Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[wonderwall]

I was wondering... Since Arrow will tackle H.I.V.E, what if Felicity's father is the person who ordered Deadshot to kill Diggle's father? I know it's a little out there, but I think it would be interesting to see the shift in dynamics. I think that this would affect Felicity on a level we haven't seen before, she would probably feel guilt for her honorary brother and probably try to pull away from team Arrow. It would be wonderful to see Diggle bring her back from that, thus accentuating and strengthening her bond with him. It would also be interesting to see Felicity, Oliver, and Digg try to take down H.I.V.E by using Felicity's relationship with her father...

 

Just a fleeting thought, I suppose!

[SmallScreenDiva]

Wonderwall, I, too, like the idea of her father linked to HIVE. Not only because of the possibilities of drama with Diggle, but also because I think Felicity's sees herself as "normal" (despite her nocturnal activities) so it would be interesting to see her reaction to her father heading up a shadowy agency. And maybe Daddy Dearest tries to recruit her away from Team Arrow. One of the EPs mentioned that one of next season's themes is "identity." A good question for one Felicity Smoak.

Edited May 26, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[Password]

What I love about Felicity is that in spite of her late night activities with team Arrow she is so normal. That's why I am so interested in her motivations for sticking around. A normal girl wouldn't do what she does. She faces death a whole lot more than any normal person would and faces being killed more too. We don't see her dating anyone because she is so busy with Oliver but maybe she does. She did take to Barry Allen really quickly and easily and flirted with him. I wonder what is so special to her about Oliver.

I don't know about HIVE because I like how separate Felicity is from Oliver and his past. She's new and fresh and interesting in her own right.

I love how s2 built up the bond between the three of them to the point where they now need it tested. And perhaps HIVE is that way but I was thinking more along the lines of the whole normalcy factor. She could have a normal life, although I feel she is compromised now because really the Arrow and Oliver's foes know she's in contact with the Arrow and him.

She was already torn apart by the thought of losing Oliver because of a secret, imagine her family tearing her apart for her nightly activities. Family has this ability to bring out the worst in people. I already think EBR would pull off bitchy in a believable way. Oh the possibilities!!!

[Password]

I've been thinking. Felicity has given her whole life to Oliver and their on going mission. At this rate their relationship is "You give, I take. I give, you keep." I hope this next season allows us to see what it is Oliver brings to her life except near death experiences.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm not sure we're going to get much balance in regard to their lives and mission, because I think the point the show was trying to make is that Felicity herself gets to be a hero through this work, and that's what she gets out of it. She gets to "be more than just an IT girl" as she told Oliver. So she's not giving this just to Oliver, but to the city as a whole. She is making sacrifices and taking risks in her own way and for her own reasons, and getting her own fulfillment from it. I like it.

 

What I would like to see in terms of balance between them is more emotional giving on Oliver's side. As you pointed out, it has been a lot of Felicity giving emotional support and Oliver taking. He reached out and propped her up a couple of times this season--the Clock King episode with the "You'll always be my girl" line even though I hated it; and when he noticed she was upset and assured her she wouldn't lose him before she told him about Thea. And you could count the "You're my partner" scene too, although that resulted from him first being an a-hole, so I'm only counting it for half. But those instances pale in comparison to Felicity's emotional support of him. Practically every episode, especially toward the end of the season, she gives him some sort of Hero pep talk. It would be good to see him more emotionally available and supportive.

[wonderwall]

I feel like once we get to know Felicity's backstory and more about her father (both who we know will be really crappy), we'll get to see that supportive side of Oliver. I think the main reason why we've mainly seen Felicity be supportive of Oliver is because he needed it in season 2 whilst Felicity didn't (mainly because we still barely know anything about her). 

 

Fingers crossed the writers know what they're doing with Felicity! Sometimes I feel like every line Felicity gets as well as her beautiful relationship with Oliver is just a fluke on the writer's part :/ 

[Password]

Erm OK so most of my Felicity liking ways are to do with loving her character and really not caring about Oliver at all anymore. The writers of the show honestly took someone I really liked and turned him a big pile of pooh. He just kept on with the secrets and lying and sleeping with Sara (major hang ups I have) being a terrible leader for letting Roy break up with Thea (and being allowed to himself have a relatio ship). That made so little sense to me seeing as Thea was what kept Roy sane but anyway.

When I meant her motivations I was talking about the no-fear factor concerning Felicity. She almost has no sense of self preservation which is fascinating and very admirable. Her life must have really sucked if she thought joining a vigilante in saving the city with its perils was a good idea. And yes I get that she's saving the city but it I'll go ahead and be stubborn on this point.

I understand Felicity needing to encourage Oliver at the time because he really did need a pep talk every episode 3 episodes on end. But what Carrie Ann said about emotional encouragement stands true. Frankly Diggle is more overtly encouraging than Oliver hence "you are irreplaceable Felicity" and even "there's not a thing in the world that could make you a bad person". I love Diggle for that. I hated the "you'll always be my girl" line because it was condescending and gross. He might as well have patted her on the head.

I also agree with wonderwall that anything that sticks concerning Olicity is pure luck and acting from SA and EBR. I do hope they don't ruin one of my favourite characters by not doing her story justice...which is entirely possible because Laurel is getting more screen time.

[Carrie Ann]

Erm OK so most of my Felicity liking ways are to do with loving her character and really not caring about Oliver at all anymore. The writers of the show honestly took someone I really liked and turned him a big pile of pooh. He just kept on with the secrets and lying and sleeping with Sara (major hang ups I have) being a terrible leader for letting Roy break up with Thea (and being allowed to himself have a relatio ship). That made so little sense to me seeing as Thea was what kept Roy sane but anyway.

 

I wasn't happy with a lot of Oliver's decisions this season, but the reason I didn't stop liking him was that I felt the show did a good job of showing that those decisions were bad and Oliver felt the consequences. He didn't tell Thea the truth; she lost faith in him and they're now estranged. He told Roy to break up with her; she was immediately abducted and Roy went off the deep end. His secrets about the island put everyone in danger and got his mother killed. The Sara thing--I don't see that as a bad decision (personally, but I get that a lot of people do!)--but even there, it didn't work out and she ended up back with the LOA anyway. Not trying to change your mind--just explaining why I agree, but still like him. As long as the show understands that he's making mistakes, and that they have him grow and change, I'm still pro-Oliver.

 

I understand Felicity needing to encourage Oliver at the time because he really did need a pep talk every episode 3 episodes on end. But what Carrie Ann said about emotional encouragement stands true. Frankly Diggle is more overtly encouraging than Oliver hence "you are irreplaceable Felicity" and even "there's not a thing in the world that could make you a bad person". I love Diggle for that. I hated the "you'll always be my girl" line because it was condescending and gross. He might as well have patted her on the head.

 

Yes, I feel the exact same way. Diggle is the unsung hero, always, but especially for how much better a friend he is to Felicity than Oliver is. I think that's great, in terms of the core Team Arrow having different dynamics with each other. But man, that entire Clock King episode rubbed me the wrong way, and that "You'll always be my girl" scene most of all. Condescending and gross, exactly.

 

For the most part, Felicity just doesn't need the emotional support that Oliver does because she's pretty fabulous and has been fairly angst-free thus far. So I haven't expected it to be even, but in terms of the evolution of their relationship, I'm looking for some scale-balancing. If her family issues cause her angst, I want Oliver right there to reassure her. And I would like to see a little more pining on his side, a little more obvious feeling, like we've seen from Felicity.

[calliope1975]

Felicity is awesome. That's all I have to say. But no, really, when she has been vulnerable, either physically or emotionally, I think Oliver steps up. Minus that "you'll always be my girl" line, because I also thought that was a pretty gross line even though that wasn't the intent. (Sidenote: High Felicity is adorable.)

 

I think going forward to support Felicity, Oliver needs to open up more. That goes for Diggle as well. Oliver withheld information from both of them that could have helped them get their bearings on all the nasty shit with Slade. So I hope in S3, Oliver talks to Felicity more instead of ordering her around. Like when he said she could tell him about her day. A few scenes like that could enrich both their characters.

[BkWurm1]

I do think that it bears repeating how much better the "you'll always be my girl line" came off in the episode than when read on its own. I was prepared to hate it and Oliver's condescending ass but between her pain pill induced rambling and Oliver's amusement and pride in what she had done, I ended up finding the line and the touch sweet and rather telling. In her state it was fine how he showed his affection and since we understood what Felicity really was trying to say, him repeating her words back worked for me. There was IMO some gentle teasing but I think also a genuine affirmation of how irreplaceable she was in his life. My biggest complaint if anything was I thought he was being a bit too touchy feely in front of Sara.

[Password]

My biggest complaint if anything was I thought he was being a bit too touchy feely in front of Sara.

Agh what was up with them defiling the Arrowcave? In all probablitiy they had sex at the end of ep 13 and then they were liberal with PDA. Way too liberal. That whole mess was a headache.

I guess the "you'll always be my girl" annoyed me so much because Felicity was basically the kid in the foundry all episode. It was so at odds with the Felicity I had come to know who was strong and not afraid to stand up to Oliver. But then most of what I was offered in the second half of season 2 grated on my nerves.

The reason I disliked the character sledging for Oliver was because it was so abrupt. Like the writers went OK, people like Oliver, let's nuke his character in 20 different ways. If I saw it gradually I would have been on the bus but it felt like it happened in one fell swoop. I went from liking him to disliking him to not caring if he died in maybe 4 episodes.

Edited May 27, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[quarks]

It's possible that I'm misreading this, but I think that Emily Bett-Rickards has been deliberately playing Felicity as someone who regresses back into childhood a little whenever she thinks she's going to get abandoned again. It's not just that her self-confidence seems to waver, but she physically seems a little younger. Compare the awesome scene where she calls Oliver out on the syringe and the sports drink, where she's flustered after her accidental confession that she's been checking him out, but her voice remains at the same level and her body stance remains confident, because after all, at this point, this is just a hot guy who keeps coming up to her with increasingly ridiculous stories that she only sees for brief intervals every couple of weeks. She loses him now, the main thing she's losing is a chance to check him out and the having to deal with any awkward questions about why, exactly, she's analyzing "sports drinks." It helps of course that his lie is far worse than anything she's said.

 

Then over to Heirs of the Demon. Her voice gets more high pitched; it trembles. In the Clock King episode she's often acting like a teenager - it was one of many reasons that's not one of my favorite episodes of the season - and again, the high pitched voice.  In the "I love you scene," her voice also goes up when Oliver tells her that she has to stay behind at the mansion. She's almost panicking.  

 

I think this works well with the whole abandoned at a young age thing, and behavior patterns that might be very hard for Felicity to outgrow.

 

Regarding the Oliver telling Roy to break up with Thea bit - I'm not going to defend that in the slightest because wow, was that a bad move, and continues to be a bad move. Assuming that Thea really goes evil and isn't just back with everyone in a couple of episodes, it's going to go from bad move to a horrifically bad move.  But I think - based on what Amell has said in interviews and what's been playing out on the show - that Oliver really, really believes that he and Roy can't be with people they really care about, since this will hurt the people they really care about. And, also, they can't be with people who can't defend themselves.

 

I'm going to be interested to see how this plays out next season, once Thea learns how to shoot arrows and jumps out of the "girls who must be protected" category, and what happens when/if Laurel joins as a fighting member, and when/if Felicity learns to fight.  Especially since Felicity can point out that she's now been central to taking out not one, but two guys in the field.

Edited May 27, 2014 by quarks

[Password]

It's possible that I'm misreading this, but I think that Emily Bett-Rickards has been deliberately playing Felicity as someone who regresses back into childhood a little whenever she thinks she's going to get abandoned again. It's not just that her self-confidence seems to waver, but she physically seems a little younger. Compare the awesome scene where she calls Oliver out on the syringe and the sports drink, where she's flustered after her accidental confession that she's been checking him out, but her voice remains at the same level and her body stance remains confident, because after all, at this point, this is just a hot guy who keeps coming up to her with increasingly ridiculous stories that she only sees for brief intervals every couple of weeks. She loses him now, the main thing she's losing is a chance to check him out and the having to deal with any awkward questions about why, exactly, she's analyzing "sports drinks." It helps of course that his lie is far worse than anything she's said.

 

Then over to Heirs of the Demon. Her voice gets more high pitched; it trembles. In the Clock King episode she's often acting like a teenager - it was one of many reasons that's not one of my favorite episodes of the season - and again, the high pitched voice.  In the "I love you scene," her voice also goes up when Oliver tells her that she has to stay behind at the mansion. She's almost panicking.  

 

I think this works well with the whole abandoned at a young age thing, and behavior patterns that it might be very hard for Felicity to outgrow.

 

You've given me something to really think about. If EBR is indeed deliberately doing it, which would make sense in a deliberately being annoying and childish way, then she understands Felicity far better than even the writers. Again, everything to do with Olicity is luck and acting on EBR and SA's part.

 

Now I'm really interested in how the writers handle her abandonment issues because you've made me see that they're a lot more blatant than I previously thought. Yes, she was scared of losing Oliver in Heir to the Demon but ep 14, which remains my least favourite Felicity episode, makes more sense. I always think one shouldn't hide behind your issues the older you get, but I guess if you've never faced them, they have the tendency to make appearences in your adult life. It probably makes even more sense that Felicity regresses after Oliver says she'll never lose him, then he gets back together with Sara.

 

And the fact that everyone seemingly treated Felicity like a child in the episode grated on my nerves. Her one strong moment, talking to Diggle, clued me into what's in her head in a good way. Just thinking about that episode makes me want to spit. Ok not spit but scoff.

 

Bringing Felicity's dad into the show in season 3 will really rattle her in this case. Thanks, quarks.

Edited May 27, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I love that analysis, quarks, and I think you're right, whether it's conscious on EBR's part or not. I know that the Clock King episode was pretty divisive, and I can see the other reading of it as well. I just wish it played that way for me. Felicity is just so relatable that that episode was painful for me to watch. I felt that Sara sort of treated Felicity like a little girl trying to play with the big kids, but I can see why others saw it as affectionate teasing. I do like Sara and Felicity's friendship in all the other episodes. And Oliver was just oblivious to what was going on with Felicity, which sucks because she wasn't being subtle, and he usually notices when something is off with her (as in Heir to the Demon). So in that end scene, I wanted him to be a little apologetic and feel a little bad. Because she had, you know, just gotten herself shot after feeling insecure enough about her place on the team that she took it upon herself to track down the bad guys herself. But instead it was just smiles at her being adorably high, and telling her she'd always be his girl, which rang a little hollow after an episode in which he didn't even notice that something was bothering her.

[Password]

I agree Carrie Ann, the problem for me was their way of treatig Felicity. quarks makes a very good argument, but Sara's comment about Felicity being brave made me want to slap a bitch. It was like Felicity was a little kid followed by the brotherly pat on the head from Oliver. Yuck. If EBR played it off that way on purpose, but the team understood her insecurity, especially Oliver because SHE TOLD HIM the previous episode about her abandonment issues, then I would've understood. Instead it was indulged to the point where she became the adorable little sister and made me HATE what the writers did with her. Not just did Oliver not notice, it came after an episode where he did notice her acting a little strange. Is he so distracted by Sara he needs Diggle to point out what's in front of him? Wow, I really have issues with Sara and Oliver.

Edited May 27, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[Lisin]

Hey guys, forum tip if you @ reply to someone in a post it will automatically bold their name and send them a notification that they were mentioned. Sometimes punctuation messes this up, and you have to spell their name exactly as it appears, spaces and all. You can't ping yourself so as an example if you wanted to mention me in a post you'd type @Lisin and when you post it will change it to Lisin and also be a link to my profile and let me know I was mentioned. :) Cheers! 

[wonderwall]

I feel like in the beginning of the second half of the season, the writers added Felicity in just to appease her fans... Because thinking about it now, her scenes were more like an afterthought, she didn't have  much screentime, she only had a few glorious one-liners... They were solely focused on the Lance Family/Oliver drama which is what bugged a lot of people and I think the writers somewhat understood that. Felicity and Digg took the backseat and thus, it gave her character less depth... However, EBR did the best she could and tried to make sense of Felicity through her acting and breathed life into Felicity.

 

But by the last two episodes, Felicity had direction and a sense of importance. She was there for Oliver and Starling when they needed her the most, and EBR did fantastic portraying this strong woman we got to know in the beginning. Hopefully we see this side of Felicity more often in season 3... The writers must know that Felicity is so much more than a girl with a crush. I don't need Felicity to take a backseat to all the Laurel drama (thus another reason why i don't want the writers to focus on her journey in becoming BC. Hello, this is called Arrow, not BC).

 

Also, about being all touchy/feely in front of Sara... Maybe this is what Sara was talking about when she told Oliver that he needed someone to harness the light inside him. Sara had a first row viewing of how close Oliver/Felicity actually are, she saw Felicity be there for Oliver, and steer him when he's falling in the wrong direction... She didn't see him and Laurel interact much at all which is why I'm going to go to the grave believing that Sara meant Felicity is the person to harness Oliver's light (the last 2 episodes helped too). While the "you'll always be my girl" was a little hollow, I don't mind that scene because she was high as a kite and he was probably too amused to be serious at that moment. I just would've liked to have seen a more honest conversation between them where neither of them were high...

Edited May 27, 2014 by wonderwall

[HighHopes]

Chiming in and agreeing with @Carrie Ann and . The way Oliver and Sara acted towards Felicity in that episode still bugs me. Especially Sara's line about the leather jacket, it just came off as an older sister going "aw look how cute my younger sister is! Trying to fit in with us older kids!". And I say that as a younger sister to three older ones. If Oliver wasn't with Sara at that time, I'm not sure if I would have as many issues with the "you'll always be my girl" line, but he was, so it too felt like a pat on the head. 

 

@wonderwall - Agreeing with how Felicity was just added into the second half of the season. In Heir to the Demon, her and Diggle just disappeared after her speech to Oliver- which I believe was somewhere in the middle of the episode.  

 

My one wish for season three is for Felicity to get a love interest (I don't really count Barry as one). I think seeing her outside of the team (and Oliver) will be great for her character. So far she is the only one who hasn't had a relationship on the show.  

Edited May 27, 2014 by HighHopes

[Danny Franks]

I feel like in the beginning of the second half of the season, the writers added Felicity in just to appease her fans... Because thinking about it now, her scenes were more like an afterthought, she didn't have  much screentime, she only had a few glorious one-liners... They were solely focused on the Lance Family/Oliver drama which is what bugged a lot of people and I think the writers somewhat understood that. Felicity and Digg took the backseat and thus, it gave her character less depth... However, EBR did the best she could and tried to make sense of Felicity through her acting and breathed life into Felicity.

 

 

I don't think it was to appease Felicity fans, but to do what Felicity has always done on the show. As you say, she had some great one liners, even when she was incidental to the overall plot of the episode. She brings a levity and joy to the show that no one else really does. All the talk of her being Oliver's light is so meta, to me, because I see her as the show's light. Before she became a regular, so much of it was grim and brooding, with Oliver and Diggle lurking in their cave, nursing their vendettas. Sure, Diggle offered some joviality when he wasn't fretting about Deathstroke, and Oliver is good for a deadpan line reading or reaction, but Felicity is the one who brings the smiles. For the audience as well as the characters.

 

If I did a compare and contrast with something like Buffy, I think her value is even more stark. Because on Buffy, you had Buffy herself who was good with the quips and the 'I'm just an air-headed teen, what do I know?' self-deprecation. But if she was being dour, then you had Willow or Xander or Cordelia, or even Giles, who could make with the funny. Or Spike, or even someone like Glory, if that's your bag. And I confess to laughing quite a lot when Angel did goofy stuff too.

 

On Arrow, Felicity is really the only character who consistently lightens the mood. And I think that's a vital trait for at least one person on a show to have. Especially in the midst of the Lance Family Blahma. She'll get her episodes, I'm sure, but if they try to dim that light, and make her angsty and dark, then I think the show would actually be better off if they left her as an underwritten foil for the others, and let EBR do most of the work herself.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Password]

Sure, Diggle offered some joviality when he wasn't fretting about Deathstroke...

 

On Arrow, Felicity is really the only character who consistently lightens the mood. And I think that's a vital trait for at least one person on a show to have. Especially in the midst of the Lance Family Blahma. She'll get her episodes, I'm sure, but if they try to dim that light, and make her angsty and dark, then I think the show would actually be better off if they left her as an underwritten foil for the others, and let EBR do most of the work herself.

 

Hehe @Danny Franks I think you meant Deadshot. I liked Diggle before Felicity was introduced to the Arrowcave because he was that light and funny element to me. Honestly team Arrow is just gold. When things turned sour with the Lance family I missed them so much because they were why I watched the show. I could not care less what happens to Laurel because this is not about her journey, it's about Oliver's. She's an unwelcome distraction.

 

I can understand why someone would say Felicity's thoughtless scenes were there just to ensure there's a little of her lightness in the show. But it just frustrated me because it highlighted how uninterested I was in what they were throwing at me i.e. Laurel and Sara. Laurel's story is her own, if you like Laurel so much give her a BC show because I am not buying anything you're selling.

[icandigit]

Was just viewing a gif on tumblr when Felicity tells Laurel she can have Oliver back later. I love how she's not moved by Laurel's continual bitchiness to her.  She doesn't come across that she needs to play nice with Laurel to try to appease Oliver or something.

[Password]

That scene is funny because it's like she's going "Shoo shoo Laurel I'll give him back just now." I am very curious to see how two females in the Arrowcave is going to work out.

Edited May 27, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[calliope1975]

I really like that Felicity is always very polite and I think genuinely cares about Laurel, but is not afraid to pull him away if she needs him. Especially since it's usually for something that Oliver has her looking into. And I am also interested to see how Laurel and Felicity will interact in the Arrowcave. (I mean, really, I don't want Laurel anywhere near the lair, but I doubt I'll get my wish granted on that one.)

[Password]

The longer they keep Laurel out of the foundry the happier I'll be. Agh i hope they're not a happy family. Seriously Diggle is so anti-Laurel it's very funny. No happy family please.

[quarks]

I feel like in the beginning of the second half of the season, the writers added Felicity in just to appease her fans... Because thinking about it now, her scenes were more like an afterthought, she didn't have  much screentime,

 

 

I agree with the screentime stuff. With everything else, no.  Not only do I not think her scenes were afterthoughts, I think many of them, from episode 13 (Heir to the Demon) on they were deliberately written to setup the fake out in the finale. So you have:

 

1. Moira and Dig noting Felicity's feelings for Oliver, cementing this as a real love interest.

 

2. Oliver and Sara getting together, partly to delay Felicity/Oliver (which by episode 10 had reached the "just kiss her already" and by episode 13 prior to the Sara/Oliver hook-up very much the "will they/won't they" stage), partly so that Oliver's revelation could shock the audience - and also make the "it was a fake-out" revelation work (that would not have worked if Felicity/Oliver were together, or if they were still in the will they/won't they stage where Oliver had NOT just been dumped by Sara.)

 

3....along with indications that Oliver does still have feelings for Felicity: the jumping off the stairs together, the more or less falling into her coming down the stairs, the way he continues to turn to Felicity for guidance (Deathstroke, Seeing Red), very arguably his defensiveness about frat boys.

 

4...and indications that Felicity is the one guiding/working with Oliver on the hero path (the last, especially clear in Suicide Squad where Felicity is the one reminding Oliver about hero business, but also in Deathstroke.)

 

5. Felicity's, "Go get Slade. Stop this. Whatever it takes," helping to set up the "yes, you can do the unthinkable if it means taking Slade down."

 

6. Even the otherwise fairly inexplicable scene where Oliver calls Felicity's phone instead of Dig or Sara when Slade shows up at the mansion, to show that Oliver believes that Felicity will figure out what he needs even when Oliver can't, for whatever reason, explain things verbally. I still feel that this could have been worked in some other way because, even knowing what that scene was meant to accomplish, it still doesn't really make any sense to me.

 

And a few other things, but to sum up, limited screentime and character development, sure, but not just there for fans, either.

[Password]

@quarks I think you raise some good points. But for me, they way they threw Diggle and Felicity away in the second half of the season made what Oliver said in the final come out of the blue for me. I was surprised at the sincerity of it and it seems obvious that he harbours at least some more than platonic feelings for her, but then he hooked up with Sara, and there would still be little moments between Oliver and Felicity like the "Go. Stop Slade. End this. Do whatever it takes." which I won't lie scared me a little because this is Felicity saying these things. I can understand the writers thinking they were leaving crumbs pointing to his feelings but I can't help but feel they went about it all wrong. I just had whiplash from lack of team Arrow, then the final 3 episodes were team Arrow with no less than 3 times Oliver and Felicity could have kissed (nevermind the partner scene). That's why even though it seemed genuine it felt unearned for me. Their trust seems solid as a rock and their friendship the same but. I don't know what I think anymore.

[Morrigan2575]

If you're right that means they put a lot of thought and planning into setting up the fake out and this is kind of supported by the fact that MG made a comment about Olicity in the finale qay back in January (the surprise, confound and irritate comment).

We knew from another MG comment that Oliver/Sara was being setup as a roadblock to Olicity, so this can also support the fakeout setup.

I wonder then if 214 actually serves a greater good regarding Felicity's character in light of her role in the finale?

Edited May 27, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

It would also stand to show Oliver ignored his feelings for while. Makes what EBR said about it being his problem sound about right because it's his issue.

[quarks]

Morrigan2575, I think they did put a lot of thought into planning, teasing and creating the fakeout - unfortunately more than they put into some of the individual episodes, in my opinion. It's not that they didn't make changes along the way - my guess is that the original plan was to have Felicity take Slade down with Tibetan Snake Venom, not a Mirakuru cure - after all, the cure really did spring out of nowhere and is somewhat at odds with what Oliver was saying back in episodes 8 and 9, and if Oliver and Sara did know that one was a possibility, it's mindboggling that the guy who owns the company that was able to develop an anti-Vertigo cure in a few hours couldn't have arranged the same thing with a sample of Roy's blood. My guess is that the idea for the Mirakuru cure popped up only after the Flash was officially greenlighted and they decided they wanted to have some way of distinguishing the two shows, thus, the end (for at least the first half of the season) of superpowers on Arrow, with the superpowered guys floating over to Flash. So that was more last minute.  

 

But otherwise, yes, to the point of changing the island backstory as well, and not just with the Mirakuru thing. As I said, to make this work, the show had to at least somewhat obscure Oliver's feelings for Felicity - hinting that he was turning to Sara because he felt he couldn't be with Felicity, but not going out and saying that.  And for the fake-out to work at all, they had to plant several very strong hints that Oliver was over Laurel, if not vice versa. The sister thing helps establish that.

 

However, as I noted elsewhere, Fake/Temporary Romantic Rivals are usually unconnected to the show's main mythology, and wow, did this season demonstrate why: using Sara screwed up their plans for the island story line completely.  The beginning of this season set up a scenario where Sara a) literally had no idea what had happened to Slade, to the point of assuming that Oliver might still be in touch with Slade, something completely at odds with Sara working with Oliver back on the island to bring Slade down, and b) didn't completely trust Oliver and vice versa, which again, doesn't work with the Sara and Oliver working together on the island story that we ended up actually getting, because the show had to switch gears and make Oliver/Sara believable to make the double fakeout work.

 

Anyway, yes, I think they knew by about episode 10 that they were going to end with a double fakeout. It explains a lot of otherwise "huh?" narrative choices in earlier episodes.  Though as ArrowLimbo points out it ended up not completely working for all viewers anyway, for different reasons. In my case, my least favorite episodes of this season were hands down the ones that were mostly setting up the finale instead of letting the story go where the story wanted to go.

[TwistedandBored]

I don't know if I would have been able to handle that botched BoP episode without Diggle and Felicity. So, I think even thought their screen time was decreased in the second half, the little we saw of Dig and Felicity was needed. 

[Password]

Anyway, yes, I think they knew by about episode 10 that they were going to end with a double fakeout. It explains a lot of otherwise "huh?" narrative choices in earlier episodes.  Though as ArrowLimbo points out it ended up not completely working for all viewers anyway, for different reasons. In my case, my least favorite episodes of this season were hands down the ones that were mostly setting up the finale instead of letting the story go where the story wanted to go.

 

I felt like too much about this season, the second half, was about the finale. Instead of being individual episodes that worked with the characters, everything was meant for the finale and if anything the episodes leading up to it from 14 onwards seemed like filler episodes. If they spent time with the characters and followed natural storylines it would've been so different and I don't think Sara becoming the second lead would've happened. I know there are people who were really happy they got BC but I just got annoyed because the show is called Arrow not BC.

 

I also think Slade was introduced too early in the present. He was introduced in ep 9 and then left to his own devices, only to pop up in 15. Then Deathstroke was so amazing which was great, but BoP was a rubbish made worse by the fact that they didn't pursue Laurel's dive into embracing the dark side. I'm really annoyed they didn't at least allow her to go there. Too many filler episodes for my liking.

 

When the ILY happened I was shocked and really like "Oh." Exactly Felicity's reaction because she was also like "what are you talking about?" They just left her out of the preceeding episodes (before 21) too much for me to really see it as a viable thing for Oliver to do. I don't know if they'll explain it in s3 that Oliver didn't pursue her due to whatever reason, but the reason he gave Felicity in ep 6 is in my opinion a pile of pooh because she's already in danger just working with him.

 

I hope s3 brings better story telling. That I can miss 5 episodes and not actually lose anything is troubling. Which is what I felt happened with the Lance drama. It contributed nothing to the story, except that Laurel "stole" Oliver from Sara...surely a ploy to make Sara likable.

 

Some big parts of s2 really made me scoff.

[fantique]

, @quarks and  @Carrie Ann I think you guys are spot on.

I did forget the abandonment issue. I think it's because she is so positive that it's easy to forget she can get insecure about being needed. I'm interested to see how they handle that part once her family is introduced. I hope they tread lightly though. Acting wise it is very clever of EBR to almost regress to a child like state when confronted with her issues, but I hope they still write her staying strong. The way I understand it is she started off life in unpromising, less than ideal circumstances and had to face adversity. To live a more accomplished life means she is strong. It sounds contradictory but I feel like if they show that her coping mechanism so far was to just focus on the positive and ignore the negative, they can show some growth with her facing those fears because now she is in the life of people that would support her unconditionally. And it would be cementing the team relationship. If they really want to show a "weak" Felicity maybe they can flashback to years she was less confident or a time she almost gave up and tried to be "happy with her lot in life".

I love Felicity and she's awesome but obviously we still need to see her change in some way throughout the story otherwise she would be stagnant. Great but stagnant. In S2 the change was her function in QC and Arrow cave. I want to see emotional in S3. And I want see EBR show more of her acting talent. The nuances are really great even in the fewer scenes during the second half of the season.

Speaking of, the lack Felicity and Diggle the second half was really a weak spot. They need to make sure we see her contributing more. even if the "main action" is not central to her than just show her doing other things. I kind of want the hero/action to be more "Villain of the week" with one overarching threat that appears by the first quarter of the season. For emotional track, I want it divided evenly. Yes Oliver is the main character and the show is about the Arrow (which is what the action and hero part is here for) but we care about the other characters and TV storytelling has evolved enough to have heavy emotional components even on a superhero show. The reason why it should be even is that too much Oliver angst makes me feel annoyed, and it goes too much in overkill manpain territory for my taste. Sometimes Oliver can come accross as inconsiderate or self involved because we see the other two supporting him more than we see him supporting them. To make Felicity (and Diggle) not be doormats, they have to show there is a reason for the emotional and moral support besides saving the city.

 

I really like the idea that they planned the buildup to the ILY fakeout, it's just that the execution was messy. It does feel like they are angling for Olicity drama. If they are pursuing Olicity (or dropping hints of future involvement) in S3, then they can show her on a date or something and have Ollie see it and act moody afterwards. His face in finale said 'I am keeping you at arms length because I think I will mess it up with you.' so I would be ok with it. It wouldn't feel too much fan service or teasing. I do want them to take it slow though. However I am open to an alternative of they are good with the development.

I just had the thought that the growing Laurel presence is meant to be the cause of a triangle. God I would hate that. So. Freaking. Much. I hate triangles, they are stupid and the person in the middle inevitably looks bad. In the best case scenario they look indecisive and wishy washy, worst case they look like they are stringing people along and attention seeking. It also diminshes the other two parties because there is only so much 'no, maybe, I don't know' one is supposed to take before picking up their dignity and ending the charade.

Edited May 28, 2014 by fantique

[Password]

@fantique you raise a good point about us needing to understand why Felicity and Diggle believe in Oliver. They can see he obviously makes a very big difference in crime, but he is also an ass on top of that. Seeing Oliver opening up like he did for Diggle in Russia was a really good arc from when he left Dig in the dust for Laurel. In that way we could see him learning from his mistakes and taking his opportunity to put things right.

Right now Dig and Felicity grant him support in the field and emotionally. I would love to see Oliver give the same to them.

[doesntworkonwood]

@fantique I totally agree with you on the whole love triangle thing. Arrow isn't like other shows, it doesn't need a heavy romance plot, and a love triangle will only lead to more angst which the show does not need. 

Also, I really don't think it would make sense unless they retcon Felicity and Oliver's relationship completely, and even Laurel to a certain extent. I don't see Oliver getting into any kind of relationship with Felicity unless he was completely sure about it, and I don't see Felicity be jealous or intimidated by Laurel because we've never seen that before. Out of the show, the fans may see competition between the two, but in show I really don't see it.

[TwistedandBored]

OMG! I would seriously hate it if Felicity gets involve in a triangle with Laurel and Oliver. Someone always gets the shaft in triangles and we all know who that is going to be in Arrow. No, I just want the show to focus on Felicity's backstory and if they want O/L to keep Felicity away from that mess.  

[Password]

I would be highly annoyed if they decide a triangle is the way to go. I would jump ship because in all probability they'd favour Laurel instead of whoever makes sense. I still don't understand Sara's Oliver needs you. Where did it come from? But then that whole scene is baffling. Arrow has three hundred storylines going on at the same time and having a triangle would be as pleasant as the Lance family drama.

[bluebonnet]

I'm glad they've created Felicity as a character who has more self-esteem and awareness to get involved in a love triangle.  I'm not fearing it because Felicity wouldn't allow herself to wait around for Oliver to choose. 

[doesntworkonwood]

You're absolutely right , Felicity would not wait around for Oliver. Before Barry Allen came on, Felicity's feelings for Oliver were very present, but she was still very open to a relationship. There is no reason for her not to be open to one now. If there was a love triangle, it could be between Felicity, Oliver and another guy that she's in a bordering on serious relationship with. But even that wouldn't work, because Oliver is not the type of guy to outwardly show his jealousy and would probably spend a lot of time brooding and talking about how happy for Felicity he is. I don't see Oliver competing, and I think that there needs to be an element of competition for a love triangle to work.

 

We've already seen that a love triangle with Laurel at the centre didn't work, one with Oliver at the centre wont work and would turn a lot of people off the show, and one with Felicity at the centre just wouldn't work at all. There is literally no way that a love triangle can work on the show, so I really hope that they don't try it. 

[TwistedandBored]

I agree. No triangle at all on this show again. They barely survived the one with the sisters. I don't think fans would be as forgiven again if Felicity is put in the middle of that Lauliver mess. 

[wonderwall]

I thought I would bring the conversation over here because I was told this wasn't appropriate for the bitterness tag! :)
 

I started it in TWoP's image as a bitterness thread to simply air bitterness towards any character on the show. No character should be immune to it as this isn't a Felicity fan thread. I have problems with her character as I do other characters. I certainly hope this show doesn't become the Felicity show because I'm not bought into her awesome. Characters that can 'do no wrong' eventually become Lana Lang which I think is where Felicity is headed if she can't take a little flack. Everything she does isn't perfect and I'm tired of the characters acting as if it is. Once she gets more screen time she better get a personality besides snarking and hacking and drooling over Oliver.

 
@slayer2, Then I suppose I see something in Felicity that you probably don't. I mean the way I take your comments, I think you believe Felicity is a relatively flat character... I guess here's my argument for her sake.

Even though Felicity doesn’t have an expansive backstory like most of the characters on the show, that doesn’t make her a flat character, nor does it make her weak. What little we know about her actually makes her character one of the most intriguing ones. Felicity went through a lot. Her father abandoned her and her mother, she wasn’t exactly the richest person in Nevada, AND at one point she probably thought her life would lead to her being a cocktail waitress. Did Felicity accept this fate? No. This shows her strength even at a young age, it also shows how she’s willing to take risks by going two thousand miles away from home to go to college and work at QC. Even though the odds were against her Felicity pulled through it because she was that determined.

Felicity goes through so much with Team Arrow and yet still remains to be compassionate and good which takes a very strong person with strong morals to accomplish. I don't think you see how not only does she hack for the team, she's also the moral compass. She's the one who calls Oliver on his shit, she's the one who outright tells him if he's doing something that's morally wrong, she's also the one Oliver goes to when he's lost and wants to find his way back on track again (as we saw in episode 22). Oliver needs her, just as much as she needs him and Digg, and not just on a professional level. 

Felicity also isn’t just the love interest on the show, nor is she the one who only provides levity to the show, she is an asset to the team. Not only does she help them with everything tech, she is also Digg and Oliver’s emotional crutch. She is there to keep them in check and kick their asses when they do something wrong which is why I feel like your 'drooling' comment is sort of uncalled for. Felicity is Oliver's partner, his equal. Just because she has a crush on him doesn't mean that it takes over her entire character. She is by far the strongest female lead on the show and maybe you'll see that in the last few episodes. Felicity truly is a hero by her own right. She defies her fears and tries her best to save the city she loves most without bringing any personal drama into the mix. I feel like that's admirable.

Through that snark and all that hacking, we can see a certain depth in Felicity by the way EBR portrays her. Felicity can be naive, headstrong, vulnerable, caring, downright scary and so much more. That's why people gravitate towards her, not just the audience but the characters as well. While the notion that Felicity can do no wrong is incorrect, that doesn't discount the fact that her character resonates with the majority of the audience. Like I said before, Felicity is by far one of the strongest characters in the series and it shows by the amount of love she gets.

LOL I'm pretty sure I made no sense. But there it is.

Edited June 1, 2014 by wonderwall

[BunsenBurner]

IMO Felicity was also the hero of the S1 finale as well. She is the one who talked Det Lance through the deactivation of the bomb while sitting in the Arrow Cave under tons of cement. She was the one to send Oliver to save Laurel. Then we get her again in S2 as the hero again? Will this happen again in S3? I would love it.

[Tangerine]

Word to your whole post @wonderwall. You've really touched on so many things on why I think Felicity works as a character. 

 

I don't really agree that Felicity is taking over the show. For the second half of S2, her and Diggle were largely sidelined with maybe a few minutes of screen time max. Diggle at least had the Suicide Squad episode, and the supposed Clock King episode which was supposed to be Felicity-centric was still largely about the Lance Family Blahma (glove tap to whoever came up with that.) 

[Morrigan2575]

I saw a post somewhere (can't remember where) with the comment that S1 was about Oliver journey towards being a hero, while S2 was Felicity's journey. I think that's a good description because Felicity's arc in S2 was really about growing stronger as a person and overcoming her fears. I mean twice in 2.01 alone we had Felicity fighting her fear of heights.

There was also her journey as a person becoming stronger both in what she believed but what she was willing to risk/do for what she believed was right.

[quarks]

Everything she does isn't perfect and I'm tired of the characters acting as if it is.

 

 

I agree with the first part of this - Felicity's made a lot of mistakes, including what in my opinion was a major one in the finale - lying to Roy. We'll see if the show follows up on that or if it's just forgotten.

 

But I can't agree with the second part. I think Felicity's been frequently criticized by several characters. Walter, Quentin, Moira, and Isabel have all verbally criticized Felicity on one level or another - Quentin even brought Felicity in for questioning. Granted, Isabel's a bad guy, but when she initially made these criticisms, the writers still hadn't decided what exactly Isabel was going to be. Laurel and Amanda Waller have both given Felicity hard or disbelieving looks. If the Bose mini episodes are canon, Roy has raised his eyebrows more than once - and within the show, Roy included Felicity in his general criticism that Team Arrow was screwing up how to handle Deathstroke. Sara, although generally supportive and friendly, told her to talk English in the Clock King episode. And Oliver has frequently yelled at Felicity - when he thinks she's not doing her job quickly enough or to his expectations, or when he disagrees with her decisions, or when she disagrees with him.

 

And Felicity has also frequently criticized herself. So, plenty of criticism here.

[BkWurm1]

I think what keeps and will keep Felicity from turning into a Lana character is that while Felicity gets praise for her skills related to computers and for her bravery, she doesn't get blind adoration from the other characters. Diggle worries about her but treats her like an equal and doesn't put her on any kind of pedestal. Oliver appreciates what she does but is very demanding of her skill, and she herself expects more and more from herself.

Sara has struck a balance with Felicity, respecting her place on the team but not fawning over her and even when Felicity took a bullet for Sara, it wasn't played like Felicity was suddenly some bad bass fighter. People don't randomly praise her beauty or fall under her spell and Felicity remains consistently written IMO, which was big problem in Lana's case. I think on the show, Felicity is not treated as special or awesome or anything like that. Most story lines don't revolve around her and rarely does she take what's going on and make it about her.

I think I as a fan am very forgiving and am probably prone to rhapsodizing over her awesomeness, but it don't think the show does.

As for the show turning into the FS show, I don't think this really will happen but Oliver has a lot of reasons to talk out his stuff with her around and in season two as his EA, she was the most logical person for him to interact with on the business side. Going into season three I expect with Oliver she will only or mostly be the Computer expert and a sounding board for him as the Arrow and not also as CEO or whatever job he takes up. (Mores the pity IMO).

I do have high hopes for Felicity to get some story lines that are just or mostly about her. And why not? Diggle has had several episodes and Laurel and Sara and Quentin and Thea and Roy and Oliver get to have scenes and story lines just about them. It's time IMO that Felicity does as well. Ideally I'd like Oliver directly involved cause it's his show, but I do think that it's time just for the sake of rounding out her character to give Felicity something of her own.

I think it's a positive sign of good characterization when the writers find a character useful and flexible enough to be used in many settings and with many characters.

Edited June 1, 2014 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

I expect we'll get Felicity's back story in the daddy issues portion of the show.  I'm torn about doing anything else with her alone because while it would be good to see her as a person with interests beyond Oliver and Team Arrow, it also means she's more tangential to the main story and we saw how well that worked for Laurel.

 

From the Bitterness thread:

 

I didn't like her interference in that situation. I see more as a clash between two characters with different agendas and opinions, though, not as someone being in the wrong while the other's a saint. But if I had to choose, I'd be on Moira's side, because I adore Moira :P However, Felicity's actions were in character - she had a good reason to be generally suspicious of Moira, and she's always been shown as too emotionally dependent on Oliver to keep a secret like that from him (much as I may dislike it).

While I did find it kind of odd that Felicity would confront Moira directly, I think she was still keeping a watch because of Moira's involvement in the Undertaking in season one.

 

Felicity didn't trust Moira, hadn't really since she first found the secret fund for Walter in s1, and then decoded Moira's book with invisible writing for him, and then Walter disappeared.  She kept a tag on the account and when there was more activity in it, she followed the money as she had the first time around because Walter had asked her to. Then she went to Walter with the information but he didn't do anything about it, since he was probably the person who had paid off the doctor in the first place.

 

Felicity's always been a 'Valiant For Truth' kind of character.  I think she went to Moira to tell her that the secret's out, She probably expected Moira to say "Yes, I need to tell Thea the truth."  But Moira is completely different from Felicity (as much as I love them both) and she threatened Felicity with what she knew would hurt her the most, having Oliver turn from her, in order to keep Felicity quiet. 

 

I see this as another time where Felicity was afraid Oliver would abandon her but overcame it to do what she thought was right.  It wasn't her place to tell Thea but she did tell Oliver, not because she's emotionally dependent on him but because telling him what she had learned was The Right Thing To Do. 

[Password]

Didn't it also link back to Felicity being the one to tell Oliver herself? He said Slade found out about Shado from Ivo and really the trust was lost then. At first I was annoyed Felicity revealed it to Oliver, but when you think about it if she didn't, and he found out she lied by omission, he wouldn't trust her. She'd be exactly what his mother is: someone who lies "to protect those she loves." She decided even though she could lose Oliver (which she did - hello Sara) she had to tell him. Felicity and Oliver's relationship is very grounded in telling the truth. It may well have been out of character for her to keep such a big secret from her partner.

 

Not to mention the annoying trope of you knew and you lied to me blah meh boring. People acting like adults on screen is great to see.

[Tangerine]

Not to mention the annoying trope of you knew and you lied to me blah meh boring. People acting like adults on screen is great to see.

 

Ugh, yes this is my absolute least favourite type of manufactured drama. The "You lied to me! How could you!" type. It's why I appreciated that Felicity told Oliver more or less right away. There are so many examples of shows where terrible things could have been avoided had people just been willing to communicate with each other. I get that you need drama for TV, but this is probably the laziest and least creative way to go about it. And it's also why I hated Oliver for keeping it from Thea. Thea's 18, she's in many ways still a child but she had every right to know. Then again, I disagreed with about 80% of the things Oliver did the second half of season 2. 

 

It wouldn't have been Felicity's place to go straight to Thea. She has no relationship with her (or at least none that we've seen at all so far) but she did have every right to tell Oliver. Frankly, the fact that she went to Moira first showed how much courtesy and respect she was willing to give to Moira on the situation.

[dtissagirl]

I really hope the writers don't forget that Felicity lied to Roy about his Mirakuru'd activities. That moment was so striking to me -- here's Felicity actively trying to protect Roy through boldface lying. Looking forward to seeing how/if that might come back to bite her once Roy learns the truth.

[Morrigan2575]

I really hope the writers don't forget that Felicity lied to Roy about his Mirakuru'd activities. That moment was so striking to me -- here's Felicity actively trying to protect Roy through boldface lying. Looking forward to seeing how/if that might come back to bite her once Roy learns the truth.

I don't think they will, the amnesia and lying storyline will play out in S3, probably in the first 3-5 episodes. I know that EBR said she hopes that Felicity will get to make mistakes and learn from them in S3 and I'm betting this will be apart of that storyline.

Maybe also her mother/father story will play into it as well?

Edited June 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575