S02.E07: Lie to Me

[Lisin]

Out patrolling, Buffy spies Angel with a demonstrative Drusilla, then catches him in a lie later. Billy "Ford" Fordham, Buffy's long-time LA school chum, transfers to Sunnydale High, but nobody suspects he is negotiating a deal with Spike—and offering the Slayer as trade goods. Angel discreetly enlists Willow's help.

 

I really enjoy this episode. I almost think it's better now even than it was back in 1997 when it aired because we have even more of the vampire love going on these days. It's funny when it needs to be and touching when it needs to be as well. I love Buffy and Giles at the end, so sweet. We also find out about Angel siring Dru and all that he did to torture her, we're starting to learn that soulless Angel is no fun. (Or loads of fun if you're into that sort of thing). 

[Loandbehold]

I believe this is the episode that upped the series to the next level. It has two great speeches. Many talk about Giles' to Buffy in the graveyard at the end, but I also like Buffy's to Ford in the Vampires Yay! club. Ford has his reasons for wanting to be a vampire and lays them out for Buffy. She feels bad, but also recognizes that what he's doing is wrong, even before she figures out that the other kids aren't the prize - she is. Ford is really the first gray human who becomes a villain.

 

Another scene I really liked was Angel and Buffy in Buffy's house. There really is so much good in this episode.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I prefer Buffy's speech to Ford myself to the much more often quoted speech by Giles in the end. It sounds liek a mission statement for the series (before the series itself went to hell, that is):

 

Buffy:  You have a choice. You don't have a good choice, but you have a choice! You're opting for mass murder here, and nothing you say is gonna make that okay!

Ford:  You think I need to justify myself to you?

Buffy:  I think this is all part of your little fantasy drama! Isn't this exactly how you imagined it? You tell me how you've suffered and I feel sorry for you. Well, I do feel sorry for you, and if those vampires come in here and start feeding, I'll kill you myself!

 

But I don't think this is the episode that brought the series to the next level. For my money Prophecy Girl is a lot better and one of the top 5 episodes of the entire series.

[ParadoxLost]

I may need to go watch this again.  I recall being horribly disappointed that they didn't create a TV version of Pike to compete with Angel for Buffy if they were going to bring someone on from Buffy's past.  Now that I think about it, they couldn't really have Pike and Spike on the same show because of the rhyming.

[Dianthus]

Spike is Pike, IMO. A motorcycle riding Bad-Boy.

 

Everyone lies in this ep - Ford, Angel, Buffy, Jenny - except Spike. Guilt-free, shameless, unconcerned with being polite, with nothing to fear (except one girl), Spike is honest because he has no reason not to be. When it comes to lying, he lacks the motivation of the ensouled. So why make the effort? Why subject himself to the tangled webs?

Angel and Xander don't like Ford on first meeting, but they maintain a social politeness. Spike simply tells him: "I can't stand you."

 

Buffy forces Spike down, down, down, farther into the basement. Beneath her. Spike tells Ford, "We're stuck in the basement...she's not stuck in the basement."

 

Give it time, Spike, give it time. You'll get out of the basement eventually.

 

In the meantime, Spike keeps his promise to Ford, even tho' he doesn't like him and Buffy escaped.

 

It all leaves Buffy very confused.

 

Buffy (to Giles): "Nothing's ever simple anymore. I'm constantly trying to work it out. Who to love or hate. Who to trust. It's just, like, the more I know, the more confused I get."

Giles (in response): "I believe that's called growing up."

[DAngelus]

Brilliantly written ("nest of tumors liquefying in my brain") and strongly acted.  I too prefer the Buffy/Ford confrontation scene to the graveyard "Lie" (abused by the "grey morality" crowd as badly as the "I Wanna Save the World" speech was by the Redemptionistas [He doesn't! Watch the rest of the ep, ffs!]), but it is funny to think of Ford going to All This Trouble to get his "immortality"…and then getting staked two whole seconds after rising. Heh.

 

First Buffy/English Guy naughtiness of the series.  Unfortunately for Dianthus, it's Giles getting a grab of Buffy's butt when Julia (the female vampire) bursts in, but hey, at least Buffy didn't make him go to freaking monster trucks, so who can blame Rupert?  (And I personally think the whole date is utter cuteness, of course.  I'm also glad of Jenny/Buffy interaction, which is one of those pairings where I really wish they'd had more conversations.  Fascinating dyad, IMO.)

 

Comment that's not mine, but which I never get tired of quoting:  "Aww, Giles thinks Ford is cute!"

 

Spike's not that guilt-free, IMO;  if he didn't feel responsible for Dru's injuries in Prague, would she be able to play him like a fiddle the way she does in this episode?  I love how she covers for her getting caught out with Angel by fake-obsessing about the bird, getting Spike mad enough to blow up at her and then cry her way out of the whole subject.  Sometimes, I swear, I think Dru is just faking the whole "crazy" bit and Spike's too thick to get it.

 

Brilliant foreshadowing, completely intended:

 

ANGEL:  Dru, take Spike and leave here, now.  If you don't, it will end badly, for all of us.  (emphasis mine)

 

Hell to the yeah, Brood Boy.  Enjoy the burning.  (Further gloating omitted, because thinking about all the dead people gets me sad.)

 

Brilliant foreshadowing, completely UN-intended:

 

BUFFY (wrt "over-caffeinated" Willow):  There aren't two of her in the world.

 

Heh, just wait for next season, Buff.  (And an "aww" at the line, from my Buffy/Willow 'shipper heart.)

 

The List of Liars should also include Julia, despite her never actually speaking in the episode.  When Ford comes to the factory and Spike asks him how he found the place, there's supposed to be a reaction shot of a worried Julia (since, after all, finking on the hideout is never good form, imminent threat of staking or not) before Ford brushes this issue aside with "that doesn't matter".  Director Joss apparently decided that this broke the flow (and Julia, again, has a whopping zero lines, so who really cares?), but it does reinforce the theme some more.

 

Also cut from the shooting script were most of Cordelia's lines, which mainly consisted of her bitching about how lucky Buffy was to have Ford be Yet Another Buffy-Obsessed Boy and Buffy being IMO unnecessarily mean about Cordy in a conversation with Ford.  Probably a very good idea;  Joss realized he had written character-destructive crap, got out the blue pen, paid Charisma for her easy week and moved on.  (And he does better by CC the next time he gets a screen credit, in Ted, so I think he realized the problem.  Unless the better treatment of Cordy there was all Greenwalt's work.)

 

The cut parts of the original episode (the Buffy/Angel non-blood drinks lines at the Bronze; Willow's "I mean, the dark can get pretty dark.  Sometimes you need a story.") were on YouTube, years and years ago.  I'm still annoyed I didn't have the capacity to download from YT back then.  And I understand about the music-rights issues involved, but it feels wrong that this is changed from the original airing.  Guess I should have started taping back in S2, huh?

 

Finally, as much as I like the episode and the Act 4 confrontation, this episode does sadly mark the beginning of a negative trend. It is the first episode where all of B/W/X/G are not present at the climax, where for all 18 previous episodes they'd either been by Buffy's side or (as in OOM, OOS) engaged in key action elsewhere.  Here, it's just Buffy, and within a year, key Scoobies will routinely be vanishing for half an episode or so (Cordy even meta-commentates on her and Xander's absence in the tag for Beauty and the Beasts) and this just paves the way for that "The Slayer is always alone" crap so beloved by Late Season Joss.  (I guess he forgot "A Slayer with family and friends.  That sure as Hell wasn't in the brochure", huh?  More's the pity.)  Good for the episode, bad for the series, IMO. And so not as high on my list as it otherwise would be.

Edited June 21, 2014 by DAngelus

[wingster55]

I am quite fond of the Willow-Angel scene in her house..those two (to me) had a bit of a friendship that was seen here and there on the show. 

[Jazzy24]

I am quite fond of the Willow-Angel scene in her house..those two (to me) had a bit of a friendship that was seen here and there on the show.

I loved Willow/Angel they were so friendly and I think after she restored his soul their bond deepened.

[Ubiquitous]

When Ford revealed his plan to Buffy, she told him that in effect your soul is destroyed and is replaced by a demon that has access to all your memories. So how do you explain Angel, or was she lieing in an attempt to dissuade Ford from "going over"?

Edited July 24, 2015 by Ubiquitous

[romantic idiot]

Err, I don't get this point. I assumed once Liam's soul came back Angelus was superseded which is why Angel was different from Liam.

[Dev F]

Well, the question Angel raises is, "If demon you is a metaphysically different person from human you, why does a re-ensouled Angel hold himself responsible for demon Angelus's crimes?" But it's a question that can be answered a couple of ways, I think:

 

1. When Angel was cursed, his human soul didn't replace his demonic soul; it superimposed it. Angel possesses an aggregate consciousness that's as much Angelus as Angelus was, just with another bit mixed in. So it sort of makes sense that he would still be responsible for the actions of an entity that he still contains.

 

2. Even if that were no longer the case (say, if Angel became human again), he'd still remember being Angelus, taking pleasure in torture and murder and whatnot. So despite the fact that he couldn't be considered responsible from a metaphysical perspective, from a practical perspective he'd still need to own those feelings in order to keep them from leading him astray.

[Bitterswete]

On 7/24/2015 at 12:56 PM, Ubiquitous said:

When Ford revealed his plan to Buffy, she told him that in effect your soul is destroyed and is replaced by a demon that has access to all your memories. So how do you explain Angel, or was she lieing in an attempt to dissuade Ford from "going over"?

 

I don't really consider Buffy the big authority on vampires. It's not like she made a point of really studying up on all there was to know about them. I don't even think the Watchers knew as much as they liked to think they did. So I tend to take what Buffy says about this stuff with a grain of salt.

 

On 7/29/2015 at 2:31 PM, Dev F said:

Well, the question Angel raises is, "If demon you is a metaphysically different person from human you, why does a re-ensouled Angel hold himself responsible for demon Angelus's crimes?" But it's a question that can be answered a couple of ways, I think:

 

1. When Angel was cursed, his human soul didn't replace his demonic soul; it superimposed it. Angel possesses an aggregate consciousness that's as much Angelus as Angelus was, just with another bit mixed in. So it sort of makes sense that he would still be responsible for the actions of an entity that he still contains.

 

2. Even if that were no longer the case (say, if Angel became human again), he'd still remember being Angelus, taking pleasure in torture and murder and whatnot. So despite the fact that he couldn't be considered responsible from a metaphysical perspective, from a practical perspective he'd still need to own those feelings in order to keep them from leading him astray.

 

Not to get into my theories on souls, and how much of the person is still left when the soul is gone, but vampires seem to be completely informed by the kind of person they were as a human. So there were vampires who, because of what they were like as humans, were incapable of being "Scourge of Europe" level bad.

Spoiler

Harmony, for example. She was a ditz as a human and a ditz as a vampire.

 

So I don't think Angelus could've been as bad as he was unless Liam was capable of it to some degree. And I think that's a big part of what Angel felt guilty about.

[buffynut]

The cut parts of the original episode (the Buffy/Angel non-blood drinks lines at the Bronze; Willow's "I mean, the dark can get pretty dark.  Sometimes you need a story.") were on YouTube, years and years ago.  I'm still annoyed I didn't have the capacity to download from YT back then.  And I understand about the music-rights issues involved, but it feels wrong that this is changed from the original airing.  Guess I should have started taping back in S2, huh?

 

All that is missing on the DVD release?  I always liked Willows non blood drink line.

 

I started taping off YTV (Canada) during season 1 repeats, so I have all the seasons on VHS tape. Haven't watched them in years.  Wonder if they are still playable?  Might have to dust of the old VCR and check it out.

 

BTW, think this is my first post on the Buffy boards here at Previously.  I didn't post a lot, but I found my way here after TWOP shut down.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

So I don't think Angelus could've been as bad as he was unless Liam was capable of it to some degree. And I think that's a big part of what Angel felt guilty about.

 

Except Human!Liam didn't seem to be all that bad. A drunken wastrel and a layabout who probably would have died of syphilis before he was thirty, sure, but that's a far cry from being a mass murderer who killed, according to Angel himself, with a song in his heart. If nothing else, Liam seemed too damned lazy to do more than sit around on his whiskey-soaked butt. He may very well have hated his father, but without Darla's intervention, he'd have lived out his life and died young. YMMV.

[Bitterswete]

Except Human!Liam didn't seem to be all that bad. A drunken wastrel and a layabout who probably would have died of syphilis before he was thirty, sure, but that's a far cry from being a mass murderer who killed, according to Angel himself, with a song in his heart.

 

As a human, no. But imagine what most people would be like if you took their conscience away and threw in a heavy dose of bloodthirstiness. But they still have the same thoughts, memories and issues.

 

If nothing else, Liam seemed too damned lazy to do more than sit around on his whiskey-soaked butt. He may very well have hated his father, but without Darla's intervention, he'd have lived out his life and died young.

 

I saw Liam as someone who'd been put down and told he was nothing for so long that he believed it. He didn't think he could amount to anything, so why bother trying? Instead, he self-medicated (sleeping around, drinking, getting into fights, etc.), and even a lot of that seemed to be about having something to rub in his dad's face.

 

The fact that he wasn't trying to make anything of himself didn't mean he wasn't capable of it. Just that he felt powerless to do so.

 

But once he was turned, he suddenly did have power, and also didn't feel like nothing anymore. (Not on the surface anyway.) So he was free (for lack of a better word) to act on the potential he always had. But, as a vampire, he did it in evil ways.

 

I also think part of the reason Angelus was so bad was a desire to make a name for himself, and really prove that he wasn't nothing like his dad always said he was.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 8/1/2015 at 10:44 AM, Bitterswete said:

As a human, no. But imagine what most people would be like if you took their conscience away and threw in a heavy dose of bloodthirstiness. But they still have the same thoughts, memories and issues.

 

Except you're kind of making my point for me, because Liam did have a conscience. A selective one, most likely, but there's still a big gap between, say, stealing money from his father or portions of the family silver to pay for his drinking binges and slaughtering the entire household. Without his conscience, without his soul, he was free of the moral constraints against murder, and while the issues from his human life may have fueled his actions as a vampire, I don't think he'd have ever acted on them. Being capable of terrible things isn't the same thing as doing those terrible things.

 

Spoiler

Conversely, Human!William was a mama's boy and probably a bit of a coward, unlike Liam, who drank and brawled and screwed, but when he became a vampire, the end result was the same. He was suddenly conscience-free, able to strike out against the people who thought they were better than he was, and so he did. But without that happening, IMO he would have lived an unremarkable life, not to mention have his lousy poetry go unpublished.

[Bitterswete]

Except you're kind of making my point for me, because Liam did have a conscience. A selective one, most likely, but there's still a big gap between, say, stealing money from his father or portions of the family silver to pay for his drinking binges and slaughtering the entire household. Without his conscience, without his soul, he was free of the moral constraints against murder, and while the issues from his human life may have fueled his actions as a vampire, I don't think he'd have ever acted on them. Being capable of terrible things isn't the same thing as doing those terrible things.

 

I agree with you that of course human Liam would never have acted on the hard feelings he had towards his father. But the question was about why Angel would feel guilty about stuff he did when he didn't have a soul, and I think a lot of the guilt came from the fact that a lot of Angelus's action were driven by Liam's feelings and issues. Whether or not Angel should feel guilty about Angelus's actions is another story. But guilt isn't always rational. 

 

Conversely, Human!William was a mama's boy and probably a bit of a coward, unlike Liam, who drank and brawled and screwed, but when he became a vampire, the end result was the same.

 

Well, similar. (They went about things in different ways.) But we saw that not all vamps became "over achievers" like Angel, Spike, Darla, etc. Some vamps were downright slackers. Give them a TV, a place to crash, and easy access to victims (like people walking home at night or something) and they were happy. Others just wanted to live their lives in peace (and quietly take victims without anyone noticing). Making names for themselves as "Big Bads" didn't seem to matter to them.

 

Someone on the other board once commented that it seemed like the vampires who really seemed to want to make names for themselves were the ones who felt the most put down and powerless as humans. And, while that might not have applied in every case, there did seem to be a pattern.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Chaos Theory]

My take is a simple one. Liam hated his father. The way I understood the vampire process of the show (which was kinda hinted at once or twice) the vampire was the darkest part of what you were capable of being. The very very worst cases. I think when Liam became Angeles he was all about proving something to his father. The angry teenager acting out of rage. When he became Angel the guilt.set in.

Yes if Luam had never became a vampire his anger and hate for his father would have manifested the way it does for many in an alcoholic haze. But that is what evil does to anger it aims it somewhere and then let's it fly....,

[Bitterswete]

The way I understood the vampire process of the show (which was kinda hinted at once or twice) the vampire was the darkest part of what you were capable of being.

 

You just managed to sum up something I've tried to explain more times than I can count, but I never managed to do it as clearly as you just did it.

 

Speaking of the episode, what I love most about it is that it introduces Chanterelle. And, from this episode, you'd never guess that she'd show up again, let alone how. And I ended up really liking her character.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 6/16/2014 at 2:07 PM, Loandbehold said:

I believe this is the episode that upped the series to the next level. It has two great speeches. Many talk about Giles' to Buffy in the graveyard at the end, but I also like Buffy's to Ford in the Vampires Yay! club. Ford has his reasons for wanting to be a vampire and lays them out for Buffy. She feels bad, but also recognizes that what he's doing is wrong, even before she figures out that the other kids aren't the prize - she is. Ford is really the first gray human who becomes a villain.

 

Another scene I really liked was Angel and Buffy in Buffy's house. There really is so much good in this episode.

Which scene specifically?

On 6/16/2014 at 4:37 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

I prefer Buffy's speech to Ford myself to the much more often quoted speech by Giles in the end. It sounds liek a mission statement for the series (before the series itself went to hell, that is):

 

Buffy:  You have a choice. You don't have a good choice, but you have a choice! You're opting for mass murder here, and nothing you say is gonna make that okay!

Ford:  You think I need to justify myself to you?

Buffy:  I think this is all part of your little fantasy drama! Isn't this exactly how you imagined it? You tell me how you've suffered and I feel sorry for you. Well, I do feel sorry for you, and if those vampires come in here and start feeding, I'll kill you myself!

 

But I don't think this is the episode that brought the series to the next level. For my money Prophecy Girl is a lot better and one of the top 5 episodes of the entire series.

So true, we night sympathize with Ford more if he didn't take such delight in his deviousness. 

 

On 6/16/2014 at 7:21 PM, ParadoxLost said:

I may need to go watch this again.  I recall being horribly disappointed that they didn't create a TV version of Pike to compete with Angel for Buffy if they were going to bring someone on from Buffy's past.  Now that I think about it, they couldn't really have Pike and Spike on the same show because of the rhyming.

I always thought that Oz had some elements of Pike about him although there never seemed to be any attraction between him and Buffy, not even in any fanfic I've read. I would like to have seen Pike cameo or even be mentioned in the series, he does return in the comics.

On 6/18/2014 at 6:29 PM, Dianthus said:

Spike is Pike, IMO. A motorcycle riding Bad-Boy.

 

Everyone lies in this ep - Ford, Angel, Buffy, Jenny - except Spike. Guilt-free, shameless, unconcerned with being polite, with nothing to fear (except one girl), Spike is honest because he has no reason not to be. When it comes to lying, he lacks the motivation of the ensouled. So why make the effort? Why subject himself to the tangled webs?

Angel and Xander don't like Ford on first meeting, but they maintain a social politeness. Spike simply tells him: "I can't stand you."

 

Buffy forces Spike down, down, down, farther into the basement. Beneath her. Spike tells Ford, "We're stuck in the basement...she's not stuck in the basement."

 

Give it time, Spike, give it time. You'll get out of the basement eventually.

 

In the meantime, Spike keeps his promise to Ford, even tho' he doesn't like him and Buffy escaped.

 

It all leaves Buffy very confused.

 

Buffy (to Giles): "Nothing's ever simple anymore. I'm constantly trying to work it out. Who to love or hate. Who to trust. It's just, like, the more I know, the more confused I get."

Giles (in response): "I believe that's called growing up."

Interesting, Spike seems to be a very human vamp in many ways. 

On 8/1/2015 at 1:59 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

 

Except you're kind of making my point for me, because Liam did have a conscience. A selective one, most likely, but there's still a big gap between, say, stealing money from his father or portions of the family silver to pay for his drinking binges and slaughtering the entire household. Without his conscience, without his soul, he was free of the moral constraints against murder, and while the issues from his human life may have fueled his actions as a vampire, I don't think he'd have ever acted on them. Being capable of terrible things isn't the same thing as doing those terrible things.

 

Spoiler

Conversely, Human!William was a mama's boy and probably a bit of a coward, unlike Liam, who drank and brawled and screwed, but when he became a vampire, the end result was the same. He was suddenly conscience-free, able to strike out against the people who thought they were better than he was, and so he did. But without that happening, IMO he would have lived an unremarkable life, not to mention have his lousy poetry go unpublished.

 

My theory was that because Spike was sired by Dru he is different due to her link to the PTBs

Lie to Me;

The Good; The central story is very strong and it makes great fun of all the vampfans out there (Twilight lovers I'm talking to you ). The scene with Dru and the kid in the playground is scary as hell . First appearance of Chantrelle/Lily/Anne and she's great. Angel in the vamp club is hilarious. Ingenious the way Buffy defeats Spike and co, once again you see that this girl has brains and guile and not just looks and brawn. Adore the Angel/Will scene, her hiding her undies and telling him she's not allowed boys in her room. Willow finally realising what the Divinyls song 'I touch myself' is really about (you know if that had been sung by a guy they'd have never played it on the radio). Willow still in her 'startled virgin' phase which they play for laughs

Spoiler

and will eventually be taken over by Dawn as Will grows more and more worldly.

The Divinyls also provide music for the Buffy movie. Lovely scene between Giles and Buffy at the end.

The Bad; Not much, strong ep

Best line; Giles; "I believe that's called 'Growing up" Buffy; "Then I'd like to stop now, OK?" but also Willow (about Angel) "Ours is a forbidden love" Xander (after Chantrelle describes vamps as 'the lonely ones') "Actually we call them the nasty, pointy, bitey ones" and Giles' wonderful speech at the end.

Questions and observations; Cordy identifies with Marie-Antoinette.

Spoiler

One day she too will be a Queen with people having their heads cut off 'Over the Rainbow'.

Ford likes Jack Palance as Dracula which is also the version Angel recommends (you wonder did he ever meet the real thing? He was certainly in Romania) Don't bother looking for Ford in the Buffy movie, I assure you he's not even mentioned. Jason Bher (Ford) will work with SMG again in The Grudge. We get the story of Angelus and Drusilla for the first time, explaining why Angel was reluctant to talk it over with the Scoobies. Ford is SUCH a scumbag. OK, you're dying but that doesn't mean you kill dozens of other people to enable you to 'live'. His scheme also seems unnecessarily elaborate, why not just catch a vamp, chain it up in the open and tell it either to sire you and you'll release it or it'll be dead by sun-up? Buffy entered a beauty contest at Hemery (check out 'I know what you did last summer' for SMG in a swimsuit pageant). Giles and Jenny have their second date at a monster truck rally which I think would have been a great episode in itself. Spike keeps his word and sires Ford, as with his love of Dru he seems a very atypical vampire.

Great stuff 8/10

[Loandbehold]

8 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

On 6/16/2014 at 2:07 PM, Loandbehold said:

Another scene I really liked was Angel and Buffy in Buffy's house. There really is so much good in this episode.

Which scene specifically?

This bit of dialog:

Buffy: I'm talking about the people I trust. Who's Drusilla?

Angel lowers his eyes, seeing he's been caught in a lie.

Buffy: And don't lie to me. I'm tired of it.

Angel: Some lies are necessary.

Buffy: For what?

Angel: Sometimes the truth is worse. You live long enough, you find that out.

Buffy: I can take it. I can take the truth.

Angel: Do you love me?

Buffy: What?

Angel: Do you?

She takes a moment to consider her answer.

Buffy: I love you. I don't know if I trust you.

Angel: Maybe you shouldn't do either. (turns away)

Buffy: Maybe I'm the one who should decide!

Angel: I did a lot of unconscionable things when I became a vampire. (turns back, but doesn't make eye contact) Drusilla was the worst. She was... an obsession of mine. She was pure and sweet and chaste...
Buffy: And you made her a vampire.

Angel: First I made her insane. (looks at her) Killed everybody she loved. Visited every mental torture on her I could devise. (Buffy looks away) She eventually fled to a convent, and on the day she took her holy orders, I turned her into a demon.

Buffy: Well. I asked for the truth.

[Joe Hellandback]

4 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

This bit of dialog:

Buffy: I'm talking about the people I trust. Who's Drusilla?

Angel lowers his eyes, seeing he's been caught in a lie.

Buffy: And don't lie to me. I'm tired of it.

Angel: Some lies are necessary.

Buffy: For what?

Angel: Sometimes the truth is worse. You live long enough, you find that out.

Buffy: I can take it. I can take the truth.

Angel: Do you love me?

Buffy: What?

Angel: Do you?

She takes a moment to consider her answer.

Buffy: I love you. I don't know if I trust you.

Angel: Maybe you shouldn't do either. (turns away)

Buffy: Maybe I'm the one who should decide!

Angel: I did a lot of unconscionable things when I became a vampire. (turns back, but doesn't make eye contact) Drusilla was the worst. She was... an obsession of mine. She was pure and sweet and chaste...
Buffy: And you made her a vampire.

Angel: First I made her insane. (looks at her) Killed everybody she loved. Visited every mental torture on her I could devise. (Buffy looks away) She eventually fled to a convent, and on the day she took her holy orders, I turned her into a demon.

Buffy: Well. I asked for the truth.

Yes, that's a good one, adds greater gravitas to the ep title. 

[secnarf]

16 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Which scene specifically?

So true, we night sympathize with Ford more if he didn't take such delight in his deviousness. 

 

I always thought that Oz had some elements of Pike about him although there never seemed to be any attraction between him and Buffy, not even in any fanfic I've read. I would like to have seen Pike cameo or even be mentioned in the series, he does return in the comics.

Interesting, Spike seems to be a very human vamp in many ways. 

My theory was that because Spike was sired by Dru he is different due to her link to the PTBs

Lie to Me;

The Good; The central story is very strong and it makes great fun of all the vampfans out there (Twilight lovers I'm talking to you ). The scene with Dru and the kid in the playground is scary as hell . First appearance of Chantrelle/Lily/Anne and she's great. Angel in the vamp club is hilarious. Ingenious the way Buffy defeats Spike and co, once again you see that this girl has brains and guile and not just looks and brawn. Adore the Angel/Will scene, her hiding her undies and telling him she's not allowed boys in her room. Willow finally realising what the Divinyls song 'I touch myself' is really about (you know if that had been sung by a guy they'd have never played it on the radio). Willow still in her 'startled virgin' phase which they play for laughs

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and will eventually be taken over by Dawn as Will grows more and more worldly.

The Divinyls also provide music for the Buffy movie. Lovely scene between Giles and Buffy at the end.

The Bad; Not much, strong ep

Best line; Giles; "I believe that's called 'Growing up" Buffy; "Then I'd like to stop now, OK?" but also Willow (about Angel) "Ours is a forbidden love" Xander (after Chantrelle describes vamps as 'the lonely ones') "Actually we call them the nasty, pointy, bitey ones" and Giles' wonderful speech at the end.

Questions and observations; Cordy identifies with Marie-Antoinette.

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One day she too will be a Queen with people having their heads cut off 'Over the Rainbow'.

Ford likes Jack Palance as Dracula which is also the version Angel recommends (you wonder did he ever meet the real thing? He was certainly in Romania) Don't bother looking for Ford in the Buffy movie, I assure you he's not even mentioned. Jason Bher (Ford) will work with SMG again in The Grudge. We get the story of Angelus and Drusilla for the first time, explaining why Angel was reluctant to talk it over with the Scoobies. Ford is SUCH a scumbag. OK, you're dying but that doesn't mean you kill dozens of other people to enable you to 'live'. His scheme also seems unnecessarily elaborate, why not just catch a vamp, chain it up in the open and tell it either to sire you and you'll release it or it'll be dead by sun-up? Buffy entered a beauty contest at Hemery (check out 'I know what you did last summer' for SMG in a swimsuit pageant). Giles and Jenny have their second date at a monster truck rally which I think would have been a great episode in itself. Spike keeps his word and sires Ford, as with his love of Dru he seems a very atypical vampire.

Great stuff 8/10

I was always under the impression it can take a few days for a new vampire to wake up. This is why Buffy spends so much time in cemeteries. There is a lag between the actual death/siring and the awakening, during which time the person is buried.

Of course, I agree with your general point that there are less destructive ways of becoming a vampire.

[Halting Hex]

17 minutes ago, secnarf said:

I was always under the impression it can take a few days for a new vampire to wake up. This is why Buffy spends so much time in cemeteries. There is a lag between the actual death/siring and the awakening, during which time the person is buried.

One timeline I saw theorized that the events of The Dark Age take place between the main action here and Ford's rising in the tag.  I suppose we could check Buffy for neck tattoos, but…

[Joe Hellandback]

On 6/14/2018 at 9:04 PM, secnarf said:

I was always under the impression it can take a few days for a new vampire to wake up. This is why Buffy spends so much time in cemeteries. There is a lag between the actual death/siring and the awakening, during which time the person is buried.

Of course, I agree with your general point that there are less destructive ways of becoming a vampire.

My theory was it depends how much blood was taken from them,

Spoiler

look at the Watcher Kralik sired in 'Helpless'?

[Halting Hex]

Perhaps it's about being in close physical proximity to the sire?  Vamp!Jesse rises quickly enough in The Harvest, what with being right nearby The Master.  And Anointed Colin doesn't seem to take much time to rise in Never Kill, etc. presumably because whoever bit him is busy ferrying him over to Vamp Central while Andrew "Pork and Beans" Borba is serving as a convenient distraction at the funeral home.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 5:27 PM, Halting Hex said:

Perhaps it's about being in close physical proximity to the sire?  Vamp!Jesse rises quickly enough in The Harvest, what with being right nearby The Master.  And Anointed Colin doesn't seem to take much time to rise in Never Kill, etc. presumably because whoever bit him is busy ferrying him over to Vamp Central while Andrew "Pork and Beans" Borba is serving as a convenient distraction at the funeral home.

And the corpse that attacks 

Spoiler

Dawn at the morgue has had its' autopsy performed? Yet others are buried in their coffins?

 

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 8:26 PM, nosleepforme said:

Or the easy answer there is vampires rise as quickly as the plot needs them to.

I think you hit the nail on the head. 

[Joe Hellandback]

3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I really love that scene as well. I just rewatched the episode and I thought it was such a well-acted, well-written, understated scene. 

 

What I find interesting about it though is that part of it is shot from outside the Summers house as if somebody is watching them, yet there is nobody. It's an interesting choice, but I found it really unusual to have this outside perspective. The show never really does that again.

 

The Ford/Buffy confrontation scene as well as the scene at the end are also great, this one stands really out for me in particular though.

I always thought it worked well as a metaphor for this ep, technically Angelus gave Dru eternal life but it rams home that this is  a curse not a blessing.

[lembergwatcher]

The opening scene where Dru approaches the boy in the playground is one of my favorite.
Funny how 16-year-old Buffy was a lot more reasonable and knew right from wrong -

Spoiler

unlike her future 20 - 22-year-old self on many occassions...

Also the vampire-worshipping cult is IMO was a pretty good idea and could be explored further time after time (as an example of human tendency to idolize/romanticize pure evil).

Spoiler

And maybe I sound crazy, but I really do like that early incarnation of Angel Investigation.

What still gets me is that a 240-plus-something-year-old ensouled vamp was the lucky guy to see braless (but with heavy makeup on) Willow in the sacred space of her room. Come on, this is so unfair... I mean, he was fortunate enough to bang a Slayer! What did the Deadboy do to deserve all the goodness?..

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 10:59 PM, lembergwatcher said:

The opening scene where Dru approaches the boy in the playground is one of my favorite.
Funny how 16-year-old Buffy was a lot more reasonable and knew right from wrong -

  Hide contents

unlike her future 20 - 22-year-old self on many occassions...

Also the vampire-worshipping cult is IMO was a pretty good idea and could be explored further time after time (as an example of human tendency to idolize/romanticize pure evil).

  Hide contents

And maybe I sound crazy, but I really do like that early incarnation of Angel Investigation.

What still gets me is that a 240-plus-something-year-old ensouled vamp was the lucky guy to see braless (but with heavy makeup on) Willow in the sacred space of her room. Come on, this is so unfair... I mean, he was fortunate enough to bang a Slayer! What did the Deadboy do to deserve all the goodness?..

Life was quite simple for Buffy back then, when she was 20-22 life was very complex indeed. Good point on Angel and his prototype AI. As for lucky well he does take an awful lot of suffering in his time but the PTBs must give him some compensations

Spoiler

Buffy, Cordy, Darla, Eve, The Furies

[lembergwatcher]

I like the ep (not only because of Willow with no bra). What really bothers me is why after Ford revealed he knew who Buffy was, neither Buffy nor Giles asked him "How do you know?" and "Who else knows?" for that matter? In fact Giles' behavior in this regard shocks me to say the least. If things continued to be that way the whole damn town would soon find out about Buffy's calling. Well, maybe except Joyce.

[Halting Hex]

Well, we don't see Buffy and Ford have that conversation, but we do get to see Buffy (on the phone) recapping it with Willow:

Quote

BUFFY: Said he found out right before I got booted from Hemery.

As for Giles, well, he had Jenny on the brain.  The subject only comes up when he's giving Buffy instructions for how to reach him (should she need to) during their "monster trucks" date.  Giles takes a second to ensure that Buffy's not spilling her secret "to impress cute boys" (favorite comment from another site: "Aww, Giles thinks Ford is cute!"), and presumably she gave him all the details later on.  (Or at least planned to; her late night briefing with Giles and Jenny was interrupted by Julia [the vampire] bursting in to steal the book.)

Or as Buffy says:

Quote

BUFFY: Go! Experience this thing called fun. I'll try not to have a crisis.

It does seem to be a little early for Giles to be saying his goodbyes for the day, given that Ford had just greeted Willow by saying "Morning", but perhaps he had a conference or something to attend and didn't have much time for Buffy at school that day.  But it seems as though Giles is still in the loop on this.  JMO.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:11 AM, lembergwatcher said:

I like the ep (not only because of Willow with no bra). What really bothers me is why after Ford revealed he knew who Buffy was, neither Buffy nor Giles asked him "How do you know?" and "Who else knows?" for that matter? In fact Giles' behavior in this regard shocks me to say the least. If things continued to be that way the whole damn town would soon find out about Buffy's calling. Well, maybe except Joyce.

Well, presumably Ford was at the gym and everyone else talked? It's not a big deal, especially if they stay in LA. Buffy's calling does seem to be an open secret in Sunnydale? Look who the 

Spoiler

police go to directly when the deputy mayor is staked?

On ‎17‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 3:39 PM, Halting Hex said:

Well, we don't see Buffy and Ford have that conversation, but we do get to see Buffy (on the phone) recapping it with Willow:

As for Giles, well, he had Jenny on the brain.  The subject only comes up when he's giving Buffy instructions for how to reach him (should she need to) during their "monster trucks" date.  Giles takes a second to ensure that Buffy's not spilling her secret "to impress cute boys" (favorite comment from another site: "Aww, Giles thinks Ford is cute!"), and presumably she gave him all the details later on.  (Or at least planned to; her late night briefing with Giles and Jenny was interrupted by Julia [the vampire] bursting in to steal the book.)

Or as Buffy says:

It does seem to be a little early for Giles to be saying his goodbyes for the day, given that Ford had just greeted Willow by saying "Morning", but perhaps he had a conference or something to attend and didn't have much time for Buffy at school that day.  But it seems as though Giles is still in the loop on this.  JMO.

I rather like the idea of Giles having a life outside being a Watcher

Spoiler

as we see in 'Where the Wild Things Are'

[Halting Hex]

One of my newer video reactors (unknowingly) pointed up a good piece of plot mechanics by Joss.  When we see Buffy and Ford meeting at the school on the final day (with the camera swooping around as Buffy says she'll be at the club at 9.00 when in fact she shows up before 6.00 to get the jump on him, and Ford lying on a far-greater scale as he plans to sacrifice her), Liam (the reactor) said "Well, I guess he's not a vampire yet, or he'd be bursting into flame" (or something like that).

Which, of course, is one of the points of the scene.  (Besides building towards the climax and reinforcing the "everybody lies" theme.)  We'd seen Ford say "you make me a vampire and I give you the Slayer", which almost implies that the "deal" is for the trade to happen in that order. 

Of course, it makes sense that Spike would want to get "paid" before he gives Ford his "reward", not only because Ford might be full of wind, but because it would be more difficult for Ford to use his access to Buffy to entrap her if he was already turned and might set off her vampdar.  (Which has failed her plenty of times, but of course Spike doesn't know that.) Plus, of course, a hypothetical Vamp!Ford might just kill Buffy himself, rather than wait for Spike to show up.

But if we don't see Ford in the sunshine here, we might think he's already been changed and spend the Sunset Club confrontation wondering just when he's going to attack Buffy, fangs out.  Which would distract us from the strongly emotional conversation that Buffy and Ford have, instead.

Well done, Joss.  Now if you'd just go back to writing Cordelia well… 

(Liam had loathed basic bitchy Cordy early on, then softened when she was reaching out to the Scoobs and showing self-awareness and all of that from Out of Mind, Out of Sight through Some Assembly Required.  But it's now been five episodes where CC hasn't exactly been shown in the best light, which is far more of a rut than the character deserves, especially after they'd made such strides with her before.  Improvement is due, IMO.)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎20‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:14 AM, Halting Hex said:

One of my newer video reactors (unknowingly) pointed up a good piece of plot mechanics by Joss.  When we see Buffy and Ford meeting at the school on the final day (with the camera swooping around as Buffy says she'll be at the club at 9.00 when in fact she shows up before 6.00 to get the jump on him, and Ford lying on a far-greater scale as he plans to sacrifice her), Liam (the reactor) said "Well, I guess he's not a vampire yet, or he'd be bursting into flame" (or something like that).

Which, of course, is one of the points of the scene.  (Besides building towards the climax and reinforcing the "everybody lies" theme.)  We'd seen Ford say "you make me a vampire and I give you the Slayer", which almost implies that the "deal" is for the trade to happen in that order. 

Of course, it makes sense that Spike would want to get "paid" before he gives Ford his "reward", not only because Ford might be full of wind, but because it would be more difficult for Ford to use his access to Buffy to entrap her if he was already turned and might set off her vampdar.  (Which has failed her plenty of times, but of course Spike doesn't know that.) Plus, of course, a hypothetical Vamp!Ford might just kill Buffy himself, rather than wait for Spike to show up.

But if we don't see Ford in the sunshine here, we might think he's already been changed and spend the Sunset Club confrontation wondering just when he's going to attack Buffy, fangs out.  Which would distract us from the strongly emotional conversation that Buffy and Ford have, instead.

Well done, Joss.  Now if you'd just go back to writing Cordelia well… 

(Liam had loathed basic bitchy Cordy early on, then softened when she was reaching out to the Scoobs and showing self-awareness and all of that from Out of Mind, Out of Sight through Some Assembly Required.  But it's now been five episodes where CC hasn't exactly been shown in the best light, which is far more of a rut than the character deserves, especially after they'd made such strides with her before.  Improvement is due, IMO.)

Plus of course, Buffy can sense vamps.

[Halting Hex]

Well, in theory, anyway.  We saw in the pilot that she sometimes cheats and just spots them by their clothing.  And sometimes she doesn't believe her vamp-sense, as when Angel convinced her with that "I don't bite" line.  As recently as School Hard, she breezed right past Spike when he was saying "I need to call* 9-1-1" without sensing him as a vampire.

(*-Spike must have been in the States for a while, or he would have said "ring" here, right?)

Still, it's wise for Spike to be cautious.  Probably Drusilla's idea; as we saw in the Ford/Spike/Dru scene before we cut away, Drusilla's the sensible one of that pair, insanity aside.

[Halting Hex]

So, when Angel does "that thing where he's gone" and leaves Willow and Xander at the pool table without so much as a "see ya!" (rude much?)…where does he go, exactly?  He can't go out the front door into the alleyway;  Buffy and Ford have hardly gone so far along, as yet.

Does Angel go back to the bar for more coffee?  Unlikely; Xander spotted him there before, no reason he couldn't see him again.  Upstairs to rock out to the band? Well, we don't see a live act in the episode, and the music rights issues are why the episode was re-cut (I'm still annoyed I didn't know how to download the Buffy-Angel "non-blood drinks" bar scene when it was on YouTube, eons ago), so who knows what's actually playing.

Personally, I like to think Angel had to make a quick pit stop in the Little Vampires' Room (that coffee can really cut through you if you're not used to it), but with the big mirror that's liable to be over the sinks, his chance of slinking out unobserved is lessened.  Best to hold it until he gets home, I'm thinking. (He does live nearby, remember.) Maybe out the back door?  No, that's where the "cats" were fighting…

Also, Ford's damn lucky that he chose Buffy's dining room window to peek through when he spies on Buffy's "I love you; I just don't know if I trust you" convo with Angel.  I mean, they did start that conversation in the kitchen, no guarantee they would move into the dining room, at all.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

Well, that's an interesting question.

But what bothers me is why can't Mr. Selfish Dick aka Angel ask Buffy not to get mad at Xander and Willow after revealing the three of them did a little digging into Ford behind Buffy's back? Because he's the one who got both Slayerettes into this and as an ensouled (and suposedly decent) vampire the Deadboy should know the whole thing can create a rift between Buffy and her two best friends. 

Spoiler

The more I think about some of Angel's actions even before he lost his precious soul, the more Captain Forehead appears as an anti-hero to me.

[Halting Hex]

Quote

DIEGO: What about your friends? Are they comin'?

FORD: What are you talking about?

DIEGO: Your friends. They came. Last night. Two guys and a girl.

CHANTERLILLYANNE: One was mean.

FORD: Oh, Christ! Why didn't you tell me about this?

(roughly one minute later…)

Quote

BUFFY: Yeah, well, I still feel awfully chatty! You were gonna give them me! Tonight!

FORD: (nods) Yes.

BUFFY: You had to know I'd figure it out.

FORD: Actually, I was counting on it. (smiles)

Wait, what?  If Ford knew that Buffy knew about the club (rather than his planning to lure her there when they met at the school at 9.00), then why is he acting so put out to discover that Angel/Willow/Xander were there last night?  If Angel specified that Ford and his "cult" hung out at the Sunset Club when Ford was peeping through Buffy's dining room window late that night (we don't see Angel mention the club by name, but it's fair to assume that he gave Buffy all the relevant details), then why is Ford all "shocked" that the Scoobs had been there already?  Isn't this, as he confirms to Buffy, an essential part of Ford's own plan?

I suppose one could theorize that Ford's just playacting for Diego and Chantarelle's sake here.  But Marvin and Joan (to use their birth names) are as thick as two logs, anyhow, and Ford presumes they'll both be dead in less than an hour from now, so why the subterfuge?  Strange, IMO.  

Also, Jason Behr didn't seem to be feigning when he got the "your friends" news; he seemed genuinely pissed-off.  Is this a plot hole or am i missing something?  Just wondering.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

(roughly one minute later…)

Wait, what?  If Ford knew that Buffy knew about the club (rather than his planning to lure her there when they met at the school at 9.00), then why is he acting so put out to discover that Angel/Willow/Xander were there last night?  If Angel specified that Ford and his "cult" hung out at the Sunset Club when Ford was peeping through Buffy's dining room window late that night (we don't see Angel mention the club by name, but it's fair to assume that he gave Buffy all the relevant details), then why is Ford all "shocked" that the Scoobs had been there already?  Isn't this, as he confirms to Buffy, an essential part of Ford's own plan?

I suppose one could theorize that Ford's just playacting for Diego and Chantarelle's sake here.  But Marvin and Joan (to use their birth names) are as thick as two logs, anyhow, and Ford presumes they'll both be dead in less than an hour from now, so why the subterfuge?  Strange, IMO.  

Also, Jason Behr didn't seem to be feigning when he got the "your friends" news; he seemed genuinely pissed-off.  Is this a plot hole or am i missing something?  Just wondering.

No, I think he was just making it up as he went along, bluffing Buffy that he as cleverer than she was. 

[Loandbehold]

Ford did need Buffy to figure out about the club b/c that was where Spike and Co. would be coming that night. I thought he was upset b/c he wasn't expecting Buffy's friends to show up. He wanted Buffy there alone, not w/ any back-up and he was concerned that now they would come.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎05‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 4:56 PM, Loandbehold said:

Ford did need Buffy to figure out about the club b/c that was where Spike and Co. would be coming that night. I thought he was upset b/c he wasn't expecting Buffy's friends to show up. He wanted Buffy there alone, not w/ any back-up and he was concerned that now they would come.

That's how I read it. 

[Halting Hex]

It's good to see Spike make at least a semi-decent showing, for once.  I mean, he's run away from Joyce and had his plan fall apart because he relied on a swarm of transformed little kids, so at least being blackmailed over Drusilla makes sense.  It's still humiliating that he had to fold, of course, but doing it for his girlfriend is at least understandable.

Of course, if Spike is so gaga for Dru, what must things have been like when she was involved with Angel, his sire?  Might not have been a very happy vampire home, back in the day.  (Fanfic about Spike being gone on Angel aside, as there was a notable lack of enthusiasm in Spike's reaction to finding out Angel's hanging around, after all.)

[lembergwatcher]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:57 PM, Halting Hex said:

Of course, if Spike is so gaga for Dru, what must things have been like when she was involved with Angel, his sire? 

I don't think Spike was happy, but he probably kept his judgement to himself, not wanting to antagonize a stronger Alpha like Angel, his sire.

Spoiler

Then again Spike wasn't too thrilled with Angelus 2.0 after the whole Buffy deflowering thing, as we see in the later eps. The thing is he needed his arch nemesis' help to do something about his rival and Drusilla.

Spike is a poser, after all. He likes to look cool, but he only has some guts when it comes to other less intelligent vamps, losers like the Annoying One or vampire-wannabes like Ford and his lot...

[Halting Hex]

On 12/31/2018 at 6:59 PM, Halting Hex said:

(I'm still annoyed I didn't know how to download the Buffy-Angel "non-blood drinks" bar scene when it was on YouTube, eons ago)

Wait a second, didn't we just get through with Buffy considering the possibility of a coffee date with Angel in 2.05, and didn't we see "Cordelia drooling [Angel's] cappuccino" only last episode? Why is Buffy surprised to learn Angel drinks things other than blood here, then?  Did Ms. Princess Chosen One think their date would involve her drinking coffee, and Angel merely watching?

I suppose cutting the scene after the initial airing might not have been so much about the music-rights issue, then, and Joss merely took advantage of the need to re-cut to deal with the continuity flub, here.  Not so thrilled with the ex post facto edit, though, no matter how justified.  If it was in the aired version, I still want to see it, "Buffy's being a ditz' issue or not.

And I'm still sorry we lost Willow's "the dark can get pretty dark; sometimes you need a story" later on.  (I guess that could have been the part with the music issue, and the "non-blood drinks" bit was just a "well, as long as we're cutting stuff…" casualty.  Hmm.)

[Halting Hex]

Quote

WILLOW:  Oh, that's what that song is about?

Yes, Willow, indeed it is.  And now that Willow knows this, was she seeking out other…stimulating songs on her computer when Angel came by?  "Pictures of Lily"? "She Bop"? "Dancing with Myself"?  Huh.

Quote

BOB COSTAS (enthused):  "She bop, he bop and we bop. I bop and you bop."  I love the universality of that, it's so…empowering.

CYNDI LAUPER (deadpan; can't believe Bob's this thick):  It's a song about masturbation, Bob.

BOB:  Oh.

—Later with Bob Costas, c.1986

It's a bit annoying that

Spoiler

I can never talk about all the foreshadowing in this episode without massive spoiler bars.  By my count, there are at least five examples.

Quote

1.  ANGEL:  If you [Drusilla and Spike] don't leave now, it'll end badly.  For all of us.

Oh yeah, Dead Boy.  Enjoy Hell.

Quote

2.  DRUSILLA:  Oh, no, my Sweet.  This is just the beginning.

Yup, we've hit main plot here.

Quote

3.  ANGEL:  I can't come in.  You have to invite me.

WILLOW.  Oh.  Well, then…I invite you.  To come in.

One of the true sadistic joys of watching Passion reactions is the sudden look of horror on reactors' faces when Willow is on the phone with Buffy and they remember that Angel has been in her room, too.  Alley Box went "Oh, my God! OH MY GOD!!", for example.  You could practically see the shift to all-caps.

And remember, Joss planned it exactly that way.  Backed up by Angel reminding Buffy that once invited, he can always enter, later in this episode.  You magnificent bastard, Joss.

Quote

4.  BUFFY:  I'm rash and impulsive;  it's a flaw.

Buffy's being flip to Ford here, but she isn't lying.  She's prone to rash acts.  In Surprise, Giles specifically warns her about attacking the Factory without a plan, although he admits she's not being rash once he hears her plan.  

However, she doesn't make it out of 2.13 without that "flaw" showing up, with the Big Mistake at the end.

Quote

GILES:  Do you want me to wag my finger at you and tell you you acted rashly?  I can, and you did.  —Innocence

Hoo boy did she.  And, finger-wagging or no, a lot of people paid the price.

Speaking of which:

Quote

5.  GILES:  Nobody ever dies…

Yes, yes, Giles is lying on command here, not trying to deceive Buffy.   But still, "this being Sunnydale and all", putting this out into the universe almost guarantees someone will die.  Most likely Giles himself, or somebody close to him.  Basically, Giles is signing Jenny's death warrant here.

Damn it, G-Man…

In fact, it should be noted that this is the very last episode that Jenny appears in where she is happy all the way through:

The Dark Age—Gets violated and nearly dies.  She and Giles break up.

Ted—Awkward af at the start, although there is a happy reconciliation.

Surprise—Gets yelled at by Enyos, has to go into sneaky-spy mode.  She does get some alone time with a wet, semi-nude Angel…but she doesn't seem to take advantage of that "break up BAngel" chance.

Innocence—Her secret gets exposed, Buffy jumps her bones (another missed opportunity…), her uncle dies brutally, and Giles dumps her.  Eek.

BB&B—More awkwardness, plus Xander-gropage.  Still, I'm glad she got one "happy" episode (in reviewing Innocence, David Hines predicted that Jenny would only return in order to die while trying to make amends) before…

Passion—Yeah.  There you go, David.  Just one appearance after you predicted.  Ah, shitfuck.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 8/9/2021 at 1:23 AM, Halting Hex said:

And now that Willow knows this, was she seeking out other…stimulating songs on her computer when Angel came by? 

I always knew Willow was a naughty girl...

[Halting Hex]

Nice to see Jenny again, but should she really be taking Giles to Monster Trucks?  I mean, "this being Sunnydale and all", the name might not just be hype.

*********************

This is a fine episode, but it does sadden me that it breaks a statistic I particularly cherish:  in all 18 previous episodes, the entire core cast (Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles) had been present at the climactic action.  (Or, as in the Marcie episode, part of a key subplot that we cut to while Buffy was equally imperiled.). Sometimes Willow is just watching, but she's there.

Now it's "Buffy fights alone".  Somewhat dramatic, but a bit of a bummer for those of us who thought Spike had it right when he complained about "a Slayer with family and friends.  That wasn't in the brochure."  Buffy's strength is usually in her support team; this hurts the theme.

(And, as a practical matter, most villains won't be able to have compelling debates with Buffy, as Ford did.  What, if W/X/G and Angel don't fight their way into the frat house in Reptile Boy, we'd have more screentime to hear Tom Warner talk about his deep relationship with his penis snake god?  Pass.)

But, good news!  Willow, Xander and Angel do come running up right after Buffy beats Spike and saves the wannabes.  Yay!  (Giles is presumably on another date.  Or off indulging in whatever his dark secret from last episode turns out to be.)

The question is…how do they know Buffy's there?  AFAWK Buffy didn't leave any notes or consult with them about her plans.  

Did Angel somehow sense where Buffy is?  Spike did pick Buffy out of a crowd at the Bronze in 2.03…is this an unmentioned vampiric ability?

Or did Buffy rig some sort of device to keep him in the loop?  In other words…did she trigger the Bat-Signal?

**************************************************************

Not only does Buffy let Ford have his (relatively) painless death that he wanted (yes, vampires can be vicious, but Spike seemed more intent on escaping the bunker than prolonged torture, and anyhow 6 hours < 6 months, painwise), but she even lets him have his vampiric "immortality", albeit for all of two seconds.

I mean, Buffy finds the body, after Spike has gone.  She could have easily told the EMTs that Ford was a friend (true) and that he'd requested cremation.   We saw in 1.05 that the funeral home has that option.

But no, she let a demon briefly possess Ford's corpse.  Does staking the vampire kill the demon, too?  Is there one fewer denizen of the underworld available to inhabit the next poor sucker who does that "whole big sucking thing"?  Hmm.

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

The question is…how do they know Buffy's there?  AFAWK Buffy didn't leave any notes or consult with them about her plans.

A good question. I guess the answer is: this is Sunnydale. Probably they've learned the same way those vamps from Team Absalom knew exactly who they had to sacrifice in order to bring back the Master at the beginning of the season... 

[Halting Hex]

On 12/19/2018 at 8:14 PM, Halting Hex said:

Of course, it makes sense that Spike would want to get "paid" before he gives Ford his "reward", not only because Ford might be full of wind, but because it would be more difficult for Ford to use his access to Buffy to entrap her if he was already turned and might set off her vampdar.  (Which has failed her plenty of times, but of course Spike doesn't know that.)

Actually, this might not be true.  If Spike thinks about it, he might recall that he observed Buffy at The Bronze in 2.03 without her reacting to him at all.  So he has seen her 'dar on the fritz, even if he hasn't done it as repeatedly as Angel has.

Spoiler

Certain 'shippers might wish to make something of Spike being as undetectable as Angel ("See, she loved him even then!"), but of course that makes little sense.  Given that, at that moment, Buffy didn't even know Spike existed, much less having laid eyes on him.  Buffy might fall in love quickly, but I do think that would be pushing it.

And besides, Buffy's vamp-dar doesn't detect VampWillow at the Bronze in Döppelgängland, either.  And much as I'd like to think that says something about Buffy's feelings for the redhead, VW isn't the first female vamp who didn't set off Buffy's antennae, either.  She doesn't catch on that Darla is spying on her from the nearby stacks in Angel and she has no clue what's up with the Immolation-a-Gram in Becoming, Part 1 before the vamp reveals herself.  (Not like that, pervs! Sheesh…)

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Halting Hex