S02.E06: Twin Cities

[shapeshifter]

Quote

The origins of the Crossing are revealed.

There is a one-week scheduling break between the previous "Shadow Puppets," and this episode, "Twin Cities," so this episode will not air until Sunday, January 20, 2019, 9/8 CT (presumably to be released On Demand and via STARZ subscription streaming service at midnight that Saturday/Sunday and not tonight at midnight) perhaps because of the Critics' Choice Awards, but more likely just spacing the season's episodes out for sweeps and/or other unknowable reasons.

IMDb is already showing guest stars, including twin sister actors Laura and Sarah Bellini as Ilse (presumably one as Alpha Ilse and the other as Ilse Prime). 

Edited January 12, 2019 by shapeshifter

[NeenerNeener]

Thanks, I wondered why it hadn't shown up in the On Demand app yet.

[Coxfires]

Absolutely loved it. Another one that will need rewatch. Thank you Counterpart for answering questions, being suspensful, providing great human psyche insight, character studies... This is TV at its finest. Further analysis later on 

Side notes: once again, a tape was at the center of the story, does Justin Marks have a special relationship with tapes?? Anyway, excellent example of the Butterfly Effect, how something so menial ended up having massive worldwide consequences 

[shapeshifter]

So the premise is (if I understand correctly) that if two identical versions are created, a great loss to one will result in an escalating apocalyptic war of blame between them, right?

[mxc90]

The person that decided to make us wait two weeks for this episode should have his/her head examined.

There is a rumor this show will be cancelled. I hope it isn't true or moves to a network that appreciates good TV.

Another good episode.

What command did Yaneck type in the computer to make it malfunction? Was it the woman's fault who was tasked to recalibrate the X ray splitter? Who knows.

Whomever Yaneck was taking pictures for could share blamed for the split. If Yaneck wasn't preoccupied with taking the pictures he would have noticed the error and hit "abort".

I liked showing the split views of Yaneck's choices/situation. Of course, jealousy/envy prevailed and Yaneck blamed the other.

Yaneck admitting he would have shared his/their wife? 

Did both sides make a virus?

As the group (not Yaneck) started they were all wearing the same outfits. By the end they were wearing different outfits and bitter (so did they prove him right).

Would like to see how the other Mira's life turned out.

Juma sends Mira away and she ends up killing him years later.

Unless one hates his mother, terrible choice for him to call his other a "son of a bitch".

Is JK Simmons still considered main star of the show anymore?

Edited January 20, 2019 by mxc90

[Coxfires]

12 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

So the premise is (if I understand correctly) that if two identical versions are created, a great loss to one will result in an escalating apocalyptic war of blame between them, right?

I think it goes beyond that. Yanek case was extreme but I felt like jealousy/envy is also a factor, little by little, two versions that used to be identical stop recognizing each other and start being doubtful and suspicious about each other.

But I think that Yanek is wrong, that his way of seeing things is tainted by is own experience, and he can't see past that. The two ladies last season and the Lamberts had a very different view of things, but Yanek seems to want to generalize his own vision.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Coxfires

[mxc90]

29 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

But I think that Yanek is wrong, that his way of seeing things is tainted by is own experience, and he can't see past that.

I think the rats fighting/devouring also helped his decision/theory.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, mxc90 said:

Yaneck admitting he would have shared his/their wife? 

Yes, the Yanek whose son survived said he would share his family with his other, and then I got the impression that he sporadically inhabited the abandoned family of his other while his other was having afternoon delight with the non-grief-stricken wife.

 

1 hour ago, mxc90 said:

Did both sides make a virus?

Yes. But it was not (yet) known whether it was released accidentally or on purpose, which is the point: It doesn't matter.

 

Only criticism was the cheesey CGI of the dissolving screen text and then the melting screen. I get that it was supposed to be unlike any typical malfunction, and physical as well as digital, but it didn't work for me.

 

 

1 hour ago, Coxfires said:

I think it goes beyond that. Yanek case was extreme but I felt like jealousy/envy is also a factor, little by little, two versions that used to be identical stop recognizing each other and start being doubtful and suspicious about each other.

But I think that Yanek is wrong, that his way of seeing things is tainted by is own experience, and he can't see past that. The two ladies last season and the Lamberts had a very different view of things, but Yanek seems to want to generalize his own vision.

 

47 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

I think the rats fighting/devouring also helped his decision/theory.

I see a non-violent version of this rivalry and resentment and mistrust among several generations of my family members, but Justin Marks was most likely only mirroring the political divides—two Germanys for sure—and perhaps Eastern vs. Western Europe in general and the nation-states specifically, as well as: the Koreas; Vietnams; Chinas; Americas (North and South of the Civil War, Right and Left, melting potters vs. xenophobes, etc.); Brexit vs. EU; tribal and religious genocides of African nations (including South Africa's apartheid); Australia's, Hawaii's, Canada's, the U.S.'s, Mexico's, and other nations' indigenous vs. invading/colonizing populations; Israel/Palestine; and so on. Maybe even Cain and Abel, as well as Shakespearean and other cultures' tales of destructive rivalries.

Perhaps the series could end with Kind Howard and an Emily or two and others making a fresh start in Antarctica when climate change and a slight change in the tilt of the earth's axis have put most of the inhabited world under oceans and ice while the relatively unpolluted poles grow balmy and fertile.
Maybe a Howard at each pole?
Maybe a parting shot of a wooly mammoth hybrid born from a thawed bit of DNA—another experiment to possibly go awry?

Edited January 20, 2019 by shapeshifter

[mxc90]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes, the Yanek whose son survived said he would share his family with his other, and then I got the impression that he sporadically inhabited the abandoned family of his other while his other was having afternoon delight with the non-grief-stricken wife.

I wonder if he really meant it or was just making it up to calm him down. If that proposal went his way, as the months went on that Yanek would be tired of the situation and the wife would be worn out/thinking where did this man find the energy.

Was Mira's plan all along to just close the door forever or does she want the other side all dead? I guess we'll see Spencer's mission next week.

Edited January 20, 2019 by mxc90

[Bort]

Well, no wonder the Prime side is convinced the Alpha side was responsible for the flu. They had the same contingency plan. Wonder why Prime didn't use theirs for retaliation.

And Mira's plan has nothing to do with Prime’s Office of Interchange, she's her own underground movement. Really makes me wonder what happened to the rest of Mira's family on the Prime side-- Rainer and Isabella. And what happened to Isabella and Mira on the Alpha side, with Yanek pretty much just disappearing on them.

Edited January 21, 2019 by kariyaki
Mixed up my Alphas and Primes

[Noneofyourbusiness]

59 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Well, no wonder the Alpha side is convinced the Prime side was responsible for the flu. They had the same contingency plan. Wonder why Alpha didn't use theirs for retaliation.

Other way around. "Our" world is Alpha and the one that had the flu is Prime.

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So the premise is (if I understand correctly) that if two identical versions are created, a great loss to one will result in an escalating apocalyptic war of blame between them, right?

Yes. That was Yanek's personal experience with the death of his son, and his applying it to the two worlds led to the creation of the flu.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Bort]

24 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Other way around. "Our" world is Alpha and the one that had the flu is Prime.

Yes, thanks. I'm going to have start calling it One and Two or something to keep it straight. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

13 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Yes, thanks. I'm going to have start calling it One and Two or something to keep it straight. 

There's a mathematical or experimental system in which Alpha is the original and Prime is the first derivation.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Mardo2044]

Ok, so I had trouble keeping the Yanek's straight.  Current day Yanek is Yanek Alpha held for years as a POW of sorts in Echo which is a Prime government creation.  So it is Yanek prime whose young son still lived and Yanek alpha whose son died.  Even though Yanek prime offered initially they share the son,.. this was dismissed but later the Yanek alpha crept around and shagged the prime wife and enjoyed playing father to the prime son and prime daughter.  Meanwhile it seems Yanek Prime went over to the other world and paid attention to the "abandoned" family, grieving alpha family.  Then in a heat of passion/anger Yanek alpha killed Yanek Prime.  That is when the Management gave him over to the Prime government and he ended up in echo.  Do I have this correct or flipped?

[Bort]

@Mardo2044, yes, I think that's right.

So, unaccounted for are both Isabellas, Rainer Prime and Mira Alpha.

[WaltersHair]

Loved it, but my head hurts. They did a terrific job with the two worlds, but I just couldn't keep track. Once my closed caption called one of the Yaneks Prime and I thought he was the Alpha. Re-watching.

I'm now insanely curious about the other Mira and the undead son.

My only criticism is  the idea that the Eastern block would leave Yanek alone to just do whatever he wanted with all the money it would take to run those experiments. I thought East Germany was dirt poor and that's one of the reasons the wall fell in the first place. Not so sure the immunity thing would occur over less than a generation either, but I'll give them that.

As a interesting side note, the series is probably referencing Mouse Utopia. Which turned out to not be applicable to humans, but people ran with it anyway.

[Notwisconsin]

12 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Only criticism was the cheesey CGI of the dissolving screen text and then the melting screen. I get that it was supposed to be unlike any typical malfunction, and physical as well as digital, but it didn't work for me.
 

That was the best part of the opening. The lettering on the screen was still there after it had melted and was pouring down the rest of the computer. It gave it a Dali-esque, magical feel as it wouldn't have done that in real life.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, Mardo2044 said:

Ok, so I had trouble keeping the Yanek's straight.  Current day Yanek is Yanek Alpha held for years as a POW of sorts in Echo which is a Prime government creation.  So it is Yanek prime whose young son still lived and Yanek alpha whose son died.  Even though Yanek prime offered initially they share the son,.. this was dismissed but later the Yanek alpha crept around and shagged the prime wife and enjoyed playing father to the prime son and prime daughter.  Meanwhile it seems Yanek Prime went over to the other world and paid attention to the "abandoned" family, grieving alpha family.  Then in a heat of passion/anger Yanek alpha killed Yanek Prime.  That is when the Management gave him over to the Prime government and he ended up in echo.  Do I have this correct or flipped?

You have it right way up.

[Quilt Fairy]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Only criticism was the cheesey CGI of the dissolving screen text and then the melting screen. I get that it was supposed to be unlike any typical malfunction, and physical as well as digital, but it didn't work for me.

I didn't like that, either.  Looked like it was from a 50's B-movie sci-fi flick.

I kept wondering which came first, casting-wise: James Cromwell as the older Yanek and then 2 identical twin actors who could pass as a young James Cromwell, or 2 identical twin actors as younger Yanek(s) and then James Cromwell as someone who could pass as an older version of them?

 

15 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Is JK Simmons still considered main star of the show anymore?

It's clearly an ensemble cast, but J.K. Simmons is still the highest profile actor of the bunch.  James Cromwell is probably as well known, but he's only been in a few episodes so far.   I wasn't paying super-close attention, but I don't think any of the regulars were even listed in the opening credits of this episode.  

[Amethyst]

4 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Loved it, but my head hurts. They did a terrific job with the two worlds, but I just couldn't keep track. Once my closed caption called one of the Yaneks Prime and I thought he was the Alpha. Re-watching.

Yeah, I don't even know who to call what at this point.  I still need to watch this show from the beginning.  Still a great episode, though.  I liked seeing all the actors in the credits instead of the regulars.  Took me a moment to figure it out.

So to get this straight, Ranier Prime lives because Mira notices him having the seizure much earlier, since she didn't have the tape to listen to.  Is that right? 

The ending was sad, seeing the pairs walk off wordlessly, knowing they had been good friends.  Juma in particular, who couldn't even get a handshake from his other.  It makes sense since they no longer trusted each other.  But it was still sad.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Amethyst
Prime, not Alpha.

[Bort]

6 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I kept wondering which came first, casting-wise: James Cromwell as the older Yanek and then 2 identical twin actors who could pass as a young James Cromwell, or 2 identical twin actors as younger Yanek(s) and then James Cromwell as someone who could pass as an older version of them?

Neither. Young Yanek wasn’t played by twins. Ilse was and Volker was but that’s it.

6 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

So to get this straight, Ranier Alpha lives because Mira notices him having the seizure much earlier, since she didn't have the tape to listen to.  Is that right? 

Rainer Prime, but yes. Mira Prime had no tape so she heard the commotion from the very start and was able to notice Rainer seizing right away while Mira Alpha missed the beginning. 

[Amethyst]

3 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Rainer Prime, but yes. Mira Prime had no tape so she heard the commotion from the very start and was able to notice Rainer seizing right away while Mira Alpha missed the beginning. 

Fixed, thanks!

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

Neither. Young Yanek wasn’t played by twins. Ilse was and Volker was but that’s it.

Really? That's what I get for not checking the credits.  I saw 2 sets of twins listed, one male, one female, and assumed that the male twins were playing young Yanek because he and his other were in so many shots together, whereas most of the others were shot either alone or in a way where their other could be a stand-in.  Movie magic. Of course, one wonders why they bothered to get any twins at all, in that case.

[Mommaj]

It appears the ratings are tanking for the show, and I think it's because it's just way too hard to follow. I usually don't have any trouble with convoluted storytelling, but I find myself rushing to read a couple of recaps--and coming  here to absorb others' thoughts--after every episode. The dual universes mixed with a complex plot and a ton of characters--well, I don't think enough viewers have the patience necessary to stay on board. It's too much work. I became committed to the show via Simmons' incredible performance(s) in the first season; now I'm just hanging in because I want to know how it all concludes. Justin Marks came up with a great idea, but I wish he had been reined by whatever the TV equivalent is of a good book editor. The show could have been made much tighter and more streamlined and would have been better for it.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Mommaj

[Coxfires]

I don't find it hard to follow, but it is true that it requires attention. It is not a show you put in the background and let run, every scene has an impact, a detail that will count later on or a point to make. When I watch Counterpart, I give it my all attention, but not everyone wants to do it and I understand it. Some want to watch TV to relax and it isn't that kind of show. It also has no humor at all and that might tip off some people too. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Coxfires said:

I don't find it hard to follow, but it is true that it requires attention. It is not a show you put in the background and let run, every scene has an impact, a detail that will count later on or a point to make. When I watch Counterpart, I give it my all attention, but not everyone wants to do it and I understand it. Some want to watch TV to relax and it isn't that kind of show. It also has no humor at all and that might tip off some people too. 

Yes, and I really should watch it when there is zero chance of my falling asleep for a few moments.

[cdnalor]

On 1/20/2019 at 8:38 AM, shapeshifter said:

Only criticism was the cheesey CGI of the dissolving screen text and then the melting screen

It reminded me of the cheap video effects from the 1980's which I guess would be appropriate for this episode.

[nitrofishblue]

I DVR the show so I can rewatch later. This helps me digest the story line better. I liked this episode since it explained how the split happened and answered some of my questions. I like shows that make me think. I do have shows I watch that are straight out "what the heck" shows. I need that time to decompress and need some mindless entertainment.

[Coxfires]

19 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

 

 

On 20/01/2019 at 11:49 PM, mxc90 said:

Is JK Simmons still considered main star of the show anymore?

It's clearly an ensemble cast, but J.K. Simmons is still the highest profile actor of the bunch.  James Cromwell is probably as well known, but he's only been in a few episodes so far.   I wasn't paying super-close attention, but I don't think any of the regulars were even listed in the opening credits of this episode

You are right he is and he deserves all the praise  but it always bugged me when I read critics reducing the show to his performance only. Sure, he is astounding in his double role, but S2 more and more demonstrates that the script is the real #1 strenghth. This episode had none of the main cast and was the Best of the series. Early season 2 had Olivia Williams being terrific as both Emilys, Harry Lloyd was fantastic in s2e5 and Naznin rocked it last season in her origin story. Sure it helps when the actors elevate the material and find synergy with it, but a good script prevails IMO.

[kikaha]

They were doomed the moment they did not shut down the gateway between the two universes.  From then on the butterfly effect pretty well assured events could spiral out of control.  Bringing in the other researchers could only add to the coming chaos. 

It shocked me when Yaneck Alpha started sleeping with Prime's wife, and then when he killed Prime.  I'm also pretty shocked the authorities did not execute him. 

Very much enjoy the show, and will miss it if/when STARZ cancels it. 

[shapeshifter]

19 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Very much enjoy the show, and will miss it if/when STARZ cancels it. 

I just want it to have a final finale that the creators are satisfied with. Serial stories like this do better with a finite length anyway—IMO.

[Bort]

This episode really reminded me of the Fringe episode "Peter," that had much of the same theme. Flashback episode set in the '80s that reveals a lot of the alternate universe mythology backstory punctuated by tragedy.

[Mommaj]

Can someone remind me (I think I'm supposed to know) what the employees of the Interchange office think they're doing and what it is they actually do? Am I right that only the very upper echelon employees know of the Crossing? It seems crazy to me that the whole place could exist and yet word would never have gotten out to the general population that something unusual was happening there. And now that we've seen the origin story, I still don't get how the secret project run by the management crew became a government (or is it UN?) agency. Sorry, I'm just one of those people who gets annoyed when the details aren't pinned down.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Mommaj

[Haleth]

It was so interesting seeing how the Interchange was created although we still have to handwave how and why the whole event occurred.  Now we know who Management are (Max from Humans!).  

Poor Yanek Alpha.  That random, insignificant act (giving Mira the tape instead of crushing it) led to the death of his son, the estrangement by his wife and daughter, and towering guilt/jealousy/resentment/anger that his world was turned upside down while his other enjoyed a loving family.  I was a bit confused about which Yanek was which and had to remind myself during the fight scene that Alpha was a bit disheveled without his wife, and Prime with a wife was a bit neater. 

On 1/20/2019 at 11:55 PM, kariyaki said:

Young Yanek wasn’t played by twins

Really?  I could have sworn there were two actors.  Kudos to cast and crew for making me believe that.

On 1/20/2019 at 9:36 PM, Notwisconsin said:

That was the best part of the opening. The lettering on the screen was still there after it had melted and was pouring down the rest of the computer. It gave it a Dali-esque, magical feel as it wouldn't have done that in real life.

I thought it was a cool visual.  I also loved all the references to the opening credit animation, like the black hooks on the white wall that looked like the grid with black and white stones.  And the human form (doll?  I don't know what else to call it) on the desk that looked like striding figure from the credits.  The set design of the lab was very clever.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

21 hours ago, Mommaj said:

Can someone remind me (I think I'm supposed to know) what the employees of the Interchange office think they're doing and what it is they actually do?

 

On Howard's former level, Interface, they have no idea what they're doing and aren't even given a cover story. They just exchange those coded phrases, which their superiors translate into information the other world is allowing them to have. Medium levels might be told some story. Strategy and Diplomacy certainly know what they're actually doing, which is to monitor the Crossing, conduct diplomacy across it, spy on the other side and take care of spies from the other side.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Mommaj]

Thanks!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 hours ago, Mommaj said:

Thanks!

You're welcome!

[wilnil]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 12:16 AM, Mommaj said:

And now that we've seen the origin story, I still don't get how the secret project run by the management crew became a government (or is it UN?) agency. Sorry, I'm just one of those people who gets annoyed when the details aren't pinned down.

It's UN. Yeah, they really glossed over that; there's a lot of blanks the viewer has to fill in there.

What we know is at least one of the Management originals had a good enough connection with the government to get good funding for their project from the outset. When Yanek Alpha murdered his other in Prime world, and the others decided that had to be dealt with, Management must have had to come clean with their government contacts in order to get those police/soldiers/whatever on each side to take him into custody.

How we get from there to the German government getting the UN involved is still a mystery, but UN control does make more sense, given that these are two entire worlds that, since Yanek's case demonstrated major crimes can be perpetrated across worlds, now know they have things they have to negotiate.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, wilnil said:

What we know is at least one of the Management originals had a good enough connection with the government to get good funding for their project from the outset.

Great connection. Whoever it was had a really fucking good enough connection to get Rainer home THE NEXT DAY. Sedition charges were not normally slaps on the wrist.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, wilnil said:

It's UN. Yeah, they really glossed over that; there's a lot of blanks the viewer has to fill in there.

I'm not sure, but I think maybe there's still enough room between the "blanks" for the "UN" to think they're just dealing with separate political entities separated by a wall and not separate alternate universes--like maybe only a few know the extent of it.

[tennisgurl]

I missed seeing the Howard's and everyone else, but that was an awesome origin story. It had drama, intrigue, and a lot of the very issues that this show exists to explore in its best moments. The butterfly effect stuff was really fascinating. To think that one cassette could cause so much trouble, and effect so many lives...

I wonder what happened to Miras Other? Maybe she shows up in the story again sometime? I felt awful for old Yanek, even if he did terrible things, and helped to cause all of this in the first place. I can understand why the Yaneks and their friends got so excited about this, and also why it all fell apart. I think there is something to what Yanek said, about how sides need to destroy each other out of jealousy, but I dont believe that is true. He was blinded by grief and jealousy, and that clouded his judgement, and that bad judgement led to countless deaths. 

As much as the show has been built up with Simmons and his dual rolls (understandably, as he is really fantastic), there is so much more to it. All of the actors do great work, many in dual roles (I would say that Harry Lloyds duel roles are just as, if not even more, impressive), and the story itself is so fascinating and tightly written, this episode in particular. The writers and the actors did a great job of making us engage with characters we have never met before, while also expanding on this universe, and how we got to be where we are. 

The melting numbers when the parallel universes happened was really weird and maybe cheesy, but also really cool and surreal to me. On a show that generally plays its science fiction more subtlety and down to Earth, its a bizarre little burst of crazy in a serious story of identity and spys. Like Salvador Dali goes Cyberpunk. I also loved the coat hangers the camera focused on in that scene, like the dots in the title sequence and the the ways it looked like the opening scene. It was so striking, it actually gave me goosebumps.

I wonder if we will end up seeing that the universes are a yin and yang, where they need each other to survive?

Edited January 24, 2019 by tennisgurl

[shapeshifter]

48 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if we will end up seeing that the universes are a yin and yang, where they need each other to survive?

If the end is that the two universes need each other, that would be an inspiring variation from everything we hear on the news.

[Coxfires]

59 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

If the end is that the two universes need each other, that would be an inspiring variation from everything we hear on the news.

Agreed, I would like to see that there is no determinism and that humans are in the end capable of deciding that there are other ways than antagonising each other. Utopist, for sure, but reaching synergy rather than destruction would be a great message. I'd even settle for indifference.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Coxfires

[Quilt Fairy]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:06 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

On Howard's former level, Interface, they have no idea what they're doing and aren't even given a cover story. They just exchange those coded phrases, which their superiors translate into information the other world is allowing them to have.

Which still doesn't make much sense to me, since there were obviously couriers who physically crossed daily each way, and we saw bartering for information was done in face to face meetings.

Yanek's ability to get the "government" to both close-off his project and increase the funding without any apparent scrutiny also remains a WTF? for me.  Remember, this is a poor, East German, Soviet-controlled government.  I don't see any way that could have happened.

I hope the show is renewed.  All of TV doesn't have to be mindless drivel. 

[Ottis]

Best episode since the pilot. Finally more on the worlds, and less on the cold war.

[TV Anonymous]

On 1/25/2019 at 1:42 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

Yanek's ability to get the "government" to both close-off his project and increase the funding without any apparent scrutiny also remains a WTF? for me.  Remember, this is a poor, East German, Soviet-controlled government.  I don't see any way that could have happened.

I do not get it too. Yanek and Management are basically a group of scientists from different institutions. How would they be able to create the Office of Interchange with them handling total control? Who funds the OI? It is a major organization with its own intelligence and armed branches.