The Not So Merry...Supporting Cast

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, Dipper Pines would have made me care.  The lesser Ritter seemed like a nice guy but nothing to really latch onto in his character.  I'm enjoying that no one has even alluded to him this season, lol.  

[kismet]

I heard Tommy made an appearance in the Crossover. Was it a decent few scenes or just a random cameo? Thanks in advance.

I was wondering if it was worth it to track down the YouTube footage since Tommy is one of my favorite Arrow characters.

[bijoux]

[kismet]

THANK YOU @bijoux!!! Thank you!

Gosh I miss Tommy so much. Even seeing EvilDoppelganger Tommy for a bit was a good thing! Although I'm glad I will never have to endure a full season of EvilTommy, I just couldn't take it. I know he made a good fit to be Prometheus, but I'm glad that logistically was never a possibility for many reasons last season. However, I will gladly take any guest star/cameos CD is willing to give us!!

And wow, they really went for the whole Nazis thing. I can see why it made some people uncomfortable. Not sure I could have tolerate 4 hours of Nazis essentially winning.

[quarks]

12 hours ago, kismet said:

And wow, they really went for the whole Nazis thing. I can see why it made some people uncomfortable. Not sure I could have tolerate 4 hours of Nazis essentially winning.

But it wasn't four hours of Nazis essentially winning. The first hour was mostly character setup - establishing that Kara and Alex were miserable enough over their respective breakups to go worldhopping, everyone invited to the wedding showing up, pre wedding hijinks and so on. The Nazis really only arrived towards the end - and they didn't exactly win that church fight, either.

The next hour was the Arrow hour so of course it was all DARK and TRAUMATIC because, hey Arrow, and this did have some scenes of Nazis winning, but also had a lot of unrelated Jax/Stein stuff and Oliver/Felicity stuff.  

The third hour started out all dark and traumatic, but was definitely not the Nazis essentially winning - it had Leonard Snart blowing up a lot of Nazis and Oliver hitting/knocking out a lot of Nazis and saving Earth X Felicity on the way, and Our Heroes taking out a number of Nazis and getting to go home instead of murdered, as the Nazis had planned.

And in the fourth hour Our Heroes Won and Destroyed All of the Earth X Nazi invaders.....and then let Reverse-Flash go so he could return for the Flash season finale, but I guess we've all complained enough about that one elsewhere.

I suspect that's why most of the fan response has been largely positive - because it wasn't four hours of Nazis essentially winning, which would have been depressing. Instead, it was four hours of superheroes beating up Nazis, which is a lot more fun. 

[statsgirl]

As I was reading this, I was also watching TV, a documentary called Dreaming of a Jewish Christmas about the Jewish songwriters who wrote our popular Christmas songs (who knew that Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer was a Jewish kid seeking to be accepted for who he is? Or Alan Dershowitz explaining that it used to be illegal in Massachusetts to celebrate Christmas or take the day off work).  In it,  The doc also talked about the comics books they created: Joe Shuster and Jerry Seigel (Superman and Supergirl); Bob Cain and Bill Finger (Batman);  Joe Simon and Jack Kirby (Captain America) and Stan Lee.  Mirjam Wenzel, the director of the Jewish Museum in Frankfurt, explained that these heroes like Superman were fighting against fascism, and it's about "the Jewish idea of overcoming the situation".   It's about "being inclusive".

So I feel better about the Nazi storyline in the crossover since "Jews were at the core" of superheroes fighting Nazis.  And it helped that our heroes were great in every episode.

Edited December 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[kismet]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

But it wasn't four hours of Nazis essentially winning. The first hour was mostly character setup - establishing that Kara and Alex were miserable enough over their respective breakups to go worldhopping, everyone invited to the wedding showing up, pre wedding hijinks and so on. The Nazis really only arrived towards the end - and they didn't exactly win that church fight, either.

The next hour was the Arrow hour so of course it was all DARK and TRAUMATIC because, hey Arrow, and this did have some scenes of Nazis winning, but also had a lot of unrelated Jax/Stein stuff and Oliver/Felicity stuff.  

The third hour started out all dark and traumatic, but was definitely not the Nazis essentially winning - it had Leonard Snart blowing up a lot of Nazis and Oliver hitting/knocking out a lot of Nazis and saving Earth X Felicity on the way, and Our Heroes taking out a number of Nazis and getting to go home instead of murdered, as the Nazis had planned.

And in the fourth hour Our Heroes Won and Destroyed All of the Earth X Nazi invaders.....and then let Reverse-Flash go so he could return for the Flash season finale, but I guess we've all complained enough about that one elsewhere.

I suspect that's why most of the fan response has been largely positive - because it wasn't four hours of Nazis essentially winning, which would have been depressing. Instead, it was four hours of superheroes beating up Nazis, which is a lot more fun. 

Thanks for the breakdown. I really only watched the final hour and monitored the response in the ratings and a little on the LoT threads. I'm glad you tell me that they managed to take a positive turn, still not sure Nazis were the best option for supervillain alter egos in light of present day tensions. I feel like perhaps they could have done the whole storyline just as you described and skipped the Nazis.

But that is neither here nor there, I'm still not a fan of all consuming large crossovers, prefer smaller intimate ones. For me they are never special or big enough to be a mini-series/movie and they always take away more than they give.

[quarks]

7 hours ago, kismet said:

 still not sure Nazis were the best option for supervillain alter egos in light of present day tensions.

I should probably get into this on another thread, but speaking as someone whose grandfather fled Nazi Germany, leaving friends and close relatives behind who did not survive. I think those present day tensions are exactly why we needed the villains here to be Nazis. Not all that long ago, Nazis made multiple appearances in our various entertainment sources as either villains or subjects of mockery.  Oh, sure, the very occasional work tried to humanize a Nazi - but that was rare. They were bad guys. End of story.

In the last twenty years or so, we've slowly been moving away from Nazis as villains - or, in the case of the MCU, calling them "Hydra" and saying that they are worse than Nazis - which in turn makes Nazis no longer the worst.  There's been more than one book presenting concentration camp directors as redeemable, which, fucking no. 

How much this shift in our entertainment has led to the current climate I can't say. But I can say that given the current climate, we absolutely need to go back and emphasize that yes, Nazis are bad. Evil. If you become one, we'll cheer as superheroes beat you up. 

[kismet]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

I should probably get into this on another thread, but speaking as someone whose grandfather fled Nazi Germany, leaving friends and close relatives behind who did not survive. I think those present day tensions are exactly why we needed the villains here to be Nazis. Not all that long ago, Nazis made multiple appearances in our various entertainment sources as either villains or subjects of mockery.  Oh, sure, the very occasional work tried to humanize a Nazi - but that was rare. They were bad guys. End of story.

In the last twenty years or so, we've slowly been moving away from Nazis as villains - or, in the case of the MCU, calling them "Hydra" and saying that they are worse than Nazis - which in turn makes Nazis no longer the worst.  There's been more than one book presenting concentration camp directors as redeemable, which, fucking no. 

How much this shift in our entertainment has led to the current climate I can't say. But I can say that given the current climate, we absolutely need to go back and emphasize that yes, Nazis are bad. Evil. If you become one, we'll cheer as superheroes beat you up. 

Fair Point. I just fear the glorification of Nazis. Even though they got beat up in this plotline, they still had amassed great power in World X. And some people always aspire to be the bad guy. I'm not sure what the answer or solution is for the real world. I do wish entertainment was able to find a more powerful way to help stop Nazis and the ideology they promote.

[quarks]

2 minutes ago, kismet said:

Fair Point. I just fear the glorification of Nazis. Even though they got beat up in this plotline, they still had amassed great power in World X. And some people always aspire to be the bad guy. I'm not sure what the answer or solution is for the real world. I do wish entertainment was able to find a more powerful way to help stop Nazis and the ideology they promote.

They weren't glorified.

And look - most of the current Nazis don't see themselves as the bad guys. Members have flat out told multiple media outlets that they see themselves working for the greater good. 

That's why I think stuff like this is important. That this this crossover event was also mostly written by Jewish people, and featured blacks, queers, Hispanics and Jews going up against Nazis - and WINNING - was a bonus.  

[kismet]

8 minutes ago, quarks said:

They weren't glorified.

And look - most of the current Nazis don't see themselves as the bad guys. Members have flat out told multiple media outlets that they see themselves working for the greater good. 

That's why I think stuff like this is important. That this this crossover event was also mostly written by Jewish people, and featured blacks, queers, Hispanics and Jews going up against Nazis - and WINNING - was a bonus.  

 I didn't watch most of the crossover, so I don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other whether they were glorified or not. But I fear there was not enough of them being seen as bad or their ideology as horrible and wrong. I was talking about it more in generalities. I think we want the same thing, so I'm just going to drop this. I'm glad that you were happy with the outcome and plot of the crossover. Maybe it will have some positive impact.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, kismet said:

But I fear there was not enough of them being seen as bad or their ideology as horrible and wrong.

Oh yes, there was. And they were.

[catrox14]

On 12/3/2017 at 3:57 AM, kismet said:

And wow, they really went for the whole Nazis thing. I can see why it made some people uncomfortable. Not sure I could have tolerate 4 hours of Nazis essentially winning.

Well, they didn't win on Arrowverse Earth One and they EX Nazis didn't win on Earth One when they invaded. They only won on Earth X in a fictional universe.

[quarks]

4 minutes ago, kismet said:

 I didn't watch most of the crossover, so I don't have enough evidence to say one way or the other whether they were glorified or not. But I fear there was not enough of them being seen as bad or their ideology as horrible and wrong. I was talking about it more in generalities. I think we want the same thing, so I'm just going to drop this. I'm glad that you were happy with the outcome and plot of the crossover. Maybe it will have some positive impact.

I did watch the crossovers, so I can tell you that yes, the Nazi ideology was portrayed as horrible, wrong and straight out evil. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, quarks said:

I did watch the crossovers, so I can tell you that yes, the Nazi ideology was portrayed as horrible, wrong and straight out evil. 

Unequivocally.

[statsgirl]

A complication is that it's becoming increasingly hard to come up with a group to play evil villains.  It used to be the Russians during the Cold War, then the Chinese, and most recently Arabs.  And while ISIS/Dayesh still qualifies, it's no longer okay to target all Arabs with the same brush.

Nazis you can portray as horrible and straight out evil.  The squicky part was having them wear the faces of our heroes.

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's move on from the kinda off topic discussion of Nazis please.

[JJ928]

I needed to list my grievances with Rene, and since there's no thread for him (nor does he deserve one), I guess this is the best place for them.

Rene pisses me off more than any other newbie, and I admit it's because he was the only one I was actually excited for. As a Latin woman I am tired of Latin characters being played by Italian actors who can't speak a lick of Spanish. The show finally has a Latin character who's actually portrayed by a Latino, but he's terrible. I finally watched this last episode, and I don't think I have every hated characters like I hate these three. Rene, however, I have disliked since day 1.

Since he came on he's been written as a machista, showing outward disdain and disrespect to Felicity & Curtis (in those early days). While he acted like a little shit to everyone, his demeanor towards those two stood out. Typical insecure Latino male bullshit, the exact opposite of what I wanted in this character. He's hot headed, small minded, and refuses to listen to reason. Rene was a failure imo since day one, because he refuses to evolve. He had issues taking orders from Oliver, but he seemed even more annoyed taking them from Felicity. He spent his first season mocking and putting Curtis down (a Black queer man), he called Felicity Blondie even after she asked him to stop, he didn't do this with the other members. He obviously doesn't know the meaning of no, especially where women are concerned. Other than ignoring Felicity's request to stop calling her Blondie, he ignored Thea's MANY nos to going out with him. Even the other team members told him he had no chance with Thea, he continued to pester her into dating him. The man has no boundaries or respect for women.

I can't even get into all the times he ran into a situation half cocked because I do want to enjoy my Saturday. But Rene putting himself and his comfort above everyone else, including his kid, is well documented. Other than ratting Oliver out to Church in season 5.... He had no desire or intention to fight for Zoe. None. It was Lance, after losing his own daughter, that couldn't imagine leaving that little girl in the system, when she had an abled father that could care for her. So Lance did all the work for Rene, he set things up, he convinced Rene that he needed his kid back, and when Rene missed his meeting because he was kidnapped, Oliver came in and promised to help him out. So far, everyone has been on Zoe's side except her father. So just because he wants his kid now doesn't make him any less of a deadbeat dad to me.

Honestly, a large part of me wonders if he agreed to the deal with Watson not only to get Zoe back, but to save his own ass. There is obvious immunity in it for him, if he gets to live with his kid once Oliver's arrested. So other than covering his ass, he gets the kid he didn't really want too. Icing on the cake. Sorry, I will never like or root for Rene. I wanted to like him, but I've said this before, I like my rep well written. I'm not here for a machista deadbeat. So I really hope they either write him off with his daughter, or just kill him off this season.

Also, I used to like Rick but he seems to be a little too much like Rene for me and now I can't stand him. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by JJ928

[KillahBee007]

Full disclosure, I have not watched the most recent episode but I find myself hi-fiving the previous post. I have never warmed to Rene or Dinah. Curtis is becoming irrelevant to me. 

 

My biggest issue with Rene and Dinah is simply the hyprocrisy of characters. Yes, Dig was keeping a secret and yes, it put the team in danger but she knew about Vigilante—and somehow didn’t think it was important to say anything? I don’t see the logic.  Anyway, I’m more surprised that some think that the n00bs are OOC. I think they’ve been like this the entire time. 

[tv echo]

New Team Arrow (NTA)

In 611, the newbies - Curtis, Dinah and Rene - referred to themselves as New Team Arrow or NTA, even though none of them can shoot an arrow. They rejected Curtis' suggestion that they change their team name to The Outsiders.

However, media reviewers and fans have given the newbies' new team other - often less flattering - names. Here's the list so far (in alphabetical order):

B Team or B-Team
Boobs
Junior Varsity
Kiddie Squad
Mini Team Arrow
Newbies
New Team Assholes
N00bs
Noob Team
NopeTA
Not Team Arrow (NoTA) or Not-Team Arrow
Nub Team
Team Arrow 2.0
Team Arrow Jr.
Team Arrow-less
Team B
Team Clueless
Team Dart 
Team Dunderfucks 
Team Hoss
Team Hypocrites
Team Not Arrow
Team Not Arrow That’s Like Early Team Arrow Because Of All The Killing
Team Nub
Team Pissy
Team Punkass Snotbags.
Team Toddlers
Team Two Hypocrites And a Traitor (Team THAT)
Team WannaB
Team Whiny
Team Whiny Babies
Team Whinybritches
Team WhoCares
The B-Team
The Outsiders

ETA: Any others that I missed?

Edited May 23, 2018 by tv echo
EDITED TO ADD ADDITIONAL NAMES TO LIST.

[Morrigan2575]

THAT is perfect. I love it.

[MissLucas]

He! Can we have a poll with those? I'm partial to Team Pissy.

[BkWurm1]

I've heard them called the B Team as well.  Sometimes The Boobs, lol.  Junior Varsity has come up too.  

[tv echo]

I'll edit my above post to add any new names that I come across.

Edited January 28, 2018 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

The problem with how they're writing OTA vs NTA I fht they're showing NTA as totally shallow and superficial, like kids dressing up as heroes. Maybe that's the point of the story? Maybe we're supposed to watch NTA learn how to be heroes, by putting others first? I don't know but, right now all they seem to care about is being cool (Curtis) getting one over on OTA (Rene) or getting the guy (Dinah).

This is a problem because we've seen OTA especially Oliver put Star City ahead of everyone, with the possible exception of Thea. We've seen this team sacrifice to save everyone else.

My other problem is that even when NTA does something that's kind of understandable, like Rene turning on Oliver to get his daughter or Dinah going after Vince instead of the bomb, they make NTA act like horrible brats. Most recently with Dinah/Oliver scene, like she's blaming Oliver for Vince's death being meaningless when she and her team 1) failed to save Vince and 2) abandoned the bomb search for Vince even after Oliver pointed out that just he and Diggle wouldn't manage to get the bomb.

In essence they're giant hypocrites, childish brats, and refuse to take responsibility for their own mistakes. Even if the show expected me to be torn with OTA vs NTA bow can they expect me to be OK with OTA being written as brats?

Edited February 4, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

 I don't know but, right now all they seem to care about is being cool (Cisco) getting one over on OTA (Rene) or getting the guy (Dinah).

...

bow can they expect me to be OK with OTA being written as brats?

I think you mean Curtis, not Cisco, and NTA, not OTA, here. Totally understand that this subject is enraging and causes errors.

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, Curtis not Cisco. Will correct

[BkWurm1]

One of the topics brought up in the other thread was why did Rory work when Rene, Curtis and Dinah didn't earn audience affection. (As much at least)

Rory did have IMO a more compelling reason to join the team to start with.  So that beat out random screamer being recruited, Curtis getting beat up, or Rene just already out there (and worse yet, because he'd rather punch people than get his daughter out of child services.)  

Then Rory came with not only a distinct skill set (something Curtis and Rene certainly did not have and even Dinah only screamed some of the time, otherwise her fighting style wasn't that standout) but also a distinct voice in the bunker.  He was the one that spoke up about spiritual things for example and he added humor without it being at the expense of other characters.  

Rory also bonded and seemed like a real friend of Felicity's.  The same could be said of Curtis but Rory was a friend without lessening Felicity.  She didn't have to be less brilliant at what she did to make room for him on the team like was the case with Curtis. 

Rene was supposed to be bonding with Diggle but his one nice act, setting up the party with his family came at the expense of ANYONE else around Diggle not thinking of it themselves.  In order to let Rene look good, Oliver, Felicity, and Lyla had to look really thoughtless.  

Dinah came with the cards stacked against her in a lot of ways but she was as well received as she was last year by keeping her head down and fading into the background and corralling Rene and Curtis.  They became far more likable when they were being heckled by big sister.  But Dinah's scenes with Diggle never stopped being problematic with the unintentional smolder (or intentional but going no where) and they never worked on any female friendships would have skipped the eye sex or at least made for a new variety of it.  

It's not hard to look back and see where they went wrong but it's harder to know why they went wrong.  

[statsgirl]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

In order to let Rene look good, Oliver, Felicity, and Lyla had to look really thoughtless.  

In order to have Dinah bond with Diggle this season, they isolated him to just her.

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Then Rory came with not only a distinct skill set (something Curtis and Rene certainly did not have and even Dinah only screamed some of the time, otherwise her fighting style wasn't that standout) but also a distinct voice in the bunker.  He was the one that spoke up about spiritual things for example and he added humor without it being at the expense of other characters. Rory also bonded and seemed like a real friend of Felicity's.  The same could be said of Curtis but Rory was a friend without lessening Felicity.  She didn't have to be less brilliant at what she did to make room for him on the team like was the case with Curtis. 

I think  these things are important.  Like Roy, he had a place in the lair without having to displace someone else to have it.

I'd like to add to your list that the writers knew that Rory was going to leave by midseason so they didn't deliberately push him to the front obnoxiously in order to force the fandom to like him as they did with Rene and Curtis, nor did they deliberately underwrite him as they did Evelyn because they were going for a real gotcha.  They put Rory in when he fit naturally into the story and left him out when he didn't.

[BkWurm1]

27 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

They put Rory in when he fit naturally into the story and left him out when he didn't.

Having that distinct voice, personality and purpose helps make that easier otherwise you run into the problem of never really fitting in naturally.  

[Morrigan2575]

I think that's another problem with how they're writing the Noobs. Even before the break up they seemed to have decided that each Noob is assigned to a specific member of OTA.  

Felcity/Curtis

Diggle/Dinah

Oliver/Rene (and when Oliver wasn't available Lance)

The biggest problem is, once they locked in on this plan they never deviated. So there could be no Delicity or OTA because they had to "fit" the noobs in. There could be no Felicity/Dinah because Felicity ahead to support Curtis and Diggle had to support Dinah.

I'm not really sure why they locked onto this pattern so religiously that they couldn't deviate but that to me is a big negative to the Noobs. 

I also agree with other points and, it's kind of hilarious that they didn't learn from last year. In S5 they pushed Rene to the front, he got his own flashback episode he was getting more screentime that the other Noobs. They even toyed with a Rene/Thea pairing. And most of the fandom seemed to hate him.

In S6 Dinah has been pushed to the front, she's getting more screentime than the others (save OTA) and just had a flashback episode. Now, for many (I won't say most of all) whatever like/love was there last year has faded.

I think a lot of TV Writers fall into this trap. 

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

In S5 they pushed Rene to the front, he got his own flashback episode he was getting more screentime that the other Noobs. 

...

In S6 Dinah has been pushed to the front, she's getting more screentime than the others (save OTA) and just had a flashback episode.

Oh God, does this mean a Curtis flashback episode next season?

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, bijoux said:

Oh God, does this mean a Curtis flashback episode next season?

I'm afraid so. I imagine Echo will argue that he's due for a centric episode since EVERYONE else got one.

I will skip that one.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm afraid so. I imagine Echo will argue that he's due for a centric episode since EVERYONE else got one.

I will skip that one.

[Featherhat]

great so we can have more whining about his marriage breaking up even though he begged to be a viligante and no one made him lie to his husband. Year Paul was a bit of a dick about how he sprang the divorce but he's now acting like OTA forced him to join and then betrayed him. He's way too desperate. And he was incredibly offended when Dig asked him to run comms when Felicity wasn't there, too below you after being part of the C Team in the field for 1 whole year dude? EFF off.

I wish they had given Felicity/Dinah some scenes, women don't have to be instance friends but it would be nice to know they realise each other exists. Also I would have liked to see what Rene's problem with Felicity is, beyond RG being annoyed no one wanted to talk about him being the next Oliver but about the nasty 'Blondie' comments. He's only ever worked with Lance for me, not even Oliver because SA has never convinced me he gives a shit about any of these people, unlike other additions like Roy and Sara.

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

And he was incredibly offended when Dig asked him to run comms when Felicity wasn't there,

Oh, I must have missed that. When did it happen?

[Featherhat]

16 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Oh, I must have missed that. When did it happen?

In 604 when Felicity is at dinner with Oliver/on the mission with Alena. It wasn't a huge moment but it was there.

[bijoux]

What would Curtis' flashbacks even focus on? Rene's were about his wife's death, and Dinah's about Vince's (first) death. Both of those events lead to them being vigilantes. We already witnessed that event in Curtis' life. 

Maybe it would be about him losing his brother? Am I remembering that correctly from an earlier season? Likely season 4, because I also seem to recall that I liked Curtis when that was revealed. 

[way2interested]

22 minutes ago, bijoux said:

What would Curtis' flashbacks even focus on?

I figured it would be the BLM episode, but looks like they've seemed to have dropped that idea so far (no complaints here).

[Mellowyellow]

12 hours ago, bijoux said:

Oh God, does this mean a Curtis flashback episode next season?

OMG!!!!! Do not put that out there in the universe!!!!!!! These ffing noobs! What does one need to do to get rid of them!!!!????

Hostility obviously not aimed at you! I am just SO SICK OF THE FFING NOOBS! 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Mellowyellow

[statsgirl]

13 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The biggest problem is, once they locked in on this plan they never deviated. So there could be no Delicity or OTA because they had to "fit" the noobs in. There could be no Felicity/Dinah because Felicity ahead to support Curtis and Diggle had to support Dinah.

I'm not really sure why they locked onto this pattern so religiously that they couldn't deviate but that to me is a big negative to the Noobs.

This is a pattern that the show has with more than just the n00bs.  When Sara started sleeping with Oliver, Felicity was not allowed in scenes with Oliver, although we got some lovely Delicity.  Ditto the fall of s5 when only Susan could offer Oliver comfort.  I'm still angry that Felicity was pushed out of the lair when Oliver and Diggle talked serious business in s3 so that she would sleep with Ray.

Every time they bring in a new "important" character, the existing relationshipsget distorted. It's a mistake they never seem to realize.

[BkWurm1]

39 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

This is a pattern that the show has with more than just the n00bs.  When Sara started sleeping with Oliver, Felicity was not allowed in scenes with Oliver, although we got some lovely Delicity.  Ditto the fall of s5 when only Susan could offer Oliver comfort.  I'm still angry that Felicity was pushed out of the lair when Oliver and Diggle talked serious business in s3 so that she would sleep with Ray.

Every time they bring in a new "important" character, the existing relationshipsget distorted. It's a mistake they never seem to realize.

3

Yeah, I don't get why existing relationships can't be both a part of befriending the new person.  The newbs should have been bonding with all the original team members at the same time in the same scenes even. There's no need to limit it to one on one.  

[Featherhat]

12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, I don't get why existing relationships can't be both a part of befriending the new person.  The newbs should have been bonding with all the original team members at the same time in the same scenes even. There's no need to limit it to one on one.  

Especially as mixing and matching the bonding shows different dynamics and thus fleshes out the characters more and helps them belong quicker ala Roy, and forgive me for keeping mentioning the show, but LOT does this often and it works. Zari already has different relationships with several different characters, Amaya, Ray, Sara and Mick.

[kes0704]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Every time they bring in a new "important" character, the existing relationshipsget distorted. It's a mistake they never seem to realize.

They do (briefly) realise their mistakes in the end of season wrap up, it just doesn’t stick and by the beginning of the next season they’ve forgotten again.

They knew at the end of S2 that they had pushed Sara too hard, she was everywhere (flashbacks and present day), they knew at the end of S5 that they had pushed Rene too much to the front and centre, and now here we are in S6 and they are doing the exact same thing with Dinah.  

They should know by now that the audience is more likely to accept their shiny new characters if they are balanced with the characters that drew people to the show in the first place.

[Guest]

The show's inability to give me the relationship dynamics I enjoy (like Delicity, for example) while writing for the newbies is the major reason I don't really like them and kinda resent their presence tbh. If they balanced all of the relationships better and gave me OTA, Delicity and Thealicity alongside new dynamics with the newbies, I don't think I'd hate them as much as I do now? Obviously they'd never be my favorites simply because I rarely love new characters six seasons into a show but there was a chance to make them work/fit better.

But every time they bring new characters onto the show, it always comes at the expense of the dynamics and characters I enjoy. For the first half of this season Diggle was mostly stuck with Dinah so it's no coincidence that Felicity and Diggle have said more words to each other since this team split. That's not right, IMO.

I mean, outside of Diggle/Dinah, do any of OTA really talk or know or even like the newbies? I get Felicity and Curtis being closer simply because he was around in s4 but most of the time I just feel like they're nothing but co-workers. Do Dinah and Felicity ever talk? Does Oliver even like Curtis? Does Rene hate Felicity's guts (because it certainly seems like it with the dismissive way he talks to her)? I just have no idea and that's a massive writing problem.

[KenyaJ]

Yeah, and the lack of real relationships between OTA and the newbies really harms this civil war storyline, because there are no emotional stakes in it. When Diggle was pissed at Oliver at the end of S3 and the beginning of S4, I had actual anxiety about the state of his and Oliver's friendship. I hated seeing them at odds and wanted them to patch up their friendship so badly. Their relationship mattered to me, and it felt wrong when they couldn't confide in each other and depend on each other the way we'd come to expect.  Most of us lament the times when Felicity and Diggle don't get to interact, because that relationship was so strong in the first two seasons of the show. And it goes without saying that a lot of us feel like the whole show was out of whack in S5 when they kept Oliver and Felicity at an emotional distance from each other.

By contrast, none of the newbies have those kinds of relationships with OTA (or with each other, for that matter). So, aside from not caring about whether the team reunites because the newbies are acting like bratty children, I don't care if the team reunites because their absence doesn't affect OTA emotionally. OTA don't need the newbies in their lives the way they need each other, which means that even if the newbies had been handling this split as maturely as OTA, I'd still be totally ambivalent about whether the team ever reunites. The newbies seem like hired hands, not trusted friends, and that wrecks the entire dynamic of what the show is trying to do.

I wish the writers/producers would realize what a big mistake they made with this storyline and cut the newbies loose.  But since I'm 100% sure they're going to keep the newbies around, I hope they at least realize it's better to keep the two teams separate. After the past three episodes, there is literally nothing in this world that will make me believe that OTA should invest any emotional energy in these losers.

[Guest]

I actually do think the team should stay separate moving forward. It's not as if they're not all working together in the field anyway. But splitting them in two does give the sense of a smaller team? When it's everyone in the bunker it just feels too overcrowded.

[tangerine95]

Yeah I agree the OTA have no bonds with the newbies and it's an issue.I feel like the writers are aware of that tho,because the only reason Oliver wanted them back is because a team of villains is going after him and he's outnumbered.No emotional reason at all apart from that which at least is realistic.

But also when they try to build a relationship it comes at the expense of an old one like Diggle and Felicity never talking because he has to have scenes with Rene one season and then Dinah the next.Idk why that's so difficult for them to handle.You'd think that the main thing to establish when building a team is the friendships.It's crazy to write a team of 6 people and have so many of them either share no scenes ever or like 2 scenes with each other.I really don't think it's such a difficult thing to write,they just needed to mix up the characters,create situations where one episode we get a main character bonding with a newbie in a way that isn't very obvious propping and please like this new mask we need to push and another focuses on an established bond.It's what they do on LoT from what I've seen,some characters are closer than others of course but they all get a chance to interact and create some kind of dynamic.

But instead we get Diggle and Dinah or Curtis and Felicity having basically the same conversations over and over again.It's probably connected to how they refused until this team split storyline,to let the masks fight in any other way except all 5 of them as a group for every single mission.

Edited February 6, 2018 by tangerine95

[quarks]

I think Curtis and Felicity have a genuine friendship - we saw them bonding way back in season four, and despite the split, they were still chatting amicably enough about Stuff.

Frankly, that's part of my issue with this storyline - Curtis' problem really should be with Felicity, not with Oliver, and he should be talking to her about this. Instead, he's chatting with her about dates and so on, while continuing to refuse to work with her husband, which is creating a bit of a disconnect on the screen for me.

[statsgirl]

Considering that Iris had to ask Caitlin to be her maid of honor when they had had practically no friendship before then, we should be glad for the small favors we do get.

I buy the Rene/Dinah/Curtis friendship chiefly as newbies and outsiders and resenting that.  For that reason, I can see why Curtis would be mad at Oliver rather than Felicity, because he's doing it in solidarity with Rene and Dinah, and he wants to keep his relationship with Felicity and the start-up intact, especially after he's lost so much, including Paul and his job at PT because of helping the Arrow.