytail. A homage to Felicity and way more practical.

Hopefully she does put up. Shes got the hood homage to Daddy 

[Trisha]

Arrow's Stephen Amell Reacts to Tommy Merlyn's Shocking Reveal in Season 8 Premiere

https://www.tvguide.com/news/arrows-stephen-amell-interview-earth-2-destroyed-tommy-merlyn-dark-archer/

Some of the spoilery bits. I'm now curious about 806's "narrative technique":

Quote

Will Oliver be less reticent to let the team help him with this mission moving forward?
Amell: Yeah, I mean, Dig's (David Ramsey) involved and Laurel's involved, and by the time we get to our seventh episode, we've got a pretty big team with a lot of very familiar faces and a lot of really cool team-ups. It's good, it's exciting.

We got a short look at Oliver's relationship with the Monitor in this episode, but what can you preview about that partnership moving forward? Right now, it feels like the Monitor is jerking him around a lot.
Amell: Things aren't always what they seem. Right now the Monitor is being portrayed as evil incarnate, and we'll see. We will see.

Are there any particular episodes this season that you're looking forward to the audience reactions to?
Amell: I just watched a cut of 806 last night, which is David Ramsey's episode, and it's spectacular. It's so cool. It's so, so, so cool... He did a spectacular job, and it's a narrative technique that for obvious reasons we've never done on the show before, and I don't think that we'll ever get a chance to do again. So I thought he executed it extremely well, and it's a fun one for me. It kind of kicks off our endgame so to speak.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Trisha

[Featherhat]

I'm assuming that since the episode is called "Reset" then things in fact are going to get reset somehow and there's possibly some backwards and forwards about that for narrative technique. Time loop type hijinks maybe or straight up "this went wrong and the monitor gives us a second chance" stuff. Possibly highly angsty if we get the Arrow rather than LOT version. Or maybe certain past events get altered pre COIE ala Baby Sara. 

I can't really imagine Oliver travelling around with a big Legends like team of him, Dig, Laurel, maybe Thea and Roy, Rene and Dinah etc. Even though it got pretty big at times in the foundry and bunker. 

[apinknightmare]

25 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I can't really imagine Oliver travelling around with a big Legends like team of him, Dig, Laurel, maybe Thea and Roy, Rene and Dinah etc. Even though it got pretty big at times in the foundry and bunker. 

Since he mentions that there "really cool team-ups," I wonder if Oliver's traveling around with a bunch of people or if everyone's off on little sub teams working together toward a common goal. 

If it's the latter, please team Dinah and Laurel together so I get additional bathroom breaks, thank you!

[tv echo]

Stephen Amell Shares Why the Final Season of 'Arrow' Is 'So Special'
Damian Holbrook October 15, 2019 
https://www.tvinsider.com/822630/stephen-amell-arrow-final-season-8-returning-cast-crisis-crossover/ 

Quote

And if the premiere is any indication, you guys aren't holding back. 
We're really going for it this year. I mean, if you're were going to limp to the finish line, then all of us should have walked away with The Monitor and that could be it. But everyone in the writers room came back, everyone on the crew came back. Everyone that has been asked to come back — to the best of my knowledge — has said yes. To the point where I have read a couple of scripts, specifically Episode 7, which has got the most major character [appearing], and I was like, "Oh, come on. No way."

Can't wait! But you've got your cast regulars and then all of these guest stars lining up. Does it ever feel kind of crowded for you guys?
No, because it's really compartmentalized.  This is going to be in some, overly simplified, but each episode is its own episode. [Episode] 4 is a little different. But then [Episodes] 5, 6, and 7 really are their own story. If you imagine the first seven episodes [are heavy action], four is like an emotional intermission. That should be the title of the episode. [Laughs]
*  *  *
I get the impression that Oliver's journey is almost like a Wizard of Oz situation, where you have to go to various different earths or timelines to collect something. And along the way, you'll also be gathering one other person.
Yeah, I wouldn't say that's over-simplifying it. That's not the exact way that it happens, but that's roughly right. The Monitor is setting me out on task. Sometimes that's about retrieving something. And sometimes that's about learning a lesson.

Felicity was mentioned several times in the premiere. What are you guys doing to get Emily Bett Rickards  back?
I think if Emily wants to come back, she can certainly come back. She can write her scene as far as I'm concerned. But I don't know. I think, regardless, we've put a nice cap on her story.
*  *  *
As you begin working on the Crisis crossover, how has it been getting everything coordinated? Because, as the Number Ones on the call sheet, you and Melissa Benoist, Grant Gustin, Ruby Rose...you all have to be the quarterbacks for your shows.
It's been great. I mean, this year more than ever. By definition, we're talking about, Melissa Grant, me, Caity Lotz and Cress Williams...did I miss anybody? [Laughs] Everybody is a quarterback and wants the best. And do you know what I mean by Day Out of Days? It's what you call the schedule for an episode. The overall Day Out of Days for our crossovers, physically, is like two pages. This year, it's like a 55-page booklet.

I'm shooting a scene tonight with Melissa from Supergirl, we're using the Legends crew and an Arrow director. It should be a lot of fun. Honestly, I hope it's the most fun. And if you're a fan of the DC Universe, I hope watching Crisis is the most fun you ever have.

I love how they're going all out with getting actors not just from the Arrowverse but from the extended DC Universe. 
Oh, you have no idea...
*  *  *
And I'm sure they've got people waiting in the wings we haven't heard about yet?
Yes. It's really cool.

Since this is your last month...
Yeah, we wrap on the 13th of November.

How do you feel about Oliver now? He's had such a great emotional evolution for these last eight seasons. He's really grown and changed. How would you say he changes in these last 10 episodes?
Well, I mean, we'll see. How many stages of grief are there?

There's five.
Five? Well the seven episodes prior to Crisis are like those stages for him. I mean, there's still lessons to be learned. I think that some of the scenes I get to play once we get past Episode 3 are...you know, we are in our final season and I think I'm getting more chances to break new ground with my character, which is so great and uncommon.

That is great. How much of a break are you going to take before your wrestling show, Heel?
I think we're going to start filming some time in March but that's still up in the air a little bit.

Edited October 19, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Matt's Inside Line: Prodigal Son Scoop, Plus Riverdale, Chicago Fire, Grey's, Batwoman, New Amsterdam and More
By Matt Webb Mitovich / October 18 2019, 
https://tvline.com/2019/10/18/prodigal-son-spoilers-season-1-bright-dani-jessica/

Quote

Any more scoop on the Arrowverse’s “Crisis on Infinite Earths” crossover? –Derrick
The question of exactly which Lyla Michaels (ours, or another Earth’s) will be assisting The Monitor as Harbinger will be answered “pretty fast” — specifically, in Arrow’s third episode, says showrunner Beth Schwartz.

[tv echo]

Katherine McNamara Dives Into The Final Season Of The Hit CW Show, "Arrow"
BUILD Series   Oct. 18, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tsgVRVZtq8

-- KM: "Well, the biggest thing about this season in general of Arrow is that, for people who love the show, it's gonna be really special, because each episode kinda pays respect to a different aspect that has made Arrow Arrow. You know, we saw with the first episode, it went back to the pilot, it went through all of those moments and all of those characters that we loved so much. And that continues throughout, so it's - it's a really, really special way to pay tribute to this legacy that's been built. So with Mia in particular, we saw this kind of in the first episode, she's having to work on a team for the first time. She was raised by her mother alone in a cabin, trained by Nyssa al Ghul, who's an assassin. She's very much a lone wolf and is not used to having to consider the opinions of others or the safety of others. And that, particularly with her brother William, she promised her mom that she would look out for him, and he doesn't fight the way she does. She can't be there all the time to protect him, so - I mean, we even saw in that moment where the - the - you know, JJ gets the upper hand because she's concerned about William. That's a very real fear for her because it's the one thing she promised her mom. And that's something that's going to play into the season quite a bit."

-- On how much they have filmed, KM: "I just finished the crossover... So, yeah, that's all I can say. That's all I can say, is that I'm in the crossover, and I can say no more than that. But, um, I just finished my pieces for the crossover... We have two more episodes to shoot for Arrow. And then, that's Arrow."

-- On the backdoor pilot and the tweeted "Green Arrow and the Canaries" comics cover, KM: "All I can say is, it's exciting to see what - what is coming. Potentially. You know, there - I know in episode 9 of Arrow, it kind of goes to what happens next. That's kind of the beginning of - the beginning of the epilogue of the series. And we'll see what they - what they do. I actually, truly don't know a lot yet. (Interviewer asked if they've filmed episode 9 yet)  No... We're about to start 9, so I'm just now getting information. I really don't know much... I've been, you know, in crossover land. So I've been in pretty much every different universe you could possibly imagine at this point. Um, I actually haven't been to the Arrow set in almost three weeks. Yeah. So that's been a huge departure. But I tell you what's so fun about crossover is that you get to see the interaction between different characters you would never otherwise see. And just for Mia, as a nerdy fan, it's so fun to just be on set. Everybody's in their suits. I'm like, (smiley reaction). It's so cool." She also talked about how each set "has it's own personality."

-- On why episode 4 is her favorite this season, KM: "Episode 4 is a huge turning point. It's really the end of episode 3 into the beginning of episode 4. It's - it changes everything. It's a huge moment and a huge event that not only changes Mia forever, but also changes the course of the entire arc of the story. And, uh, that's what you have when you're building to Crisis. 'Cause all bets are off and there are no rules anymore. And literally anything can happen. And it rocks Mia's world in a way that she never thought possible. And it really is going to force her to confront everything that she's tried to push away in her life."

Edited October 19, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I know that we're expecting Zoe to be the one to die in 804, but what if it's William? KM keeps talking in interviews about how she promised her mom that she'd protect her brother. What if it's William who dies? And that takes Mia down a dark road of grief and guilt... leading into the spinoff? I would hate it if William died, but it would be so Arrow.

Edited October 19, 2019 by tv echo

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I know that we're expecting Zoe to be the one to die, but what if it's William?

BL filmed through 807. AS stopped filming in Vancouver around 803/804. It's more likely Zoe at the end of 803 in that fight in the promo pics.

Edited October 19, 2019 by way2interested

[tv echo]

[Featherhat]

I did think about William when reading that interview because there's zero hint he's meeting Oliver in COIE or the spin off yet but I remembered BL apparently filming later on in the season. I know Arrow likes it's "twists" but making a character a regular for 3-4 eps seems overkill. I'd say it's more likely Zoe, though not 100%. Or if it is William maybe it gets "reset". 

[Velocity23]

Quote

Following the destruction of Earth-2, Arrow season 8, episode 2 picks up in the aftermath of their rushed exit before the anti-matter wave swallowed them hole, leading Oliver and Laurel to begin to understand what was lost.

Quote

Arrow season 8, episode 2 is a solid outing and continues to build on the premiere and raise the stakes for everything that is at risk if “Crisis on Infinite Earths” comes and the heroes are unprepared. Meanwhile, the flash-forwards continue to disappoint, but they shed some light on the relationship between Connor and JJ, while leaving off on a cliffhanger that should at least liven them up a bit.

Quote

Oliver’s decision

Arrow season 8, episode 2 is another heavy episode, arguably more so than the premiere, in which Oliver realizes what is at stake when “Crisis on Infinite Earths” comes to pass. Despite being emotionally heavy, it’s a fantastic episode with too many callbacks to Arrow season 3 than I could count. 

As we saw on Earth-2, Oliver still desperately misses Felicity and Mia (and William, too, but you know how that is). He’s still struggling with his decision to leave his family to help the Monitor, even though he’s fully aware of the deal he struck to keep Barry and Kara safe during “Elseworlds” the year prior. Even though Emily Bett Rickards is no longer on the show, Arrow is very much keeping Felicity and her importance to Oliver, in particular, alive.

Her absence is very thoroughly felt as the show finishes up without her. I can’t help but wonder what would have happened if Felicity had been part of this season. How would it have changed to accommodate her role in Oliver’s life and on Team Arrow? Many of the scenes I’d expect Felicity to take part in with Oliver and being written to build on the relationship with Oliver and Diggle.

Quote

The realization of loss

Laurel’s journey in this episode is, by far, my favorite, and it gives such great, in-depth insight into how far she’s come since being Black Siren on The Flash season 2 and Arrow season 5. After losing her home, her entire planet, and everyone she loved on Earth-2, Arrow wastes no time digging into her grief and the trauma that has just been inflicted upon her.

Katie Cassidy-Rodgers said, in our interview with her, that Laurel is a very emotional person, and that was an understand for Laurel’s story on this episode. How does one come to terms with the fact that everything she’s known is gone, especially in such an awful way? The surface is only scratched during this hour.

Quote

Crisis and familiar faces

More so than the premiere, this episode really drives the “Crisis on Infinite Earths” story forward, and it’s clear much of the set-up for the crossover will be done on Arrow, as Oliver Queen is deeply intertwined with the Monitor and his plan. Plus, there’s a jaw-dropping revelation about the Monitor that begins to tie everything together.

Like on the premiere episode, Arrow season 8, episode 2 is full of familiar faces. Tatsu AKA Katana returns as Oliver, Diggle, and Laurel work on the Monitor’s next mission, lending her invaluable hand to Oliver and his journey once more. On the other hand, Lyla returns to help one of the characters deal with the events of the premiere.

(For those hoping to see the Earth-1 versions of Dinah and Rene, this is not your episode. There’s not even a glimpse of the present day Star City.)

https://www.hypable.com/arrow-season-8-episode-2-screener-secrets/

[tv echo]

I was thinking about how both MG and SA have both teased that there's a third option for Oliver's fate (other than death and faked death).

Recently, I watched an old episode of Stargate SG-1, in which

Spoiler

Daniel got lethal radioactive poisoning while trying to save another civilization. There's no way to save him. However, instead of dying, he "ascends" to a higher level of existence and becomes this bright glowing light. (Of course, iirc, Daniel mysteriously returns to life and to the show later on in the series.)

What if Arrow is going to do something similar like ascension? By his sacrifice, Oliver becomes a higher being - maybe one of the "Paragons" mentioned in the Monitor's voiceover for 801.

Edited October 19, 2019 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

20 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

The realization of loss

Laurel’s journey in this episode is, by far, my favorite, and it gives such great, in-depth insight into how far she’s come since being Black Siren on The Flash season 2 and Arrow season 5. After losing her home, her entire planet, and everyone she loved on Earth-2, Arrow wastes no time digging into her grief and the trauma that has just been inflicted upon her.

I hope they don't spend too much time on this. All we know about her home planet is that she spent a whole lot of time killing people on it, that she had a sister and a niece/nephew, that she forged a bitchy working relationship with The Hood, and was friendly enough with Tommy Merlyn that they shared a drink at Oliver's welcome home party. They never gave us any indication that she actually cared about anyone a whole lot considering that for 95% of last season she'd rather hide behind E-1 Laurel's identity to live the good life rather than go home, face the consequences (of which it seems there were none) for what she'd done, and see the people she loved enough that their loss would cause her "grief and trauma." 

[Primal Slayer]

While I doubt we're get much of Laurels grief, I am excited to see how it plays out. Going back and attempting to right your wrongs only to have everything and everyone pulled from right under you should be traumatic and a huge moment for her.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I hope they don't spend too much time on this. All we know about her home planet is that she spent a whole lot of time killing people on it, that she had a sister and a niece/nephew, that she forged a bitchy working relationship with The Hood, and was friendly enough with Tommy Merlyn that they shared a drink at Oliver's welcome home party. They never gave us any indication that she actually cared about anyone a whole lot considering that for 95% of last season she'd rather hide behind E-1 Laurel's identity to live the good life rather than go home, face the consequences (of which it seems there were none) for what she'd done, and see the people she loved enough that their loss would cause her "grief and trauma." 

Same. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they do have her care, simply because now that she’s a “hero,” they think she should? Although it would make more sense for her to care in the sense of “I just returned and could have built a life/rebuilt relationships/etc. and won’t have the chance to do that now.” That would actually be better/more interesting to play with her since her relationships with E1 characters are supposedly more important given what they want us to think of her this season/last season/the potential spinoff. 

But, yeah, I hope there’s only one or two conversations about it.

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Going back and attempting to right your wrongs

But did she even do that? I feel like the show wants us to forget all the evil she did prior to the “hesitation” she showed when she killed Vince. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Same. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they do have her care, simply because now that she’s a “hero,” they think she should?

Oh I wouldn't be surprised either, they just - as per usual - didn't put in the work to get us there. People who like Laurel won't care though, so I guess it doesn't matter, haha.

[Featherhat]

30 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I was thinking about how both MG and SA have both teased that there's a third option for Oliver's fate (other than death and faked death).

Recently, I watched an old episode of Stargate SG-1, in which

  Reveal spoiler

Daniel got lethal radioactive poisoning while trying to save another civilization. There's no way to save him. However, instead of dying, he "ascends" to a higher level of existence and becomes this bright glowing light. (Of course, iirc, Daniel mysteriously returns to life and to the show later on in the series.)

What if Arrow is going to do something similar like ascension? By his sacrifice, Oliver becomes a higher being - maybe one of the "Paragons" mentioned in the Monitor's voiceover for 801.

I was kind of thinking that after the Monitor's voice over. It's not that different from alternate dimension or paradise dimension (could indeed be one of those things just a little more celestial) and would also fit with the Monitor's "you can never come back.." speech to Felicity. Could be that we won't find that out until the series finale though and COIE ends ala Endgame with ep 9 the Oliver-less clean up/back door pilot. 

[apinknightmare]

28 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Going back and attempting to right your wrongs only to have everything and everyone pulled from right under you should be traumatic and a huge moment for her.

I would believe that she feels grief and trauma over not being able to complete her newfound mission before I'd believe she felt grief and trauma over people losing their lives and a whole earth being destroyed, so it might not be so bad if they go this route. 

[tv echo]

'Arrow' Star Katherine McNamara on Why Her Character is a 'Punch First, Ask Questions Later Gal' [VIDEO]
October 18, 2019
https://cheddar.com/media/arrow-star-katherine-mcnamara-on-why-her-character-is-a-punch-first-ask-questions-later-gal

Quote

The eighth and final season of CW's 'Arrow' has kicked off. What can we expect from Mia Smoak this time around? Actress Katherine McNamara joins Cheddar to discuss how her character evolves and her love for superheroes.

-- KM: "What's interesting is when we found Mia last year, she was a cage fighter, she was totally in her element, kicking ass and doing everything that she does best. But this season, she's still the same Mia, but now is working as a team. And that is, being raised by Nyssa al Ghul, who's an assassin, and by her mother kind of in isolation in the woods, she isn't used to working well with others. And, being a punch first, ask questions later kind of gal, it takes a minute of adjustment."

-- On what she is most excited for us to see Mia conquer this season, KM: "Well, this season of Arrow is really special, because the writers knew this was the final season, they were really able to craft something to honor the legacy of Arrow. So each episode goes back to an element that really made Arrow what it is. So as we saw with the first episode, we went back to the pilot and kind of teased old characters in a new way. And that kind of thing only continues as the series moves forward. And with Mia, very quickly, um, a series of events takes place that changes her forever and will completely rock her world in a way that she's really forced to confront everything that she's tried to push away. And everything that's - that's hardened her, she has to kind of bring to the forefront, which, when it comes to emotional things, that's really not her forte. Um, she doesn't quite know how to handle when things like that come up. So it'll be interesting to see what happens." On preparing to play a character that's not good at handling emotions, KM: "You know, it's kind of the most fun, because when you have these characters that are so strong and so confident in who they are, when they are taken back a step, when they are knocked down, you get to see that kind of underlayer of vulnerability, and that is kind of a fun layer of juxtaposition to play around with and see what colors come out."

-- On what she would want to see from Mia if a spinoff were to happen, KM: "Well, what's so great about this season is, you get to see what the legacy of Arrow means. And if it were to continue, I would hope that that would be Mia's path, to fit into an Arrow kind of world and to be able to protect the city that she has grown up and that she loves so much and that her parents worked so hard to create."

Edited October 19, 2019 by tv echo

[Primal Slayer]

39 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Same. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they do have her care, simply because now that she’s a “hero,” they think she should? Although it would make more sense for her to care in the sense of “I just returned and could have built a life/rebuilt relationships/etc. and won’t have the chance to do that now.” That would actually be better/more interesting to play with her since her relationships with E1 characters are supposedly more important given what they want us to think of her this season/last season/the potential spinoff. 

But, yeah, I hope there’s only one or two conversations about it.

But did she even do that? I feel like the show wants us to forget all the evil she did prior to the “hesitation” she showed when she killed Vince. 

Saving people and the city would be a sense of attempting to right her wrongs. But that is probably why we shouldn't have gotten 2040 in the premiere, if you're going to destroy an Earth and have the ramifications play out throughout the season....we need as much time with these people as we can get.

[Velocity23]

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Saving people and the city would be a sense of attempting to right her wrongs. But that is probably why we shouldn't have gotten 2040 in the premiere, if you're going to destroy an Earth and have the ramifications play out throughout the season....we need as much time with these people as we can get.

It seems both 2019 and 2040 are gearing up for Mia and Oliver to meet. Its also instrumental to set up the spinoff. And honestly its hard to say how much time can be spent on E2 BS with what we know about what will be happening in future episodes. BS probably wont be seen much in episodes 3 and 4 and Katie teased there is a Dinah and BS dynamic coming up. Which suggest they only starting doing some spinoff work. 

[tv echo]

I don't think this article was previously posted because I can't find it in my notes...

How “Crisis on Infinite Earths” Changed the Trajectory of ‘Arrow’s Final Season
BY CHRISTINA RADISH      OCTOBER 15, 2019
https://collider.com/arrow-season-8-interview-marc-guggenheim-beth-schwartz-crisis-on-infinite-earths/

Quote

What do you think it’ll be like to watch the Arrow-verse continue without Arrow?
BETH SCHWARTZ: I’m curious about whether they’ll talk about our characters, and whether we’ll see some of our characters on their shows. I don’t know. It is a little bit strange to think that the flagship show isn’t gonna be in the next fall line-up. But right now, we’re focused on this last season.
*  *  *
What can you say about the relationship between Oliver and Diggle, this season?
GUGGENHEIM: By design, the season is very much centered around just the two of them. It’s funny, now that Felicity is not part of the show, we’re down to just Oliver and Diggle. It’s always been Oliver and Diggle, or Oliver and Felicity, or Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. We’ve gotten rid of two out of the three, so now the remaining dynamic, especially with Thea gone, the remaining dynamic is now Oliver and Diggle. What we’re going for is that we’re trying to infuse, in the season, a sense that the end is nigh. These characters know, not in a meta sense, that the show is ending after 10 episodes, and that imbues their relationship with higher stakes and a greater sense of emotion. To me, that’s really, really critical for Season 8.

SCHWARTZ: The Oliver and Diggle bromance is very much alive, this season. It’s really special because it’s what started the show. There are so many throwbacks for the earlier seasons that I suggest everyone binges, if they weren’t already planning on doing that, before [watching this season]. There are so many callbacks, and to have the two of them, who started it all, going through this last season there, their relationship is one of the main focuses.

How does Katie Cassidy fit into things?
GUGGENHEIM: She’s fantastic. I can’t talk too much about Katie without spoiling things. The reason I haven’t talked about Katie is that it’s very hard to do it without spoiling 801. Katie directed 803, and it’s been such a privilege to watch her prepare to become a director. She’s just been so professional. She was acting in 802, while prepping 803, and putting in 24/7 days. She’s just tireless. She’s amazing. She actually has some great, fun things to do in Season 8, but I can’t talk about any of them because it ruins the end of 801. You asked which character turned out completely differently, and Laurel is probably the best answer. The whole idea of Black Siren was never in the game plan. It was just the idea of bringing Black Siren back for 509 was a one-off idea, and we loved having her back so much that (CW President) Mark Pedowitz called, very similar to the way he did with Emily [Bett Rickards], and said, “You’re gonna have her back again, right?” And we were like, “We’re way ahead of you.” When Katie came back as Black Siren and when Emily was introduced to the show, those were two times where Mark Pedowitz said, “You’re doing more with her, right?” And we were like, “Now we are.”
*  *  *
What can you say about the new generation of characters on the show, with Mia and Connor?
GUGGENHEIM: They’re so great. The cast of the future storyline, I don’t know how we got so lucky, but we actually managed to cast actors who are great, and who are incredibly professional and nice people, and who get along really well. It was almost like casting a brand new show in many ways, and to be able to strike lightning twice is really hard. I’m shocked and amazed that we pulled it off.

How do you balance the fact that you had this satisfying ending to Felicity, knowing that Emily Bett Rickards was leaving, but still have her feel like a part of the world?
GUGGENHEIM: That’s a great question. It’s a challenge. The way I look at it is that it was a perfect ending for Felicity. Were Emily to return to the show, it wouldn’t be to provide an ending to Felicity’s story, it would be to provide an ending to Oliver’s story. They’re two different exercises. As a viewer, I hate when an actor or actress leaves a show, and then, suddenly, it’s like they’re dead and you never talk about them. We’ve never been that way, on this show. Take Sara Lance, who died in the pilot. We had no intention of bringing that character back to life, when we first started out the show, and yet, you hear about Sara, all the time. It’s part of creating a real, lived-in universe. If someone leaves your life, you still talk about them. So, we’re still talking about Felicity. There’s a moment in Episode 801 that’s a big acknowledgement of Felicity. I hope it makes the cut because it’s really funny and fun. Emily’s not in it, but it’s a major acknowledgement of Emily and Felicity. You’ve gotta have those moments, otherwise their absence is really suspicious.

SCHWARTZ: Because we didn’t know if she was gonna come back in our final season, it was really important to me and everyone else to make sure we had a good ending for her, just to prepare ourselves. Writing that last scene, not only did I cry when I was writing, but every time I saw it in a cut, in post, and during the final mix, everyone looked at me and was like, “Oh, god, here she goes again.” I don’t normally cry because I’ve seen the episodes a million times, but that final scene, the performances from Stephen [Amell] and Emily, and just knowing that was the end of that character, was really emotional.

Is there a plan for if she does come back?
GUGGENHEIM: Yeah. There are plans for everything, honestly. In many ways, that’s what you have to do, especially in this kind of situation.

SCHWARTZ: Obviously, we’d love to have her back for the final season, but I’m really happy with how we ended her character. I know she’s said this, too, so unless we find a creative way that’s better than that, we’re not gonna just bring her back to bring her back.
*  *  *
Will we also hear more announcements on people returning?
GUGGENHEIM: Yes, there are so many more. We’ll be doling out that information, as the season goes on.

What can we expect from the characters that you have announced, that are coming back?
GUGGENHEIM: They’ll be a little different. The way I would put it is that 801 is our re-visitation and our remix of the pilot. If this season is a re-visitation of our greatest hits, this is like going back into the recording studio and messing around with the balance and the mixing of it, and it’s a lot of fun.
*  *  *
Is there one particular character that’s very different from how you thought they would be? Did their journey become so the different that they couldn’t end up where you expected?
GUGGENHEIM: That’s a good question. No. It depends upon, expected from when? For example, there was never a Felicity Smoak in the pilot, and there was no Felicity Smoak in the overall plan of the show, so that alone changed everything. The governing philosophy of Arrow is that I like to break a show the way I like to go to Europe, which is that I like to have a plan – I like to have my theater tickets and my restaurant reservations and my museum tickets – but then, I like to be able to give myself freedom to deviate from the plan. And I really think that’s exactly what we’ve done with Arrow. And by the time Arrow is finished, I think it’ll be particularly true, where we always had a plan, always had ideas, and always had certain things we felt we were moving towards, and for the most part, we’ve honored the spirit of that, but we’ve also given ourselves the freedom to react to things, like when a great actress like Emily comes along, we write towards that character. We’ve be open to new and different ideas, so that when different opportunities, like having “Crisis on Infinite Earths” as part of our universe, comes along, we can take advantage of that.
*  *  *
What’s exciting about also getting to build to this big crossover, with “Crisis on Infinite Earths”?
SCHWARTZ: It’s so different for us. We’ve never done that before. The crossovers usually stand alone. We get to it, and then we barely talk about it after. It’s like a dream that happens. But this year, everything focuses on it, which actually works perfectly for our final season. We’re not just ending a season. We’re ending seven years, leading up to this eighth season. And so, it allows us to touch on all of those previous seasons because it opens up our world. It’s not just Star City. It’s all of the characters, and Arrow is the one that started all of that.       

Is it tricky to find that balance between continuing to tell new story while you’re also juggling the legacy of all of these seasons of the series?
SCHWARTZ: It surprisingly hasn’t been. Once we knew that we were gonna tell the story leading up to “Crisis,” I especially wanted to make sure that we see all of the characters that have had a huge impact on the series, and even the places that did, it all seemed to fit together.

Is it fun, before you say goodbye, to get to bring in the cast of Black Lightning, as well?
GUGGENHEIM: We obviously didn’t know that we could plan to end Arrow at the same time that we’re doing “Crisis on Infinite Earths,” but it’s turned out to be a really wonderful synergy. We’ve been able to think of the finale with an eye towards “Crisis,” and think of “Crisis” with an eye towards the finale. And now, the ability to bring in Black Lightning, who was one of the characters on the top of our list, in terms of characters that we wanted to have be a part of the crossover, it’s just great. We’re very, very fortunate. Black Lightning was the last piece of the puzzle.

When you’re building to a story as big as “Crisis on Infinite Earths,” people have been speculating since you teased it with the last crossover. What would you say to the people who are speculating, who are sure that they know how things are going to end? Would you say that they just have no idea how things are all going to play out?
GUGGENHEIM: It’s funny, the thing I’ve learned is that Twitter is basically crowd-sourced story breaking, in the sense that it’s impossible to come up with something that no one could have foreseen ‘cause you’re dealing with tens of thousands of people, who are all coming up with different ideas. Some of those ideas are gonna be things that we’re doing, and some of those ideas are gonna be things that we’re not doing. That being said, I would say that some people have accurately predicted certain things, and then, with respect to some of the characters in “Crisis,” their guesses are way off the mark, and I like that. Also, one thing that we’re trying to do in the crossover is that, even the things that you are expecting, we’ve challenged ourselves and said, how do we do it in ways that you’re not expecting? There are different kinds of spoilers, in my opinion. There’s what you do, which is the spoiler everyone thinks about, but then there is the how and when you do it, and you have those clubs in your bag.
*  *  *
Which is fun because, with anything adapted from source material, you want to have that joy of the source material, but not have it feel like an exact replica of that.
GUGGENHEIM: Yes. That’s the thing. Obviously, it’s a different animal, from the source material. That said, when we pitched the crossover story to the network and the studio, we basically pitched with several covers from the comic book series. We had one cover for each hour, so we had five covers. It’s a 12-part series, but we said, “This is gonna happen in this episode, this is gonna happen in this episode, and this is gonna happen in this episode.” We’re being faithful enough to the source material that you can point to these seminal moments that ended up on the covers. The only surprise is the way we do it. Obviously, these are completely different characters and different circumstances, but we are acknowledging enough of the source material to be able to point to different moments in the crossover and go, “That came from the comic, and that came from the comic, and that came from the comic,” and that’s fun.

When it comes to the endpoint of what Arrow will end up being and how it eventually says goodbye, is it anything like what you thought it might be, or is it very different from how you imagined it?
GUGGENHEIM: That’s a great question. I would say, for the most part, it’s very similar to what I always had in mind. There have been some new ideas and some tweaks, and the crossover changed certain elements, but I would say that Stephen and I, for years, have talked about how things should end, and I would say that we’re definitely true to the spirit of that plan.

SCHWARTZ: I don’t know what people are thinking this series is gonna end up like. The hope is to end it very true to our show and have a satisfying ending for those fans who’ve been following, from the very beginning. That’s our hope, and we’ll see how it goes. I’m such a fan of television, and I have been, my whole life. I’ve watched so much television, so if I feel like this is hitting all of the points and I feel satisfied, that’s usually how a fan will react. Hopefully, we’ll be on the same page.

Edited October 19, 2019 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Arrow’s Connor Hawke actor hints he’ll appear in planned Canaries spin-off
Morgan Jeffery   October 18, 2019
https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-10-18/arrow-spin-off-connor-hawke/

Quote

Arrow might be ending after its eighth season, but a female-led spin-off is already in the works, with Katherine McNamara (Mia Smoak), Katie Cassidy (Laurel Lance) and Juliana Harkavy (Dinah Drake) all set to reprise their roles.

The new series will be set in the future timeline established in Arrow’s flash-forwards… and another character who’s prominent in these scenes is Connor Hawke (Joseph David-Jones). Though yet to be confirmed for the spin-off, could David-Jones also appear?

“Mmm-hmm, there is a chance!” the actor told RadioTimes.com. “We’ll see. I can’t give away anything!”
*  *  *
He added: “I think they wanna find a story that makes sense to tell after Arrow, because it’s something that was so near and dear to all of the fans and it was something that was sort of unprecedented at the time it came out, so]they don’t wanna just make something that is gonna not do justice to the Arrow legacy…

“They’re keeping everything close to the chest like they always do. but I think it’s gonna be a fun show show. I’m interested to see where things go with the spin-off.”

David-Jones also told us that Arrow’s final episodes will feature “a lot of callbacks” to previous seasons. “They’re trying to bring about a cathartic end to this entire series and this man’s journey, so you’re going to see a lot of people from his past we’ve brought back in, you’re going to see a lot of moments revisited from earlier seasons and I think fans are gonna love it,” he said.

The star also revealed that his character was originally supposed to become a series regular on fellow Arrowverse series Legends of Tomorrow, before plans changed and he joined the Arrow cast instead.

Edited October 19, 2019 by tv echo

[scarynikki12]

I have a theory for the backdoor pilot that I'm going to spoiler tag since it includes Crisis comic info:

Spoiler

One of the changes that happens as a result of Crisis in the comics is that only some of the characters remember the original timeline. We've commented recently on the fact that Cassidy and various producers/writers/behind the scenes people don't seem to know which version of Laurel she's actually playing so what if they actually end up using Crisis to bring back Laurel? Not a real resurrection but maybe Siren's specific result is that she genuinely believes she's the Laurel Lance of Earth Prime and her own backstory gets merged with Laurel's? That would allow them to pick and choose the parts of each character the like, make those canon, and then throw out the rest. Then we could end up with the goody two shoes Laurel was supposed to be but with the powers of Black Siren and no more of the contradicting backstory.

[tv echo]

[tv echo]

[apinknightmare]

17 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I have a theory for the backdoor pilot that I'm going to spoiler tag since it includes Crisis comic info:

  Reveal spoiler

One of the changes that happens as a result of Crisis in the comics is that only some of the characters remember the original timeline. We've commented recently on the fact that Cassidy and various producers/writers/behind the scenes people don't seem to know which version of Laurel she's actually playing so what if they actually end up using Crisis to bring back Laurel? Not a real resurrection but maybe Siren's specific result is that she genuinely believes she's the Laurel Lance of Earth Prime and her own backstory gets merged with Laurel's? That would allow them to pick and choose the parts of each character the like, make those canon, and then throw out the rest. Then we could end up with the goody two shoes Laurel was supposed to be but with the powers of Black Siren and no more of the contradicting backstory.

Every Canary on this show seems to be interchangeable, so why not?

Spoiler

She's already managed to successfully fake being E-1 Laurel, might as well make it official, LOL.

[Featherhat]

None of them seem to have much info, which is strange considering they'd have to have been pitched the show by the producers. I wonder if JDJ actually knows 

I think it's possible that happens to Laurel but they've been on and off about "who am I again?" since early S7 I think it's partly because of the lazy take over of E1's life and KC's determination for her original storyline.

It's also possible this also happens to Mia in some form because even if it's set in the future I think the current 2040 is going to go very wonky, though I hope she remembers her parents especially if they haven't got EBR back and she's spending a lot of the crossover with Oliver before his sacrifice. 

[Velocity23]

I think its just basically a future spinoff with the Canaries sprinkled in.  But it doesnt sound like they went with KCs pitch. 

https://www.hypable.com/katie-cassidy-arrow-season-8/

Edited October 19, 2019 by Velocity23