Thea Queen: Speedy

[statsgirl]

Roy also defended Laurel joining the team. Poor Roy.

She only really seemed to turn off her emotions for him when she learned that he used her to kill Sara, and even then, the show wanted us to believe she would have lost her soul if she'd allowed Malcolm to be killed (implying that she was still harboring some sort of feeling for/about him deep inside).

I hope the idea was more that she would lose her soul if she caused anyone's death (the reason Oliver killed the guy on the island so it woudn't be on Sara's soul (little did he know)), but I fear it was about his belief that when she calmed down, she would want MM around.

[AyChihuahua]

....And then that conversation made Roy defend Malcolm right?

Well geez, only for like an episode.  Before he went back to hating him again.  I mean really, do you expect characters to have consistent motivations and thought processes from episode to episode?  So unfair!

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I think erasing every single bit of Malcolm-influenced flip-flopping in S3 from our minds is the way to go.

 

Super terribad dialog from 3x12, apologies in advance:

 

Roy: Don't take this the wrong way, but isn't killing people exactly what Malcolm Merlyn does?

Thea: Yes, but he also protects people. During the siege, he was the only one who made me a top priority. He saved my life.

Roy: I didn't know.

Thea: Despite everything Malcolm was or is, it means something that he was there when I needed him the most. Even after everything he's done, he cares about people. Even all the terrifying things he's done it was because he thought that he was helping the Glades.

 

Then Roy went to Team Arrow-less with --->

 

I just found this out, but the night of the siege, Malcolm saved Thea's life. He didn't have an ulterior motive, he didn't have an agenda. He just wanted to protect what he cared about. He cares about this city. He just went about it in a completely unimaginable way.

 

Bending other characters into unrecognizable pretzels is Malcolm's superpower.

Edited August 26, 2015 by dtissagirl

[statsgirl]

Thea: Yes, but he also protects people. During the siege, he was the only one who made me a top priority. He saved my life.

Roy: I didn't know.

Thea: Despite everything Malcolm was or is, it means something that he was there when I needed him the most. Even after everything he's done, he cares about people. Even all the terrifying things he's done it was because he thought that he was helping the Glades.

And...... we're back to the "Thea is narcissistic" debate.

 

Roy wasn't there for her, he was too busy saving the city and the innocent people on the streets so Thea is justified in being angry and leaving him.  Malcolm Merlyn made Thea a top priority and didn't save anyone else therefore he's a good guy.

 

Poor Willa Holland, having to sell that line.  And if Thea really thinks that " Even all the terrifying things he's done it was because he thought that he was helping the Glades." is a justification for what he does, she's missing the dividing line between 'sane' and 'insane'.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I think erasing every single bit of Malcolm-influenced flip-flopping in S3 from our minds is the way to go.

 

Super terribad dialog from 3x12, apologies in advance:

 

Roy: Don't take this the wrong way, but isn't killing people exactly what Malcolm Merlyn does?

Thea: Yes, but he also protects people. During the siege, he was the only one who made me a top priority. He saved my life.

Roy: I didn't know.

Thea: Despite everything Malcolm was or is, it means something that he was there when I needed him the most. Even after everything he's done, he cares about people. Even all the terrifying things he's done it was because he thought that he was helping the Glades.

So yes, she defended Malcolm.  That is actually completely nauseating.  I feel comfortable that I would not consider being murdered helpful, AT ALL.

[calliope1975]

That entire exchange was terribad. There's a pretty big gap between realizing that the crazy person has motives that make sense to them, but that those motives are in no way, shape, or form valid for sane people to use. 

 

Or, as Jake Peralta sums up so beautifully, "Cool motive. Still murder."

[statsgirl]

So yes, she defended Malcolm.  That is actually completely nauseating.  I feel comfortable that I would not consider being murdered helpful, AT ALL.

The problem wasn't that she was his number one priority. It was that she was his only priority and once she was safe, the rest of Starling City could just die a horrible death.  That's Malcolm-logic but not even a stressed-out 20 year old Thea should accept that Malcolm is a better person than Roy who was trying to help the Arrow save the city, or that he's trust-worthy.

[BkWurm1]

And if Thea really thinks that " Even all the terrifying things he's done it was because he thought that he was helping the Glades." is a justification for what he does, she's missing the dividing line between 'sane' and 'insane'.

 

 For awhile she was pushing him to make better choices.  She was trying to prove to Roy and herself that Malcolm wasn't all bad.  I think it wasn't Thea so much trying to justify his actions so much as point to his motives as a sign that Malcolm could be redeemable.

but not even a stressed-out 20 year old Thea should accept that Malcolm is a better person than Roy who was trying to help the Arrow save the city, or that he's trust-worthy.

 

Wasn't Thea's problem with Roy not that he was off to save the city but that he was still lying to her about his activities?

[statsgirl]

Yes, Thea was angry at Roy because he was lying to her about still working with the Arrow.  But I think it points out how immaturely she was thinking. Often when someone lies to you it's because they feel they can't tell you the truth. Roy couldn't tell Thea that the Arrow needed him to help save the city because she had told him she wouldn't tolerate him working with the Arrow. If Thea had thought about it when she cooled down, she might have realized that. But she was in the temper tantrum "everyone lies to me and I'm going to make them pay" mode.

 

Thinking Malcolm could be redeemable seems to be a failing of both Thea and Oliver. (Or maybe Oliver was in it only for the training?)  By coming back for Thea and saving only her, Malcolm again proved that he was fundamentally selfish and ego-centric.  That doesn't say redeemable to me.

[wingster55]

I think only viewed things from a perspective of what benefited her because for so long..no one else would. And that never really stopped. 

[statsgirl]

But wasn't Oliver's "I can't kill Malcolm because Thea needs him" all about doing what he thought best for Thea?  Granted, he was wrong but he thought he was doing what would benefit Thea.  Even his reason for going to Nanda Parbat to save Malcolm was about Thea because he thought she would be too traumatized when she realized she had caused her bio-dad to be killed.

 

Moira also may have made some bad parenting decisions but much of the time she did what she did because that's what she thought Thea needed (e.g.not to know that Robert wasn't her biological father).  In season 1, when Oliver told his mother that she didn't discipline him enough and she was making the same mistake with Thea, she immediately started to spend more time with Thea and set more rules.  In 3x21, when Felicity told Thea that Roy was alive, she did it so that Thea could decide if she wanted to go after Roy and try to find happiness with him, which was also a way of looking at what would benefit Thea the most.

[AyChihuahua]

But from what he told Digg, that was a front for the real reason Oliver went to Nanda after Malcolm, which is that somehow losing a sword battle to someone who's been swordfighting for a billion years emasculated Oliver. I mean, it's dumb as crap, but that is what Oliver said.

[tv echo]

The CW's S2 character bio card for Thea...

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.307038822767490.1073741835.104137579724283&type=3

[wingster55]

That was from season 2? Sure sounds like s1 to me. 

[tarotx]

They seem to have been released right before the 2nd season premiere so a bit of a refresher.

[Primal Slayer]

They were for the 1.5 comic weren't they? So pre-S1.

[tarotx]

All I know is the link says "Refresh your memory before Oct. 9's season 2 premiere of #Arrow." And the date of the replies are September 30th and October 1st 2013.

[bijoux]

Thea celebrated her 18th birthday in season 1.

[tv echo]

The CW released all of these character bio cards on or about October 4, 2013, right before and in anticipation of the start of Season 2:
http://en.paperblog.com/arrow-character-bio-cards-for-season-2-669197/

 

I don't think consistency is their strong suit.

Edited September 22, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I find it disturbing how they've kinda skipped over Thea's character development from normal teen to killer. Yes, she trained for several months with Malcolm, so I'm fine with her advanced fighting skills.  But it should still affect her, at least initially, actually to kill other people. Her murder of Sara was without her knowledge or consent since she was drugged.  But since then, she's intentionally killed without second thought.  The show went through years of Oliver agonizing over his kill or no-kill rule.  Diggle was a soldier so he's become calloused to killing when necessary.  But Thea - and also Laurel - seemed to take to killing people without remorse or conscience.

[dtissagirl]

I think we're meant to believe Team Arrowless was not killing anyone. MG was asked about Diggle shooting people in a recent interview, and he answered that he's just injuring the bad guys. I think it applies to Thea and Laurel as well.

[tv echo]

IIRC, in the S3 finale, Thea shot a bad guy dead with an arrow (when Diggle was confronting the viral-infected guy).  Granted, it was in defense of Diggle, but I believe that was her first intentional kill. Rather than showing some regret, it was played like a cool badass moment.

[apinknightmare]

I don't know how much remorse she would feel about killing a guy who was going to hurt Diggle and unleash a virus on the city.

[tv echo]

I think someone who's never (intentionally) killed another human being before would feel something at killing any living person.

[bijoux]

I think someone who's never (intentionally) killed another human being before would feel something at killing any living person.

True, but when get around to it, this time it can actually be explained that it's also due to the Lazarus Pt. Although, I always like to point out that Thea was more than ready to gun down Malcolm even in season 2. So maybe she has less issues with this than Oliver. Which makes sense, since the blood she has on her hands is negligable when compared to that on his.

[apinknightmare]

I think someone who's never (intentionally) killed another human being before would feel something at killing any living person.

 

Eh, I don't know. I think it's difficult to say what the appropriate reaction would be for killing an attempted mass murderer who just had a gun aimed at your friend's head. 

[tv echo]

YMMV

[dtissagirl]

I really think the unspoken rule here is, if the rando minor bad guy didn't have a name, then he's not a kill. Pretty much like the bunch of Russian prison guards Felicity and Diggle exploded, and nobody cared.

[wingster55]

Didn't that guy kill himself? He was still alive when Diggle was interrogating him and his death unleashed the virus.

Yea I just rewatched it. He slits his own throat

Edited October 13, 2015 by wingster55

[Delphi]

I mean she also shot Oliver through his hand and threatened to do it through his eye and I took her completely serious then. I think it all depends on the circumstance.

Though, in regards to her violence, when they raided the compound and Thea was going all Faith on the bad guy, Dig casually brushed it off as nothing but she really almost stabbed that guy in the neck. That's not "new and aggressive" that's "out of control and psychotic".

For the soldier Dig claims to be he should really have better insight into his troops mindset.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Delphi

[tv echo]

Here's the 323 scene - you can quibble about whether or not three arrows shot into a body alone would've been enough to kill the guy (just slower):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il5G_HGZeL0

 

I also don't believe that Team Arrowless didn't kill anyone in 401:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qscsxMwn-rc

 

My point is simply that, even when the kill is justified or the right thing to do, a teenager or 20-year-old who's never killed before, shouldn't be so unaffected and callous about taking a life. IRL, we've had American teens in the military (voluntary and drafted) who've gone overseas, killed people, and come back with PTSD. Just a brief scene between Diggle and Thea would've helped, acknowledging the necessity and showing some concern.

 

You can rationalize it as LP effects, but they did the same thing way back when Laurel shot the bad cop to save Oliver.  It was necessary and heroic, but it was her first kill and there was no twinge of 'oh no, I've killed someone' and coming to terms with it. It's just weird, when they made such a big deal over Oliver being a killer and a criminal.

 

But just my opinion - I don't want to beat a dead horse.

Edited October 13, 2015 by tv echo

[Delphi]

Hmm, yeah, he was totes going to die. Blood out of his mouth, arrows straight through his chest. I don't think it matters that he sped up his death to release the virus.

[dtissagirl]

I think we're talking about two different things? I mean, it's possible that many of those dudes Diggle is shooting to injure end up dying anyway from blood loss and/or infection. Same with the minions Thea is arrowing left and right in 401. And I agree that Thea totally shot that guy to kill in the finale. What I mean is imo, the show itself is not treating any of these as actual kills, so they can't give Thea a storyline about what it feels like to kill someone, if the writers don't see/consider that she already did.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver's no-kill vow has always depended on circumstance.  For one thing, getting shot through the shoulder can easily equal death without immediate medical care.  So can getting shot through the leg, etc.  Oliver killed Cyrus Gold and was totally fine with killing all the Mirakuru soldiers in an explosion ("they're not human"), until he wasn't.  They killed a number of guards in Russia, and I refuse to believe none of those LOA guys died.  I have always thought the no-kill vow was stupid, anyway.  Really, if Slade doesn't come back to kill Felicity it'll only be because of issues with Manu.

 

As long as none of them kill a good guy on purpose, I personally just don't care.  

[kismet]

I find it disturbing how they've kinda skipped over Thea's character development from normal teen to killer. Yes, she trainedarrow for several months with Malcolm, so I'm fine with her advanced fighting skills. But it should still affect her, at least initially, actually to kill other people. Her murder of Sara was without her knowledge or consent since she was drugged. But since then, she's intentionally killed without second thought. The show went through years of Oliver agonizing over his kill or no-kill rule. Diggle was a soldier so he's become calloused to killing when necessary. But Thea - and also Laurel - seemed to take to killing people without remorse or conscience.

I'm blaming the pit. She didn't kill really until after the pit. So everything I feel is going to be connected to the pit. It also doesn't seem like anyone was taking care of her on team arrow while OQ was out of town. I know she was living with LL but her view on violence & killing since she put on the mask is questionable to say the least. And Dig seems to see nothing wrong with her, probably because he was too wrapped up in his own family & issues.

Now that OQ is back, I feel the show will address it. But I do think the show handled her transition from teen to adult decently in s2 when she took over Verdant.

[wingster55]

I'm really hoping that theLoA don't have the cure for Thea. Just so Willa can continue to own the season.

[kismet]

Not gonna lie, I love me some Crazy TQ! That smile she had on her face after setting Anarky on fire was so maniacal & then she followed it up with some recognition/guilt.

 

I'm excited to see what WH can do with it. So part of me wants the Spa Trip to NP to fail for so many reasons.  

[Angel12d]

I also don't want there to be an instant cure for Thea, otherwise the 'effects from the pit' storyline would last a grand total of three episodes and the rest of her story for the season would be getting a new love interest and trying to juggle that part of her life with Team Arrow. No thanks. I want to see more than that.

[wingster55]

Thank goodness we're gonna get more hot crazy Thea. Willa's killing it.

Not to turn this to a "vs" thread...but I don't foresee Caity being as effective. 

[Morrigan2575]

I knew MM was totally bull-shiitng about the Sage in the mountains.  

 

I mentioned this in the episode thread but they basically seem to be going with the Pit effects being a drug addiction/addiction recovery storyline.  This could get rather interesting if they keep it up and don't just drop it or find an easy out for Thea's issues.

[kismet]

I knew MM was totally bull-shiitng about the Sage in the mountains.  

 

I mentioned this in the episode thread but they basically seem to be going with the Pit effects being a drug addiction/addiction recovery storyline.  This could get rather interesting if they keep it up and don't just drop it or find an easy out for Thea's issues.

In retrospect, it makes perfect sense that he is bullshitting her about the Sage in the mountains. But I was a little bummed for her & us, because I did want to see a little father/daughter hike & camping scene. Plus, I was bummed because I thought perhaps that is where Nyssa goes to find a cure for her beloved. Turns out she is just locked up again and MM is a liar as always.

[MuuMuuChainsmoker]

Ok, I know that this is completely unrelated to Thea as a fleshed out character with real thoughts and feelings and struggles and hero's journey etc, etc, but......DAMN do I love her cute haircut. 

[Angel12d]

Sating her bloodlust made Thea all smiley and excitable about everything and it was pretty adorable. Can't wait to see what she's like in 2 weeks though!

[Carrie Ann]

She was SO pretty this episode, especially in the last scene. This shirt, the hair, the lighting--all working for Willa.

 

[wingster55]

Is extreme excitement what occurs when the blood lust is temporarily gone? Like...it was an elevator. It was as if it was leading to her personal Disney World.

[kismet]

I'd be interested in her take, since she herself was a secret child. 

Thea's take is going to be interesting, which is why the writers will likely skip over it. I hate to be mean to them, but I almost want to think of every logical and authentic story arc or characterization they could get out of this dumb story, just so I can live them in my head or fanfic - because I know they won't cover them. Instead, they will choose the most illogical and cliche melodramatic angle. Once again, just like s3 it's not the big ideas or arcs that are the problem, its the execution of them & how they fill the middle parts to get to those big points.

 

I don't necessarily consider her a secret child because she did grow up with a father, unlike William who seems to have grown up without a father. It just wasn't her biological father. So the secrets & lies portion is different. But where FS has first hand experience in being raised by a single mom, TQ has first hand experience having her world upturned with a big paternity reveal. So that is another fertile place of natural drama that the writers could have tapped. I also think it would summon up her relationship with MQ, and there is a multitude of emotions & consequences that TQ suffered as a result of MQ's secrets & lies. So to witness her brother suffering again partially because of her mother must trigger something.

 

The writers really shot themselves in the foot because they are so many "organic" places the drama could have taken place. TQ & FS both have a vested interest in OQ & William, as well as personal experience in a similar situation as William is going through. It just makes me so bitter that they went the withholding the truth route again for dramatic effect, when if they wanted to tell a dramatic story the scenes almost write themselves without all the contrived melodrama.

[apinknightmare]

I don't necessarily consider her a secret child because she did grow up with a father, unlike William who seems to have grown up without a father. It just wasn't her biological father. So the secrets & lies portion is different.

 

I never implied that the two situations were the same, just that Thea was lied to about her parentage, just like William was. William doesn't have a father, and Thea did, but Oliver witnessed her whole breakdown over those lies (I mean, the Queens wound up losing their fortune in large part to it), so I'd be really interested in what Thea would think about Oliver participating in that kind of lie, since she was the victim of a lie just like it.

[kismet]

I never implied that the two situations were the same, just that Thea was lied to about her parentage, just like William was. William doesn't have a father, and Thea did, but Oliver witnessed her whole breakdown over those lies (I mean, the Queens wound up losing their fortune in large part to it), so I'd be really interested in what Thea would think about Oliver participating in that kind of lie, since she was the victim of a lie just like it.

I never implied that you did. I was just expressing that I don't see her as a secret child. And even said she was the victim of a lie in my post. I am just as interested in hearing what TQ thinks about it the whole situation as you are. I just don't think the writers will ever address it, because they fail at writing complex stories that are authentic and not just drama/plot/twist.

[statsgirl]

Thea was already rebelling against Moira when she found out that Malcolm was her father whereas William seems very close to his.  Thea also had the conflict of loving Robert and losing him, and then learning that he wasn't her bio-dad after all.

I wonder just what Samantha told William about his father....

 

I wonder if Thea would welcome William into the family or if she's already got too much on her plate right now to deal with that too.

[looptab]

That last scene between Thea and Roy, as lovely as it was, brought up some questions for me, and I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this. It has been touched upon here and there on these boards, but, what exactly is Thea's motivation for being a vigilante? I feel like the show has never expanded on this, and at this point I don't know whether it's done on purpose or it's the show being its usual self.

We knew that Roy started stalking the Hood because he had inspired him by saving his life. Roy wanted to do good, he saved people during the Undertaking, felt like he was the only one to care about the people in the Glades and did what he could to help, even before he managed to become a part of Team Arrow. He had a clear motivation, and I don't think that's there for Thea? She started training because she wanted to be strong/not be scared anymore, then ended up on the Team pretty much because she had the skills and Oliver had left (first as Al-Sahim and then as himself).

So that last speech about her wanting Roy to have a normal life really threw me, and mostly for how bleak it was. She was so resigned, like that is the only life (or conclusion of a life, since she is convinced she is about to die) possible for her, and yeah, maybe there's no way out right now- given she is bound to these Lazarus Pit effects - but how did she get to this point? It's really similar to Oliver's last season's issue, maybe with another angle. The difference is that the show has bothered showing why Oliver would resign himself to dying for the mission, and it hasn't with Thea, so in the end the only take away for me is how depressing this whole thing is.

Thoughts?

Edited February 4, 2016 by looptab