Jump to content

Type keyword(s) to search

Clara Oswin Oswald: The Only Mystery Worth Solving

Lisin

By Lisin
in Doctor Who

  • Reply
  • Start Topic

Recommended Posts

Toaster Strudel

Toaster Strudel

I have never watched Doctor Who before this season.

 

While I enjoyed discovering Doctor Who himself, and I liked Danny Pink a great deal, my loathing of the character killed my enjoyment for the show.  And it's a pity because Jenna Coleman is adorable, and can act.  That was not enough for me not yo want to strangle Clara Oswald.  She was manipulative, extraordinarily selfish, full of herself, and not smart at all.  She was mean and dismissive to the Doctor who was inexplicably loyal to her.  It was an abusive relationship and very unpleasant to watch.  I yearned to see them as complementary, and cooperating with each other, rather than Clara being constantly antagonistic and trying to usurp the Doctor.

 

Therefore I have made the decision not to watch this show again as long as Clara Oswald is in it. I will resume watching when she's gone without a chance of returning.

  • Replies 121
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Daisy
Daisy

I think with Clara - she has her flaws, but we're never shown/explained in greater detail, which was my issue with Amy and Rory as well. they keep saying "I love you" or "I enjoy doing this" or we're

Llywela
Llywela

I think a lot of the trouble is that most of Clara's characterisation is driven by plot requirement, rather than her responses to the plot being driven by her character. It's a subtle but crucial dist

Lokiberry
Lokiberry

Let me just say that I hated the whole "Impossible Girl" business. For one thing, the only reason it existed at all was to distract people from Trenzalore, and how the Doctor would finally speak his n

Llywela

Llywela

I have never watched Doctor Who before this season.

 

Therefore I have made the decision not to watch this show again as long as Clara Oswald is in it. I will resume watching when she's gone without a chance of returning.

That's a shame. But if you like the show in concept and it's just this character that's a problem, maybe go back a bit and try some of the earlier seasons? I've just been rewatching the Davies era, up to series four now, and while it has its faults, I'm finding it far more re-watchable than the current Moffat era.

 

As far as Clara goes, I hate to say it but I do lay at least part of the blame at Jenna Coleman's feet. She's a decent enough actress and does well when given strong material to work with, but she has failed to move beyond the weaker material she's been lumbered with. I've tried to imagine some of her more unlikeable scenes with different companions in them and know that those actors would have succeeded in lifting the material above what's on the page, would have been able to imbue their characters with enough likeability to remain sympathetic even when going wildly astray. I know Clara's arrogance and cockiness is an intentional character flaw - hard to avoid knowing that, the point has been hammered home so far - but a truly strong actor can invest even an unpleasant character with enough shade and nuance to make them sympathetic anyway. That's where Coleman has failed, for me. She just doesn't have the subtlety or range to bring depth to Clara if it isn't written, which it hasn't been.

  • Love 4
Llywela

Llywela

Which season would you recommend?

Maybe start at the New Who beginning and get to know the 9th Doctor and Rose, then take it forward from there if they appeal to you? It's a strong first season - experimental, in many ways, as the writers flexed their muscles, working out what did and didn't work for the rebooted show in its new format, but there's a freshness about the storytelling and its dynamics that I find really appealing, and it's a good introduction to both the show and its new characters. :)

  • Love 1
Daisy

Daisy

I think with Clara - she has her flaws, but we're never shown/explained in greater detail, which was my issue with Amy and Rory as well. they keep saying "I love you" or "I enjoy doing this" or we're friends (with the Doctor) but we never really get the full, entire scope. 

 

which is Moffatt's biggest problem. He's all about the end result, and he never wants to build up the emotional collateral to let everyone enjoy it.

in a span of several episodes, we've seen funny haha's of Clara dating Danny. We never really see a full date, or them bonding, or sharing anything past the first date. We only almost always see Clara lying to Danny (why? Every other companion almost wanted to be all "look! I'm travelling with an Alien ). then when Danny was like "share it with me." her response was to keep lying to him and keeping it separate until she couldn't then the next episode she's finally going to come clean.... but then he's dead/Cyberman'ed. (and in typical Moffatt-ness he's given a "Just this Once, Everybody Lives!" trinket, and basically comes back [it doesn't matter that he didn't use it. Danny freaking had something to live]. 

 

to me that is  a massive flaw. I dont' care about Clara. Any 'nuance' about her is never explained or anything. I dont' care that she's manipulative, or a liar, or conceited, or think she's full of herself that she can treat everyone (including the Doctor beneath her) - because it never flat out impacts her life in any way. 

 

Travelling with the Doctor is supposed to 'impact' your life for the simple fact that the Doctor is challenging the way you think, the way you perceive things, how you do everything. Anything the Doctor does to push Clara, Clara throws a temper tantrum. Anytime Clara is in danger, your instant thought is "Oh. Clara is in danger." you don't think "how is this going to impact everyone in Clara's life?" 

 

I totally forgot Clara has a granny and parents. Where as you knew that if anything happened to Rose, it's not just the Doctor getting a pout on, it's Jackie and Mickey who is affected. If something happened to Martha -her parents, Trish and Leo. Donna - Mum and Wilf., and even expanding on that - when something DID happen ultimately to the companion. (Rose being trapped in Pete World, Martha deciding that she was worth more than what the Doctor had to give, Donna losing everything she gained by being the doctor, and basically forced to be small and ignorant once again -it resonated deep for most people. EVEN if you hated the character] 

Even with all my issues with Amy and Rory that was always there too. if something happened to Rory, you knew it would devastate Amy and vice versa. 

 

Clara was the impossible girl. and now she just exists. and no matter what happens with her, or who else 'companions, unless Moffatt corrects this, they too, in my opinion, will just exist. 

  • Love 10
Mabinogia

Mabinogia

That's an interesting point about Clara not really having anyone on the outside the way the last four did. Well, Amy's guy on the outside turned into her guy on the inside, but still, they all had lives outside of the Doctor. Ironically, she's the one trying the most to have a life outside of the Doctor. That's kind of interesting. We learned a lot about Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy through their families. But Clara, being the stupid Impossible Girl (yes I hated that whole arc, why do you ask? lol), is an island of one. Sure, we've got her meeting Danny but that never felt real to me. It all felt like set up for what was coming, which turned out to be his death I suppose. But yeah, Clara still doesn't feel like a fully realized person to me. She's a series of plot points. Pity, because I do quite like Jenna Coleman and would really like to love Clara. I loved Victorian Clara so I can love her, just not this generic version of her.

 

It's pretty hilarious when you think about it, since Moffatt claims this is her story. I think he missed on that one.

  • Love 3
Daisy

Daisy

That's an interesting point about Clara not really having anyone on the outside the way the last four did. Well, Amy's guy on the outside turned into her guy on the inside, but still, they all had lives outside of the Doctor. Ironically, she's the one trying the most to have a life outside of the Doctor. That's kind of interesting. We learned a lot about Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy through their families. But Clara, being the stupid Impossible Girl (yes I hated that whole arc, why do you ask? lol), is an island of one. Sure, we've got her meeting Danny but that never felt real to me. It all felt like set up for what was coming, which turned out to be his death I suppose. But yeah, Clara still doesn't feel like a fully realized person to me.

 

She's a series of plot points. Pity, because I do quite like Jenna Coleman and would really like to love Clara. I loved Victorian Clara so I can love her, just not this generic version of her.

 

It's pretty hilarious when you think about it, since Moffatt claims this is her story. I think he missed on that one.

 

and I think that Clara being the 'impossible girl' damaged Clara right off the bat. IG: Clara should have been wrapped up in season seven. It would have, and should have totally worked for a one season 1 "companion" right off. Actually, it would have worked out better had they interceded more "impossible girl" with the Amy/Rory storyline. if the premise was,there was always a Clara/Oswin/Oswald to save the Doctor, there should have beeen more of a leadup - a glimpse, or whatever.

 

then have the the regular story, but really build it up. make this a decision and achoice. WHY would Clara step into the time stream? if it had been Rose through River Song -it would have made sense  to me (and River Song -don't even get me started). for me. Clara stepped into the time stream, because the everyone pretty much said that's what she does so she thought "well, why not." vs.at that moment to walk in and save the Doctor, darn everything

 

and that's really something that's missing. most of thedecisions to 'save the Doctor" (or be with the Doctor) comes with this ultimate choice. (again -every companion faced this and it's palatable). Clara steps in and it's "ho hum, everything is saved. the end. 

  • Love 1
HauntedBathroom

HauntedBathroom

To be honest, I couldn't give a toss about RTD's companions family. Jackie? Whatever. The whole Jones clan? Yawn. Donnas family? Apart from feeling sorry that they had that monster in their midst, boredom. I like the fact that Moffat makes the companions friends part of the story, with Rory being a companion as well, and Danny resolving the Cyber army plot

  • Love 1
Lokiberry

Lokiberry

(edited)

Let me just say that I hated the whole "Impossible Girl" business. For one thing, the only reason it existed at all was to distract people from Trenzalore, and how the Doctor would finally speak his name, and no one could lie, yada, yada, yada.  Moffat realized that he was never going to pay that off, so he came up with the IG crap to distract people, and then patted himself on the back for his cleverness (eyeroll).  I was not distracted, just disappointed.

 

Secondly, Clara didn't earn it. Maybe Rose (says someone who doesn't really like Rose) has had enough impact on the Doctor's life to well, have that kind of impact on his life. With Clara it was like, "Look at our cute, special girl! Isn't she cute and special as she shapes the outcome of EVERY SINGLE IMPORT POINT IN THE DOCTOR'S LIFE?!!! She's the most important companion evah!!1!!! Aren't you glad you're focusing on her instead of noticing that the Trenzalore thing is a compete bust?"  The problem with that (besides the fact that Trenzalore WAS a complete bust) was that Clara simply wasn't that important to the Doctor. She didn't mean as much to Eleven as Amy, or Rose to Nine and Ten, Ace to Seven,  Tegan to Five, Sarah Jane to Four, and so on. She was just the girl he was traveling with at that moment, with bonus mystery points. It didn't mean anything. It didn't pay off any story, it hasn't impacted any future events; it's sole purpose for existing was as a "clever" way for Moffat to pull his chestnuts out of the fire.

 

Much like Clara herself, the Impossible Girl has had no emotional impact on the Doctor or the story. It just sits there as a thing that Moffat said had to happen, like how there had to be a separate War Doctor, instead of letting the story play out with Eight where it clearly belonged. Moffat's cleverness is having an increasingly negative impact on the show, and I truly wish he would just leave, and take his Impossible Girl with him.

Edited by Lokiberry
  • Love 7
Llywela

Llywela

The other day, I was browsing a thread over at the Gallifrey Base forum, and a poster there was reeling off all the reasons he considered Clara to be the best and most important companion there has ever been. She was in the 50th anniversary. She went into the Doctor's timeline. She's met every Doctor ever. She's saved every Doctor ever. She got the Doctor a new set of regenerations. And so on. And it struck me that with that person, at least, Moffat has succeeded. Every single virtue that person listed for Clara was authorial gift, something she'd been given by the writing to artificially boost her importance. There was nothing there about who Clara actually is as an individual at all. Yet that person believed it. He believed what he was being told, at face value, without questioning it in the slightest. Yet if you scratch the surface even as much as skin deep, Clara falls apart, because for all that we've been told so many times how amazing she is, season 7 failed to invest in her as a person whatsoever. That's Moffat's storytelling down to a 'T' - he'd rather throw spectacular events at us and tell us we have to love his characters because of them than invest time and effort in building them as believable and engaging individuals.

 

And his method undermines every other person the Doctor has ever known, respected and loved.

 

That approach isn't new - there was an element of it back as far as Rose under RTD, when we were constantly being told how much better she was than anyone the Doctor had ever known, but at least there was also investment in building audience engagement with Rose as a person. We cared about her because we knew her, we'd watched her relationship with the Doctor grow. With Clara, she was rightfully wary of the Doctor one episode, as a stranger she'd just met, and the best of best friends with him the next - the relationship skipped straight from A to Z without going through any intermediary stages, presumably because Moffat's storytelling style involves best friends travelling and he doesn't have the patience to spend time building them up to that stage, so he just skips it. He skips a lot of important storytelling stages, but Clara is where the cracks show the most.

  • Love 3
proserpina65

proserpina65

I wish they had kept Clara as the tech savvy girl when we first met her. I think it would've been fun to have someone that knew about some Alien tech or invented her own. Then I could at least buy she thinks herself close as to smart as the Doctor (even when she's not). 

Sort of like a modern, more adult version of Zoe from the Third Doctor's time?  I could've gotten behind that character.

pootlus

pootlus

I really liked her in Asylum of the Daleks - I completely regret that reaction now as I gave up watching because of her, and she is in danger of surpassing my loathing for Rose (who I also gave up watching because of, and only caught up later with the much more awesome Martha and Donna years).  I guess the conclusion I have is that a little goes a long way with Clara.

 

That's two programs I gave up this year because of a character - pretty sad.

  • Love 1
alias1

alias1

(edited)

I am thrilled that Clara will be back next season.  I was so disappointed in the writing for her this year, and that awful sendoff for her that was supposed to be it in the Christmas Special.  It would be an absolute shame for this to be Jenna Coleman's legacy on Doctor Who, with everyone hating her character.  I just hope they can now have a normal Doctor/Companion relationship and have some great adventures, with the emphasis on the adventures and not on her personal drama.

 

I recently signed on to Amazon Prime and was able to watch a couple of classic who episodes  So far, I love the relationship between Sylvester McCoy and Ace.  I'm hoping they can do something similar for Twelve and Clara.

Edited by SierraMist
  • Love 1
alias1

alias1

I'm glad Clara is there too for Series 9 but I would add another companion into the mix. Either Psi, Saibra or Shona or someone new. Not a love interest for Clara or someone overly antagonistic with Twelve too.

I agree about no love interest for Clara, nor any other personal drama for her.  I really didn't see anything special about Shona, no more so than Journey Blue, for example (the Doctor could change his mind about soldiers, that never made any sense anyway).  Psi and Saibra would be wonderful.  They're a little more unusual, and would be great in addition to Clara.  I agree that the Doctor needs more than one companion anyway, and not someone connected to Clara.  And then when Clara goes (with a normal, happy sendoff) they could still be the companions.     

HauntedBathroom

HauntedBathroom

If Clara had left being 80-ish old in the Christams special, I wouldn't have been crying. I like Clara, I think she had a consistant. intelligent character arc in season 8, but I'm pretty much done with her. Hopefully, now that the Doctor seems to have his mojo back, he and Clara will have more of a standard relationship.

  • Love 1
tv-talk

tv-talk

Really need to add a Companion who isnt from Earth, like an Adric for instance. Hopefully now that Clara is "free" from Danny and whatever else we're supposed to believe she cared about, the TARDIS can actually get out and do some real travelling with constantly having to be back on Earth for one reason or another. This is a sci-fi show, I would think the fanbase will constantly be appreciative of alien worlds, life forms, societies, etc

  • Love 1
Llywela

Llywela

(edited)

Latest DWM (released today) has an interview with Jenna Coleman. Worth a read but no major spoilers for Series 9, other than her stating the Doctor and Clara are like an addiction to each other.

Really? Urgh.

 

This is one of the reasons I avoid interviews, they always end up annoying me. 'An addition' to each other, really? What are we supposed to take from that? What's it supposed to mean, beyond PR to hype up the show and relationship? Addictions are not healthy, so are they telling us this is still a toxic relationship that's bad for them both? Are we supposed to be pleased about that, after the mess that was Series 8? Or are we supposed to be pleased that these two individuals are somehow obsessed with one another, for no readily apparent reason?

 

Or is it just the usual guff to make the Current Companion seem like The Most Important Ever? Because New Who seems to believe it's a competition, that they must go out of their way to 'prove' (by saying things like this) that whoever the Doctor is with at the moment is more important to him than anyone else he has ever known.

 

Clara had so much potential in the beginning, but this kind of writing, this kind of hype, it just damages the character because it's hype without substance to back it up. What exactly is it about her that is supposed to be so addictive to the Doctor? Because as a person she's no better than any other friend he's ever had - in fact, a darn sight less pleasant than many of them. Portraying him in this way makes the character somehow so much smaller than he once was. And what exactly is it about the Doctor that she's supposed to be addicted to? Because we keep being told that she can't let go, while mostly being shown that she's got other things she'd prefer to be doing. The end of the Christmas special was the first time she actually seemed eager to go travelling with him, and I'd hoped that would at least be an end to the toxicness of their relationship, but if it is still being described as an 'addiction', perhaps that won't be the case after all.

 

I think the trouble is the tendency to tie each new relationship to Plot Arc, instead of using plot as the backdrop against which to tell a character story. I mean, there have been plenty of other companions who could be said to be addicted to life with the Doctor, leaving behind their past ambitions, but what for those characters was merely part of their story, with Clara is being over-emphasised and over-sold as the main thrust of her story, treated as both a virtue (in storytelling terms) and a terrible thing (for Clara as a person), without actually being properly explored - it's just window-dressing for contrived dramatics. Everything about Clara is overdone - if they could just throttle back and attempt a bit of subtlety, she would improve so much.

 

Damn, I can still barely hear Clara's name without getting annoyed. It makes me really sad because I had such hopes for the character after not much enjoying Amy's story - I wanted so badly to like Clara, but I've never been so disappointed in a fictional character.

Edited by Llywela
  • Love 4
Lokiberry

Lokiberry

I do think Clara and Twelve will have a far warmer friendship in Series 9 compared to some of Series 8, now that their main issues are somewhat resolved.

I'm sure they will, too. Moffat's not an idiot, he knows people are unhappy about the way things have been. The problem is that, even though they'll get along better, it'll be all about Clara, with the Doctor guest starring in his own tv show.

  • Love 3
goodbyeglittergirl

goodbyeglittergirl

Damn, I can still barely hear Clara's name without getting annoyed. It makes me really sad because I had such hopes for the character after not much enjoying Amy's story - I wanted so badly to like Clara, but I've never been so disappointed in a fictional character.

 

Yes. Agreed! I started out liking Clara ok - in her first Christmas episode - but it seems like she's been around FOREVER and she's so irritating. I was thrilled when the rumors hit that she was leaving, and so sad when those rumors did not come true. Every episode is the Clara Show and it's irritating. I really like Capaldi but I feel like he's being pulled down with this Clara business. 

  • Love 3
ketose

ketose

History repeats itself. Clara is the new Peri. When Six came along, he treated Peri bad in the sense that he tried to kill her when he was post regeneration. By their second season, the relationship was better, but not on screen much. That was "Trial of a Time Lord" which I consider a better one-season arc than any of the ones I've seen on NuWho.

Llywela

Llywela

(edited)

History repeats itself. Clara is the new Peri. When Six came along, he treated Peri bad in the sense that he tried to kill her when he was post regeneration. By their second season, the relationship was better, but not on screen much. That was "Trial of a Time Lord" which I consider a better one-season arc than any of the ones I've seen on NuWho.

Yeah. The parallel between this pairing and the 6th Doctor with Peri has been discussed a bunch of times, since before series 8 even aired, when all the press coming out of the show was telling us to anticipate a 'darker, edgier' Doctor. Moffat and his team evidently wanted to take the same basic concept that lay behind the 6th Doctor and do it right this time. Trouble is, I don't think they did - I thought series 8 was a mess. And I'll take Peri over Clara any day. Clara is catered for rather better by the writing, she gets lots of authorial gifts to make her look awesome, but I think Peri is a nicer person.

Edited by Llywela
elle

elle

(edited)

Clara's new look for Series 9 (warning: contains a spoiler for a returning character) ....http://40.media.tumblr.com/5713c3463bc78b1008eca0293728d686/tumblr_nkgbi2W0oQ1rsoxtao1_500.jpg

I don't see any difference between this and her "old look".

 

Oh look, two characters I can't stand.

Ha!

Edited by elle
Ringthane

Ringthane

I just saw this - http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-31762466 :

 

 

Doctor Who: Jenna Coleman 'planned to quit' last year

 

Jenna Coleman planned to quit Doctor Who last year, the show's chief writer Steven Moffat has said.


The actress was widely rumoured to be leaving her role as Clara Oswald after a cliffhanger in the series eight finale, Death In Heaven.

Moffat confirmed to Doctor Who magazine she had asked to be written out.

"That was her last episode," he said. "Then she asked me if she could be in [the] Christmas [episode]. So I said, 'OK, I'll write you out in Christmas.'"

"She came to the read through and did the 'write out' version - and again changed her mind."

"But the truth is I never wanted her to go. And with Last Christmas, I'd already written the alternative version where she stayed, and I preferred that version.

"Frankly, I didn't want to lose her. She's an amazing actress, and she never stops working to make Clara better.

"I was very happy to go the extra mile to make sure we could keep her.

 

Two thoughts came to mind:

 

1) Dangit.

 

2) I wonder if any of the other actors in the show have had this opportunity.  For example, Peter Davison has said that if his third season would have been his second, he would have stayed.  He also said he wanted to stay after he got partway through filming his last season, but by then it was too late to reconsider.  If Jenna Coleman can reconsider at the read-through of her final episode, then maybe it wasn't too late for Peter?  I know, the new lead had to be cast, and all that.  But what if it had been possible for him to stay?  The whole history of Doctor Who would be different today.

 

Actually, a third thought just occurred to me - Moffat is once again BSing.  Like he did when he said "Oh, yeah, I've got this great idea about why Capaldi's Doctor looks just like the guy from Rome, and I even went to RTD and got help with it and stuff and it's going to be a big part of this season and blah blah blah".  What happened to that?  I think, as another DW producer once said, "the memory cheats".  Only it's Moffat's memory, not ours. 

  • Love 1
ketose

ketose

The Whoverse has had an interesting time with actor retention. I guess it's better now than in the old days. Colin Baker was sacked unceremoniously. Then again, that was a time when the BBC was actively trying to kill the show. I'm a little annoyed that JLC kind of ruined last season by forcing that season-long exit story line instead of spending more time on The Doctor. In the old days, they would write one line about her getting married off or being sick of traveling.

  • Love 1
elle

elle

Most of the companions on this show love travelling with the Doctor, but then at some point, it's time to move on.  But, they constantly have Clara questioning what she wants to do.  It gets in the way of fun adventures in the Tardis.

Borrowing this from another thread...

 

Clara was not questioning what she wants to do from the beginning, right?  Am I incorrectly remembering this?  I know she had the whole "see ya next week" deal with The Doctor, but she was still keen on going.

 

Maybe the split in The Doctor's timeline really did do something to her, take out the desire to travel.

Llywela

Llywela

Borrowing this from another thread...

 

Clara was not questioning what she wants to do from the beginning, right?  Am I incorrectly remembering this?  I know she had the whole "see ya next week" deal with The Doctor, but she was still keen on going.

 

Maybe the split in The Doctor's timeline really did do something to her, take out the desire to travel.

Yeah, that was definitely a season 8 development, distinct from the arrangement in season 7. I think it was the Doctor's regeneration rather than Clara's trip through his timeline that did it, though. He regenerated, became an older, crankier, more emotionally aloof man, and she wasn't sure she either liked or trusted him any more and therefore also wasn't sure she wanted to continue their friendship and travels. She never quite managed to cut the cord, though - even when she said it was over, it wasn't.

elle

elle

Yeah, that was definitely a season 8 development, distinct from the arrangement in season 7. I think it was the Doctor's regeneration rather than Clara's trip through his timeline that did it, though. He regenerated, became an older, crankier, more emotionally aloof man, and she wasn't sure she either liked or trusted him any more and therefore also wasn't sure she wanted to continue their friendship and travels. She never quite managed to cut the cord, though - even when she said it was over, it wasn't.

That "development" was such a regression for the characters, imho.

 

The part I put in bold made me think of the "what ifs" of someone being brave enough to go back to the original formula and have the TARDIS be the random traveler it was.  Put in that situation, or rather, stuck; what could have been done with Clara's character trying to adjust to this new, foreign to her doctor with no options to pop home for her job, or a date, or whatever.

 

le sigh.

  • Love 1
kassygreene

kassygreene

But 12 is an older, crankier, more emotionally aloof man - he spent 900 years on the planet called Christmas, watching this utopia fall apart because of him, his only constant companion being the senile head of a cyberman called Handles.  For Clara that same time sequence happened in the span of half a day.  11 was far and away the longest regeneration - about 1100 years.

  • Love 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...