The Not So Merry...Supporting Cast

[quarks]

I think the buying out the whole restaurant would have been fine if it had not immediately been preceded by Iris telling us that it was almost impossible to get reservations there and she and Eddie had been trying for months. So the image is of people waiting for months to get into this restaurant, followed immediately by Ray announcing that he had bought out the entire restaurant for the evening - cancelling plans that Iris said people had been making for months. Followed immediately by shots of Barry, Iris and Eddie for once united in looking uncomfortable, and Felicity making a rare criticism of Ray.

[kismet]

Honestly, I don't know what I'm supposed to feel about Ray. I'm supposed to love him because according them he's AWESOME!! But then they write him in a way that makes him just so unlikable. But then they give him great moments with Cisco & OQ, that I see some of shimmers of possible brilliance. He's hot & cold as a character for me. To quote OQ from a few episodes back he appears "unstable". He just ping pongs between obsessive & conniving to supposedly charming & adorkable. How does someone go from I trust you completely in 315/6 to being hypocritical & I can't trust you at all in 317 to I love you in 318? I know they tried to explain it using capital vs. non-capital letters in 319, but Im not buying it. I can't ever get a feel for what his character is supposed to be. There is no authenticity or honesty in how it plays out on my screen. I feel like BR does the best he can with the material. But he either oversells some moments (he really does need to calm his eye intensity down) or completely undersells genuine moments.

Edited April 18, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

How does someone go from I trust you completely in 315/6 to being hypocritical & I can't trust you at all in 317 to I love you in 318? I know they tried to explain it using capital vs. non-capital letters in 319, but Im not buying it. I can't ever get a feel for what his character is supposed to be.

 

Over in the Relationship thread I went back and broke down his interaction with Felicity (to answer comment about tone) but as I was reviewing all his episodes and reminding myself the specifics of their scenes it struck me that for all that we've been stuck Palmer Island getting what has felt like A LOT of Ray, we haven't had much depth from him.  That's been limited to his conversation with Felicity explaining why he ran after the kiss - Anna's death.  Otherwise the same problem we've had with Felicity has been happening with Palmer.  We don't get into what motivates their actions.    We don't get to see Felicity going home and falling apart after Oliver breaks her heart or see her having these quiet dreams, hell you had to have watched The Flash to even know she had them and then it wasn't until Ray tried to explain their kiss that we found out all this time Felicity though Oliver regretted kissing her. 

 

We haven't been allowed into her thought process and emotional reasoning beyond obvious moments of grief.   The same thing happened with Ray.   If he hadn't come with the name would we have even suspected he was gong to be a good guy?  Lots of outward bubble and charm, but behind closed doors serious looks while he dug through mysterious computer plans.   We were finally told in show about Anna but we also needed to know what made him act like a man that didn't understand boundaries.  We needed to see what made him tick so we weren't left to jump to the worst conclusion.  They didn't flesh him out enough. 

 

We know that Oliver is scarred and broken after his time on the island.  We understand why he makes crappy choices and tries to make decisions for others.  And while we don't always agree, we understand and sympathize.  We weren't allowed to know Ray beyond what could be seen on the surface.  Even Anna is something a stranger could have found out about in a newspaper clipping.   Loss like that is a motivator but people react so differently to such a loss and on a show where Rebecca's death turned Malcolm evil, and Tommy's death put Laurel into a anger/drug/guilt spiral ...well too many options to just assume where Ray's head was. 

[kismet]

We haven't been allowed into her thought process and emotional reasoning beyond obvious moments of grief.   The same thing happened with Ray.   If he hadn't come with the name would we have even suspected he was gong to be a good guy?  Lots of outward bubble and charm, but behind closed doors serious looks while he dug through mysterious computer plans.   We were finally told in show about Anna but we also needed to know what made him act like a man that didn't understand boundaries.  We needed to see what made him tick so we weren't left to jump to the worst conclusion.  They didn't flesh him out enough. 

 

We know that Oliver is scarred and broken after his time on the island.  We understand why he makes crappy choices and tries to make decisions for others.  And while we don't always agree, we understand and sympathize.  We weren't allowed to know Ray beyond what could be seen on the surface.  Even Anna is something a stranger could have found out about in a newspaper clipping.   Loss like that is a motivator but people react so differently to such a loss and on a show where Rebecca's death turned Malcolm evil, and Tommy's death put Laurel into a anger/drug/guilt spiral ...well too many options to just assume where Ray's head was. 

Agree with your post!  This bolded part is so accurate. I knew that about Oliver after the Pilot. It only took 1-2 episodes to witness Malcolm, Laurel and even Barry's motivations. For all the time spent on Palmer Island, I feel like I should know him better. I should have some great souvenir - instead I feel like I'm stuck holding a pencil wondering whats gonna be left as a memory when it runs out after sharpening it?

[kismet]

Can I just make a shout-out to the Fern?? Because I do feel like its a supporting character at this point. I know it started as a silly inside joke amongst the fandom that then spread to MG & the show. But I just love how something that innocent & fun can take on a life of its own. Those are sometimes the best accidental goldmines (similar to ERB's casting). MG & the fandom's interactions about the Fern are hysterical! In the dark times that Arrow loves to live in, its nice to have something like the fern to bring a little levity & symbolism to the show, without needing to wham us over the head with an anvil. RIP fern container.... Fern, I hope somebody replants you real soon & lets you blossom under low light. Because I know if OQ can survive the fall, so can you! Somebody call Tatsu quick with her miracle teas.

 

Sidenote - I'd laugh so hard if someone from the prop dept places a fern anywhere in view in NP as a reminder. Or if it miraculously reappears during a critical finale moment at some random/inopportune time.

[statsgirl]

I think the buying out the whole restaurant would have been fine if it had not immediately been preceded by Iris telling us that it was almost impossible to get reservations there and she and Eddie had been trying for months. So the image is of people waiting for months to get into this restaurant, followed immediately by Ray announcing that he had bought out the entire restaurant for the evening - cancelling plans that Iris said people had been making for months. Followed immediately by shots of Barry, Iris and Eddie for once united in looking uncomfortable, and Felicity making a rare criticism of Ray.

I think that, like with Laurel, how the writers see the characters is not the same way as many viewers do.  They think they are writing Ray as charming and sweet (think Cary Grant in Bringing Up Baby) and we're seeing him as someone being a jerk.

 

Felicity's criticism also serves to set up the break-up which is hopefully coming soon to a screen near you.

 

Maybe he likes to know and specialize in more than one subject? such that credentials isn't  the only thing he is after?, in this information/digital age a lot of things have become connected,  one subject can be dependent on or lead to another. If you have the time and can afford it I don't see why not, learning is a lifelong process anyway, whether in a classroom setting or not. Even  working people keep on learning. Jmo. 

It's not the learning that doesn't strike true, it's the taking official credentials.  If you want to learn something new and you've already got one PhD, why jump through the bureaucratic hoops, essays and exams that are graded and residency requirements again? Sit in on courses on your own, join a prof's research group, sign up for MOOCs, join a FB group for the subject area, write an article for publication.  Most people I know can barely wait till their first PhD is done and they can finally leave evaluations behind forever..

 

I was watching my husband go through applications to the MA program he taught in one day and I asked him about why there was check for previous degrees. He explained that if they already had one MA, they were still in the running but with two already, the applicant was usually rejected because if you apply for a third, they figure you're someone who is playing at being a student instead of growing up.

[quarks]

For what it's worth, I have met a couple of people with two PhDs. I agree it's rare, though, and those people are in academia, not business, and not, as far as I know, building flying robot suits.

 

Though possibly they should.

[kismet]

For what its worth, I work in the medical field. So its not uncommon to observe names followed by more credentials than you can fit on the name badge. In my hospital, having an MD (doctorate of medicine) along with another masters degree or PhD (doctorate of philosophy) is pretty common. Likewise, it is also common that the other health professionals in my hospital to also have multiple graduate degrees &/or specialization/certifications. I have met people that have had multiple PhDs, but I think there was some overlap in their concentrations if I remember correctly, so they were able to use a lot of the same core course work. But they still had to do a lot of additional course work per discipline, contact hours, research, multiple dissertations & defenses. So the process was long and hard. My friend got her PhD in chemistry and that took nearly 7+ years. So if his degrees are technical & science based I can imagine he's been in school for a long time even if he was a genius & got started at a younger age.

[TrueMyth]

I would have liked to see a friendship develop between Ray and Felicity instead of always having the romance vibe underneath.  It would have been difficult because we knew they were likely working the triangle from the minute he was introduced... however, if they were written as friends first, it would have allowed Felicity to be more open about her feelings for Oliver (even if couched as "my friend") or Ray talking about his drive to help the city.  It would have been great to learn about Anna without the baggage of the kiss weighing down the scene.  I would like to know how he earned/got his money and what his connection to Starling City really is.  Those are the things that would potentially make me interested in watching his spin-off.

 

Given how late they held off on the actual 'dating' after the kiss, they could very well have eliminated the "business dinner"/pretty woman crap earlier in the season and built a true friendship.  Such a relationship would also allow for him to potentially seek her out for business reasons and interact/interrupt Team Arrow happenings, letting him interact with other characters.  I'd love for Oliver, at one of his more angsty times this season, to have had the chance to slam the "Star City" idea.  Something along the lines of dealing with the city we have, instead of the city we want to have.

 

That's the real interesting dichotomy I see between Ray and Oliver: Ray is an unapologetic optimist, while many would call Oliver a pessimist and I think he would call himself a realist.  I can see Felicity being pulled between the two extremes and wrestling with herself as to how she sees the world.  I think Felicity is a realist, too, though she definitely tends towards optimism over pessimism. 

 

In later seasons X-files episodes, they liked to introduce Mulder or Scully to characters who were foils of their own extremes, causing Mulder to fall back and parrot Scully's rationalism, or Scully to bring up extreme possibilities.  Felicity has been in darker than usual mind-sets with Ray, but they did not really use him as a foil to her.  Because they never really played off of each other, there were no sparks and nothing very deep about either character was revealed.

[tv echo]

I think that, like with Laurel, how the writers see the characters is not the same way as many viewers do.  They think they are writing Ray as charming and sweet (think Cary Grant in Bringing Up Baby) and we're seeing him as someone being a jerk.

That's a good comparison.  With Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Roy, we got to know their characters through their own actions and words.  But with Ray and Laurel, we often have other characters describing them (as how we're supposed to see them), but what they describe is not always consistent with how these characters act.  So there's this disconnect.  

Edited April 19, 2015 by tv echo

[Password]

I think episode 19 was the first episode all series where I felt like what the EPs tell me about Ray (he's just like Felicity) was actually true. It took 19 episodes for it to happen! I don't know if it's because he finally had someone to play off well (Oliver and Digg) or because the writers finally hit the right note of nerdy, good looking, well meaning but naive rich boy. I could actually see how much Felicity and Ray were on the same wavelength intellectually. Emotionally...poor guy.

In particular I liked his first scene with Felicity which seemed reminiscent of the final Olicity scene in season 2 where Felicity tried to get a denial out of Oliver's ILY but he smiled at her. In the same way Ray walked his ILY back, Felicity could've refuted or encouraged him that she did love him, but she just smiled.

But like the author at itsjustaboutwrite.com said, keeping Ray and Felicity marooned on Palmer island made their interactions come across as weird and creepy. So seeing Oliver and Digg have my reactions to Ray's quirks was a refreshing change of pace.

[TanyaKay]

My brother-in-law has two PhDs and two post docs and where he works, almost everyone has at least one PhD and two post docs.

He works in hardware R&D but he never pinged anyone's phone, I just thought I should clarify that.

[statsgirl]

That's kind of a sad statement on our times.  I remember when a post-doc was rare because you just went right into your permanent academic tenure-track position or research team, when there was money to hire everyone who got a PhD.

 

I was wondering what they should have done about Ray.  I think most people agree that there was too much time with him and Felicity on Palmer Island and it really hurt the popularity of both characters.

 

On the other hand I can see why the EPs wanted to Brandon Routh aka Superman on the show from the start of the season. Short of introducing him at the start and then having him disappear from the screen for the next 15 episodes,  I can't think of any solution to the problem, other than a shortened season as Robert Dougherty afor one has suggested.  Any ideas?

[BkWurm1]

They just needed to come up with reasons why he would have interacted earlier with the main cast.  Drag Oliver in to sign documents.  Try to poach Diggle for security.  Hire Roy to work in the mail room.  Let Ray wind down at Verdant occasionally.  Have Felicity and Laurel meet at Palmer Tech before going to lunch and Ray bring up ideas about rebranding the city.  Then once the cast knew him, there could be more interacting. 

 

Maybe Ray could have taken boxing lessons at Wildcat's Gym too.

 

Perhaps Roy or Oliver as themselves could have interrupted Ray getting mugged.  Or Ray could have had random business in Corto Maltese completely separate from what the rest of them were doing - maybe looking at the mine he wanted to buy - and Oliver, Dig and Roy could have tagged along.  (Felicity too)

 

The other thing they could have done was finished his suit earlier but let it be only ready for the testing phase.  Ray is a scientist.  Wouldn't he want to really put it through it's paces well before he actually used it?  Quentin could be getting outrageous calls about a flying man that he could scoff about between worrying about Sara.  Toss in a few nut jobs that claimed Malcolm Merlyn was alive.  (Cause SOMEONE had to have seen him!!!!)

 

If they needed to keep him grounded during the Brick phase he could have simply been out of town and completely unaware or the suit was at that time off line.  It wouldn't have been hard to come up with justification to still hit their required plot points. 

 

IMO all they needed to do was integrate him into the cast and a lot of the issues would have vanished.  

Edited April 20, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Integrating Ray into the main cast sooner would have been better for everyone. BkWurm1 listed many believable/plausible ways. I can think of over 100 other ways. Just like probably ever poster on this forum, reading back through the threads, I'm sure we could find some examples. Honestly, the one I wanted the most was Diggle helping to train Ray in basic fighting (he wouldn't even have to have known about the suit). Ray wanting to learn how to defend himself after what happened to Anna would have been logical. As Felicity's friend and an unemployed ex head of security/armed forces guy he would have been the perfect person to make some extra cash training Ray. It also would have helped to show F/D friendship is strong & given Diggle more of his mentor cred.

 

But that would have knocked at 2 big egos (Ray's & the EP/Writers'). Ray was so egotistical that he thought that his tech (which he couldn't even finish w/o help) was the only thing that mattered. And the writers/EPs thought that the story they were giving us about Ray had no problems and was EPIC. That was the biggest flaw in their story-telling regarding Ray. Rather then listening to criticism & trying to modify their character, they disregarded a lot of professional & fan criticism as non-important & blinded by other preferences. In many ways this season, when I saw Ray I felt like I was seeing the manifestation of the writers/EPs. His presence on the screen was fulfilling every fantasy & dream they had. So I feel like Ray was not even written as Ray for most of the season, but was a proxy for the writers/EPs.

[KenyaJ]

Integrating Ray into the main cast sooner would have been better for everyone. BkWurm1 listed many believable/plausible ways. I can think of over 100 other ways.

 

When they announced Ray/"Daniel," as both a personal and business rival to Oliver, I was most excited about the idea of Oliver and Ray battling it out for QC. I know Oliver wasn't a great CEO, but considering both Robert and Moira are dead, I would absolutely buy that he cared enough about his family's legacy to not want to see the company in someone else's control. I really wish they'd gone with that story not only because it could've helped integrate Ray, but also because I miss Oliver having a job and something to concentrate on other than being the Arrow.

[statsgirl]

I agree that there were a lot of ways they could have integrated Ray into the general cast (going to Laurel for some legal work, maybe to set up a committee to protect The Glades, was my favorite), but I'm still unsure whether they should have.

 

But given that the big storyline this season was Malcolm/Ra's, I'm still undecided whether they should have integrated Ray throughout the season or just set the character up at the beginning and then had him spend most of the season in his main branch instead of Starling City (I assumed that Palmer Tech has to have at least one other location), returning occasionally for Felicity's help on the suit and then finally when he's needed instead of hanging around all season with nothing more to do than be Felicity's love interest, since they dropped the idea of being Oliver's business rival almost as soon as it came up.  (I can understand that decision though, there really was no room in Oliver's calendar for that.)

 

Then they could have brought in a comic-type figure to run the Starling City location and had Felicity butt heads with him over what she was doing, and her budgets, and the hours she was taking off.  It could come been good for some comedy in this depressing season..

[BkWurm1]

Then they could have brought in a comic-type figure to run the Starling City location and had Felicity butt heads with him over what she was doing, and her budgets, and the hours she was taking off.  It could come been good for some comedy in this depressing season..

 

But we would have run into the same tone problem of Felicity coming off highly emotional circumstances only to be faced with some out of step joker and worse yet, she'd be spending all her time with an intentionally meaningless character. 

 

I think the bigger season problem is they killed Sara too soon.  They needed to establish some characters and relationships before they blew everything up.   A lot of this has been said before.  Sara could be training Laurel 'cause it's a better alternative to drinking.   (They could even have been going to Wildcat's Gym and then it would have made some sense for Laurel to tell him Sara was dead and it would have made sense for him to help continue what she was doing)  It would have been nice to have longer with Oliver happy but if they insisted on still blowing up the first date, they could have and that could have been reason enough for her to take the job with Palmer or they could have let them have more time anticipating the date where we would see their dynamic and she could have taken the job because Palmer was offering her ridiculous amounts of money and Oliver urged her to do it. 

 

We could have started with Roy remembering he killed someone without the silly drama of thinking he killed Sara.   Him finding out and reeling would have been enough, especially if there was concern he'd go dark or something.   And it would have brought in Wildcat to the story with his vigilante past right away so when Sara DOES die, again it makes sense why Laurel would think she could do something about it. 

 

I could keep going on but it's kind of pointless now.  They could have done so much better but they wanted to stack on the pain and go for the shock factor and logic, motivation and character development be damned. 

[nksarmi]

Ugh - ok, I understand why the writers like JB and want to keep Malcolm around, but has everyone on this damn show forgotten that Malcolm had Thea kill Sara????

 

I do NOT care if Malcolm loves Thea - he should not be the one taking care of her right now.  I also HATE the fact that is appears Malcolm will see no justice for his actions from season one or killing Sara.  I hate this.  It's bad enough that they killed Sara, but now her murderer will walk with zero consequence.  Hell - he is actually getting payoff because it worked out just the way he wanted. He said flat out that he is free, his blood debt has been erased, and while I'm sure he didn't want Thea to die and get LP'd, he still gets to spend his time with her.  This utterly ridiculous plan actually worked! 

 

The more people just love on this episode because of olicity sex, the more I just can't help but think how much I hate the storytelling and plot of this season. I still like the characters well enough to give season four a chance, but ugh I liked Ray and Laurel's "hero journeys" better than this Ra's prophesy and LoA crap.

 

Do you realize that we will likely go through an entire season of Arrow without the main villains being brought to justice? Not a spoiler - just an impression.  Malcolm seems to be welcome now and like I said, it looks like everything is going to work out for him just fine.  While I can believe the show might take out Ra's - I don't believe they will take out the LoA so no good done there. What about this season involves heroes being heroes?

 

Brick got a bunch of bad guys out of prison early on that I assume have not been recaptured.

Brick himself is behind bars, but Malcolm - the bad guy - did that, not the heroes.

I think Oliver might have defeated the guy with his mouth sewn shut, maybe?  Can't remember at this point.

I think Laurel got to defeat someone as BC - I'm the justice you can't run from?

And Ray defeated the metahuman and took him to Star Labs.

 

What else do we have?  What other good has Oliver done this season?  Ugh.

[statsgirl]

I think killing off Sara at all was the worst example of short term gain, long term pain that this show has done, although killing Moira comes close.

 

After The Fallen, I'm willing to keep Malcolm on for JB's acting, which knocked the MM scenes out of the park.  I agree that Malcolm had Thea kill Sara, and I still have no idea why in terms of plot wth is happening but at least it's better than the Ra's Heir plot, and JB is a much better actor.

 

 

Do you realize that we will likely go through an entire season of Arrow without the main villains being brought to justice? Not a spoiler - just an impression.  Malcolm seems to be welcome now and like I said, it looks like everything is going to work out for him just fine.  While I can believe the show might take out Ra's - I don't believe they will take out the LoA so no good done there. What about this season involves heroes being heroes?

To be fair, this is the second time for Malcolm since he survived the fight with Oliver in s1.

 

I guess that's the problem with the Big Bad being too big -- they can't kill him off.  Or her, if it had turned out to be Amanda Waller, making quarks happy, she still was too big in the DC universe for real justice.

 

But we would have run into the same tone problem of Felicity coming off highly emotional circumstances only to be faced with some out of step joker and worse yet, she'd be spending all her time with an intentionally meaningless character.

But this would be a meaningless and irrelevant character that she would run into occasionally, not someone that she was trying to work up some romantic chemistry with.  Someone who looked like Michael Emerson maybe, and who could have started out really bureaucratic and gradually become more supportive of Felicity's balancing act as the season progressed. They could put it in during episodes where she wasn't crying and upset (and there were some of those).  I see it like the grave digger's scene in Hamlet, or the guard in Macbeth, moments of comedy amongst the tragedy.

 

And because it would be a small recurring role, Felicity wouldn't have been stuck on Palmer Island and away from the lair all season.

[nksarmi]

I don't know - I at least felt like they tried to bring Merlyn to justice in the first season and then in the second season by putting Moira on trial, I felt like the show was trying to show real consequences for bad actions.  Plus, there were so many minor bad guys they were fighting and winning against that it even worked for me that they didn't defeat Slade until the last episode of season two.

 

But this season, I just don't feel like there is anything heroic going on (Flash has tons of it, but not Arrow). They are at least trying to be heroic in the flashbacks, but the things is - they just failed!  Ugh. 

 

And I think what really bugs me about it all is that Malcolm won.  I just can't get past this - he won.  His insane plan to kill Sara worked.  If they don't take that away from him, I don't care how good an actor JB is, I won't be able to enjoy a single moment he is on my television.

 

I am ok if the villain gets away, but their plan/victory is at least spoiled.  So if we end this season with Thea saying she wants nothing to do with Malcolm, the cops realizing he is alive and putting him on some "most wanted" list, and all of his assets being stolen while the LoA is again after him (which won't happen unless Nyssa takes over) - then ok, sure, fine he can live as long as I know he still "lost."  But if we end this season with him and Thea being close, the fact that he is alive not being exposed, him still having hidden assets, and being free of the LoA than all I will want is for Nyssa to slit his throat or for Laurel to put a bullet in him each and every time I see him.

[BkWurm1]

But this would be a meaningless and irrelevant character that she would run into occasionally, not someone that she was trying to work up some romantic chemistry with.  Someone who looked like Michael Emerson maybe, and who could have started out really bureaucratic and gradually become more supportive of Felicity's balancing act as the season progressed. They could put it in during episodes where she wasn't crying and upset (and there were some of those).  I see it like the grave digger's scene in Hamlet, or the guard in Macbeth, moments of comedy amongst the tragedy.

 

And because it would be a small recurring role, Felicity wouldn't have been stuck on Palmer Island and away from the lair all season.

 

I'm not sure getting off of Palmer Island but exchanging it for the island of the unknown is much better.  Yes, the good news would be no forced romance, but I want Felicity's interactions to matter and unless the random character became useful to the team down the line or even got in the way, then all her little interactions would become meaningless and they'd be pushing Felicity to a purposeless storyline. 

 

We could just remove the forced romance between her and Palmer and let him be the one that gradually became more supportive.  I think Palmer was their attempt to have that comedic contrast but those non tragic episodes where he had a chance of actually being funny were too few and far between.   

[statsgirl]

She wouldn't have been on any island though. There would have been some scenes of troubles at work but most of the time she would have been working with TA because the comic character would only have been in three or four episodes.  It was the building up of the character of Ray Palmer through the season (I guess they had to use BR since they were paying him for 18 episodes) without advancing his ATOM storyline that I thought was the problem. They should have had him in the first two episodes to set up Felicity working at QC/PT, two episodes of her working on his suit, and then move to the 6 episodes of of "now it flies!  Oops" to the finale.

 

Like much of the season itself, too many of Ray's episodes were filler for the character.

[tv echo]

CR on Mama Smoak...

I love playing Donna, aka Momma Smoak. I adore Emily Bett Rickards who plays my daughter and honestly, I adore everyone on Arrow. The executive producers, Greg, Marc and Andrew, are hands-on and passionate about the show and it sets a tone for everyone. The writers have given me the rainbow to play with this character and I relish every scene I get to do. Donna Smoak is funny, fiercely protective, loyal, over-the-top, yet grounded. She’s flirty, sexy, uninhibited, vulnerable, and yet one of the strongest-willed women I’ve ever played.

Charlotte Ross in 'Arrow' & Making 'Best Friends' with Homeless Pets
APRIL 24, 2015 – 12:17 PM
http://parade.com/392754/stephaniestephens/charlotte-ross-in-arrow-making-best-friends-with-homeless-pets/

Edited April 26, 2015 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

Say what you will about this season, but they hit it out of the park with Charlotte Ross and Donna Smoak.  She's exactly what I imagined once they mentioned a cocktail waitress from Vegas and yet sooooo much more.  

[olicityfan25]

She is awesome! Best casting in a while for the show.

[Password]

It's funny I've pretty much mellowed in my dislike for Ray since episode 19.

And then I read the anti ray palmer tag on tumblr and it all comes back to me...shouldn't have gone on there. I was doing so well.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Password

[statsgirl]

.Charlotte Ross in 'Arrow' & Making 'Best Friends' with Homeless Pets

http://parade.com/392754/stephaniestephens/charlotte-ross-in-arrow-making-best-friends-with-homeless-pets/

That's now the third cast member promoting adopting pets from shelters, which is awesome.  David Ramsey did that photo with the tiny black kitten and EBR's Ophelia was a rescue too.

 

She talks about fostering in the interview, which is a good way for people to get to know pet ownership if they're not sure about having a pet or if they can't commit for the long terms of 10+ (dogs) - 20 (cats) years.

Edited April 27, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

Which is why, unlike everyone else, as a villain Ra's frightens me more than any of the previous ones. Malcolm and Slade were all about revenge, and physical pain... Ra's, like the second Count Vertigo, is all about cunning, mental & emotional pain leading to total breakdown, before he molds them back up to what he thinks is the right image. he is a man, similar to malcolm but not fully, driven by ideology in which he believes in 100%. combine that with his confident and overall aloftness (for lack of a better term that i can think of)... people like him? those are the truly dangerous villains.

I totally get how Ras is truly dangerous. His laid-back bravado can be very menancing in some ways, because you never know what will trigger him. Its not easy to indentify his weaknesses to utilize them to bring him down. He's not a man you can easily defeat, he's barely a man anymore. He is ideology, myth & legend all rolled up as a great evil & yet also a great deliverer of justice. How can you defeat that which you cannot easily attack? But I think where the story has let him down this season is that the pacing has been so slow and redundant at times. I get that his style of justice may be seen as evil and some of his beliefs archaic, but can we move a little quicker to the consequences of the plans he set in motion. The acting has also been a little inconsistent, but I wonder if that had more to do with the timelines of the scripting. Perhaps it was taking the writers too long to figure out how they would get from A to Z, so the actor sorta played it somewhere in the middle which is not always effective for the long-game evil genious menancing, as a result some of his actions come off a little on the dumb side.

 

I get where they were going with Ras and in some episodes its spot on brillance like the menancing little smirk at the end of 320, but other times Im left wanting more from this great mythical villain. And I tend to feel that the writing & pacing of the story arcs is where most of those problems originate from.

[tarotx]

Ras is just too big for season 3 of Arrow. Oliver isn't important enough tbh...

[calliope1975]

My problem with Ra's (besides that I'm not impressed with MN's portrayal) is that he's a series villain, not a season. I would much rather have had brief glimpses or Ra's pulling strings behind the scenes, and then gearing up for war or purification or whatever towards the series end. Also, this plan of Ra's doesn't make him seem smart, it makes him seem stupid which he's not. I've yet to hear an actual, logical reason for wanting Oliver to be his heir. Ra's is a brilliant strategist, but I'm just seeing a guy who's mad someone took his ball and went home, so he's going to burn down the neighborhood to find another one. Those are not the actions of a guy who's a mythical legend who has survived for hundreds of years. 

 

I'd even accept if they played it that he'd grown erratic over these past years and is making irrational decisions, but nope. 

[nksarmi]

So I've read a lot of comments about how Arrow is hard on women or likes to kill off women and I'm not sure I entirely see it. I think its been pretty even actually.  If we count all we've been shown so far for major/semi-major characters, I think it breaks down like this...

 

Season 1: Robert (I count him because he is Oliver's dad and as far as I'm concerned Thea's dad) and Shadow's dad in flashbacks.  Also Frisk if we count "major" villains.  Then we have Tommy in present day. 

 

Season 2: Shadow in flashbacks as well as Ivo.  Moira, Sebastian, and Isabel (has this been confirmed?) in the present. There was also Quentin's partner in season two if we want to count him.

 

Season 3: Sara in the present and the pending death of Akio in the flashbacks.  Oh and maybe Deadshot if we believe he is really dead.

 

So yea, I realize that in connection to Oliver, it might seem like the women were more important but I think it's rather even.....Robert/Moira (parents), Tommy/Sara (life long friend), and Shadow's dad/Shadow (mentor).  Just because Oliver had to sleep with every woman he wasn't related to for two seasons doesn't mean that Tommy was necessarily more important than Sara or that Shadow's dad (who saved his life more than once) mattered more than Shadow herself.

 

I think many of the deaths have been needless and might have hurt the story more than helped it, but I don't think Arrow is picking on women.

Edited April 30, 2015 by nksarmi

[Sakura12]

For me it's the way most of the women died, not that they killed more women. All the women died on their knees with their hands behind their backs (Shado, Moria, Isabel) or without putting up a fight (Sara). 

 

While the men got to choose their deaths (Robert, Ivo), or died doing something heroic (Tommy, Yao Fei, Sebastian). 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Sakura12

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that it's more about how the women are treated compared to the men.  Robert killed himself so that his son would have a chance at survival.  Tommy died heroically trying to save Laurel.  Don't remember how the other men died, though.

 

Now the women: Moira was run through with a sword while her hands were tied behind her back.  Sara was shot full of arrows, thrown on a dumpster, and then her body was stuffed in a freezer.  Thea was brainwashed with magical herbs and forced to unknowingly murder someone.  Isabel had her neck snapped by Nyssa.  Shado was on her knees with her hands behind her back when she was shot in the head.

[nksarmi]

For me it's the way most of the women died, not that they killed more women. All the women died on their knees with their hands behind their backs (Shado, Moria, Isabel) or without putting up a fight (Sara). 

 

While the men got to choose their deaths (Robert, Ivo), or died doing something heroic (Tommy, Yao Fei, Sebastian). 

Well that is totally fair, but I would almost count Moria's as heroic.  I didn't like Sara or Shado's death since they had largely been kickass character prior to that point.  To this day, I can't understand why Shado didn't fight for her life against Slade.  I wasn't watching that in real time, but was binging it on Netflix and I totally expected her to save herself and Sara in that scene.

Edited April 30, 2015 by nksarmi

[Sakura12]

Yes, Moira chose to give her life but she still died with her hands behind her back unable to fight back. That's what makes misogynist to me. 

[statsgirl]

Well that is totally fair, but I would almost count Moria's as heroic.  I didn't like Sara or Shado's death since they had largely been kickass character prior to that point.  To this day, I can't understand why Shado didn't fight for her life against Slade.  I wasn't watching that in real time, but was binging it on Netflix and I totally expected her to save herself and Sara in that scene.

It wasn't against Slade, it was Ivo who had her on her knees, hands tied behind her back gun pointed at her head or Sara's.  And there was a bunch of Ivo's men around them, guns pointed at Shado and Sara in case either tried to fight back. She didn't have a chance.  Nor did Moira or Sara.

 

You can argue whether what Robert did was heroic or cowardly (giving up and forcing Oliver to watch as he shot himself in the head; at least Moira told Thea to look away) but at least Robert and Tommy had a choice. For Moira, hands tied behind her back as Slade was threatening to kill either Thea or her, "there was no choice."  Like Sara and Shado, she wasn't given the opportunity to fight back.

 

And then the villains, Malcolm and Slade, got to live.

[tv echo]

Just a quick shout-out to Lyla...

 

(source)

[olicityfan25]

Love Lyla! That was so badass. Plus Felicity was packing!

[nksarmi]

Yup - total type-o!

 

I love that scene of Lyla which means of course - I think we now need a rule where Lyla can never - ever - die.  Show runners, take note. Lyla is too awesome to die.

 

It wasn't against Slade, it was Ivo who had her on her knees

 

 

Yup - total type-o!

 

I love that scene of Lyla which means of course - I think we now need a rule where Lyla can never - ever - die.  Show runners, take note. Lyla is too awesome to die.  Shado and Sara were too awesome to die as well but Lyla is also a mom - don't ever kill her!

Edited May 4, 2015 by nksarmi

[TrueMyth]

I love Lyla being bad ass, and I love that she and Diggle have short hand for this maneuver. Of course, I now want a scene with Oliver and Felicity where they are hugging and Felicity says "like Lyla's kidnapping" and Oliver pulls the guns.

Part of the reason I'm looking forward to Andy Diggle is learning more about Lyla. I do really wish they'd cast Aldis Hodges as Andy. He would have killed it with DR.

[tv echo]

Trying to make sense of a villain who makes no sense...

 

Rationalizing Ra's

 

I've been trying to reconcile Ra's apparently contradictory and conflicting words and actions this season, and this is what I've come up with:

 

1.  This Ra's is all about power and control.
Malcolm's destruction of the Glades, resulting in the deaths of hundreds, earned Malcolm death - not because Ra's is against killing innocents, but because Malcolm was acting rogue and not in obedience to Ra's' commands.  In contrast, Oliver's destruction of Starling City, resulting in the deaths of hundreds, would be in obedience to Ra's' commands.

 

Ra's sparing of Maseo's life was also his way of exercising the power of life or death over a minion.  Maseo's confession was an acknowledgment of that power, which pleased Ra's.  He could just as easily order Maseo's death on another occasion.

 

2.  This Ra's is a master manipulator.
Ra's will say whatever it takes - and even outright lie - to get people to do what he wants.  His words to Oliver (when he was 'wooing' him) about having the power of the LOA army to do more in the world was part of the seduction.  Ra's also never intended to kill Nyssa.  He ordered Oliver to bring her back to NP so that he could compel her into marriage in order to extend his lineage.

 

3.  This Ra's is an evil egomaniac.
Ra's wants to create a bloodline dynasty of future Ra's al Ghuls, regardless of how the LOA has chosen successors in the past.  He doesn't care about LOA traditions, just about himself. 

 

I fanwank that when Ra's became Heir, he was much younger - perhaps around 30, but the LP is no longer effective in maintaining his youth, so he started aging rapidly only in the last few years.  Unsure of whether he will be able to defeat future challengers, he wants to go out on his own terms and with his successor hand-picked, with a future blood heir in the works.

[TrueMyth]

I don't understand why Ray apparently signed over control of the company to Felicity. The way he did it, with no discussion, was odd and creepy (again). Why are they writing him this way?

I realize there was a lot going on in this episode... I assume Felicity will find out about her... Promotion? in the finale. Why not just wait for the whole discussion there? If he's preparing for his possible death or something, can't he just leave her his shares with a request to be CEO in his will?

Why remover Felicity's agency in this way? Why add this manipulative streak to Palmer?

[Sunshine]

I am not sure that Ray has a "manipulative" streak. I think he has money and power and uses it to do what he thinks is best and isn't used to asking permission. If he asked do you really think she would accept? I don't. Part of his reason for transferring OWNERSHIP of the Starling City division - not control of Palmer Technologies - might be his way of helping fund Team Arrow's crime fighting activities. He evidently has decided it's time to move on so which member would you transfer it to? His friend who has proven capable in aiding his journey or someone else who might run it into the ground? This is what the show has been setting up for her since she accepted his job offer in 3.02.

[statsgirl]

Season 3 appears to be the year they take away Thea's and Felicity's agencies.  I hope they have a nice bonding moment about it over drinks and nibblies. Maybe in front of that fire that is always burning in Thea's loft..

 

I don't think Ray signing over his company to Felicity was creepy in the way that his stalking of her at the start of the season was.  By this time, they're good friends and he knows her worth and that she will take care of the company.

 

I don't know if he brought in a pre-existing company when he rebranded QC or if Palmer Technologies is only QC and he has his original company somewhere else. But he only bought QC for the Applied Sciences tech for his new suit. Now that he has that, it doesn't make sense that he would hang around running a large company when his interests are elsewhere.  And so presumably is his new show.

 

It also works to give Felicity a power base and something to do other than be Oliver's girl Wednesday.  I'd love to see him go to her asking for a job.

[TrueMyth]

I am not sure that Ray has a "manipulative" streak. I think he has money and power and uses it to do what he thinks is best and isn't used to asking permission. If he asked do you really think she would accept? I don't. 

That makes it worse and more manipulative in my way of thinking.  If he didn't discuss it because he thought she'd say know, he has even less reason to ask her to sign it at a time she is obviously not focused enough to take such a big step.  Absence of refusal is not consent, and not asking the question is disrespectful at a minimum.

 

I actually think Felicity would have accepted if he 1) talked to her at a better time, and 2) explained his reasoning.

 

If Palmer wants to fund Team Arrow, he can literally GIVE them money.  Even then, it's up to whichever member he gifts to accept the use of that money or not.

 

To be clear, while I find the act itself creepy for the reasons above, I'd also simply like to know what's going on in his supposedly genius mind.  It's odd to me that a potential lead is so inscrutable.  Barry was an open book regarding his background.  Before Digg joined the team, they gave Oliver voiceovers to make certain the audience knew what he was thinking.  I've been watching Ray for... 18 episodes now?  And I still have no idea why he transfer ownership to Felicity.

[Delphi]

I'm pretty sure that he has various Palmer Technologies in various cities. I transcribed what I could off the transfer papers and it looks as if the Starling City branch has a different corporate name than the company as a whole.

I also don't find it creepy, or taking away Felicity's agency. He's simply done with Queen Consolidated and is leaving it in control of a trusted friend and employee. If she doesn't want it, she's not obligated to keep it.

[formerlyfreedom]

Here's the spot to talk about the characters who come in and out of Arrow; Slade, Shado, Ray, etc!

[nksarmi]

I'm pretty sure that he has various Palmer Technologies in various cities. I transcribed what I could off the transfer papers and it looks as if the Starling City branch has a different corporate name than the company as a whole.

I also don't find it creepy, or taking away Felicity's agency. He's simply done with Queen Consolidated and is leaving it in control of a trusted friend and employee. If she doesn't want it, she's not obligated to keep it.

Exactly.

 

Ray has a lot of money and thinks a lot of Felicity's capabilities.  This is his billionaire version of a gift.  "Tricking" her into signing the papers just sets up a moment when he gets to completely surprise her.  It's a grand gesture AND he isn't doing it to get in her pants - how can we possibly make this about "taking away her agency?" 

 

And besides, like Delphi said, I'm pretty sure this isn't something Felicity can't get out of if she doesn't want it.  She could sell the company or hire a CEO to run it for her.  She has loads of options and frankly, I think its adorable on Ray's part. 

[TrueMyth]

I'm down to agree to disagree.  It smacks of paternalism to me, particularly when she does ask what she just signed.  I hope they write him differently on the spin-off.

 

Do you think he's working on shrinking?  With the "little idea [he] just couldn't kick"? It would be nice to have him innovate his own upgrade without leaning on Felicity or "borrowing" things from QC Applied Sciences or Felicity.