Manhattan - General Discussion

[algebra]

I was just playing with my youngest cat whom I acquired 8 weeks ago in a hypothermic, dehydrated, unconscious state from another farm where I was told "oh yeah he's the runt he's going to die" and I put him in my egg incubator and called him Schrodinger, and for 2 days I was afraid to open the box and see if he was alive or dead or both, but I kept peeking in and giving him Gatorade until he crawled out by himself. So now I call him Lazarus.

And I thought how Darrow put Frank back in the box and now he's like Schrödinger's cat, and we don't know if he's alive or dead or both at the same time.

[shapeshifter]

So now I call him Lazarus.

And I thought how Darrow put Frank back in the box and now he's like Schrödinger's cat, and we don't know if he's alive or dead or both at the same time.

I love this whole post for too many reasons to list, including that you do not now have a cat saddled with the worn out cat name of Schrödinger, but especially because Frank being S's cat in the box is so correct and yet I would have missed it completely if I had not read it here.

[mjc570]

I don't know if this is acceptably off topic, but I just watched the first 2 episodes of the new Amazon series, the Man in the High Castle, and thought it an interesting perspective on Manhattan, since in that series, the Germans did develop the bomb first, exploded it over Washington DC, and thereby won WWII. 

[Tara Ariano]

Liza confronts Darrow; Abby discovers a secret about Oppenheimer.

[gwhh]

I look up game theory.  It was not really taken serious until after WW2.  Was that reference to it during the show, time period correct? 

 

There been absolutely NO evidence from day one!  That the US government tricked the people working on the atomic bomb project into making it because the US government wanted to have the super weapon.  Actually its the other way around.  The egghead types lead by Albert Einstein told the US government to build one before the Nazis did!    

 

 

Edited October 26, 2015 by gwhh

[kay1864]

So Meeks is not just a "24"-style mole, but rather has a (misguided?) motivation to balance the odds. But he thinks he's informing the Soviets, not the Nazis?

And have we seen him playing chess before?

[mjc570]

I don't understand why they're keeping Frank's whereabouts such a big secret. Ok, they thought - and I guess still think - he's a spy, so why not just say so? It's wartime, nobody cares about the civil rights of a suspected spy, even if they admit they were wrong. I miss Frank actually being a character.

Good for Fritz! At least now he won't have to pay for every interaction with Jeannie.

At least they've given us a reason for Meeks. I hope he and his handler are able to become double agents, or can find some way out of their situation. I got the impression the woman (have no idea of her name) wasn't really a committed Nazii, or even a communist.

[algebra]

I look up game theory. It was not really taken serious until after WW2. Was that reference to it during the show, time period correct?

There been absolutely NO evidence from day one! That the US government tricked the people working on the atomic bomb project into making it because the US government wanted to have the super weapon. Actually its the other way around. The egghead types lead by Albert Einstein told the US government to build one before the Nazis did!

We have to assume that Neumann was talking about game theory when he visited Los Alamos in 1943.

The idea that anybody had to be "tricked" into working on the project is ridiculous. You might say Congress had to be "tricked" into funding it, but that would only have been a trick if they hadn't been successful. Perhaps there ere some other projects, boondoggles or scams that received funding but the Manhattan Project actually produced a bomb, it was deployed, it had the desired effect, so where was the deception?

Edited October 28, 2015 by algebra

[Catherinewriter]

I'm having a real problem with this show. I've read about the Manhattan Project and wonder if we're supposed to be matching show's characters with real-life characters. Was Kitty Oppenheimer really such a homophobic bitch.

 

If Hickey isn't back soon, I'm out.  +

[ganesh]

It might not have actually been deception, but more like manipulated motivation. By making them think the Germans were further ahead than they actually were, we'd work harder and get the bomb deployed sooner. 

 

Even then, the German side had the better physicists on average, and the Americans knew them, so it's not like the people at Frank and Charlie's level need the motivation. 

 

This is why I think this episode is a little silly. The actual history doesn't need much additional dramatic license. There *was* a successful spy, and the Soviets got the bomb as a result. It's classical tragedy at its best, dramatically. Just showing the secrecy as the culture of the base is enough. This outlandish psychological experiment with Frank was ok because I like Frank, but really kind of a waste of time in a short season. This is a filler type episode you see in a 22 episode procedural. 

[peeayebee]

 I got the impression the woman (have no idea of her name) wasn't really a committed Nazii, or even a communist.

There's definitely something going on with her. She asked who the man was that was killed, and I thought that she might know or be related to Toby.

 

I like that we learned more about Meeks and why he's doing what he's doing. 

[bentley]

But if Meeks became a spy because his friend (Stan?) got shot, and Stan  got shot because he was trying to escape because they were punishing him for being a spy when he really wasn't...does that mean there never was a spy at all at first? How ironic if the overzealous pursuit of a phantom spy led to the the creation of a real spy.

 

Abby is playing a dangerous game. I think I was holding my breath throughout that whole dinner. 

 

If that smug colonel doesn't get his before this season is over I will be so disappointed.

[ganesh]

They also had the mention of game theory here as well as to why Stalin should have the bomb. While in hindsight we know the game theory worked in practice, would he have thought of that so soon even if Neumann came to talk to them? Maybe, and I can live with it on the show, but that seems a smidge more of a stretch to think a very very very new theory could be applied like that to world politics in the midst of a world war. 

 

I also mentioned in the E2 thread how the race for the bomb was the real drama because the Germans had the best people on it, and most of these people here knew them. So it was cool that Frank actually said, "I know these guys. This isn't a joke."

 

Not for nothing Mrs. Isaacs, but you don't go butting into someone's marriage like that. She didn't deserve the retort. It seems like Abby is itching for something to do. She knows what's going on and is kind of stuck. I'm surprised she doesn't complain more to Charlie about getting a better job. He should be able to pull some strings. 

 

I like how Frank dropped the Princeton on Liza, and was like, "Let's go, babe!"

[shapeshifter]

It seems like Abby is itching for something to do. She knows what's going on and is kind of stuck. I'm surprised she doesn't complain more to Charlie about getting a better job. He should be able to pull some strings. 

But then she'd miss out on a lot of juicy gossip.

 

I like how Frank dropped the Princeton on Liza, and was like, "Let's go, babe!"

That is what I call true love and real romance. He didn't just save her, he broke her out of jail/insane asylum and helped her find life meaningful again. And it looks like she will succeed in doing the same for him.

[ganesh]

She'd miss out on juicy gossip, but if she keeps putting her nose where it doesn't belong, someone with less tact than Mrs. Oppenheimer is going to spill the beans about her "tastes". And I don't think that will go over well. 

[Clanstarling]

They also had the mention of game theory here as well as to why Stalin should have the bomb. While in hindsight we know the game theory worked in practice, would he have thought of that so soon even if Neumann came to talk to them? Maybe, and I can live with it on the show, but that seems a smidge more of a stretch to think a very very very new theory could be applied like that to world politics in the midst of a world war.

I don't think Meeks was using game theory. That was Frank talking in his prison, wasn't it?  It doesn't take mathematical analysis to realize if one country (or person, for that matter) has an all powerful weapon, the other countries are at their mercy and control - which Meeks thinks is something the US lacks. At the time, the Soviet Union was our ally, so he could talk himself into supplying the information before the "good" side killed someone too.

 

The timeline bugged, though. It shows Frank's wife going to see Einstein in May '45. She's clearly just gotten free of New Mexico. May '44 would make more sense - as the July test of the bomb scene went back to NM saying "15 months later." If the chyron was right, then it's over a year since Frank was disappeared.

 

I don't have too much sympathy for someone who meddles in the marriage of someone she clearly barely knows, with information she should not have gotten, and who is the wife of her husband's boss. Unless she was trying to wreck the marriage so somehow Oppenheimer would be thrown off of the project. Maybe it's just me, but what I got from Opp's wife is that she already knows, given her little speech and her steely eyed response. I'll give her a pass on the homophobia because it was 70 years ago when times were different and that opinion was the "correct" opinion (however incorrect it always was). She's hitting below the belt (no pun intended) to shut her up, and put her in her place.

[ganesh]

Frank talked about it in prison, so we've accepted that these guys probably knew of game theory if Neumann made some appearance at that time. 

 

Meeks specifically said "zero sum" which is right from game theory, in reference to why he thinks the Soviets should have the bomb. It seemed like a direct application to me. I don't really care, but it seemed like a little much to me that he'd apply mutually assured destruction so early in nuclear weapons history. These a smart guys, so ok, but it seems like a weird motivation for his spying. 

 

I think Mrs. Opp [heh, get it?] knew too. Either way, Abby, don't admit that you listen in on phone conversations. Not looking good there. 

 

I would like to know who else knows about Abby's affair. 

[molshoop]

 

I would like to know who else knows about Abby's affair.

 

    They were pretty careless, so I think a lot of people would know, and it would make a juicy piece of

gossip.  Yes, people were more homophobic then, but even today most people don't approve

of adultery. 

 

Abby is my least favorite character.  She's really immature and impulsive.

 

I have no idea what she was trying to accomplish hinting at Oppenheimer's affair to his wife.

It's not like she was trying to warn a close friend.  You don't invite your husband's boss and

spouse over for dinner and then try to humiliate them, especially if you are Ms. Pot.

[Clanstarling]

Frank talked about it in prison, so we've accepted that these guys probably knew of game theory if Neumann made some appearance at that time. 

 

Meeks specifically said "zero sum" which is right from game theory, in reference to why he thinks the Soviets should have the bomb. It seemed like a direct application to me. I don't really care, but it seemed like a little much to me that he'd apply mutually assured destruction so early in nuclear weapons history. These a smart guys, so ok, but it seems like a weird motivation for his spying. 

 

I think Mrs. Opp [heh, get it?] knew too. Either way, Abby, don't admit that you listen in on phone conversations. Not looking good there. 

 

I would like to know who else knows about Abby's affair. 

I missed that - I'm so used to hearing it, it didn't occur to me that it was a game theory expression. Thanks.

 

I was interpreting his motives from a more historical, rather than scientific, perspective. That is, I don't believe the balance of powers was a new idea. Dominant powers were always the ones with the most advanced weaponry. The playing fields were leveled when their opponents got their hands on the same - or more advanced - weaponry.  You don't have to be a rocket scientist (heh) to understand that absolute power can be a bad thing in the wrong hands, and that if others have the same power, it's a little less likely to be unleashed with impunity.

Edited October 29, 2015 by clanstarling

[algebra]

So I finally got around to watching this. Oppenheimer used the word "bourgeois" when talking to his mistress and that says "communist" to me. My husband says I'm seeing too much in that. Only people I ever heard use that word were all Commies.

Mrs O reference to Abby being a deviant is nothing unusual for the times. Homosexuality was still illegal in places like England. . Besides Mrs O is smart enough to figure out Abby wouldn't hesitate to bang Oppie if she thought it would advance Charlie's career. So there's that.

What's his name, Callie's boyfriend, is looking very much like an elf. Is there a sequel to Lord of the Rings in the works? Or is he appearing in a Christmas special?

Loved the wardrobe technique of the side zipper in Abby's dress to reveal she's gaining weight. I remember trying to get into dresses with those zippers.

I was making a cat video, entertaining Lazarus with a laser pointer, during Meeks and his new handler's discussion of fellatio/blow jobs and realized I could never put it on Facebook so I had to reshoot it. Poor kitten is now exhausted.

[shapeshifter]

Is there any chance Fritz will come away untarnished when Meeks inevitably is revealed to be a traitor?

[Clanstarling]

Is there any chance Fritz will come away untarnished when Meeks inevitably is revealed to be a traitor?

I hadn't thought of that...of course he won't. That makes me sad. 

[algebra]

I dunno. Fritz survived the plutonium. The real guy that happened to didn't.

[ganesh]

Will Meeks be found out?

We know historically that the spies were successful.

[algebra]

I sure hope the next episode picks up a bit; this Desperate Housewives thing is getting old.

[sjohnson]

Saw the first season on Hulu, then realized this had started the second season. Tried to recall the espionage plot, remembered the real work of Klaus Fuchs, and this spy plot popped up as nonsense. Remembered Frank's near-psychotic belief that the bomb would end the war and therefore he was personally responsible for everyone who dies before it gets used, and realized the show has no perspective on Frank. Remembered the suicide. 

 

You know, you can binge on stuff like this and good acting and rousing melodrama will carry you through. But when you actually try to remember, you have to think about it. It's like blowing on a house of cards. It just seems too tedious to think about any more.

[algebra]

Saw the first season on Hulu, then realized this had started the second season. Tried to recall the espionage plot, remembered the real work of Klaus Fuchs, and this spy plot popped up as nonsense. Remembered Frank's near-psychotic belief that the bomb would end the war and therefore he was personally responsible for everyone who dies before it gets used, and realized the show has no perspective on Frank. Remembered the suicide.

You know, you can binge on stuff like this and good acting and rousing melodrama will carry you through. But when you actually try to remember, you have to think about it. It's like blowing on a house of cards. It just seems too tedious to think about any more.

I agree,Frank had a neurotic belief that the weapon would end the war. Which it did, so he wasn't nuts. It did end the war.

I am still wondering, when Frank was hallucinating, and Liza appeared to him and said "you forgot about the first lie, the one you tell yourself."

What lie is that?

[ganesh]

I think Frank was one of the first people who truly grasped the destructive power of splitting the atom and what it could do, at least on the show. Which makes sense that he figured out implosion. You really don't need that much material for these bombs. It's unreal. 

[algebra]

I guess. Everything I know about yellow cake I learned from Betty Crocker so I wouldn't know how much it takes.

I still don't know what was the lie Frank told himself?

[shapeshifter]

I am still wondering, when Frank was hallucinating, and Liza appeared to him and said "you forgot about the first lie, the one you tell yourself."

What lie is that?

That the bomb is morally justifiable?

[algebra]

Yes, because it would end the war. It would be so awful it would end all wars. That was what they believed, and it's only the people who have come after who questioned if it was necessary, believing "oh the Allies were going to win it anyway." No, they weren't.

When I hear Frank agonizing over the casualty reports, I think about my husband's uncle who was killed on Okinawa April 1945. It was the death toll from that, on both sides plus civilians, which made the brass really worry about an invasion of the main island.

[shapeshifter]

Oppenheimer puts Charlie in a precarious position.

Not sure why "Overlord" is the episode title rather than "The Return."

Again, more soap opera politics, less science, but to be fair, isn't that (AKA $$$) still what drives the success of a lot of science research to this day?

So Abby is responsible for Oppenheimer's return (because of his mistress's suicide), but will Charlie think it's because of what he told General Hardass?

And Eleanor Roosevelt got Frank out.

I'm seeing a quasi feminist, hand-that-rocks-the-cradle-rules-the-world theme in this episode.

[janeta]

Operation Overlord was the code name for the D-Day landing on Normandy.

 

I'm too lazy to dig out my bio of Oppie--did he really have mistresses?

[Broderbits]

Yes, there really was a Jean Tatlock. They broke up before he married Kitty, but then continued the affair during the marriage. She killed herself in January of 1944.

[mjc570]

Wow, I didn't realize how strange Oppenheimer was.  For someone who, literally, held the power of widespread life and death, this portrayal of him is chilling.

 

Speaking of chilling, Abby's turned into quite the monster.  I really like how the show has shown her development (I guess I can't say, "growth") into Lady MacBeth.

I'm so glad Frank is out of jail, and I hope he'll rejoin the action soon.  I laughed when I saw that enormous tub of chili.  Frank and Liza (and Glenn) are by far my favorite characters; everyone else is just kind of a placeholder to me.

[Broderbits]

mjc570 said:

 

Wow, I didn't realize how strange Oppenheimer was.  For someone who, literally, held the power of widespread life and death, this portrayal of him is chilling.

To me, Oppie was one of the most fascinating people in all of American history. I highly recommend the book "American Prometheus".

 

And I totally agree about Abbie being a monster. The way she handled Jean was truly disgusting, worthy of Richard Schiff's recently departed character.

[Stratego]

Not sure why "Overlord" is the episode title rather than "The Return."

Again, more soap opera politics, less science, but to be fair, isn't that (AKA $$$) still what drives the success of a lot of science research to this day?

So Abby is responsible for Oppenheimer's return (because of his mistress's suicide), but will Charlie think it's because of what he told General Hardass?

And Eleanor Roosevelt got Frank out.

I'm seeing a quasi feminist, hand-that-rocks-the-cradle-rules-the-world theme in this episode.

Operation Overlord changed the entire timetable (and focus) of The Manhattan Project.  The focus was "beat the Nazis", get "the bomb" before they use it on us.  Many scientists were Jewish and all anti-Nazi so motivating the entire Manhattan team was based on "beating the Nazis to the bomb".  But events in Europe could (did!) change everything, Germany was defeated with conventional weapons before Trinity.  There were sympathizers with the Soviets concerning nuclear weapons (and other things!).  Internal security challenges would be greater and the motivation to succeed would lessen as it became clear that Germany was being smashed.

[mjc570]

Thanks, Broderbits, I will check that book out.

[peeayebee]

I've never really liked Abbie, and I just don't care for any time the show devotes to her. 

 

I don't see her as a Lady Macbeth. I see her as bored. She needs something to do -- and the show needs something for her to do. But as little as I like her, I hope that something will come of her busy-body-ness than just being the catalyst that got Oppenheimer to return.

 

Now, Frank and Liza, I could watch a show just about them.

 

Oppenheimer as always been a strange duck on this show, but ever since seeing the actor in that airline commercial (Japan Air?), I like him more. Also, I liked the scene with him and Charlie at the field, where he talks about the horror to come. At least in the context of the show I can see his relationship with crazy Jean as being an escape from his conflicted feelings about the bomb.

[algebra]

Operation Overlord changed the entire timetable (and focus) of The Manhattan Project. The focus was "beat the Nazis", get "the bomb" before they use it on us. Many scientists were Jewish and all anti-Nazi so motivating the entire Manhattan team was based on "beating the Nazis to the bomb". But events in Europe could (did!) change everything, Germany was defeated with conventional weapons before Trinity. There were sympathizers with the Soviets concerning nuclear weapons (and other things!). Internal security challenges would be greater and the motivation to succeed would lessen as it became clear that Germany was being smashed.

D-day was hardly a game changer at the time. The Battle of the Bulge was 6 months away. it took almost a full year of intense fighting before it was over in Europe, with not a lot of confidence that the Allies would win. No way anybody was thinking "game over" In June '44.

[algebra]

Abby really annoys me. She has a child, (although I'm starting to wonder if Joey is kept locked in the basement) and a job, and a house to keep, and no modern appliances, she should be too busy to be bored, washing dishes in the sink and hanging laundry on the clothesline. It's not surprising she's unhappy, but she should be too tired to think about it.

[gwhh]

Where did Helen get that gun from? Was its from the MP she was banging last year!

The first V-1 was lunched on June 13 1944. Frank MAY have heard about it from army before that in secret emeny info briefing.  Even through I am a ww 2 history buff big time.  I read about it in detail.  I cant remember how much the Allies new about it before it got lunched on London!   But his wife would have been clueless on the subject! And should have asked. V-1? What's a V-1 ?!

Edited November 11, 2015 by gwhh

[shapeshifter]

I've never really liked Abbie, and I just don't care for any time the show devotes to her. 

 

I don't see her as a Lady Macbeth. I see her as bored. She needs something to do -- and the show needs something for her to do. But as little as I like her, I hope that something will come of her busy-body-ness than just being the catalyst that got Oppenheimer to return.

 

Now, Frank and Liza, I could watch a show just about them.

 

Oppenheimer as always been a strange duck on this show, but ever since seeing the actor in that airline commercial (Japan Air?), I like him more. Also, I liked the scene with him and Charlie at the field, where he talks about the horror to come. At least in the context of the show I can see his relationship with crazy Jean as being an escape from his conflicted feelings about the bomb.

I agree with all of this except Rachel Brosnahan could be the clone of a high school friend from the 60s, so I can't not like her, even thought Abby's personality is nothing like my friend's. Plus, I do see growth in the character.

[Rhetorica]

I know this isn't a documentary, but can we get back to the gadget?

[Ina123]

So Abby is responsible for Oppenheimer's return (because of his mistress's suicide), but will Charlie think it's because of what he told General Hardass?

 

Oppie was already back when he got the call about his mistress. He was grieving when Charlie went to see him and Oppie closed the door. At least, as I recall.

[algebra]

Oppie returned to see the baby I suppose, get his wife to sign divorce papers and tender his resignation. He was just cleaning out his office, that sort of thing.

Abby's phone call prompted the suicide. When I googled the mistress, it seems she was under FBI surveillance because she was a known commie, and the circumstances of her death were suspicious at the time. (Kind of like Marilyn Monroe's, everybody knew she was a threat to the Kennedy's dynastic aspirations, so of course people were suspicious)

So Charlie complaining that the project would tank if the mistress got in the way is one possibility. Anyway, she's dead now.

I was thinking of Abby's boredom because right after I posted how she should be too busy to be bored I remembered I lived like that for two years, almost 40 years ago. I lived in government housing on the Standing Rock reservation, which straddles the border of North and South Dakota.

I had a toddler and was pregnant with #2, I had no dishwasher or clothes dryer, and we used cloth diapers. (The sun bleaches out the poop stains perfectly, they always came off the line snowy white)

I had neither job nor manicured nails nor perfectly coiffed hair.

I don't remember being bored. I certainly don't recall having time to worry about the neighbors' marital issues. I don't remember much about it. I planted a tree behind the house, and I can monitor its progress on google satellite images.

Now I really wonder what Abby has done with Joey.

[kay1864]

1. How did Frank get in so easily?  Wouldn't the colonel have revoked his badge?  He wouldn't have wanted Frank spilling the beans that the Nazis are not in fact on the verge of a gadget, right?

 

2. Did anyone else get the impression that Oppie (while on the phone with Charlie) was getting some "Communist indoctrination" from Jean?  But then she stood up from the back corner of the chair.  Maybe WGN didn't want it to be too overt?

[algebra]

I thought that was Frank's badge Liza wore to get close to Charlie, and got caught. So how would he get back in? The trunk of the car? How did Liza get the car if the elf smuggled her out under a tarp in the back of a jeep?

I can't figure out why Frank called her "Martha" when she got him out of prison.

[ganesh]

I really like how the show has shown her development (I guess I can't say, "growth") into Lady MacBeth.

I've never really liked Abbie, and I just don't care for any time the show devotes to her.

I don't see her as a Lady Macbeth. I see her as bored. She needs something to do -- and the show needs something for her to do.

 

 

Actually, I think when a show writes strong woman = Lady Macbeth, it's kind of lazy and lacks imagination. I'm fine with her having ambition, and she's smart enough to know that the gadget is really, really important, but there's just too much screen time for her and she's not doing much overall. I did like that Charlie was honest about his own limitations and how he just wouldn't be able to do the job. Though, splitting up into admin/science groups was a smart idea. I said last week that Abby needs something to do. I'm not calling OOC because if you know what she knows, yeah, you'd be antsy. But she's not suddenly going to learn nuclear physics. Maybe she'll set up an eyes and ears network of the women to feed intel to Charlie. That's fine. I don't need that to be the dominant component to the show, however. 

 

I don't have a problem with devoting time to Oppenheimer and his importance to the project. I like the actor's portrayal of him as borderline nuts. I get the feeling Oppenheimer actually knows everything that's going to happen and can't deal. Which is totally fine. It should really be more compelling than it is, however. I think the show made a good choice *not* having him be a central figure, and more out there.

 

I know this isn't a documentary, but can we get back to the gadget?

 

Really. I get that there's more to it than just making the bomb, but to the show's credit, they have been able to make the science scenes interesting. Frank's whole plot last year to prove implosion was really really good.

 

I don't know how much is known about the whole project here, but it looks like Helen is going to make Little Boy because she mentioned the problems with Thin Man, in terms of uranium enrichment, and how the gun assembly can work. Little Boy was first to be dropped, and it was never tested. If this is the case on the show, then I want to be seeing much much much more Helen than Abby. Like much of the Manhattan Project, this is something that doesn't need additional drama. It should be riveting in and of itself if you portray it right. And they did with implosion.

 

(Last night, I was in one of the rooms where Seaborg literally lived, and only a stone's throw from the building where he extracted those first micrograms of plutonium that Frank got a hold of last season.)

[pasdetrois]

I absolutely hate the Abby-as-Nancy-Drew plot. There's not enough depth to the character or the actress to justify this much attention on her. I'd rather see more of Helen. Between Abby and Frank's bizarre prison episode, this series has been ruined for me.