Thea Queen: Speedy

[foreverevolving]

Bringing this over from the spoiler thread:

I feel like you guys a missing the bigger picture in relations to Thea and Malcolm.

Yes it's hard to swallow the idea that she will want to associate herself with him, and to even call him dad.

What we need to do is not look just at Thea season 3, but at Thea from the beginning of the show and even before that. When the show started, even with Walter being around!, it was painfully obvious (and hack even Oliver himself pointed out) Thea was in a desperate need for someone to parent her. We were told that this behavior has been going around for a few years now. Technically speaking Thea is still a teenager, therefore she is bound to make very stupid decisions based on her emotions.

Thea may love Walter, but he will never be her father. It's cliche but, blood is thicker than water sometimes. Also i am not 100% suree Malcolm was a total stranger, she probably met him when he came over to the Queen's house for dinners - since we are assumed to believe he and Robert were friends. So she had some interaction with him for the first decade or so of her life.

As i mentioned, Thea started the show as a rebellious teenager with little to absolute none parental guidance. We are told that both Moira and Robert treated Oliver the same way at her age. We are also told that when Robert and Oliver died Moira pretty much lost herself to the grief which led to her not being mother Thea needed, and even when's Walter pulled her out of it she still was not the mother Thea needed. And I'm sorry, but we saw little evidence that Walter was an active step father, he may have been there in the house, Thea may love him and I'm sure he love her, but he obviously did not take an active role in parenting her. Which is find, we need to remember that he probably only became her step father when she was in her mid teens. You take on a very different step parent role at that age than you would if you became that child step parent at a younger age. However when the child acts up and their parent is not stepping up it should be your duty to do so. Thea behavior was not for fun, it was for pure attention she wanted to be noticed, to be disciplined. She wanted Moira to behave like her mom, and Walter to behave like a dad (even if biologically he wasn't).

And than all hell breaks loose. Moira and Walter divorce and Walter leaves- Thea may agree with his decision but inside of her, that little girl who lost Robert is broken hearted but once again she has lost another parent- and we were given no info from Thea that Walter has kept in touch with her on any level; than all of the sudden she finds out Malcolm is her biological father, Moira is killed and then she discovers that Roy has lied to her too, and "Hey! Holy crap! I'm no longer an orphan, one of my parents is still alive! And he came to save me". In Thea head, through her emotions- everyone except Malcolm has lied to her and have treated her like a nuisance of sorts, an after thought. And here is Malcolm, offering her essentially everything she needed since Robert died- someone to tell her what to do, someone who will guide her.

That has been Thea arc since the second we saw her on screen, she is a lost girl who wants someone to guide her and be there for her, who will not hide the truth from her. Thea entire arc on Arrow is the pain of growing up and realizing that our parents are humans, (in Thea's case one is a murdering psycho) and that she's the one who holds the power to guide herself to happiness.

But she's still learning. Thea is still holding onto that little frightening heart-broken girl who lost her daddy and then gained him again only in the form of someone else.

I look at Thea and I sympathize because I've been through a painfully similar experience (minus the murdering parents and discovering my dad isn't my dad biologically). I understand her actions because i can understand where the emotions are coming from.

[tv echo]

I can't get past the fact that Malcolm is the one responsible for Robert's death and indirectly for Moira's death.  Why would you bond with your beloved parents' murderer?

Edited February 10, 2015 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

 

I've been through a painfully similar experience (minus the murdering parents

That is kind of a ginormous factor to leave out.  Your issues with your parents sound entirely normal, but Thea's in a different situation, in that her biological father is literally a mass murderer.  And worse, because mass murder may feel like a statistic, he's an intentional, targeted murderer of at least one person (Robert) Thea actually loved.  I haven't liked her since S1, when she was obnoxiously pushing an obviously traumatized Oliver to tell her everything that happened (seriously, nearly everyone he knew, including McKenna, tried to get him to spill, which I found very obnoxious), but she's pretty much unbearable now.  For me, her only saving grace is that I like WH and think she's unbelievably pretty.

[statsgirl]

foreverevolving, I agree with much of what you said.  It's like season 1 and season 2B Thea though.  She's  pretty self-centered, which made sense when she was 18 but not so much now.  Malcolm is good to her and pays a ton of attention to her as well as a lot of money, he saved her from the mirakuru soldiers when the rest of her family didn't care (in her mind -- the real reason is she flounced off and they thought she was out of town) so therefore he must be a good guy,

 

Sometimes when children go through a trauma, they remain emotionally fixated at the age of the trauma.  (This is why I have more sympathy for Thea than for Laurel because Laurel was 22 when the boat went down.)  So emotionally, parts of Thea remain stuck at age 12.  It's made more difficult because Oliver tends to treat her like she's still 12,  "protecting" her from the truth about Robert, about himself and about Malcolm.

[foreverevolving]

That is kind of a ginormous factor to leave out. Your issues with your parents sound entirely normal, but Thea's in a different situation, in that her biological father is literally a mass murderer. And worse, because mass murder may feel like a statistic, he's an intentional, targeted murderer of at least one person (Robert) Thea actually loved. I haven't liked her since S1, when she was obnoxiously pushing an obviously traumatized Oliver to tell her everything that happened (seriously, nearly everyone he knew, including McKenna, tried to get him to spill, which I found very obnoxious), but she's pretty much unbearable now. For me, her only saving grace is that I like WH and think she's unbelievably pretty.

my past experience serve nothing but to grand me a personal view point which helps me understand what motivates Thea's behavior.

I know what it's like to lose a parent at a young age, i know what it is like to gain a step parent when you're a teenager and end up being disappointed when that person doesn't step up to take the role you need them to and when they finally do it's too late. so no neither of my parents are mass murderous and neither is my step father (although he has his own issues)

I think the fact that you say you dislike Thea is a huge deal, could it potentially clouding your judgment?

foreverevolving, I agree with much of what you said. It's like season 1 and season 2B Thea though. She's pretty self-centered, which made sense when she was 18 but not so much now. Malcolm is good to her and pays a ton of attention to her as well as a lot of money, he saved her from the mirakuru soldiers when the rest of her family didn't care (in her mind -- the real reason is she flounced off and they thought she was out of town) so therefore he must be a good guy,

Sometimes when children go through a trauma, they remain emotionally fixated at the age of the trauma. (This is why I have more sympathy for Thea than for Laurel because Laurel was 22 when the boat went down.) So emotionally, parts of Thea remain stuck at age 12. It's made more difficult because Oliver tends to treat her like she's still 12, "protecting" her from the truth about Robert, about himself and about Malcolm.

precisely! to your second paragraph. that's my all point. Thea's arc on the show (imo) is all about her realizing that she can't depend on others to build her up. that true personal growth and healing her emotional wounds is something that is going to come only from within her. it's not going to be Oliver being alive, or Moira suddenly behaving like a mother, finding our Malcolm is alive and he is her father, having him teach her how to fight. Nope!

Thea will emotionally grow when she will start to look into herself for strength and not to outside sources.

until than? she's going to be used and lied to, but that's okay.. because like you said, there's a part of Thea that is still very much that 12 year old girl who just had her entire world turned upside down and she is deeply emotionally scarred for it, which is why she is still struggling, and why she allows herself to trust Malcolm, despite knowing full well what he is.

Man i would give the universe to have my father back! can you imagine finding out that while the man who raised you and you call Dad is dead, here is a man who by blood is your father and he wants to be a part of your life (for whatever reason, Who fucking cares!) he wants to be your dad, the same parental figure you have just spend 5-6 years desperately missing and needing.

Man... that would screw even the most rational emotionally healthy individual, but someone who is so painfully scarred like Thea, someone who just lost her mom too!

Malcolm is now her only Parent... she's not gonna part ways with him anytime soon. Right now? her emotional needs far outweighs her logical knowledge.

she'll get there though!

ETA: knowing what we know about what is going to happen in tomorrows episode and possibly in next week episode, I feel hopeful those will mark the turning point and start of Thea's emotional growth.

Edited February 10, 2015 by foreverevolving

[AyChihuahua]

 

I think the fact that you say you dislike Thea is a huge deal, could it potentially clouding your judgment?

I dislike her because of how she is written in the show.  She went from a spoiled, self-centered brat to a spoiled, self-centered brat voluntarily hanging out with a mass murderer.  I don't see how that fact, that Malcolm has murdered probably 550 people, is anything other than very, very salient.  She jokes about donating his left-over cash to an earthquake relief fund, bc, ha ha, the way he killed most of those 550-ish people was by setting up an earthquake machine.  Isn't that just hilarious!

[wingster55]

Even though it's temporary, actually seeing her death was a bit of a shocker. And quite impressive she took on Ra's with no fear or hesitation. 

[Password]

Yes I enjoyed that scene.

[Morrigan2575]

I like Thea, she grew on me starting at the end of S1 when she told Roy off for calling Oliver weak. I really liked her in S2 but she was almost non-existent for most of this season. 

 

I can honestly say that I'll never understand or really even buy Thea latching onto the man she hated since S1 because of biology and lack of trust with Moira/Oliver.  They never sold that storyline, I could buy a hardened Thea using Malcolm to teach her and for his money but ultimately rejecting him and everything he stands for.  However, that's not the story they're telling, they gave lip service to it with having Thea turn her back on MM in 314/315 once she knew the truth but then taking him back in 316 even though he's evil.  

 

Personally, i think the EPs are too much in love with Barrowman to actually do the Thea/MM relationship the way it should be, same could be said for Oliver.

[wingster55]

I would've liked her getting one over on him...but I don't know if she was ever really seeing herself as his daughter..as it was so easy to drop him.

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, I would have loved a storyline where Thea was going along with Merlyn only as a guise and was secretly plotting to undermine him.  It would have been 1000 times more compelling than the mess we got.

[KirkB]

To be fair, I think almost any storyline would have been more compelling than what we got. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by KirkB

[tarotx]

Melcolm had been a part of Thea's growing up so since she forgave her mom it's not hard to believe she could forgive Melcolm. I mean since at this point everbody were liars and killers.

The Problem comes with him having her kill Sara. It's so stupid and pointless. There was better ways to make Oliver risk death for Thea's life and soul.

[doesntworkonwood]

Yeah, I would have loved a storyline where Thea was going along with Merlyn only as a guise and was secretly plotting to undermine him.  It would have been 1000 times more compelling than the mess we got.

 

Would have given her a hell of a lot more agency as well.

[Trini]

So what exactly was Merlyn worried about?  "The Thea you get back will not be the one you lost."  She seems fine.

 

But I'm sure the writers will pick the most inopportune time to bring this back up next season.

[wingster55]

...good question

[Password]

Either they forget about it, or Thea sporadically does crazy things. Fine one day, the next she sets her apartment on fire. Like such.

[wingster55]

I guess there's too much other stuff that they won't focus on it.

Or maybe Thea's way stronger than Malcolm thought. 

[kismet]

So what exactly was Merlyn worried about? "The Thea you get back will not be the one you lost." She seems fine.

But I'm sure the writers will pick the most inopportune time to bring this back up next season.

I think next season is their plan. Too much this season to fit it in. Or maybe the crazy just needs to incubate inside for a little while.

[Genki]

Maybe she will see dead people

if SA was going to x-over with Constantine because of the LP I coujd see the consequences playing out next season

not sure if that was really a spoiler.

[kismet]

Maybe she will see dead people

if SA was going to x-over with Constantine because of the LP I coujd see the consequences playing out next season

not sure if that was really a spoiler.

Perhaps a new spin on the flashbacks.... Maybe we should be speculating on GhostTommy instead of ZombieTommy. :) Then again, seeing dead people is not a new thing for Arrow, so perhaps they might avoid it.

 

I think I might actually like to see multiple personalities as a result of it. Perhaps fluctuating in scene/episode similar to Gollum from LOTR. So long as we stay away from the freaky yell we heard when she first came out of the pool.

[wingster55]

Thea Queen - best thing of s3 in my book.

Minus Nyssa.

[wonderwall]

Does the show even realize that Thea is now essentially the heir to the demon? *rolls eyes*

[wingster55]

I certainly didn't.

[NumberCruncher]

I don't even think the showrunners thought things would end up that way with Thea. We all have Barrowman's husband to thank for that one since he was the one who suggested making Thea Malcolm's daughter instead of Oliver. Personally I've greatly disliked what being Malcolm's daughter has done to the character, but YMMV.

[apinknightmare]

Does the show even realize that Thea is now essentially the heir to the demon? *rolls eyes*

 

Does it matter though? Being a blood heir doesn't really seem to mean anything, since they can be ousted by "prophecy" or because the idiot who received the title by killing the previous Ra's decides to just give the ring away to some other dude. 

[wonderwall]

Does it matter though? Being a blood heir doesn't really seem to mean anything, since they can be ousted by "prophecy" or because the idiot who received the title by killing the previous Ra's decides to just give the ring away to some other dude. 

 

In the end though, what does the 'prophecy' matter? It's not like Oliver became the next Ra's, he literally had that position for 2.5 seconds then peaced out. So if blood doesn't matter, and the prophecies are obviously not true at all... So what matters? And why am I even asking this like I care? :p The LoA was a mess. There's a code, but there isn't a code (Ra's killing everyone in Starling for no good reason?), there's a prophecy but it didn't come true, there's an heir (Nyssa), but no one seemed to care... 

 

So I'm inclined to believe that Thea is the heir to the demon like Nyssa was. But I don't think that will ever amount to anything. I'm sure the writers forgot about this all already. 

[apinknightmare]

In the end though, what does the 'prophecy' matter? 

 

I don't think any of it matters. The blood heir was bumped for a "prophecy," and in the end the title was just given away. So anyone can be Ra's, it seems. 

[quarks]

Well, great. Now you all have me hoping that Thea does become the next Ra's Al Ghul and trains the League of Assassins to become killer night club owners. In the fullest sense of that phrase.

[calliope1975]

Well, great. Now you all have me hoping that Thea does become the next Ra's Al Ghul and trains the League of Assassins to become killer night club owners. In the fullest sense of that phrase.

 

Hey, the LOA apparently already has douchey DJ members - or, it did. I bet there's some amazing bartenders, promoters, cashiers, etc. We know they have security on lock down already.

[ybrik]

I don't know how well the LOA could do as club owners. I mean the LOA loves their candles and I doubt they would be able to pass any building inspections. 

 

Glad to see the development of Thea over the series especially this year. Her character arc has been far more interesting than Laurel's as they both became 'heroes'. I am very interested in seeing where she goes from here.

[KirkB]

Hang on, was Thea ACTUALLY dead when they put her in the pit, or just mostly dead? Because if she wasn't totally dead, then considering who stabbed her wouldn't she also fit the prophecy?

[kismet]

Hang on, was Thea ACTUALLY dead when they put her in the pit, or just mostly dead? Because if she wasn't totally dead, then considering who stabbed her wouldn't she also fit the prophecy?

It's never fully explained. I personally think she was brain dead, so for all intense purposes dead. But I believe other people thought organ failure from traumatic injuries and blood loss. Basically her injuries would not sustain life without significant assistance from machines and there was implied little if no hope of natural survival. A lot of people put their ideas in the episode thread if I remember correctly. I also believe somebody else suggested that she may also be eligible for the prophecy.

 

The fine print on the prophecy keeps changing for plot purposes, so she might be eligible in the future should the writers want it that way. Technically, I believe she is now Daughter to the Demon, so who knows what the perks of that position are?. She now holds a similar rank as Nyssa, if those titles are not stripped as when the demon dies. Perhaps Nyssa is now dowager-daughter to the heir? They really need to publish how all these ancestral titles, peerage and nobility rankings really work in LoA. I feel like at any moment the LoA will turn Downton Abbey on us, but at least I can figure out the title system on that show.

[wingster55]

I really, really want someone to call her the "Heir to the Demon". It MUST happen

[tarotx]

Maybe by Nyssa? She considered herself to be heir to the demon just because of her dad. So it would fit. She might actually be a bit bitter with Thea since Malcolm used Thea to kill Sara and it was from Thea's death that cause Oliver to upserp her and the forced Marriage. And now Malcolm is the new Ra's so Nyssa's recentment and anger would be believable.

Roy could do it in Fun. Thea could roll her eyes say it about herself. But I don't want any of the others to say it.

[BkWurm1]

Brought over from Behind the Scenes,

But also in that Oliver and Thea consistently [had scenes together] in the first half of the season. Then for some reason they backed off with Oliver getting consistent screen time with...everyone else (he was always with Diggle, Laurel remained his love interest, Tommy and Felicity found out, and Moira though less so was revealed to Oliver) while Thea was sent of to Harper's Island

 

I did suggest on the other thread that maybe they backed off the Ollie/Thea time because they had a little too much chemistry (and I wish I was joking) but I wanted to address Thea being sent to "Harper's Island". 

 

I hated it when it happened to Felicity with Palmer's island but I don't think I even noticed it with Thea. 

 

I've always found Thea sympathetic from the get go.  I left the O.C. very impressed with Willa Holland.  She took a bratty one dimensional character and completely turned her around and made her nuanced and vulnerable and relatable so that probably put me on her side more so than others coming in cold, knowing where she could take Thea.

 

That said, I did enjoy her so much more when she got Roy as part of her storyline, not because I didn't like Thea or found her a brat or anything like that, - she was troubled but she had some legitimate issues with her mother and Oliver.  The reason I enjoyed when she found Roy was she found her focus.  She stopped being lost and miserably unhappy.  As much as I sympathized and was on Thea's side, it was uncomfortable watching and waiting for the inevitable train wreck. 

 

I was able to relax and continue to enjoy Thea when Roy was introduced because she stopped behaving in a self destructive manner and that was a wonderful thing and made me love Roy just a little be more.  Yup, I liked Roy from the start too.  I didn't love how Thea's screen time was so marginalized in season two. 

 

I thought there toward the middle of S2 that they were finding the right balance with Teen Arrow doing their own things.  Thea, Sin, and Roy were vey enjoyable together but then Roy got mirikurued and he kind of vanished and in the second half of S2 so did Diggle and Felicity and Sin and Thea.  Like Felicity and Diggle, Thea did get some great stuff at the end of S2 but she'd been criminally underused before hand which was why I was so hopeful about season 3. 

 

Thea got more screen time but the writers haven't seemed to figure out that screen time isn't enough, agency within the screen time is what moves the character forward.  Thea had some great moment this year but far too often she was the flexible pawn used to move everyone else's storyline along, though notably, that did not include Roy this year.  She was off Harper island but I really did miss them being together because Roy seemed to be there to support her storyline this year while just about everything else happening to her was about Malcolm or Oliver. 

 

I still love Thea, but she got a crap journey IMO this season.  The pieces were all there, but the focus and the method of the story telling (not to mention the OOC love of daddy Merlyn while it lasted) was severely off.  I can just about take the pieces and rework it (tossing in essential fanwanks) so her transformation works, but I'm looking forward to season 4 to fill in the character moments that we just didn't get with Thea this year.   

[calliope1975]

I was thinking earlier because of a comment on Tumblr about what Thea's motivations are to become a hero, because I like to avoid work. Was anything mentioned in show? I admit to not paying close attention and skipping a few eps due to my dissatisfaction with S3. Is it because she now has a particular set of skills and why not use them for the greater good? Is it because that's what all the cool kids are doing? Is it because everyone has to have a mask to be relevant on this show?

 

I don't really mind it, but I am curious. I rather liked club owner/runner Thea. Again, I think that goes to me needing to see these characters in other roles than just masked hero. I need the normalcy to balance out the over the top comic book aspects. 

[apinknightmare]

It was because Roy told her to.

[AyChihuahua]

I think she's trying to right her own wrongs, and hang with the kewl kidz.  I like Willa, always have, and liked where Thea ended up, but I agree her actual hero journey in S3 was total crap.

 

I wonder if they'll tie Thea's crazy to Sara, somehow?  Like she brought Sara's spirit back with her or something.  Could explain PB's "haunting" comment.  They could be hoping to get Constantine on to get Sara's spirit out of Thea and back into her own LPd body.

[BkWurm1]

It was because Roy told her to.

It was a rather odd setup to their goodbye.  She goes to him and wants to leave everything behind her and he instead decides she should have a "better" life, one that lets her keep her history and Oliver in her life but he throws in, hey, maybe you can pick up my slack now? 

 

He would have known about her training with Malcolm, but he knew nothing of her being LP's or of Oliver going to the dark side (the original reason that Thea stepped in).  I'd like to think he just knew her well enough to know she'd be great at it, but there wasn't a lot of indication that she'd have any desire to do it.  Maybe from her instant support for Oliver when she found out the truth?  Maybe throwing the suit at her was a way to encourage her to go in the opposite direction of Malcolm's influence. 

 

The scene played like he thought she had always been running from her life and she was using him as an excuse to keep doing that, hence Roy taking that option away from her and offering her something in Starling to run towards instead but I really believed that Thea loved Roy and really, she had nothing in Starling to stick around for (that she knew of then).  Maybe Roy' was still punishing himself about killing that cop and didn't think he deserved to ride off into the sunset happy. 

 

For Thea, I think she put on the costume because she was at loose ends and saw that she could help.  That's about as deep as it gets IMO for now.  I think we will get more next season, but we don't have it yet. 

[wingster55]

I'd agree that it was all because of Roy..if 3x21 hadn't happened. Where after 3 long years of everyone making decisions for her/drugging her, she decides enough is enough. She asked Felicity if she could join the team, Felicity brushes her off, Thea says screw that and pretty much saves the day (even if Oliver wasn't actually gonna kill Diggle). 

 

On a side note from the current topic...I wish that moment was focused on a bit more. Oliver gave up his life to join/infiltrate the league and alienate his loved ones...all because of Thea. And now she rejects him. Wish Oliver would've shown a bit of...sadness at that. 

[tangerine95]

Do you mean rejects him like when she shots him in the arm to save Diggle? I don't think she was rejecting Oliver,she thought he was brainwashed to become Al Sahim so she was stoping him from hurting someone.

[wingster55]

Yes, but he may have thought that she'd be sympathetic to his plight. He basically did everything for her in s3 and it's not completely unreasonable that she'd be his sole defender. But instead she didn't care and shot him with an arrow. 

 

Am I being clear on my point? I'm not sure. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by wingster55

[SmallScreenDiva]

For Thea, I think she put on the costume because she was at loose ends and saw that she could help.  That's about as deep as it gets IMO for now.  I think we will get more next season, but we don't have it yet. 

 

That's pretty much it, I think. She saw Digg and Felicity still trying to save the city, without Oliver, and offered her services given that she's now ninja-trained and all :) Doesn't she say something like being a vigilante apparently is in her blood when she was trying to get Felicity to let her join? I wish the show didn't rush that, but then again, everything was rushed in the last few eps. I do like her motivation, though. She wants to help. Simple as that and, in my head, that puts her closer to becoming a hero than others who need to quench a fire in their belly, feed an addiction or want to avenge somebody. 

[tangerine95]

I don't think he was really expecting that because he had to pretend to do pretty bad stuff to seem brainwashed.And she kind of was on his side in conversation with the others.At the end of the episode,even after he kidnapped Lyla and almost killed Diggle she and Felicity both said they still loved him despite everything.

I do think everyone was a kind of quick to believe he was really brainwashed,but that seems to be mostly for plot reasons.

[apinknightmare]

Why would he think she'd be sympathetic to his plight? He let them all believe he'd been brainwashed into being everything he'd been fighting against for years. He was fighting the people who had cared for Thea since she returned from the Lazarus Pit. If anything, I think he would've been momentarily annoyed, but proud. The fact that she suited up and shot him helped him sell his charade too. So, win for him. 

[wingster55]

Why would he think she'd be sympathetic to his plight?

 

Because, in essence, he traded his life for hers. 

(Don't get me wrong, it's great that she didn't give a damn about that) but I could see it going the other way..like her not wanting to get involved as opposed to 0 hesitation shot. 

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, but he traded her life for hers to become the head of a (supposedly) evil organization, and then returned to town as a completely different person than he was before. She just gave him a flesh wound that stopped him from (in her mind) stabbing Diggle - someone who had invited her into his home since Oliver had been gone. It's not like she went for his head - even though she threatened to. I think THAT would've been difficult for her. 

Edited July 28, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wingster55]

True, but my main point is that it should have been treated as more significant than it was. 

[AyChihuahua]

I never got all the life-trading stuff, in the sense of Oliver really joining/leading the LOA. One way or another, Oliver would have gotten out. He would have taken it down or intentionally gotten himself killed or something. He was never actually going to become evil. I hate that his team thought he would. (And I say that as someone INCREDIBLY disappointed in Oliver now...he is a moron and narcissistic controlling creepy jackass, but he has never and will never actually be evil. And the LOA is evil.)