Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[Chaser]

What if all these past stalkers are connected? They aren't stalking her in the traditional sense, but keeping track of her for her father. Because maybe the father left to get involved in danger stuff, but still wanted to make sure his girl was taken care of. To go further, maybe her father figured out what Cooper was doing in college and turned him over to the FBI/NSA to get him out of his daughter's life. It's a totally crackpot theory, but it would be kinda cool.

[Guest]

Ooooooooh yes! I like crackpot theories. Better than theorizing what's happening on the show right now.

 

I just had a thought though. In 301 Sara said she heard Felicity's transmissions with the Arrow (which was how she heard about the new Count Vertigo) and that Felicity might want to scramble or change them once in a while. What if this Cupid - clearly another stalker - heard Felicity's transmissions and therefore knows about Felicity's link to the Arrow? She'd also have heard about Roy and Diggle's link to him too.

 

There's probably no link whatsoever to Felicity but it's interesting that there's all these stalking anvils being dropped everywhere and then Oliver gets an actual stalker.

 

This is probably a little off topic, sorry.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Guest

[Chaser]

Is this Hope&Fears? 

[TanyaKay]

Honestly, I am not a fan of stalker story lines, but I will take anything if it means more Felicity.

Gimme more Felicity and I will be happy. That girl (Emily Bett Rickards) has a knack of making most cheesy & stupid shit worth watching.

[statsgirl]

Re the question of whether Felicity's sexier clothes attract the male demo, I found this:

 

Which Felicity would you rather have dinner with?

[TanyaKay]

Lolz. Geek Felicity FTW!

[foreverevolving]

So I read something in a fanfic and it made me stop and think.

The writer wrote into the fic (this is based on events surrounding season 3 so it's not an AU) that Oliver has noticed Felicity outfits have become darker and toned down in color as opposed to the bright colors she used to wear in season 1 and 2.

And it made me stop and think.. because i do think that her colors have been slightly less flashy.

 

I was wondering if anyone else have noticed this too, or maybe i'm just projecting.

[Danny Franks]

There has been a lot of references to stalking this season, especially with regards to Felicity. I know she mentioned in s2 that she had that Lacrosse player who stalked her in college but she also said she had dealt with stalkers before in 301 when talking to Ray and then her mom said something about her having to stalk her own daughter. Plus Ray actually stalked her. Is this foreshadowing?! I need to know!

 

Probably just one of the writers learned a new word.

[TwistedandBored]

I want Felicity to be part of Arrow until the final scene of the last episode but after that, I can see EBR with her own show.  Maybe they should do a reboot of Bewitched so she can bring a little Felicity to Samantha?

CW is known to reuse actresses/actors that are popular. So, it could happen. EBR would still be young. 

[fantique]

What I love about that gif is how it looks like someone who hasn't had much training. You can tell she's maybe been taught the basics (bless you Digg!) but it's not perfect. It looks real to me, spurred on by anger/fear/desperation. 

 

Plus she did it in heels. 

In heels always equals bonus points. Especially because I can imagine her thinking "Ugh... worst day ever to wear heels!"

 

So I read something in a fanfic and it made me stop and think.

The writer wrote into the fic (this is based on events surrounding season 3 so it's not an AU) that Oliver has noticed Felicity outfits have become darker and toned down in color as opposed to the bright colors she used to wear in season 1 and 2.

And it made me stop and think.. because i do think that her colors have been slightly less flashy.

 

I was wondering if anyone else have noticed this too, or maybe i'm just projecting.

I noticed it too! She also has her hair down a lot more than last season. Before, hair down meant dressing up or special occasion and now it seems to be more aligned with her professional life and Ray.

[fantique]

I actually cringed at her behavior. Accepting a date because of a dress is one thing (I can hand wave that she's into fashion, whatever) but having no reaction to the renaming of QC and then her 'Ray is inspiring' speech made me like WTF is happening. 

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was their intention. After the EP's killed Sara to make Laurel relevant because comics, I have no faith that they won't destroy everything else in their path to comic endgame. I was trying to be positive and I've always believed Ray is just a foil for Oliver/Olicity in the long run but now I'm not feeling so sure. I'm going to see if I still feel the same way after 309. 

 

 

 

The thing is, it's really not insensitive of Felicity to move on or at least try to after Oliver said he couldn't be with her. And he hasn't just said it once, he's said it twice now. And at the start when she approached Oliver and asked for the night off, it seemed like she was giving him an opening to say something and he didn't. He told her to do whatever she wanted. So I really don't blame Felicity for trying to move on, it's just who she's moving on with. Ray is my problem here and the way Felicity acts around Ray is my problem too. This was not the Felicity I know and love and yeah, I hate to say it but she did look kind of shallow. I don't think she is but that is how it looks and I think the EP's/writers really need to be careful. They're writing for plot here at the sacrifice of character.

Sob, bring her back!!!!!!!

[looptab]

From The A.V. Club:

Tv's geek girls need to rise above being tech support 

[NumberCruncher]

I think that AV Club article overstates things a bit. I think the show does a passable job showing that Felicity doesn't solely exist as the obligatory IT girl or love interest. Yes, I would love more independent storylines ala Dig and the Suicide Squad but it seems that's happening already to a certain extent with her new role as VP of Palmer Technologies. She was negotiating business deals last night (although who knows if that will continue or not).

Also, I think they've found a balance between her being the damsel vs. saving herself. She took down Deathstroke, took a bullet to save Sara, and saved herself and her mom in episode 5. It's not like she couldn't exist without Oliver being there to be her knight in shining armor. Besides, even men as competent as Diggle and Oliver have needed saving on more than a few occasions. It's the nature of the show.

[looptab]

Agreed. While reading i wondered if the author has actually ever watched the show.

[Ceylon5]

Agreed. While reading i wondered if the author has actually ever watched the show.

 

Especially since she referenced Felicity's supposed "unrequited crush on Oliver" the day after an episode which was all about how very, very requited her feelings were in a season which has showcased Oliver's feelings for her far more obviously than hers for him.  And it mentions Barry but not Ray, presumably because Ray's interest in Felicity didn't fit in with whatever point she was trying to make (which I didn't really get). While I agree with her objections to how Oliver sometimes treats Felicity, she neglects to mention how Felicity responds, and stands up for herself.  You can't cherry-pick the moments that support your argument and ignore the other 95% of the story that contradicts it, and expect your readers to take you seriously!

 

Also, this again seems to imply that women have to be written as physical fighters (ass-kickers) or there is something wrong with their characterisation.  That's such a boring way of looking at the world.  I like Felicity just fine the way she is, thanks.  Leave her to be smart and funny and brave and idealistic, and leave the ass-kicking to Nikita (I miss Nikita).

[looptab]

I think the author was trying to say that Felicity doesn't have any traits, beside being a tech wizard and the geek who pines for the lead man. But it's so superficial, as showed from her complaints about Felicity's origin episode being about hacking. As if it was just about  that. SMH

[manbearpig]

Can someone explain to me why Felicity is now VP of Queen Consolidated or Palmer whatever? Don't get me wrong, I think she can probably do the job, if she wasn't always running out to help save Starling City, but why would she get the job in the first place? She's not really qualified for that particular position, so are we supposed to assume that Ray hired her because he's a creepy stalker? We know that Felicity is intelligent and hard working, but the whole storyline has baffled me from the beginning. Spending a billion-ish dollars on the off chance that someone might agree to work for you? No.

 

I don't even care that much, and I know the most likely answer is 'eh, it's television, she needs to have a close working relationship with Ray for story reasons, so...we'll give her this position'. I mean, obviously it's no more ridiculous than Oliver becoming CEO after dropping out of every college he went to and then spend years fearing for his life on the island, Hong Kong, and wherever else, but he was also the worst CEO ever and proved he wasn't really the person for the job anyway. But then his name was on the building, so...

[KenyaJ]

I think the writers were a bit careless in having Ray refer to Felicity as "the VP of Palmer Industries," as opposed to "the VP of [fill in the black]."  It appears that Felicity isn't working in IT, but is doing whatever special projects Ray needs her to do. At most companies being brought in for such a specialized purpose is enough to get a VP title. So I don't have to suspend any belief that she's VP of Whatever Extraordinary Needs Ray Has. I just wish the writers were more precise about describing her position.

[tv echo]

You have to do a lot of hand-waving on this show... that's one of its major flaws.  But Felicity being a VP at Palmer Technologies (esp. when she's been shown to be a computer genius person) - and large corporations usually have more than one VP - is more feasible than 18-year-old Thea successfully running Verdant on her own last year (and this year) or Laurel being made Acting DA over more senior ADAs after only being an ADA for about a year.  As for Oliver being made CEO of Queen Consolidated, that's not completely unrealistic since he is a Queen scion and it was shown that he was clearly unqualified to do that job.  It would've been ridiculous only if he had been successful in running QC.

Edited November 20, 2014 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, I agree it's laziness on the part of the writers. As others have mentioned both here and in the episode thread there are usually multiple VP titles within a corporate structure. Most likely she's VP of Information Technology or VP of Development, but they just haven't specified so that the storylines can allow her to be Ray's everywoman.

Especially since she referenced Felicity's supposed "unrequited crush on Oliver" the day after an episode which was all about how very, very requited her feelings were in a season which has showcased Oliver's feelings for her far more obviously than hers for him.  And it mentions Barry but not Ray, presumably because Ray's interest in Felicity didn't fit in with whatever point she was trying to make (which I didn't really get). While I agree with her objections to how Oliver sometimes treats Felicity, she neglects to mention how Felicity responds, and stands up for herself.  You can't cherry-pick the moments that support your argument and ignore the other 95% of the story that contradicts it, and expect your readers to take you seriously!

Yeah, I didn't get the "unrequited" argument either. It was requited the moment Oliver kissed her in the hallway. He admitted he loved her. That no longer makes it a starry-eyed crush. The author's premise is further shot down by the fact that Felicity then walks away when Oliver won't step up to the plate on a relationship.

[GirlWednesday]

I have been commenting on our Felicity a lot in the latest episode thread but i wanted to come in here and say that.

Of all the team arrowers, Felicity is the only one with two full time jobs. Everyone just does their thing until the next mission but Felicity is actively living two very separate lives! And both of her lives are asking a lot of attention. Obviously our girl is totally brillant so she is managing it fine

but I Am sure that there is a direct conflict coming up soon. Hopefully Not Ray versus oliver loyalty thing but doing good publicly versus secret hero. So she can decide what is more important, being brillant at her techy things and challenging herself intellectually OR being a hero. Hopefully that's saved for next season!

Although her arc is the same as Oliver's this season. Vigilante or person- or both. But only difference is that Oliver chose secret hero whereas Felicity is choosing both lives.

Edited November 20, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[Password]

That's a very good point actually and may well play into the Identity theme this season. She did say hacktivism was her first foray into heroism but now through Ray, she can really do her thing in a completely legal setting.

Agh the more I learn the more I want Miss Smoak.

[calliope1975]

The one thing Arrow has done really well is show me Felicity Smoak developing into a hero. I've complained about others journeys that have been rushed and handed to them, but hers has been laid out in front of me in a believable, realistic manner, and I love it. I give so much credit to EBR for making Felicity such a real person even when the writing didn't support that. I hope to continue to watch her meet her destiny.

[wonderwall]

So apparently there's been a lot of Felicity hate regarding the last episode on various media sites like twitter. And she's being called a 'gold digging whore' and now she apparently doesn't deserve Oliver... Is that true? If so, man, the double standards in this fandom is really getting out of hand. lmao I mean what's a girl supposed to do after she gets turned down for the second time? 

[apinknightmare]

So apparently there's been a lot of Felicity hate regarding the last episode on various media sites like twitter. And she's being called a 'gold digging whore' and now she apparently doesn't deserve Oliver... Is that true? If so, man, the double standards in this fandom is really getting out of hand. lmao I mean what's a girl supposed to do after she gets turned down for the second time? 

 

Try the third or fourth time, haha. Luckily I haven't seen any of that if it's out there. Not surprised that it would be, though.

[Velocity23]

 

I want Emilys butt! All i have to say!

[tv echo]

So apparently there's been a lot of Felicity hate regarding the last episode on various media sites like twitter. And she's being called a 'gold digging whore' and now she apparently doesn't deserve Oliver... Is that true? If so, man, the double standards in this fandom is really getting out of hand. lmao I mean what's a girl supposed to do after she gets turned down for the second time? 

Yeah... that was inevitable.  I can't imagine who's leading the charge on that (rolls eyes).  Felicity's been the most celibate character on Arrow in the past two years, and wanted to date Oliver even after he lost his money, home and company.  Real logical.

[GirlWednesday]

There are lots of stuff I can whine about but one thing I have confidence in is that EPs and the network realize the value of Felicity so all the negative press of being a gold digger.. what little faith I have in these producers, its all faith on them knowing what they have created.  Character that is a GEM and is played with such soul by a future breakout star.   So I'm cautiously optimistic about ignoring this negative press about our girl.

 

One thing I realized after this week.  I don't care about OTP of the show.  I like Felicity first and Olicity second.  Oliver can go on a LOA vacay all he wants, BC can become as badass as the writers rush her to be but as long as they give Felicity great moments to shine and develop as a real character and not a caricature.  I'll support the show!

[allonsyalice]

 

One thing I realized after this week.  I don't care about OTP of the show.  I like Felicity first and Olicity second.  Oliver can go on a LOA vacay all he wants, BC can become as badass as the writers rush her to be but as long as they give Felicity great moments to shine and develop as a real character and not a caricature.  I'll support the show!

I feel this. Honestly, to me, Felicity is the star of the show, and although I like the other characters, I don't particularly care about them the way I do her. She is the only reason why I'm still watching, to be fully honest. 

[TanyaKay]

For a lot of people, Felicity is the Star including me - but I like Oliver as well - but I like the Oliver he is around Felicity and not the Oliver around any of the Lance sisters.

We all loved the episode with Mama Smoak, I think it would be great if they randomly insert a line or two about her. Like her talking to her mom when she enters the lair or getting a text from her mother where her mother calls her afterwards to check if she actually send the text or Felicity randomly telling Diggle that her mom was sending live for little Digglet or something before she bring her on again.

[patchwork]

I had to check the date on that article because the information was so outdated, unrequited? Yeah right. Their sample of good female characters reeked of Strong Woman trope.

 

As much as I love Mama Smoak, that we will never have a Donna/Moira scene hurts my soul, I would find it a bit weird if Felicity all of a sudden starts bringing her up because it's something she's avoided for years. But that Felicity/Diggle scene might have been a lot more tolerable if he's opened with something which hinted that he'd kept in touch with Donna.   

[TanyaKay]

why would Diggle stay in touch with Donna? They barely exchanged hellos.

 

I mentioned that her Mom may ask about Digglet considering she baby sat him for a few hours and she is into babies.

 

Yes, she has not mentioned her before but I guess that was deliberate on her part - keeping the family and Team Arrow separate. Now that everyone barring Riy has met her, Felicity does not need to keep mum about her mother anymore. Before episode 3x05, she was embarrassed but her opinion of her mother changed before she left Starling and they were on good terms, when something like that happens, you mention your parent, esp when she is your only family.

[JenMcSnark]

Moved to the media thread.  I forgot there was one.  

Edited November 23, 2014 by JenMcSnark

[BkWurm1]

From the "Draw Back Your Bow" episode thread. 

 

I really liked Felicity when she first appeared on the show but now, I can't stand her. I hate her lack of loyalty. She does not have "staying" power in my opinion. How long has she known Oliver?  One year at the most.

 

I assume the timeline mention is about believing she gave up on Oliver too soon?  Maybe the idea that she should be willing to wait quietly longer for him to get his act together? 

 

Of course it has actually been more than two years and by the show's timeline, she waited silently for the last 5-6 months not pushing, not demanding anything after Oliver told her he loved her and then by his actions said, "Made you look!" only for him to take back his take back by not affirming that it was all just an act. 

 

The kicker is I absolutely believe that had Oliver given her a timeline or some steps he felt he needed to take before he thought they could be together, I honestly do believe based on everything we know about Felicity that she would be patient and understanding and willing to wait, but Oliver isn't saying wait for me and we will be together. 

 

Oliver is saying 'I wont' be with you now, I can't imagine that changing, I expect to die a quick brutal death after living a short brutal life devoid of even striving for any kind of happiness.  Want to devote your life to watching me waiting for death while shutting you out? '

 

Quote
She is weak. When things get tough and SHE has to fight for what she wants, she doesn't.

 

 

I again am guessing, but I assume the idea here would be for Felicity to try to convince Oliver to change his mind?  I can see that point in theory but I think Felicity knows Oliver well enough to know when there is nothing she can just say to convince him to change his mind.

 

He's telling her that he loves her and even showing her that it is killing him not to be with her but he's resolute in his belief he shouldn't be with her, that he can't be both vigilante and man.  He's said his vows to his hood; love and any kind of life not focused on his mission can't be allowed ( except for blood ties he can't sever ).  

 

The path of least resistance for Felicity would be to go back to hoping something will change and Oliver will discover that all that he holds sacred and true don't mean anything but I have to think that falls under the definition for insanity...to go back to doing the same things and hoping that this time something will turn out differently.

 

I think it took far more strength for Felicity to walk away and break the holding pattern Oliver would have her return to.  She refused to enable Oliver's path as it pertains to her. She remains dedicated to the mission which comes with the inherent risk of the ultimate sacrifice.  She's not running away because she could be hurt or killed or Oliver could be hurt or killed, but she refuses to sit patiently and wait for death.  She's chosen to have a full and meaningful life and is willing to hope and believe in a future. 

 

Nothing Felicity has done says to me that she doesn't want Oliver in that future but she can't force him to live outside of the mask, that is a choice he has to make on his own but she's not going to make him choosing not to live easier.  She's leading by example.  She is trying to have it all and while everyone knows getting it all is a pipe dream (everything requires shifting priorities, sacrifice and balance) it is the striving for that full life that really matters. 

 

She is in a big way fighting for the future she wants by not just sitting and hoping Oliver has some kind of revelation.  She's showing Oliver what he is missing and it's not to be cruel or manipulative; it's IMO exactly the opposite.  She's been very open and transparent about what she wants in her life and yes she maybe vulnerable to rebounding with Ray but Oliver has given her zero reason to think she has any other options.

 

 I really do not believe she told Oliver anything regarding the re-branding of his families legacy.  She went from believing Ray was a creepy stalker to giving him a hero speech at dinner. I don't know I could go on but at this point, she kind-of just completely sucks.

 

 

I choose to believe Oliver did know ahead of time because there is no reasonable reason why she wouldn't have mentioned it ahead of time.  The only reason I could fathom why she wouldn't have is if we are to believe she believes Oliver has absolutely zero interest in his old company and zero feelings about an institution that his family built and that under his watch, was virtually destroyed. 

 

I actually could believe Felicity thought this if we'd had any kind of scene about her job and work between Felicity and Oliver but we haven't so I'm going to assume she would have broke the news ahead of time, at the very least to Diggle to tell him.  Now I also am left to guess how Oliver would have reacted to being warned ahead of time.  Chances are he would have pretended he didn't mind at all.  Of course it's just speculation but so it that Felicity didn't tell him at all.  Since that would be wildly OOC and since the show didn't think it was important enough to show I default to what the characters would have done based on what we know about them from the past and not assume the worst. 

 

Then there is the Ray issue. No, we never saw when or why she would suddenly be a big believer in Ray and HIS mission but I don't find it disloyal for a person to believe in two separate people.  Ray and Oliver's missions are not at odds with each other.  Both are trying to be a force for good and that is something Felicity passionately believes in. 

 

She hasn't chose one over the other.  We instead saw her striving to balance the demands and needs of both.  Yes she went to her business dinner but she made her skills available to Team Arrow as needed during that dinner.  Oliver would have preferred that she always be there with no other obligations in her life but that would mean not having anything else in her life.

 

And Oliver basically promised her that no matter how much time and care she devotes to Team Arrow, one day soon it will all be over with him dead on the slab just like Sara leaving Felicity alone with nothing ...nothing except for whatever life she can fashion outside of the basement of The Verdant.  Working for Palmer is about holding on to her sanity and surviving a decidedly grim future. 

 

She refuses to abandon Oliver but she won't jump on his funeral pyre.  She sets aside her quiet dreams and chooses life,  even though it is the harder path to travel, but that doesn't mean she isn't hoping deep inside that Oliver wakes up and makes the same choice.

 

No, she can't keep him company in the dark because she needs to be the light Oliver is striving to reach. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

After the way Felicity willingly risked her life to get close to Slade and then jabbed him with the syringe, I'll never see her as weak.

Edited November 23, 2014 by tv echo

[Danny Franks]

I guess the summation of the counter-argument would be, when has she ever actively tried to get him to see things from her point of view? From what I've seen, she complained a bit about him vacillating, and then decided, 'girl's moving on!' So I've said before, it seems many interpret that as strength, while it's also seen as her protecting herself. How can it be both things?

 

Conversely, the idea that she tries to fight for him to change his mind is seen as weak, but has also been described as the thing she might do if she were 'braver' and not hurt by abandonment issues. What it ultimately boils down to, as far as I can tell, is a point by point retread of Boy Wins Girl. Where she has to do nothing but occasionally appear bothered by the fact he's a martyr, and look like she's moving on with another guy. The onus is all on Oliver to 'fix' himself and become worthy of her. Even though she's supposed to have her own issues (abandonment), no one says that she has to get over them and realise that fighting for what you want, instead of meekly accepting the other person's decision, is even an option.

 

This isn't about her being a loyal Team Arrow member, because that is completely separate from their romantic connection (or it should be). She can be brave and resourceful and loyal and steadfast as Oliver's partner, but none of that really has much to do with whether they're prepared to build on their feelings for one another.

 

So the underlying thread is, 'she wants him, but not enough to actually take a chance. He wants her, but not enough to compromise'. Eh. Where does this get romantic?

Edited November 23, 2014 by Danny Franks

[BkWurm1]

when has she ever actively tried to get him to see things from her point of view?

 

 

'she wants him, but not enough to actually take a chance.

 

I guess my counter, counter argument would be what could she possibly say to change his mind that hasn't already been said? She's IMO fairly well expressed her disagreement with Oliver's position.  She may not have used a lot of words but Oliver knew she didn't want him to walk away from them.  How do you argue with someone that says he loves you so he's not going to get involved with you? 

 

We could have had a scene with Felicity throwing logic at him but what is she going to say...just don't love me so much?  Everything else is all about Oliver and his perceptions.  Truthfully in real life I think Felicity would have bashed her head against Oliver's rock hard head before accepting she couldn't change his mind.  Instead we got to see her hear Oliver stubbornly spell out it's my way or the highway to his other partner.  Diggle was her stand in.  It's IMO a TV shortcut to just fast forward to the end result.

 

I also think though that she is doing more than just moving on.  I do think her actions say something important or at least make a counter argument that you can't have both a life in and out of the lair.  

 

I'm also not sure what she could do that would constitute taking a chance.  it seems to me that just waiting and hoping is the doing nothing and putting it all on the hero, hoping he comes to his senses.  At least in moving on, she is offering another path for him to follow. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Betweenthisandthat]

So the underlying thread is, 'she wants him, but not enough to actually take a chance. He wants her, but not enough to compromise'. Eh. Where does this get romantic?

 

Which is probably why it feels to me like things are both moving too fast and yet nothing is happening.  We get all these feelings they have for each other all of a sudden in my opinion and then she's moving on and he's already let her go or something.  I don't know.  I don't really find Felicity the star of the show since I was drawn a lot of other things about the show in the first season and would never want other characters to step aside to that Felicity gets all the limelight, but I do like Felicity more than Oliver at the moment.  I suppose I appreciate the fact that she is the only one "doing something."  I can't say that I'm completely on her side because I found her OOC for me since the first episode of the season.  Oliver's become a bit too absorbed in his own issues for me to care about.  If anything I care more about him fixing himself than him fixing himself for Felicity.  That's what I'm starting to dislike about this story and how cliched it is.  I hate the idea that he can only be viable if he's around her and vice versa.  I want to get back to the idea where he's trying to save the city and now also himself - with the help of his friends - because he values himself.

 

The only thing I do "like' is that Felicity is trying to save herself for herself.  She's placing some value on who she is.  At least that's what I hope is happening, otherwise it's a fail on all sides, Felicity and Oliver's.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[Danny Franks]

I guess my counter, counter argument would be what could she possibly say to change his mind that hasn't already been said? She's IMO fairly well expressed her disagreement with Oliver's position.  She may not have used a lot of words but Oliver knew she didn't want him to walk away from them.  How do you argue with someone that says he loves you so he's not going to get involved with you? 

 

 

What has she said? From what I've seen, all the talking on the date wasl Oliver telling her how great he thinks she is, and then Oliver telling her afterwards that he can't be the Arrow and have a girlfriend.

 

What arguments has she mustered to counter that? Has she told him it's a load of BS and there could be a million reasons for him to lose focus on any given day, and that the danger of being his partner is one she accepts, and that he needs to respect her choice on that? Has she told him that she wants to be with him and she believes they can make it work, if he'll only sack up and be the man she knows he can be? Has she told him it's unfair that he gets to make unilateral decisions about them, and she wants a chance to prove that his decision is completely ass-backwards? Has she just told him that he's just flat out wrong, and needs to pull his head out of his backside? She doesn't have to wait and hope, she can tell him, 'sack up, mister. Get your shit together because I love you.' What's so terrible about that?

 

If she does that, and he's still a gloomy gus, wanting to hide in the dark because girls have weakness cooties that might ruin his aim, then she can move on.

 

Not using a lot of words and just silently looking morose is a waste of time. She knows plenty of words, she should try using them, instead of frowning when he's not around. It works better. But then, if she did, he'd have no actual counter to them, so the angst-fest would be dissolved. Which is, I guess, why she is the prize he'll win, rather than the protagonist who will win.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Danny Franks

[BkWurm1]

What has she said? From what I've seen, all the talking on the date wasl Oliver telling her how great he thinks she is, and then Oliver telling her afterwards that he can't be the Arrow and have a girlfriend.

 

What arguments has she mustered to counter that? Has she told him it's a load of BS and there could be a million reasons for him to lose focus on any given day, and that the danger of being his partner is one she accepts, and that he needs to respect her choice on that? Has she told him that she wants to be with him and she believes they can make it work, if he'll only sack up and be the man she knows he can be? Has she told him it's unfair that he gets to make unilateral decisions about them, and she wants a chance to prove that his decision is completely ass-backwards? Has she just told him that he's just flat out wrong, and needs to pull his head out of his backside? She doesn't have to wait and hope, she can tell him, 'sack up, mister. Get your shit together because I love you.' What's so terrible about that?

 

 

That's where Diggle was used as her stand in, a way for the show to cheat and have the same basic argument with two people at once without having to show it.  Diggle made it clear that it was his choice and a risk he was willing to take and that they could work it out and Oliver shut all of that down.  All that is left is Oliver's wacky claim that she make him lose his focus and that is his belief and is something that he has to work through, not something she can use logic to change his mind since it isn't based on logic to begin with.   Getting the actual scene between Oliver and Felicity would have been satisfying, but  it would have mostly been a retread IMO of what we and the characters already knew. 

 

I guess the one thing Felicity didn't do was say she loved him.  Her actions did but she didn't say the words.  Not saying them could be seen as saving face but I think her heart was already on her sleeve and clearly Oliver knew he could in that moment snap his fingers and she would be his - there is not much to hide behind there.  In this case, what Felicity feels or wants really has nothing to do with Oliver's choice.  Her not throwing her love in his face was actually quite kind of her, perhaps kinder than he deserved.  She didn't make his hang ups about her, she didn't burden him with more guilt. She begged him to stop dangling maybes, to stop stringing her along.  In the end he couldn't help himself so she had to end the vicious cycle by walking away.

[BkWurm1]

Not using a lot of words and just silently looking morose is a waste of time. She knows plenty of words, she should try using them, instead of frowning when he's not around. It works better. But then, if she did, he'd have no actual counter to them, so the angst-fest would be dissolved. Which is, I guess, why she is the prize he'll win, rather than the protagonist who will win

 

I have no doubt that all the arguments and logic and or impassioned emotional appeals would have fallen on stubborn, deaf ears an the angst fest would have gone on from there except the show would have spent an hour retreading what the audience has already figured out.

 

About the question of protagonist, Oliver still gets that title on the show and it is his issues that are driving the problem so I don't have a problem with Oliver being the one that needs to solve them and then win. 

[Danny Franks]

I have no doubt that all the arguments and logic and or impassioned emotional appeals would have fallen on stubborn, deaf ears an the angst fest would have gone on from there except the show would have spent an hour retreading what the audience has already figured out.

 

So it's back to, "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas". Yes, maybe it would have the same end result of Oliver saying they can't be together. But she doesn't know that for sure until she tries, and she didn't try. This 'vicious cycle' lasted for less than a single episode, didn't it? It was non-existent for the whole of season 2, because Felicity never seemed to harbour ideas that they could be together until the finale, so much so that she thought Oliver asking her on a date was a joke. Not exactly long-suffering or tormented. It just smacks of multiple writing shortcuts and laziness, where they want to drop in lines like "stop dangling maybes" without ever showing that happening.

 

That's where Diggle was used as her stand in, a way for the show to cheat and have the same basic argument with two people at once without having to show it.  Diggle made it clear that it was his choice and a risk he was willing to take and that they could work it out and Oliver shut all of that down.

 

 

Diggle saying it and Felicity saying it are not the same thing, though. He isn't in love with Diggle, so it's easier to ignore what he says. Then you have Felicity telling Diggle (but not Oliver, naturally) that she wants to hear Oliver say it's a mistake. But she won't tell Oliver that she thinks he's making a mistake. Because that makes her a doormat, or something. It's all so artificial, and I have to believe there really is a TV Writers' Guide to Angst-Driven Romance out there somewhere, that these guys are photocopying and inserting into scripts, page by page.

 

Stupid stuff like the character who always said more than she meant to is now silent when she needs to speak, and conveniently has bolted on insecurities about abandonment to hide behind, or on Castle when the guy who proved to be incredible at reading people was suddenly unable to see jealousy or love when it was written plain on someone's face, and the woman who made a living from being bright and observant, was just as blind. These storylines rely on character sabotage, and I that annoys me so much From what I've read, the only one in the whole show being true to themselves is Oliver, in that he's a manpain enduring, emotionally bottled up douchenozzle at the best of times. But that characterisation works perfectly for the story they want to tell, which is lucky for them.

[wonderwall]

I feel like in order to truly understand Felicity's arc this season you have to read between the lines and dig deeper and put yourself in her shoes whereas you don't really have to do this for other characters this season (like Laurel, Diggle, Roy, Oliver whose arcs are clearly written and more explicit). I think this is why I've been seeing a lot more Felicity hate recently, some people just take her arc at face value. If I were to do so, then yeah, I would probably be annoyed at Felicity as well. And this is kind of a shame. They're making Felicity make leaps and bounds in terms of character development but the focus isn't on this, the focus is on other things like Laurel becoming BC. We don't get Felicity's POV, we don't get to see Felicity hurting (unless you watched episode 4 of Flash)... It's so sad that some of the audience will miss this development. I wish they would offer more character moments for Felicity because I really want to know what's going on in her head. Alas, I don't think this will really happen. 

[statsgirl]

I guess the summation of the counter-argument would be, when has she ever actively tried to get him to see things from her point of view? From what I've seen, she complained a bit about him vacillating, and then decided, 'girl's moving on!' So I've said before, it seems many interpret that as strength, while it's also seen as her protecting herself. How can it be both things?

I've complained about this season a lot but I think they got this right in the last episode.

 

You didn't see her arguing her case but in The Calm you did see her doing girlfriend things, buying him a fern and that infamous bed, running through his speech for QC, encouraging him, and dating him. And then he seizes on the first excuse he can to shut her down and out of his personal life

 

 

Has she told him it's a load of BS

No, but Diggle did a number of times and it got him nowhere.  If Diggle, his mentor and comrade-at-arms can't make Oliver see he's being an idiot, then nothing Felicity says will.  (I do think Oliver will listen to Diggle before he'll listen to anyone else, especially about something  like this.)  Oliver even pushed away Sara when he thought she was in danger from Slade by being with him.

 

In Draw Back Your Bow, Felicity basically got denied thrice.  The first was when she told Oliver that she was going to a business dinner with Ray, hoping he would tell her what he later told Diggle, that it bothered him that she's dating Ray Palmer.  But what he told her is "do what you want', i.e. I don't care enough what you do to be upset by your seeing another man.  Later Diggle came to see her and told her that they both know that Oliver is making the wrong decision but that he's rather go ten rounds with the League of Assassins (foreshadowing!) then talk about his emotions aka Oliver is not going to budge even though Diggle has talked to him.  Then after the dinner when she went back to the lair to do tech for them, she hears Oliver tell Cupid that he can't be with anyone.

 

The thing about Oliver is that he makes Gibraltar seem crumbly. When he gets an idea into his head, the only thing that makes him change it is someone dying.  What could Felicity say after that? Nothing that would make him change his mind.  He wants her in his life but he wants it his way, having her around whenever he wants her but not giving her anything emotionally, and he's not moving.  It's been two months since the date and he's giving her nothing, while forming relationships with Thea and Roy.

 

No arguments about feelings are going to reach Oliver.  That's why he had to see the kiss.  He's a visual learner.

[calliope1975]

I do think Felicity could have said more to counter Oliver's stubborness, but I don't think it would have ultimately made any difference because none of this relationship seems based on character to me. The writers want to stall the pairing. Yes, Oliver has a boatload of issues and those should be addressed. Felicity has her own baggage that the audience sees but I'm not sure if it's intentional on the writers' part because they suck. 

 

Anyhoo, my issue is a stupid nitpick - what happened to Felicity's scar? She was so proud of it and now it's gone. They do such a good job of keeping track of Oliver's scars and tats that I thought they wouldn't forget about hers. I was wrong.

[TwistedandBored]

I really don't get how Felicity can be blamed for not persuading or arguing Oliver about something he decided. When has that ever worked? Every time he got something in head it took a lot to changed it. Besides, Oliver is not a child. He is a grown man who can make his own decisions. 

[BkWurm1]

So it's back to, "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas". Yes, maybe it would have the same end result of Oliver saying they can't be together. But she doesn't know that for sure until she tries, and she didn't try.

 

 

 

Diggle saying it and Felicity saying it are not the same thing, though. He isn't in love with Diggle, so it's easier to ignore what he says. Then you have Felicity telling Diggle (but not Oliver, naturally) that she wants to hear Oliver say it's a mistake

 

 

Then you have Felicity telling Diggle (but not Oliver, naturally) that she wants to hear Oliver say it's a mistake. But she won't tell Oliver that she thinks he's making a mistake. Because that makes her a doormat, or something. It's all so artificial, and I have to believe there really is a TV Writers' Guide to Angst-Driven Romance out there somewhere, that these guys are photocopying and inserting into scripts, page by page.

 

 

By TV rules, his conversation with Diggle does count.  Even in real life I'd be hard pressed to deny it when he holds that conversation right in front of Felicity.  Everything she would have said, all her arguments she would have made, he squashed them preemptively.  Oliver very deliberately made that choice.  He choose to have that conversation then and there right in the thick of things, killing two birds with one stone.  In real life some people have the same argument over and over and over before realizing it's hopeless  but that's one soap opera line Arrow doesn't cross. 

 

I also think in this case it isn't a question of not bothering to expend any effort or coming up with an idea since the problem is one that does not have a solution other than Oliver reversing his sudden stubborn stance.  This in not a misunderstanding that can be solved with a simple conversation.  The rift exists because Oliver and Felicity right now are diametrically opposed to the others deep seated philosophical beliefs. 

 

This isn't Castle getting his feelings hurt because Becket faked not hearing him saying he loved her after she got shot. Felicity isn't silently trying to make Oliver suffer by reverting to some partygirl persona, jetting off to waste money and pick up dumb, hot flight attendants, flaunting them directly under Oliver's nose. 

 

Felicity isn't being stubborn or pigheaded or blind when she tells Diggle that she wants to hear it from Oliver if he has a problem, because Oliver's feelings are not and have not been the issue.  Unless he chooses to say something, nothings changed.  

 

This 'vicious cycle' lasted for less than a single episode, didn't it? It was non-existent for the whole of season 2, because Felicity never seemed to harbour ideas that they could be together until the finale, so much so that she thought Oliver asking her on a date was a joke. Not exactly long-suffering or tormented. It just smacks of multiple writing shortcuts and laziness, where they want to drop in lines like "stop dangling maybes" without ever showing that happening.

 

 

I'd say Oliver started dangling maybe one day as far back as the Russia episode.  Even if we only count from when he pulled the not fake I love you, the maybe was dangled for the 5-6 months off screen, that's still a long time -  not for the audience but for the characters. 

 

 

Stupid stuff like the character who always said more than she meant to is now silent when she needs to speak,

 

 

Interestingly enough this is one area where I don't think Felicity has been out of character at all.  She talks a lot, but she does not talk a lot about important things.  She actually has a great deal of difficulty in discussing deeply personal things.  She's said enough to make Oliver understand where he stands with her, but she's not going to go on and on and on.  It isn't her way. 

[TanyaKay]

 

I'd say Oliver started dangling maybe one day as far back as the Russia episode.  Even if we only count from when he pulled the not fake I love you, the maybe was dangled for the 5-6 months off screen, that's still a long time -  not for the audience but for the characters. 

 

 

Yes, he was dangling may bes even when he was with another girl.

 

Remember Oliver cupping Felicity's face and telling her, "you will always be my girl Felicity." That was a one big fat dangling may be - some time in future when I am done with the chick I am currently dating - and no one can convince me otherwise because Oliver Queen does not randomly throws lines like that.

[BkWurm1]

Yes, he was dangling may bes even when he was with another girl.

 

Remember Oliver cupping Felicity's face and telling her, "you will always be my girl Felicity." That was a one big fat dangling may be - some time in future when I am done with the chick I am currently dating - and no one can convince me otherwise because Oliver Queen does not randomly throws lines like that.

I can't disagree.  I do think that Oliver was not as aware of what he was doing when t was happening.  He was just feeling and reacting and words and actions kept coming out.  But he doesn't have the same excuses now.  Of course the only one he needs is he's thickheaded.

[Danny Franks]

Felicity isn't being stubborn or pigheaded or blind when she tells Diggle that she wants to hear it from Oliver if he has a problem, because Oliver's feelings are not and have not been the issue.  Unless he chooses to say something, nothings changed.

 

Didn't Oliver start talking about how he felt about her in the super special Felicity episode? And she shut him down and left? That seems pretty pigheaded to me. If she wanted to actually address the issue, she should have told him right then to either man up or shut up. Was he changing his mind? Who knows, because she never asked.

 

I'd say Oliver started dangling maybe one day as far back as the Russia episode.  Even if we only count from when he pulled the not fake I love you, the maybe was dangled for the 5-6 months off screen, that's still a long time -  not for the audience but for the characters.

 

 

Is a message received if it's not understood? There is no way that Felicity realised he might have meant her when he talked about that in the Russia episode, so how can that be a maybe that she recognised as being dangled?

 

As for him telling her "you'll always be my girl"? She said it first, and she was clearly seeking some sort of affirmation. I suppose he could have just smiled tightly and said nothing, or said, 'shut up, Felicity, you're high', but something tells me those would have been considered even greater crimes against Felicity.

 

Interestingly enough this is one area where I don't think Felicity has been out of character at all.  She talks a lot, but she does not talk a lot about important things.  She actually has a great deal of difficulty in discussing deeply personal things.  She's said enough to make Oliver understand where he stands with her, but she's not going to go on and on and on.  It isn't her way.

 

 

By the sounds of it, she's doing the same thing that all female love interests do in this trope. Exactly the same things. Refusing to ask, ignoring any opportunities to talk, 'moving on' and finding a new, improved, carbon copy love interest.

 

It's kind of hilarious to me that the idea of Felicity saying anything at all to try and get what she wants is being interpreted as "going on and on and on" or "waiting around pathetically". 'She can't do anything to change Oliver's mind'. She hasn't tried, and if she won't try, then how important can it really be to her? This is such a weird inversion of feminism that only really exists in dumb TV shows, as far as I can tell. The guy has to do all the work, and has to win the girl, and she has to do nothing at all except wait for him to fix everything.