Manhattan - General Discussion

[Clanstarling]

It doesn't have to be either/or. The best references are multi-layered, and I think the writers of this show are subtle enough to have actively intended both the obvious (Truman) and the less obvious (poison) as both go hand in hand in this episode.

[ganesh]

The pills were cyanide though iirc, not arsenic, as already stated. A lethal cyanide dose is small and easy to hide comparatively. There's layers and there's seeing things that aren't there. So, it's more likely, 33 = Truman, given the main premise of the show and that this episode ended with FDR's death. 

[Beth64]

And of course the killer in Fargo.

He was a hilarious brothel owner in an episode of CSI several years ago, too.

[Tara Ariano]

Days before the world's first nuclear explosion, everyone races to secure their place in history.

[Clanstarling]

I love how the crazy explosive guy.  Was the crazy Russian astronaut in the movie Armageddon!!

 

Love how Helen new BF is telling her how great she is in bed.  Those European woman are crazy in the bedroom.  Must be driving those American men nuts!  Glad she got the guy and maybe the bucks!

 

Must say Paul did a good job.  But I still cant tell if he has a kid with nasty British boss daughter or not??   Anyone else know what going on there!   Love his letter to the Colonel about giving up his British citizenship.  Wordy and funny!!     

 

So how long was Charlie dad was in jail.  I think its been 15 years and he was about 15 years old when he did!  Anyone disagree or agree with that statement??  Charlie dad is some piece of work, but than again so is his son! 

I believe he does have a kid, but it was given up for adoption. And the British Boss has been lying about it - playing the long game to get Crosley.

 

Charlie's Dad said it was 9 years ago that Charlie lured him to his apartment to get him arrested.

 

I understand Frank's power plays - but the one thing I must have missed is what happened to his obsession with how many Americans were dying each day.  Being lied to about a German bomb hasn't stopped those deaths (well, until Hitler killed himself - but then there are the boys in the Pacific theater).

 

Speaking of the Pacific Theater, I was floored at the British Boss's statement that "their" war was over, they had no problem with the Japanese. The British Empire of that day spanned the globe, and they were fighting the Japanese just as much as we were (with more British subjects, including civilians, at risk). But, since his character is such a slimy guy, I wasn't sure to take that as a belief, or just another gross statement from him.

[gwhh]

Did not realize that.  Thanks for the info!!

 

 

He was a hilarious brothel owner in an episode of CSI several years ago, too.

And of course the killer in Fargo.

[Ina123]

Just die, Abby.

[janeta]

I was so hoping Darrow would disappear Abby.

So everyplace on the hill is bugged except the room that Meeks and whatshername are plotting in?

[Ina123]

Finally someone is on to Meeks. Good episode tonight, except Abby is still alive.

[mjc570]

wow,I totally didn't see Charlie turning to the dark side like that.  Thanks, Abby.

 

I'm glad someone is finally onto Meeks, and I'm glad it is someone smart, who just was recruited into the CIA. 

[shapeshifter]

I thought this was the best episode since the show began and that it could not have been without all of the other episodes before it. It was a fantastic view of all the forms of human evil.

I don't see Abby as any worse than any of the others, and by "others" I mean Charlie, Darrow, and the female spy. However, it's interesting that Abby is so angry at Charlie for bringing about the death of Oppy's mistress when he would have never gotten the idea in his head if not for Abby's obsession with making Charlie king of the hill--and then Charlie orchestrated it not to elevate himself, but for what he believed was a noble cause.

Charlie's definitely and ends-justifies-the-means kind of guy, and one whose end is to prevent humans from incinerating the surface of the earth. He may be an atheist, but he's playing God.

Meanwhile Darrow sees himself as the tool of God, but he's either the tool of Satan or just a tool.

[Ina123]

I don't see Abby as any worse than any of the others...

 

She makes everything a soap opera and her story is boring. I just can't stand her meddling into things that are clearly none of her business.

[shapeshifter]

I don't see Abby as any worse than any of the others...

She makes everything a soap opera and her story is boring. I just can't stand her meddling into things that are clearly none of her business.

That is likely how the audience is supposed to feel about her, but for me, her motivations are typical for a housewife of her time when few women had agency over their lives, and, also to me, she illustrates the effects of being cooped up in an insular community for longer than a person would choose. I see her motivations and her situation combining to create the monster that we see in Abby, and I find it oddly satisfying to see it all played out on screen. She and Charlie and Darrow and spy lady all feel self righteous, but they are all monsters, and this was at a time when many Nazis and Japanese Kamikaze pilots also felt self-righteous. I love the way human nature gone wrong is portrayed. Does that make sense? I also can totally relate to people not wanting to see something portrayed on TV and not finding it entertaining. Edited December 9, 2015 by shapeshifter

[peeayebee]

This ep was pretty good, esp the last few minutes, but the Abby character is the weakest part. I understand that she is a bored housewife turning to snooping in order to make her life meaningful, but by the end it became transparent what a plot device she's been. Her story was just not interesting, but she had to become a snoop so she could find out about Oppenheimer's mistress and tell Charlie, and become praying buddies with Darrow so he could play the recording for her so we could find out what Charlie has become. 

 

 

And now after a long absence, their son is finally shown. Honestly, we hadn't seen him or heard about him for so long that I wondered if I'd forgotten that he'd died. I think it was a big mistake for the show not to have Charlie and the boy interact a time or two before this ep because when Charlie was so upset about Abby sending their son away, I didn't buy it.

 

Anyway, I'm glad that Crosley discovered who Brooklyn was. I had wondered about Meeks' hat. It seemed to be highlighted in previous eps. 

[Ina123]

I just remembered the hat was originally Lao's. I hope Crosley doesn't realize that and think the Green guy was telling the truth, that Lao was Brooklyn. Judging by the look on his face I'm thinking he just knows it's Meeks, tho.

[renatae]

I'm in the minority in that I find Abby's arc interesting. I think the actress is compelling and enjoy Abby's mercurial ups and downs. Not everyone in a story can be a world renowned scientist with the fate of mankind in his/her hands.

Looks like Helen's new beau is yet another spy. That was rather loudly telegraphed in the scene where she was loudly complaining she didn't get a ticket to the "festivities." It also looks as though Victor really was the father of the blonde spy.

I really hate my memory sometimes. I keep forgetting things I firmly knew. This time it's why and when Frank decided to "stop the bomb." Grr.

Edited December 10, 2015 by renatae

[ganesh]

She makes everything a soap opera and her story is boring. I just can't stand her meddling into things that are clearly none of her business.

 

She's a busybody when there's 50 million more interesting things to show, including Dr. Winter's work into biological effects of radiation. They could have had her do something more interesting herself. I get that she's cooped up and feeling penned in. That's important to portray. They could have had her more part of this whole "faith" angle. She's not a stupid character, but she's behaving in stupid ways. 

 

How many times have we heard her talking about who she was overhearing on the phone? Given the heightened tensions around here, it's getting farcical that she's getting away with it. 

 

I also don't recall Charlie "letting her think it was her fault." I don't recall anyone telling her to call Jane and pretend to be JRO's wife. 

 

Plus, sending the baby away just came off as petulant. 

 

Not everyone in a story can be a world renowned scientist with the fate of mankind in his/her hands.

 

No, they can't. However, the show is about making the atomic bomb, so I'd like not half of it to be Abby. And that doesn't excuse a fairly static storyline with little development with seemingly disproportionate screentime. The problem is, Frank's wife was like that for a while. Then she got herself on the council and was trying to ask about safety for the scientists. Abby could have been part of that just as well. Enlisting Frank's wife into it, rather than her alone.

There's a lot more going on the hill than just the phones and the bomb. She could have been running a brothel ffs. That at least puts her in some position of power in the context of the times. 

 

I kind of like that Charlie is the one calling for Hiroshima. The reasons are ridiculous because Abby, and I don't really seeing Charlie as that prescient and outward thinking, but I think whomever the scientist at the table was going to be, narratively, it makes sense that they are the deciding factor. So it seems that Abby was just a plot device for that. I don't know how you arrive at that point. It seems like TPTBs needed that and worked backwards from there. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by ganesh

[renatae]

We've seen Abby go from privileged and naive newlywed to having an affair with a woman she later betrays at the request of her husband. Then she blames her husband for the emotional fallout, rightly or wrongly, but hardly just the life of the everyday "housewife." Later on in her job as a telephone operator, she is alternately responsible for tattling the activities of others, and then repentant when she feels her actions have caused the death of Oppie's girlfriend.  At times it is difficult to decide who is more morally bankrupt, she or Charlie. Sometimes she holds the fate of others in her hands, and other times it is unclear whether she is going to be just Darrow's accomplice or also become one of his victims.

 

Her relationship with her husband is always in rather dramatic flux. I certainly understand where some may feel too much time is given to her character, but on the other hand can't think of anything much more boring than making her a mere sidekick of Liza, especially as she isn't a scientist, so there's not much she can add to that story. At least with her as an operator, although her meddling is exasperating to say the least, we are gaining insight into aspects of activities on the hill aside from the actual creation of the bomb.  To me, that fleshes out the story. I can appreciate that others may not care about those aspects, but there are many characters in this series who fulfill similar objectives.

 

I do agree it's rather unbelievable that she's getting away with her snooping. As far as Charlie "letting her think it was her fault," he was the proximal cause of the death of Oppie's girlfriend, and to have let her believe she was responsible for someone's death when she wasn't is just one more huge betrayal on Charlie's part.

Edited December 10, 2015 by renatae

[ganesh]

I wasn't implying she could be a sidekick, but taking the lead on that particular project, and maybe organizing the civilians or occupational safety, good labor conditions, regular health care, etc. 

On paper, I get why you need the character on the show. You can't have it, all bomb science all the time. She just has too much screen time, I'm not seeing much character development proportionally, and the show tends to drag. Clearly, TPTBs can write good parts for the women, but they're just dropping the ball. The one main non scientist woman is essentially a busybody and got turned into a plot device for her husband to make the decision to bomb Hiroshima. Momentous, historical moment, and it should be the scientist to make that call, but the motivation was essentially reduced to the husband having a hissy fit because of his wife. 

I don't recall Charlie letting her believe she was responsible. I thought he was always telling her she needed to move on. He specifically said the miscarriage wasn't because of anything she did, but it "just happened."  I think the writers wanted it both ways there so Charlie could make his speech, and, frankly, the whole thing just wasn't earned. 

[shapeshifter]

I think Abby's amount of screen time is probably proportionately equal to the number of non-scientist civilians who lived and worked "on the hill." However, since she is a composite respresentative of many women and other marginalized participants, we are seeing way more of her than we would of any one person in a similar position if we were flies on the wall observing the comings and goings of the project.

In contrast, I was wondering after this episode if Charlie, Frank, and Oppenheimer are all representatives of Oppenheimer. But then I decided that they (and the many other scientist and spy characters) are more of a collective hive mind that came together to create the bomb (which is still in contrast to Abby representing the many). The opening shot for this episode showed the convergence of the scientists and technicians just as we see each week (and saw this week) at the end of the title sequence, which--for me--reinforces this concept of the many workers being a machine that creates a monster.

[ahpny]

What about at film that led Crosley to conclude, or at least suspect, that Meeks was "Brooklyn?"

 

From what little I know about the real history of how Hiroshima came to be targeted, I thought there was some historical accuracy to certain Los Alamos scientists objecting to its use against a civilian target. Also, I thought there was some input, perhaps merely perfunctory, of them into the discussions about targeting as well. It think the proposal to nuke an uninhabited island was deemed likely to be too unimpressive to the Japanese, who were viewed as fanatical. Also, the US military was worried that the bomb wouldn't work (i.e., go off at all) and they'd look weak and discourage the Japanese from surrendering if that uninhabited island remained "unnuked" after a big threat and promised demonstration.

 

As others have commented, this is the stuff that should be center of the drama, not Abby's angst and annoying meddling.

[ganesh]

Maybe if there were a couple of non scientist civilians featured it would be more palatable. 

 

What about at film that led Crosley to conclude, or at least suspect, that Meeks was "Brooklyn?"

 

Meeks was wearing a Brooklyn Dodgers baseball hat. Given the small sample size of potential spies, it wouldn't be coincidence. 

[pasdetrois]

The Abby Chronicles have ruined this series for me. Do the writers think the audience is too stupid to appreciate the technical story and that they have to give us yet another desperate housewife?

[ganesh]

What bothers me is that when they do the technical stuff, it's actually correct. They've struck a really good balance of not just throwing out a ton of technobabble but still stressing what's important about the work. They're doing a great job of Eliza working on biological effects of radiation. I know you can't have 100% science all the time, and need other stories to balance it, but I'm baffled at their narrative choices for Abby. I think her having a friendship with Darrow was a good call with the whole faith/science angle, but it's just being handled poorly. I tend to think that TPTBs know they need a 'civilian' plot, but just don't know what to do and went soapy. 

[whiporee]

A couple of plot related ideas:

 

1) I think Charlie made a good case, one I hadn't heard before as to why the bomb had to be dropped on populated areas. Because I do think he was right -- the horror of Hiroshima and Nagasaki lessened the likelihood the bombs would be used in warfare again, and if it hadn't been for the memory of those cities and the actual understanding of what nuclear exchange meant, I think it's probable the US and the USSR would have launched at each other over Cuba or East Germany. it was, IMO, the pictures and realities created at those two doomed cities that prevented the superpowers from taking the chance against each other.  Frank thinks the potential is the deterrent, but I think Charile was right; it was the horror. 

 

2) Did Soviet Spy Blowjob Queen really understand what she's asking? That agents of the Soviet Union declare nuclear war on the United States? She can't imagine for a second it won't come out, and when it does, the US would have no choice at all but retaliate with the same level of destruction. There's a reason why her plan wasn't the one the USSR wanted implemented, and the more I think about it, the more reckless and abhorrent her scheme sounds. 

[Clanstarling]

My take is that her overemotional, non-rational change of plan is an indication that the spy who was killed is her actual father (they do mention an adoptive daughter whose gone missing). So she's out for revenge and not thinking of her mission.

[ganesh]

I thought Charlie's monologue was awesome, but I just didn't like that it was motivated by Abby being petulant. The Japanese did think Hirohito was a god. You're not going to get them to just surrender by blockading Tokyo Bay. The Allies either had to fight through the entire population to kill him in the palace or drop the bomb. 

 

Frank is right. It is the deterrent, but you don't get that deterrent without actually dropping the bomb.

[Stratego]

A couple of plot related ideas:

 

1) I think Charlie made a good case, one I hadn't heard before as to why the bomb had to be dropped on populated areas. Because I do think he was right -- the horror of Hiroshima and Nagasaki lessened the likelihood the bombs would be used in warfare again, and if it hadn't been for the memory of those cities and the actual understanding of what nuclear exchange meant, I think it's probable the US and the USSR would have launched at each other over Cuba or East Germany. it was, IMO, the pictures and realities created at those two doomed cities that prevented the superpowers from taking the chance against each other.  Frank thinks the potential is the deterrent, but I think Charile was right; it was the horror. 

 

2) Did Soviet Spy Blowjob Queen really understand what she's asking? That agents of the Soviet Union declare nuclear war on the United States? She can't imagine for a second it won't come out, and when it does, the US would have no choice at all but retaliate with the same level of destruction. There's a reason why her plan wasn't the one the USSR wanted implemented, and the more I think about it, the more reckless and abhorrent her scheme sounds. 

 

 

I thought Charlie's monologue was awesome, but I just didn't like that it was motivated by Abby being petulant. The Japanese did think Hirohito was a god. You're not going to get them to just surrender by blockading Tokyo Bay. The Allies either had to fight through the entire population to kill him in the palace or drop the bomb. 

 

Frank is right. It is the deterrent, but you don't get that deterrent without actually dropping the bomb.

Charlie's speech was "TV scriptwriter's license".  The US was committed to the unconditional surrender by Japan (though it didn't actually happen) and was prepared to invade Japan.  US estimates were about 1,000,000 casualties!  Because of the expected carnage, the US made a deal with the Soviet Union to gain their entry into the war and to use nuclear weapons to maximum effect in order to obtain Japan's surrender. Four major cities were intentionally not bombed with "conventional bombs" in order to determine  the effect of the atomic bomb.  A second bomb (Nagasaki) was used because Japan "didn't surrender fast enough!"

Edited December 13, 2015 by Stratego

[ganesh]

Tokyo was massively firebombed as well, and it didn't have any effect on the will of the Japanese. So there is that factor. 

[Tara Ariano]

A new era is ushered in with the first test of an atomic weapon when Season 2 concludes.

[janeta]

Do we get another season??

[jrlr]

I hope we get another season, but that sure seemed like an ending to me - and I can't believe how sad that ending made me feel.

[shapeshifter]

Silly me, I thought it already was renewed. Anyway, this reviewer is hopeful: bustle.com/articles/130024-will-manhattan-return-for-season-3-the-wgn-series-has-potential-for-more

The finale should get a special effects nomination.

If it does come back, will some of those without blackout glasses be partially blinded?

Liza wearing the turban--although it was stylish at the time--seemed to foretell cancer in her future, since that's what we often associate that style of scarf with today.

I really appreciated how they presented the moral ambiguity of it all.

But Franz, IMO, really was a saint, even though I know the religion of his ancestors likely considers suicide a sin. But he killed himself seemingly to keep himself from killing Meeks.

Edited December 16, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Ina123]

Paul knew it was Meeks. Frank was in the tower with Meeks a long time. Wouldn't Paul call someone to check that Meeks got caught? Yeah, I know. It doesn't help the suspense.

[peeayebee]

The creator of the show wants the show to continue.

[whiporee]

Had Frank come around to Charlie's speech? I almost got the feeling that Charlie's speech about needing to show horror was what Frank was getting at during his monologue to Jim about the bomb -- almost as if Frank knew that Charile would do the exact opposite of what Frank asked him to do, and that was the way Frank wanted it. Frank already knew -- somehow -- that Little Boy was on its way to Japan, so he knew that whatever happened at Trinity didn't really matter in terms of an atomic bomb going off. 

 

The other thing that seemed interesting to me --and I'm not a bomb historian -- was that the implosion bomb was the precursor to hydrogen bombs, while Little Boy was much more limited. Maybe Little Boy was about winning the war, and Fat Man was about winning the future arms race or something. I don't know, but that felt a little odd to me, that all this work was going into a bomb that, for the programs stated goals, was unnecessary. 

 

I also didn't like Darrow just being a Big Bad. I don't see how he could have been behind all Charlie accused him of. 

[shapeshifter]

Paul knew it was Meeks. Frank was in the tower with Meeks a long time. Wouldn't Paul call someone to check that Meeks got caught? Yeah, I know. It doesn't help the suspense.

The idea (Frank's, I think?) was to turn Meeks into a double agent against the Soviets, rather than out him as a traitor. I wonder if this was commonly done during the Cold War.

 

Had Frank come around to Charlie's speech? I almost got the feeling that Charlie's speech about needing to show horror was what Frank was getting at during his monologue to Jim about the bomb -- almost as if Frank knew that Charile would do the exact opposite of what Frank asked him to do, and that was the way Frank wanted it. Frank already knew -- somehow -- that Little Boy was on its way to Japan, so he knew that whatever happened at Trinity didn't really matter in terms of an atomic bomb going off.

That would be a great twist that I hadn't considered. Maybe it was even Frank's plan all along. A season three reveal?

 

 

I also didn't like Darrow just being a Big Bad. I don't see how he could have been behind all Charlie accused him of.

Darrow was more likely someone else's devoted pawn. Although, I even wondered if he killed the guy they were interrogating so he couldn't reveal anything, so who knows? More fodder for a third season!

[ganesh]

I don't think Frank was expecting Charlie to do the opposite. After being so ticked that Darrow sent their friend off to be killed, I'm not sure Frank would be so into killing civilians. Now, he might have thought about what Charlie said and thought that he was right even if he didn't like it. "Necessary evils adding up to a greater good."

 

On the other hand, it was true that Frank knew sabotaging the test would just end up with him dead, for one, and if he lived, he could advocate in the future against using nuclear weapons, since, for the other, he essentially invented implosion and got to see his concept put into reality. The only one who knew implosion would work and went to great lengths to get it to work for real. 

 

I think there's more they could do with the show, and I'm down for an S3. I think they should do a time jump. This ender was great because we know exactly what happens.

 

Abby: yawn. Whatever with your map of California. 

[Clanstarling]

 A third season would be great - but I would be okay if this were the series finale. It had a powerful impact (no pun intended), and was visually stunning. We know what happens next - and I don't know that there's a lot more story to tell that would have the kind of tension these last two seasons had.

 

Abby's "escape" was boring, and made no earthly difference to me, it just felt tacked on to wrap up her seasonal arc (like they did with everyone else).

 

I loved Charlie taking down Darrow - it was unexpected, to me at least.

 

Poor Fritz, it seemed he was always going to be the final sacrifice, from his first inhalation of radioactive material. He was the most unequivocally decent (as in good hearted) character in the show, with Liza as a close second.

Edited December 17, 2015 by clanstarling

[ganesh]

Well, what they could do, since they ended this season on the explosion, is to time jump to 1949 and open with the Soviet explosion. I suppose you could focus the season on building the nuclear weapons complex and the national lab system in the USA. There was a lot of tension in the 50s with the red scare and all that. 

I'd like to see how Frank deals with the repercussions of his bomb being dropped, and Charlie living with himself for the reason they did it. Liza could be involved with the biological effects of radiation still. As a scientific field, it was basically born out of the bombs because that's when there was the first real wealth of data generated. 

Maybe Frank and/or Charlie have a hand in formulating the containment theory against the Soviets and advocate for the nuclear weapons buildup. 

The show would be a soft reboot, and not as tense as S1 and S2, but there's certainly interesting stories to tell. 

[Domestic Assassin]

Here's an interesting interview with the show's creater Sam Shaw, including hints of where he sees the story going from here if WGN decides to renew it.

[Clanstarling]

There are certainly stories worth telling. For me, personally, this was the most interesting one - with the biggest "payoff". But that's not to say I would reject a soft reboot, or find out how the characters are doing in the world. I would be most interested in seeing what happens with Helen and Liza.

Edited December 18, 2015 by clanstarling

[ganesh]

I forgot to include Helen. Her uranium bullet idea for the gun style bomb was also as important as Frank's work on implosion. Right around this time, universities were establishing nuclear engineering departments too. It would be interesting if she was one of the first professors. Since basically, they were training PhDs to go and make bombs. 

There's lots of interesting post WWII, early cold war nuclear pioneers to include in a potential S3. America was also starting to build nuclear power plants. Maybe that's something Frank would take the lead on, instead of weapons. 

[shapeshifter]

It would be worth seeing the impact on the people who called that place home before and after the project.

[wonderwoman]

Does anyone know what happened to Nora, the Mammie Gummer character? I don't recall seeing her in Jupiter, and can't remember what, if anything happened to her in Brooklyn.

[whiporee]

 

Does anyone know what happened to Nora, the Mammie Gummer character? I don't recall seeing her in Jupiter, and can't remember what, if anything happened to her in Brooklyn.

 

I think she just got evacked with the rest of the civilians as Trinity got closer to detonation. 

[wonderwoman]

Thanks. There was a lot going on in the final episode; thought I might have missed something.

[Clanstarling]

It would be worth seeing the impact on the people who called that place home before and after the project.

 

 

I forgot to include Helen. Her uranium bullet idea for the gun style bomb was also as important as Frank's work on implosion. Right around this time, universities were establishing nuclear engineering departments too. It would be interesting if she was one of the first professors. Since basically, they were training PhDs to go and make bombs. 

There's lots of interesting post WWII, early cold war nuclear pioneers to include in a potential S3. America was also starting to build nuclear power plants. Maybe that's something Frank would take the lead on, instead of weapons. 

I just read this piece on Hitfix - I think we might all get some of what we want in season 3 http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/why-manhattan-should-continue-past-tonights-stunning-finale (there are no specific spoilers that I noticed)

[cali1981]

I hope that there is a season 3..  It could split between continued development at Los Alamos and the preparations at Tinian for the actual bomb drops.  A lot of the scientists had second thoughts about nuclear weapons after the bombings and later when the thermonuclear H-bombs came along.  Oppenheimer himself had terrible misgivings and expressed them in a TV interview with the famous "now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds".  If Frank survives (and he better because John Benjamin Hickey is the soul of the show). it will be interesting to see if the show deals with the opposition to atomic weapons.  You have to wonder how far beyond Nagasaki the show will push.

[Rhetorica]

Well crap! I finally had time to binge watch the last four episodes and my DVR only recorded a minute of the finale! And WGN isn't on demand with Time Warner and the finale isn't in their website!