S14.E12: Prophet and Loss

[Myrelle]

Sam and Dean must figure out how to stop the bloodshed when Donatello who, in his current condition, is inadvertently scrambling the order of future prophets. Nick comes face to face with his past.

[Katy M]

I liked it.  I don't care what anybody else says:)

I know I'm the only one enjoying the Nick story, but somebody has to so it might as well be me.

I'm kind of annoyed about Donatello, though. If they had just unplugged him and let him die, then we would have one less soulless person running around.  OK, I guess we wouldn't have gotten that weird and nowhere close comparison, but whatever.

Dean's nightmare at the beginning broke my heart.

Those murders icked me out.  And burning someone alive.  Awful.

[ILoveReading]

That went about as I expected and was pretty much just a rehash of Point of No Return.  Right down to Dean getting beaten up by his so called loved ones because he's not doing what they want. 

Sam doesn't treat Dean any better than John did.  He's a carbon copy of his dad.

I know that scene was Dean begging Sam to rescue him (but at least it was just a dream).

[Myrelle]

Safe to watch. Predictable, but Dean tried as hard as he could and stayed IC.

A Bronlies dream come true, but if Michael escapes, it's on Sam and Cas as much as it's on Dean now, AFAIC.

Lots of stuff to talk about but the best part is that the Michael!Dean sl continues unabated and we have a good chance of seeing him again, I think.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

A Bronlies dream come true, but if Michael escapes, it's on Sam and Cas as much as it's on Dean now, AFAIC.

IMO, its all on Sam.  Dean was going to do it but Sam beat him up to stop him.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean's nightmare at the beginning broke my heart.

Those murders icked me out.  And burning someone alive.  Awful.

Dean broke my heart constantly throughout this one.

And IA that the baddie was Very Bad, but this one was another one that felt more old school to me.

The Nick stuff is so anti-climatic, as it was last week, but Buck-Lemming are just biding time until they can bring Lucifer back, I'm sure.

[Aeryn13]

Okay, found this acceptable. Dean clearly was willing to go through with it, despite the nightmare in the beginning. So he didn't chicken out which was my greatest worry. 

So they pulled a predictable BM thing. Not perfect but they still have some time so Dean feeling fighting? Okay. 

[tennisgurl]

The second Nick showed up again, I literally said "oh god, not again" out loud. I liked Nick at first, and his comparison to Dean and his situation with Michael is pretty good, but he takes up so much screen time now, and his plot is just the same thing over and over, that I am officially done with him. I did enjoy his wife in the one scene we had with her, reading him the riot act for being an asshole who misses his demon daddy and wants him back, damn the consequences for anyone else. Just admit you want Lucifer back, show, and get it over with.

The serial killer not prophet was quite creepy, it felt like an episode of Criminal Minds had somehow got into an episode of Supernatural. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by tennisgurl

[MysteryGuest]

I missed the first 10 or 15 minutes, so I missed Dean's dream of being in the box.  I'll have to check that out tomorrow.  I liked what I did see, however.  Katy M, I wish I could say the same about the Nick storyline, but alas, I cannot.  I feel as though I'm watching a completely different show when he's on screen, and it's maddening.  If they're going to bring Lucifer back, which I'm sure they are, then just get it over with already.  Nick is actually more annoying than Lucifer to me, and that's hard to fathom.

So Dean's been talked back off the ledge, at least for a little while.  I thought Jared did a great job tonight of showing his desperation.  And kicking Dean's ass a bit to get his attention didn't bother me at all.  I'm a bit confused about the whole Donatello thing.  Was his trying to "fix" himself causing the next prophet in line to run around murdering people?  If so, they really should have checked in on him sooner than they did.

I'll watch the entire episode tomorrow or Saturday, but I enjoyed the majority of what I saw tonight.

Edited February 1, 2019 by MysteryGuest

[ILoveReading]

Moving to bitch/jerk to be safe

Edited February 1, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Okay, found this acceptable. Dean clearly was willing to go through with it, despite the nightmare in the beginning. So he didn't chicken out which was my greatest worry. 

So they pulled a predictable BM thing. Not perfect but they still have some time so Dean feeling fighting? Okay. 

I knew it would be ok when we got that scene at the beginning as the teaser(poor man!-scratching at the wall until his fingers bled-in his sleep!!)

Not thrilled with Sam cutting Dean off when Dean was talking about John sending him(Dean) away when Dean made him(John) mad. Holy Shit. Dear old dad has a lot to answer for.

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And kicking Dean's ass a bit to get his attention didn't bother me at all. 

It didn't bother Dean at all either. And that, in a nutshell, is what has made Dean's story so sad for all these years, IMO.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And kicking Dean's ass a bit to get his attention didn't bother me at all.

This was no better than Cas beating up Dean.  It says that Dean is expected to behave or he deserves to be beat up or treated like he's some how quitting or Sam or some kind of failure. 

It would be nice to see Sam try to understand Dean's POV here rather than making it all about himself.  He came across as extremely self centered.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The problem with that end scene is that it was all about Sam.  How it effected him, how he felt Dean was quitting (he wasn't.  He's trying to stop the world from burning.)  How Dean had no faith in him.

What was it Nick said to Sam.  "it's not about you." 

It seems that didn't take. 

And it likely never will. 

And Dean knows that. That's what makes it so sad.

But I still feel like they're going to have to revisit the Box as the only answer,

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

It didn't bother Dean at all either. And that, in a nutshell, is what has made Dean's story so sad for all these years, IMO.

Well, it was hardly an ass kicking.  I was exaggerating a bit there.  It was just Sam's desperation coming out and I thought he really nailed it.  That was a great scene between the two of them, and it's the reason I keep watching.  The brother bond is the only thing that hasn't gotten old for me.  

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It would be nice to see Sam try to understand Dean's POV here rather than making it all about himself.  He came across as extremely self centered.

Sam has always been self-centered, but in these last few episodes, I am finally beginning to feel that the writers  now see it, too.

Quote

First, it will be a crime against humanity if this show ends without any kind of award for Jensen

Amen, sister.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Myrelle

[Bergamot]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Lots of stuff to talk about but the best part is that the Michael!Dean sl continues unabated and we have a good chance of seeing him again, I think.

Yes! That was my first thought after the episode, that I was happy because Dean is still Michael's Cage! I would like to see Michael again, myself, but  I also would not mind if they made Dean going into the box the season ending cliffhanger.

 

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Dean tried as hard as he could and stayed IC.

 

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean clearly was willing to go through with it

Yes. And I think it's ridiculous to talk as if he was somehow beaten into submission by a couple punches from Sam. Dean was ready to go; it was Sam and Cas who couldn't handle it. It's true they are all taking a big risk with the fate of the world, but in the end, Dean will be able to do what he has to do. I think he just felt that he needed to give Sam and Cas more time to look for another solution, but more than that, from what he said at the end, I think he just wants to give them more time to accept what he believes is inevitable.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

  It was just Sam's desperation coming out and I thought he really nailed it.  That was a great scene between the two of them, and it's the reason I keep watching. 

You giving up on me, your quitting on me.  Dean wasn't doing either.  He was trying to save the world.  A good scene would have been Sam understanding Dean's desperation.  Not once again making Dean think he was letting Sam down. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Also candy for me as I was right about the "character who returns to help one of the leads" be Nickifer's dead wife.  :)

 

As for the bro-bond and BMs, they come with this Show. I just try to ignore them as best as possible. This relationship hasn't been anything good for me in a decade. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But I still feel like they're going to have to revisit the Box as the only answer,

How does that play out, though?  With a season 15 on the horizon, having Dean spend it in a box would not be my first choice as a Dean girl.  I thought the emotions were perfect.  Dean was doing his best to not allow himself to feel anything so that he could go through with his choice.  So naturally Sam is going to manipulate those emotions to get him to change his mind.  Dean would have done the exact same thing, and probably more.  Dean doesn't always play by the rules when it comes to saving Sam, and I doubt he would have here, either.

[trudysmom]

I like it alot.  Dean was's emotions were all over the place from scared, to determined, guilty and sentimental.  Jared did a great job too, better than I've thought of him in awhile.  I liked that he slugged Dean to get him to listen.  Cas seemed more animated, more there than he's seemed to be in awhile, too.  The haywire prophet killings were gory, I told trudysdad the show hasn't gone this dark in a long time.  As to them rehashing old storylines, it may be all they have left.  When Carol Burnett ended her comedy show she said "There's only so many ways to cross your eyes".  After 14 seasons (15! yay, renewed!) I'm pretty okay with some rehashed stories, heck maybe they'll even get some right the second time.  

I was willing to give MP some credit for last week's episode, but  I KNEW the second that cop taunted him in the hospital he was a goner and we would be gifted with more more more Nickifer.  Maybe the boys will find out he escaped, hunt him down shoot him dead.  For good.  Forever.

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Not thrilled with Sam cutting Dean off when Dean was talking about John sending him(Dean) away when Dean made him(John) mad. Holy Shit. Dear old dad has a lot to answer for.

I can see both points of view here. Sam wasn't, and isn't, ready to accept Dean's sacrifice. It's selfish, sure, but it does come from a place of love for Dean. 

I think this episode showcased how much Sam needs Dean, and how connected they really are. Like Sam said, Dean's sacrifice was a fate worse than death. Sam knew that he was going to have to think about Dean being tortured for eternity without any sort of peace. And, like any sane person would, Sam reacted badly. His reaction isn't perfect because Sam isn't perfect. He lived in denial all episode, shut down the thought of Dean going through with it, and then let all of those feelings fester until the end of the episode, where he took his anger out on the wrong person. I think Sam was more angry with himself and at Michael. The punch seemed to be a reaction of his feelings of helplessness. Again, selfish but coming from a place of love for Dean. 

I guess I thought Jared sold it well. It wasn't a perfectly written episode, but the acting sold it for me. Jensen also sold Dean's feelings well. He's scared but he knows this is what has to be done and he just wants to get Michael and him in the box, maybe because he knows he can't hold the door shut on Michael for that long. So Sam and Cas will have to cave eventually. I'd be ok if Sam didn't end up finding a solution (although there'd need to be a convoluted way to get Dean OUT of the box if he does go in), but I cannot blame him for wanting more time with his brother. I think he knows why Dean has to do this, but he doesn't want his brother to suffer as much as he doesn't want to let him go. 

I've always cared a lot about the relationship between Sam and Dean. Their brotherly love for each other is why I tune in, even through the rough patches. 

Meh on the Nick stuff. Can he go away, please? Same with Donatello. I would have rather he died. We don't need prophets running around again. I assume the next prophet has already been awoken so they're likely running around. 

[lmdreamer]

Was a good episode but why didn't  Donatello go with tfw to the bunker?  By choosing not to pull the plug they are responsible for him now. Plus he is a soulless loose cannon who the bad guys can easily use as proven in the past. Or at the very least have someone keep tabs on him or send him to jody/donna, something. 

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

m knew that he was going to have to think about Dean being tortured for eternity without any sort of peace

This is exactly what Dean felt when Sam was going to jump in the cage, yet he supported Sam's plan because the fate of the world was at stake. 

I didn't like the show's message that Dean was quitting.  He saw Billie's books and was told how the world was going to end unless he went through with his plan. 

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes. And I think it's ridiculous to talk as if he was somehow beaten into submission by a couple punches from Sam. Dean was ready to go; it was Sam and Cas who couldn't handle it. It's true they are all taking a big risk with the fate of the world, but in the end, Dean will be able to do what he has to do. I think he just felt that he needed to give Sam and Cas more time to look for another solution, but more than that, from what he said at the end, I think he just wants to give them more time to accept what he believes is inevitable.

The punch barely phased him. It was as if he hardly felt it. I think the "don't hit me again" was all for Sam's ego. Jensen was so wonderful in that scene. And I DO feel as if we're going to lose Dean at the end of the season. I'm joining in with Catrox and Gonzosgirl-it's coming, even if Sam and Cas can't face it yet. It feels a lot like S3 to me at this very moment.

[tennisgurl]

I basically liked the episode. The case of the week was interesting, and the guest stars were all good in their small parts. I wouldn't say it was anything special, but I did enjoy watching it, and while I am SO over Nick, I wasn't really pissed off at any point, and I consider that a win at this point. 

I am really torn on the Dean and Sam arguments. On the one hand, I can get why Sam is desperate to save his brother, and I did really feel that in Jared's performance. You can argue that while he being selfish, putting his own feelings before the greater good, and mostly looking at this as to how it would affect him, its also understandable and human, especially in the midst of fear and grief. But on the other hand, it WOULD have been nice to see Sam show more empathy for what Dean was going through, especially as Deans feelings are so often overlooked. Dean clearly does not want to do this, but feels like he needs to do this for the greater good, and while you can argue thats just how Dean has been raised, to constantly throw his own life and happiness away for others, and its unhealthy, it is, at the end of the day, his choice. I can see why Sam and Cas are upset that he has seemingly given up and isnt looking for any more options, but I can also see why Dean doesent want to prolong what he considers to be the inevitable. 

If nothing else, I thought that the actors were giving it there all, and the show did mostly manage to focus on the actual characters I give a crap about, so thats a very good thing at least. 

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

This is exactly what Dean felt when Sam was going to jump in the cage, yet he supported Sam's plan because the fate of the world was at stake. 

I didn't like the show's message that Dean was quitting.  He saw Billie's books and was told how the world was going to end unless he went through with his plan. 

I guess I don't understand what you wanted to see happen?  They really can't stick Dean in the box and toss him in the ocean.  Well, I guess they could, but then they'd need to come up with some cockamamy way to somehow rescue him from there.  This at least makes more sense. 

[Lady Calypso]

All I wish was that there could be some way where Dean could force Michael into Nick and then they could shove Nick into the box. Nick's itching for an archangel (maybe Michael will do to scratch his Lucifer itch?) and Dean needs to be rid of Michael. Easy peasy. The show could whip up some magical solution, here.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And I DO feel as if we're going to lose Dean at the end of the season. I'm joining in with Catrox and Gonzosgirl-it's coming, even if Sam and Cas can't face it yet. It feels a lot like S3 to me at this very moment.

Lose Dean as in he's going to die (wink, wink) and then be resurrected again for season 15?  Or do you think Jensen is leaving the show?  There's certainly been no indication of that, and I'd be stunned if he'd leave and Jared would continue on.  And since Dean's already died once, and gone to Purgatory once, I personally don't need to see him die again just to be brought back again.  That's the stuff that just gets silly to me since they've done it so often.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

All I wish was that there could be some way where Dean could force Michael into Nick and then they could shove Nick into the box. Nick's itching for an archangel (maybe Michael will do to scratch his Lucifer itch?) and Dean needs to be rid of Michael. Easy peasy. The show could whip up some magical solution, here.

That would be really cool.  Not sure how it would work, though, as they would also have to get MIchael on board, and even trapped in a room, he can probably hear what's going on.  But, if they could somehow trick Michael into tricking Nick that he was lucifer, and then trick them both into the box.  That would be soooo epic.

[MysteryGuest]

I could totally get on board with Nick in the box...that's a perfect solution.  Is there a petition I can sign somewhere?

[Myrelle]

21 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

I liked that he slugged Dean to get him to listen.

I didn't. I find it exceedingly sad that the characters on the show and some within the fandom and possibly even the writers of the show think that that's the only way to get through to Dean-because it's not and it never has been. Not IMO, anyway.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I don't understand what you wanted to see happen?  They really can't stick Dean in the box and toss him in the ocean.  Well, I guess they could, but then they'd need to come up with some cockamamy way to somehow rescue him from there.  This at least makes more sense. 

Donatello could have told given them some kind of lead.  Or said that the plan would fail because...reasons  Anything but Sam's guilt trip.   That end scene came across as once as the show acting like Dean had given up and was somehow doing something wrong.  I'd like it better if the show had Sam acknowledge that and ask for more time because of what Donatello said.  

[ZennyKenny]

Ok first of all, that last scene was AMAZING! J2 are such fantastic actors and that brought tears to both mine and my wife's eyes.

 

For the most part, I really enjoyed the episode. Just a couple of things:

- The second Nick popped up in that hospital bed my eyes hit the ceiling and I said "FUUUUUUCK!!!!"

- Sam was starting to piss me off the first half of the episode:

SAM: Please Dean, you don't have to keep your emotions inside, you can open up to me, I'm here for you, etc.

DEAN: Ok, well.. remember when we were kids?

SAM: OMG Dean could you NOT???

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I didn't. I find it exceedingly sad that the characters on the show and some within the fandom and possibly even the writers of the show think that that's the only way to get through to Dean-because it's not and it never has been. Not IMO, anyway.

I didn't like it any more than when Dean punched sam in Bloodlust or Metamorphosis.  Or when they beat on each other in When the Levee Breaks. I've had plenty of fights with my sister over the years and we've managed to settle them without punching each other.  Although, I've probably only restrained myself because I'm pretty sure she could easily beat me up if she put her mind to it.

5 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

SAM: Please Dean, you don't have to keep your emotions inside, you can open up to me, I'm here for you, etc.

DEAN: Ok, well.. remember when we were kids?

SAM: OMG Dean could you NOT???

LOL. You're right, I didn't even realize he did that.  The first thing I thought of was in NO Rest for the Wicked when DEan said he didn't want any goodbye speeches.   I was thinking Sam was in the wrong because Dean was the one that was 'dying' and therefore he gets to do it his way.  OTOH, I think Dean did tell him to not think about it.

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Lose Dean as in he's going to die (wink, wink) and then be resurrected again for season 15?  Or do you think Jensen is leaving the show?  There's certainly been no indication of that, and I'd be stunned if he'd leave and Jared would continue on.  And since Dean's already died once, and gone to Purgatory once, I personally don't need to see him die again just to be brought back again.  That's the stuff that just gets silly to me since they've done it so often.

Well, as has been said by others, this is how they roll on this show and who knows what might happen if Dean goes into the Box as the season-ending cliffhanger. 

[Wynne88]

Sam punching Dean and telling him to fight reminds me a lot of the scene in Sam's mind in I Think I'm Gonna Like it Here, where Dean punches Sam and tells him his plan is to fight.  I know that wasn't the real Dean; just saying it's still a retread.  I don't much care.  I thought the episode was great when Sam and Dean were in it; fairly horrific when the false prophet was killing people, and tired when it came to Nick.  

[tennisgurl]

Really, what fascinates me is that this show, I assume accidentally, a dark deconstruction of the Woman in Refrigerators trope that it has so embraced over the years.

Most notably, is Mary, who started this whole show off by burning up on the ceiling, and sparking Johns crusade and basically the entire freaking show. She was shown as this perfect ethereal wife and mother who was idealized by her husband and sons as this perfect person who is so amazing and heavenly that they needed to do anything, even ruin their own lives, to avenge her. Then we find out that her father also crossed endless lines and did terrible, evil things, all in an attempt to save her as well. Then, when we actually meet her...she isnt really that great. Yeah, I tend to give her crap kind of as a joke, and a lot of her issues are more about poor writing than her as an actual character, but she still stupidly sold her first born to a demon, is a terrible judge of character, and has spent most of her time on the show as an actual person and not an idealized memory not really blowing me away with her maternal instincts, basically glomping onto any person who isnt her sons and ignoring them, and is generally rather useless. All of this misery, all of these lives ended, and I am just left wondering if it was worth it. Is that what the show means for us to think? Probably not.

Then you have this episode, where after Nick endlessly angsts about his Dead Wife and kid, and its his whole motivation to accept Lucifer, and even after Lucifer was gone, his supposed reason to go on his rampage was to avenge his dead family. But this episode, when he gets the chance to finally give his wife some peace, the wife he so wanted to avenge and he so missed that it drove him to let the actual Devil take over his body to destroy the world, and...he turns her away, because he wants to go back to Lucifer and being evil. So really, how much did this wife mean to him? Was her death just an excuse to turn evil? 

Again, not sure the show is actually trying to say anything here, but its a sort of pattern. For all the supposed saintly people who died to motivate others, it often ends with the person being later revealed to have been not so awesome, or they're forgotten quickly, or it turns out their death was just an excuse for bad behavior that was there all along, and they didnt even end up mattering. Deconstruction, or questionable writing? You decide!

[trudysmom]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I didn't. I find it exceedingly sad that the characters on the show and some within the fandom and possibly even the writers of the show think that that's the only way to get through to Dean-because it's not and it never has been. Not IMO, anyway.

Oh please, let me clarify!  My thoughts were flying faster than my fingers!  I don't like when they beat up on each other either.  And no, I don't like when they act like violence is the only way to get through to Dean.  What I liked was that Jared/Sam finally showed some balls and some real feeling, not just frustrated looks and eye rolls.  I like that he held his own in that scene, and his desperation and frustration make him lash out.  To me, this episode, more than any in a long time, felt balanced between the brothers.  I may change my mind after I rewatch, I often do, after I process and catch things I missed the first time.  But for now, I'm happy with this episode, with the exception of NickWhoWilNotGoAway.  That also hasn't happened (for me) in a long time.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

Yes! That was my first thought after the episode, that I was happy because Dean is still Michael's Cage! I would like to see Michael again, myself, but  I also would not mind if they made Dean going into the box the season ending cliffhanger.

Jensen is still at the center of the myth-arc and Dean was kept IC-that was what mattered the most to me.

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I didn't like the show's message that Dean was quitting.

If this was the message that they were trying to convey, Jensen quite frankly obliterated it through his acting. Again.-and more thoroughly than I've ever seen him do it. He played it as Dean just feeling so bad and sorry for both Sam and Cas that they just couldn't accept the inevitable-as Bergamot mentioned. It was an emmy-worthy performance again from Mr. Ackles-and precisely because he undermined Sam's words AKA the writing yet again-and again, so very thoroughly this time. He really is Something Else, IMO.

 

 .

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for the bro-bond and BMs, they come with this Show. I just try to ignore them as best as possible. This relationship hasn't been anything good for me in a decade. 

IA. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Myrelle

[Bergamot]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

If this was the message that they were trying to convey, Jensen quite frankly obliterated it through his acting. Again.-and more thoroughly than I've ever seen him do it this time. He played it as Dean just feeling so bad and sorry for both Sam and Cas that they just couldn't accept the inevitable

That's what I saw as well. Dean felt awful for what this was doing to Sam and Cas, and I don't think he blamed them for lashing out the way they did. But he wasn't giving up at the end, or changing his mind, or saying he had been wrong. He is going to let them look for another way, but he doesn't really think they will find one. He still believes that he will have to take Michael with him into the box, and he is prepared to do that.

[S Cook Productions]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I liked it.  I don't care what anybody else says:)

I know I'm the only one enjoying the Nick story, but somebody has to so it might as well be me.

I'm kind of annoyed about Donatello, though. If they had just unplugged him and let him die, then we would have one less soulless person running around.  OK, I guess we wouldn't have gotten that weird and nowhere close comparison, but whatever.

Dean's nightmare at the beginning broke my heart.

Those murders icked me out.  And burning someone alive.  Awful.

I agree with pretty much all of this, and I like Nick’s story too. I find it a suitable way to give the Js more time off. So maybe the 2 of us are the only ones lol. 

[Ninamags]

I think that Lady Calypso is spot on regarding how to get rid of Michael aaaand Nick. Shove Michael into Nick and stuff him in the box. Works for me. 😬😬

 

Emotional brother moment to be sure.

Sam punching Dean is what they do. It’s not like they’re going to have Sam beg Dean on bended knee or try to speak kind words to each other. These guys don’t do soft-touch. It’s rough and tumble. 

They just don’t  have the emotional resources to speak to each other or get their point across  in any other way. That’s how they were brought up.... that’s the heart-breaking Part 🥺

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I didn't. I find it exceedingly sad that the characters on the show and some within the fandom and possibly even the writers of the show think that that's the only way to get through to Dean-because it's not and it never has been. Not IMO, anyway.

You know how I feel about Cas beating on Desn so many times (talk about power imbalance), but I can't really get mad at Sam here so much as at the writers for lack of originality.  This is exactly what Dean did to Sam in 9x01, before Ssm went into the cabin with Death. He punched him in the face a couple times, too. With quite a similar speech about fighting and not quitting.  

PS, I vote that @Lady Calypso join the writing staff immediately.  Brilliant solution!

[Bergamot]

43 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Then you have this episode, where after Nick endlessly angsts about his Dead Wife and kid, and its his whole motivation to accept Lucifer, and even after Lucifer was gone, his supposed reason to go on his rampage was to avenge his dead family. But this episode, when he gets the chance to finally give his wife some peace, the wife he so wanted to avenge and he so missed that it drove him to let the actual Devil take over his body to destroy the world, and...he turns her away, because he wants to go back to Lucifer and being evil. So really, how much did this wife mean to him? Was her death just an excuse to turn evil? 

No offense, but my problem is that this is the exact same scenario that seems to play out in every episode that has featured Nick. He claims he needs revenge for his dead family in order to find peace, cries a few crocodile tears over it, and then goes out and does something evil. He then claims that it is not his fault, it is Lucifer's fault, it is because of what Lucifer did to him. Dun, dun, dun, OR IS IT?  We then go through this whole cycle the next time he appears in an episode. What's the freaking point? It is OBVIOUS that there was something twisted and evil about Nick from the beginning. Never in the history of the show has anyone turned evil solely because they were possessed. I find Nick's story tedious and repetitive, even more so because I disagree with the conventional wisdom that MP is a wonderful actor. He is competent, but to me his portrayal is lacking in nuance and just very one-note; it doesn't do a thing for me, and that just increases the tedium.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

...but if Michael escapes, it's on Sam and Cas as much as it's on Dean now, AFAIC.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, its all on Sam.  Dean was going to do it

I think I agree with ILoveReading which I think is a bit of the point of what happened and is what I said would likely happen. I'd say more, but it would go into "Bitch vs. Jerk" territory.

57 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It was just Sam's desperation coming out and I thought he really nailed it.  That was a great scene between the two of them, and it's the reason I keep watching.  The brother bond is the only thing that hasn't gotten old for me.

Agreed. I thought that Jared did an exceptional job there.

51 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is exactly what Dean felt when Sam was going to jump in the cage, yet he supported Sam's plan because the fate of the world was at stake. 

Later on... after Death told Dean that it was the only way... and even then Dean said that he maybe lied to Death when he said that he was just going to let it happen. Dean had an episode or so to say that he hated Sam's plan, that it was crazy, etc. And Sam acquiesced, too. He said he wouldn't go through with it until everyone agreed.

So Sam has to make his adjustment too, still... He just learned about Dean's plan. he needs some time to adjust.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Not thrilled with Sam cutting Dean off when Dean was talking about John sending him(Dean) away when Dean made him(John) mad. Holy Shit. Dear old dad has a lot to answer for.

In a way, I can see why Sam cut Dean off there... because yeah: Holy shit. It kind of puts a question into why Sam was saying maybe Dean shouldn't listen to Dad sometimes, and just how much Dean pretended didn't happen in order to have his version of family. And my question... what happened to Sam while Dean was "sent away?" I can't imagine it was anything good if Dean felt guilty about not being there for Sam during that time. I'm not saying physical abuse, but there must have been a reason John would want to separate Sam and Dean. I can't help but wonder if sometimes Dean made John mad by sticking up for Sam, and yeah Sam wouldn't want to have to think about that right then.

Sam was using Dean's emotions a bit to get Dean to not go through with it, but I guess I can't entirely blame him for trying. And I agree with what you said above that Dean mainly acquiesced because he could see that Sam and Castiel weren't ready. I don't think that was all on Jensen, however. I think that that was also the intent of the writers also. Sam mentioned giving up - on them, not Dean giving up entirely (for me there is a difference) - but Dean did stick up for himself in that conversation, so it wasn't one-sided in my opinion.

Also Sam did acknowledge that that Dean was the one who was there for him and was the one who raised him. As I suspected, the intent here wasn't to make Dean's character look weak or badly, but to show just how much Sam and Castiel need and rely on Dean, and have both Sam and Castiel tell Dean that and have the show acknowledge that.

In my opinion anyway.

And also once again, Jared nails it for me with a Sam hug. I don't know what it is, but Sam hugging Dean is almost always my favorite of the brother hugs. This time he got a big hug back too, so that made it even sweeter. I'll have to see it again, but this might even rival the "Mystery Spot" hug as my hug favorite.

[tennisgurl]

@Bergamot That’s exactly what I was trying to say, so no offense taken! His plot is just Nick going on about his dead family, saying how Lucifer made him do it, then going back to Lucifer, rinse and repeat. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Sam has always been self-centered, but in these last few episodes, I am finally beginning to feel that the writers  now see it, too.

This doesn't bother me so much. It's not as if Dean hasn't been guilty of the same thing sometimes - the Gadreel situation comes to mind - and again that's not unusual. The characters are supposed to be human and human being are like that sometimes. But then again, Ive never thought that the writers had a problem with acknowledging either brother being a little selfish.

And I also agree with @Lady Calypso that it's coming out of a place of love.

And to whoever above it was who wondered if the Dean/John revelation was

Spoiler

a coincidence (I couldn't seem to find it again) - nope, not a coincidence at all in my opinion.

Edited February 1, 2019 by AwesomO4000
decided to spoiler tag just in case.

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

I think that Lady Calypso is spot on regarding how to get rid of Michael aaaand Nick. Shove Michael into Nick and stuff him in the box. Works for me. 😬😬

A turducken of evil. 

[catrox14]

Probably gonna be a big unpopular opinion, but that was a disjointed mess IMO.

I loved the opening scene with Dean and I honestly don't remember Dean's face EVER looking like that before. It was beautiful and awful at the same time.  I enjoyed most of the acting between Dean, Sam and Cas.  But that's about it.

I just am so fucking tired of the 100% incorrect assumption/presumption/narrative being put forth via Sam and Cas that Dean is committing suicide. He made the first sacrifice in s13 to save his loved ones, and THE universe from Lucifer which is being continually ignored to promote this, "Always Keep Fighting" message.  Yeah, I see that here 100%. And it's misplaced. This implies that Dean WANTS to die and no longer wants to live.  This isn't the case. I think that was more or less resolved last season. It's pretty clear he's scared just like he was when he was running out of time in s3.  IMO, the difference this time is that Dean already knows according to Billie what will happen if he doesn't do this.  

And yet, despite Sam's outburst and drunken punch on Dean, IMO, it clearly isn't going to change the outcome, based on Dean's face. He's placating them IMO but has no intention of not going through with it.

Pretty disgusted with all the gratiuitous torture porn.  Stop it, show. 

Can't give this one any higher than a C. 

[tessathereaper]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

That went about as I expected and was pretty much just a rehash of Point of No Return.  Right down to Dean getting beaten up by his so called loved ones because he's not doing what they want. 

Sam doesn't treat Dean any better than John did.  He's a carbon copy of his dad.

I know that scene was Dean begging Sam to rescue him (but at least it was just a dream).

Yep, do as I say, not as I do boy!  Sam has always been like John and he only wants Dean to do what he wants Dean to do how he wants Dean to do it and when he wants Dean to do it.   I'm not surprised Sam cut Dean off when he started talking about John sending him away when he was mad at Dean or disappointed in him - Sam's never been very good at listening to Dean and that was one of those "no time for Dean's problems, this is about me" moments.

And seriously "Dean isn't stupid, he's just too literal" what the hell?  No Dean isn't too literal, Dean has proven himself time and again probably the most creative thinker of ALL of them.  That is the writers saying Dean IS stupid, because that's exactly what they are claiming, that he's uncreative and too literal as a rule.  Got I hate these writers.Funny how when Sam wants to throw himself into the cage with Lucifer(a plan with even less going for it than Dean's box, given it hinged on managing to gain control of Lucifer in the first place, something Dean currently has on Michael) and Dean's a terrible person, a horrible unsupportive brother for being against and literally EVERYONE including Death himself pushes him to agree with that plan, but Dean's current plan is stupid, suicidal and somehow they manage to make it all about how it'll affect poor Sam in the end.     

Dean's plan is NOT a bad plan, it's not a stupid plan, it's not giving up, it's not suicidal, it's not selfish either and I don't like the show framing it as once again being somehow about Dean trusting or not trusting Sam. It's not about him trusting Cas.  When it has nothing to do with that.  This should have been about Sam and Cas trusting and respecting Dean's decisions.  They'd be raking him over the coals if the situations were reversed.  

Edited February 1, 2019 by tessathereaper