Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Oscirus]

I always speculated that Ted was going to die. There are way too many vigilantes running around and Laurel has to have a reason for finding her way back to team arrow for training.

 

I know. I think that really hurt the show. Had they killed off Laurel instead of Tommy and had Tommy and Thea set-up romantically I think that would have made more sense.

 

Real life sister or not, Tommy always viewed Thea as his little sister so I doubt anything would've even come close to happening.

 

 

[Happy Harpy]

I think that K.Cassidy had better chemistry with C.Donnell than with S.Amell, but that's not saying much imho. Nevertheless, I could have liked Tommy and Laurel as a couple if the latter wasn't often portrayed imo as an exasperated, pushy schoolmistress with him. I saw Tommy going out of his way to be deserving of the mighty Laurel Lance, only to be met with lack of respect and distrust. It's a pity because if I had seen more of that Laurel who still wanted Tommy after he broke up with her, and still tried to make things work between them, I might have liked her a bit better (never to the point of wanting her front and center, but I might have been OK with her as a supporting character).

I think that unfortunately, Laurel was still set as Oliver's OTL so it had to appear that she wasn't too into Tommy, and the masses could rejoice and cheer as she finally hopped in bed with Ollie.

The lack of chemistry/acting problems didn't help at all, but this is imo the big issue with Laurel. She was stuck in a premise that didn't work (lawyer/not in the known) and she was a prisoner of her role as Oliver's end-game LI. So unlike Diggle, Felicity, and even Thea, she wasn't allowed to change direction too much during S1 because the writers eyed the big reunion at the end of the season, and the other possibilities for her character were imo not fully explored. And still imo, when the writers realized it was a problem, it was already too late to make her grow organically with the show, hence the feeling of frenzy in S2 with her revolving personality/motivations and the feeling of her character being forced front and center in S3 that some of us have.

 

About the last batch of promo. The show seems to have established that heroes need to make sacrifices. And yet I'm left wondering, with that big, huge, enormous heart of hers the PR machine won't stop yapping about: What did Laurel sacrifice, exactly, in order to become an heroine?

Yep.

On the other hand, I can list characters who made sacrifices for her, or were sacrificed for her, in-universe and meta. One of my many, many problems with the character and her trajectory.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[pootlus]

What did Laurel sacrifice, exactly, in order to become an heroine?

Her dignity.

I mean, you've seen the costume :)

[KenyaJ]

What did Laurel sacrifice, exactly, in order to become an heroine?

 

Her sobriety, obvs.

[Tangerine]

Tommy and Thea were my first OTP of the show. Forever bitter that they made him her brother....

 

I got a very Laurie/Amy a la Little Women vibe from them. I thought they had great chemistry together and could have seen it down the line. OH WELL.

 

"Pushy schoolmistress" was a good way to describe Laurel and Tommy's relationship. I liked Laurel with Tommy, I thought she was actually a more enjoyable person around him. But Laurel always came across as being judgmental and thought of herself as 'better' than him, which I didn't like. I get what they were going for, that she saw that Tommy was a better and more capable person than he currently was displaying but it just came across as being pushy and berating him. I just never got the sense that Laurel loved Tommy for who he was, only for who she wanted him to be, which is probably exactly how she approached her relationship with Oliver.

[statsgirl]

I gather that from KC's interviews that the justification for Laurel becoming the Black Canary is because she's got a big heart and fights for people who need justice?  This could be problematic because while they have shown that Laurel is an emotional, excitable person, they haven't really shown that she does in fact have a big heart for other.

 

The pilot episode set up a good path for Laurel.  She was a crusading lawyer at CNRI and then did a good job in Honor Thy Father when she wasn't bitching Oliver out, and she did take on Declan's case in An Innocent Man.  She was also good taking care of the kid in Home Invasion but unfortunately between an Innocent Man and then, she humiliated Tommy at dinner and was meaningfully cruel to her mother in Salvation.  She did agree to supervise Thea but that also could have been because she wanted the rich Queen family to be indebted to her, and then she ended up lying to Thea  twice.  She helped Tommy stand up to his father.  In Birds of Prey she wanted all the hostages saved IIRC.

 

But in terms of showing Laurel having a big heart, that was about it, as far as I remember.  Meanwhile, there were scenes of her yelling at the people closest to her, her father, her mother, Oliver, Sara, and by season 2, she's on the prosecution side, not the defense team. 

 

Meanwhile you've got on the show Tommy, who wanted to help save CNRI, who ended his relationship with Laurel because he thought she and Oliver belonged together, and who sacrificed his life for Laurel.  Or Sara, who thought she could never atone enough for her sins but was fighting so that 'no woman should be hurt by a man again', took Sin on without hesitation, and went back to the LoA so that she could use their help in saving Starling City.  Those are genuinely big hearts.  Quentin climbed into the bottle because Sara died and he couldn't stop the Dollmaker.  Even Moira has a heart although it was all for her children until Oliver told her that if the people in the Glades die, it doesn't matter that he is still alive.  Diggle joined the crusade to protect Oliver.

 

The crucibles others have gone through have not been of their own making -- Oliver and Sara in the hellish years, Diggle in Afghanistan, Roy with mirakuru. Not to make light of it or her recovery, but if Laurel's crucible was her addiction, it was a result of her own actions in Tommy's death.

 

The writing has failed the character if she's to be like the Black Canary of the comics.  Laurel is a flawed person, which is okay because all the heroes on this show are, but they still haven't written her as having The Right Stuff to be a superhero vigilante.

Edited January 16, 2015 by statsgirl

[Carrie Ann]

The crucibles others have gone through have not been of their own making -- Oliver and Sara in the hellish years, Diggle in Afghanistan, Roy with mirakuru. Not to make light of it or her recovery, but if Laurel's crucible was her addiction, it was a result of her own actions in Tommy's death.

 

Laurel is written as a flawed person, which is okay because all the heroes on this show are, but they still haven't written her as having The Right Stuff to be a superhero vigilante.

 

When they talk about Laurel's six-month addiction being her "crucible" or her "island," it's just like...those weren't just tough times for Oliver, Sara, and Diggle, even Roy (if you include the years he was street-fighting in The Glades). Those crucibles involved fighting, acquiring weapon and tactical skills, surviving, fighting for their lives and the lives of others, repeatedly. It's not just that they went through a challenging time, and that's the magic key to becoming a vigilante.

 

I can get past the motivation issue--if we're going to buy that Roy does this mainly because he feels like it's the right thing to do, then okay, I will pretend that I believed in Laurel & Sara's bond and that she feels driven to take up her mantle--but I don't buy that she knows Thing 1 about doing this, or that she would after four months of boxing training a few nights a week. No one will buy that.

 

The best thing they can do--aside from ditching her altogether, which they really should but won't--after the BC arc is make her hang it back up, and then she should leave with Nyssa at the end of the season to go train. It's a slap in the face to her parents and to her sister's memory to choose that life, but whatever, at least I could handwave that she could come back pretty kick-ass if she were training for that long and that intensively. We're handwaving it about Thea, so why not Laurel too?

[Guest]

I bought these over from the spoilers thread because I thought it might deviating from the topic.

 

Yes, this has always been one of the most incomprehensible things to me about how they set the character up. Whatever else she was - lawyer, florist, cop - she should have already been extremely proficient at martial arts, maybe even starting her as a child, like Iris' boxing lessons. Her journey should have been more about getting her in the mindset to take up the mask, not giving her the skills - those she should already have had, if she was ever to be considered Oliver's equal (or better) as far as fighting. (This is part of why I've always maintained that the writers were thinking of her more as Arrow's love interest than the future BC when they originally put the character concept together. And unfortunately that didn't work out so well for them.)

 

Agreed. I think she easily could have been proficient in martial arts when we were first introduced to her in s1 but maybe had no desire to be a vigilante. That would be her journey. Maybe she could have realized that she couldn't get the kind of justice she was after simply by being a lawyer and it went from there. She still could have had the addiction arc and whatever but being skilled already would have helped her story greatly. I'm not saying all of Laurel's problems could have been solved by this because that would be inaccurate, but it would make this transition to BC much more believable and easier to stomach. Right now, with what I know about BC, she just seems out of her league and the fact they're going to try and sell her as equals to people who have been training for 8 years is laughable. I can't take it seriously.

 

 

I think one of the problems the EPs have is that this is supposed to be an ORIGIN story.  Black Canary fans want her to be who she is in the comics NOW.  If she had been an amazing martial artist it would have been harder for them to damsel her so much through S1&2 because she could have rescued herself.  DIDing her was supposed to be what brought her and Oliver/Arrow together.   The rest of us just want a good story that makes sense (and I want a recast but that's a whole different conversation).  It doesn't. They brought in a Canary who was every bit Oliver's match. Discarded her like trash. Now they want us to buy that it only takes 3 episodes plus offscreen time to become almost as proficient.  Training with Nyssa won't surprise me.  I fully expect this Canary to be Arrow's equal at the S4 Premiere.

 

Sadly, I agree. I think she'll probably fail a couple of times in one, maybe two episodes and then we'll see nothing but improvement. S4 will be like she's been training forever. But that's the problem. They can't sell that idea to me. I'm never going to believe it. And that's why I said the problem could be solved by at least having her proficient in some kind of martial arts before s1 started. Have that as her character history. It's like they never really gave her a chance to start with. Everything was stacked against her, like she was always going to fail. It's so weird. 

Edited January 16, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

I think the fact that they've established that only people who've gone through a crucible are worthy of being a masked hero ends up limiting Laurel's story, because there's no way to avoid comparing crucibles. If her motivation was positive -- you know, kind of like the Black Canary from the comics, who wanted to go out and fight crime because she idolized her mom -- they'd be telling a different story with Laurel, and not repeating the exact same story beats they've done before, except now at warp speed.

But they're dead set on crucibles, and killing characters to motivate other characters, and the only outcome is repetition. Which is the opposite of interesting.

Edited January 16, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

I think the fact that they've established that only people who've gone through a crucible are worthy of being a masked hero ends up limiting Laurel's story, because there's no way to avoid comparing crucibles. If her motivation was positive -- you know, kind of like the Black Canary from the comics, who wanted to go out and fight crime because she idolized her mom -- they'd be telling a different story with Laurel, and not repeating the exact same story beats they've done before, except now at warp speed.

People who go through crucibles during the time period of the show. Diggle's didn't count because he was in Afghanistan, Felicity's didn't count because she was a child and then at MIT.  But then Merlyn's shouldn't count either because that was long ago... or does it matter that he came on with a mask and a comic book name?

 

I think seeing Sara killed in front of her should be Laurel's crucible, not her addiction as KC is saying in interviews.  Or better, Tommy dying for her.  The motivation is a huge problem.

[statsgirl]

I really think that the EPs believe Laurel's popularity will do a 180 once she becomes the Black Canary and is kicking ass out in the field.  So to their minds, there's a boatload of difference between the Laurel trilogy in Season 2 and the one in Season 3.

 

Training in science never goes away.  I have the urge to formulate hypotheses and then see which one turns out to be correct:

 

H1:  Katie Cassidy does a really good job at showing how and why Laurel becomes the Black Canary, and lives up to MG's tweet about her fight skills;

H2:  Katie Cassidy does a really good job at showing how and why Laurel becomes the Black Canary, and does an okay job in the fight part;

H3:  Katie Cassidy does her usual work but enough people are happy Laurel finally becoming the Black Canary that it's okay with them;

H4:  Katie Casside does her usual work but people are distracted by Olicity and Thea/Merlyn and don't really care.

H5:  it doesn't work and viewers grow less involved with the show;

 

Ho:  Nothing changes.

[BkWurm1]

I expect a combo of 4 and 5 with just the outside chance of 2.

 

Edit:  Oops!  I did not mean to say 2 or at least I only meant to say there could be an outside chance that she doesn't completely suck at the fighting side.  I think it's already to late to make a good case for how and why Laurel decides to go fight crime. 

Edited January 18, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

I don't think anything will change. 

[chaos is welcome]

H5 + how much I hate the injustice that is her SL makes me hate every little consistency I would normally overlook.

[KirkB]

Since I have been ambivalent toward Laurel for about two seasons now (I was okay with her at first) it would take something pretty exceptional to make me really enjoy or really hate what Katie Cassidy does. Putting on her buckle suit and getting her ass kicked won't make me look at her any better, and her turning out to be some kind of martial arts prodigy won't impress me either. The way I figure it, the Canary is the only thing that could possibly make Laurel relevant but it doesn't matter. The character is such a failure for me I simply don't care.

[romantic idiot]

I think they are trying to say that Laurel's big sacrifice is the death of her sister, and her pain t keeping this a secret from Quentin.

[catrox14]

I think they are trying to say that Laurel's big sacrifice is the death of her sister, and her pain t keeping this a secret from Quentin.

If that is what they are saying is a sacrifice, JFC they have no idea what sacrifice means. Sara didn't die because Laurel sacrificed anything for her. Sara died because Malcolm murdered her. Her pain is of her own making by being a self-centered jackass for not telling her father.

[chaos is welcome]

Yeah, I will never ever ever understand the whole "My father can't take knowing about Sara" BS.  Because having his other daughter become a vigilante and possibly die is TOTES better. 

 

The line from oliver in 3.06 about Laurel thinking she was playing a game, only she hadn't realized it yet--THAT was totally on.  I think we're supposed to have all these moments that were supposed to stick and show us Laurel growing (like her doing the whole "Its all my fault" in 4 when Nyssa went after Thea, and not trying to immediately kill Roy). .. but they all very much fall flat.  She doesn't REALLY get the sacrifice in what she's doing.  Because she hasn't given up anything.  She's lost things but she hasn't willingly given up a single bit of anything.  Sara and Oliver each had to give up scraps of their soul in there journey.  Sara and Oliver both started out as pretty selfish individuals with pure hearts, and that's why this path works for them. 

 

Barry's journey was different because it was elicited by an outside force, and is therefore plausible.  Ray will probably work because it will be tech that makes him who he is.

 

But man, with Laurel . . . I don't even know where to start.  She started out in S1 with righteous fury and purpose.  And then that fizzled into ???   Ask me to describe season 2 Laurel and all I come up with is "Everyone leaves me!"  I feel like its still "Everyone leaves me" Laurel.  No real growth.  And def not the semi-purpose driven character we had in S1.  She hasn't given up anything, she hasn't grown, she hasn't changed.  Maybe she will in these next 3 episodes, except I CAN NOT BUY THAT MUCH OF A CHANGE in 3 episodes, or 3 months, or THREE YEARS. 

And that's not even bringing into this conversation her complete lack of training after being DiD for 2 seasons straight. Sigh.  I feel like maybe this should have gone to the bitterness thread. 

[statsgirl]

Yeah, I will never ever ever understand the whole "My father can't take knowing about Sara" BS.  Because having his other daughter become a vigilante and possibly die is TOTES better. 

Laurel said that she can't take losing someone else i.e. if her father dies from a heart attack after hearing about Sara's death. If he dies because Laurel turned into a vigilante and got killed, it doesn't matter because she's already dead and won't be losing him anyway.

 

It's hard to think that they write Laurel as so completely self-absorbed and narcissistic by accident, but apparently they do.

 

 

 

Sara and Oliver both started out as pretty selfish individuals with pure hearts, and that's why this path works for them.

Barry's journey was different because it was elicited by an outside force, and is therefore plausible.  Ray will probably work because it will be tech that makes him who he is.

But all four of those characters started their road to being a vigilante by wanting to help others -- Oliver for his father and to make amends to Starling City; Sara because she was abused and wanted to prevent other women from being hurt, Barry to help people unjustly accused like his father, and Ray to protect Starling City.  Only Laurel starts her journey through anger and wanting to make herself feel better.

 

I could buy a change maybe not in three episodes but in three months if something really traumatic happened to her, like Tommy dying to save her.  But from what I can tell, nothing has happened in the last seven episodes to justify that kind of transformation on the road to Damascus for her..

[BkWurm1]

nothing has happened in the last seven episodes to justify that kind of transformation on the road to Damascus for her..

 

I might just buy into her transformation if a talking donkey shows up. 

[statsgirl]

From the Felicity thread:

I don’t think that Felicity was saying that Sara was without any light or an accidental hero or not there for the right reasons nor do I think she was saying that Laurel was coming from so much better a place or could be somehow better than Sara.  I think it was a hackneyed way of trying to make Laurel understand she can’t walk in Sara’s footsteps because she didn’t walk Sara’s life.

 

Felicity says that Sara wore her mask as much to hide her demons as she did to help people and I think that was true but that doesn’t IMO detract from what Sara did or how Felicity felt about her. 

 

Sara had a dark past that pushed her to defend the defenseless, likely as much because of what happened to her as by what she was forced into doing.  She chose to put her life on the line to save others from the things the no one was able to save her from.  Helping others wasn’t her trying to even the scales or absolve her past (she didn’t think that was possible.)  She helped because she felt it was the right thing to do.  She was shaped by that darkness but it wasn’t a hindrance to her being a hero, it is what compelled her forward as a hero.  But Laurel can’t come from the same place. 

 

Felicity says she doesn’t see the same thing in Laurel and I agree.  I can’t credit the suffering or issues Laurel has had with being a strong enough motivator to be the reason why she would continue to go out and fight.  Any of her brushes with “darkness” aren’t a strong enough base for her to be pushed forward from within. So we have Felicity saying she doesn’t see the reason Laurel puts on the mask as the same as why Sara did and again I think that’s valid because Laurel doesn’t have the life experience to draw from.  That belonged to Sara and Laurel can’t follow in Sara’s footsteps, she has to find her own reasons and stop trying to copy Sara. 

 

Now for “You have a light inside of you that Sara never had”  It’s a crap line and I blame the writers more than I hold Felicity accountable and I’ll get into that soon.  Laurel isn’t someone filled with a wondrous light but she does lack the darkness Sara had that is the very thing that she channeled into her mask to create good.  That is the only context that Laurel has any more light than Sara. So Felicity then tells Laurel basically to find her own reason to keep wearing a mask and also that doing so is ok. 

 

Personally I think Felicity offering any moral support or encouragement  is stupid since I think Laurel putting on a mask is stupid but Felicity right now is all about not taking away anyone’s right to make their own choices.  Not surprising since that is exactly what Oliver had been doing to her all year.  So while I think it a poor choice to back Laurel, I understand her reasons and I truly don’t think Felicity meant anything insulting or denigrating to Sara or what she accomplished and I think we have the support and context of the rest of the season ( and before) to back that up. 

[snip]

I also don’t think we have any reason to accept that Felicity would feel that Laurel is going to be a better version of Sara.  Again, I blame a crap line for the thing about the light because the rest of Felicity’s message isn’t much different than what she said before - that living up to Sara’s legacy  couldn’t be the motivator for what Laurel was doing.  It seems that again Felicity is telling Laurel to stop trying to be Sara- cause she can’t but she can be herself and that might be enough (Yeah, agree to disagree Ms. Smoak)  In 3.11 Felicity let Laurel off the hook in trying to be as good as Sara and this week she’s basically doing the same thing.   

Sara’s reason’s aren’t Laurel’s, they can’t be and Laurel needs to stop comparing herself to Sara if she hopes to keep going (again, please Stop Laurel, please)  That’s the only message I’m willing to accept. 

I still think that the line about Laurel having a light is about the writing trying to say that Laurel is superior to Sara.  But ....

 

I think that the demons that Sara had to fight made her a better vigilante than Laurel is.  What's driving Laurel right now is anger and it makes her feel better to beat up people, and a sense that this will make her a hero, if she takes over Sara's mantle of the Canary.  Both of those are selfish reasons, and not the best motivator for a vigilante.  She also didn't go through the fire that Sara and Oliver did so as a blade, she's weaker.

 

I have no doubt that by the end of the season, Laurel will be retconned into the bestest vigialnte ever but they're still not doing it the right way for me to believe it.

[Morena]

Arrow: 5 Characters That Would Make A Better Black Canary

http://whatculture.com/tv/arrow-5-characters-that-would-make-a-better-black-canary.php

[statsgirl]

Good points. I wish she had included Sin too.

 

I could even see Moira doing if better if she were 30 years younger.  That would be one really complex Black Canary.

[catrox14]

There is no compelling reason for Laurel to even be a vigilante from the get go so they will never sell me on what she is doing on any level.

 

She was already in a position to deliver justice as an ADA. The justice might not have been to her satisifaction but it would have been justice nonetheless. And she was already working with Oliver in the "you catch em, I fry em" thing.  Why was that no longer okay for her? 

 

I never bought that her sister's murder really rocked her world so much that it led her to this path. Vengeance is not the same as justice and Oliver learned that. He wanted vengeance but soon realized that was not what being a hero meant. It meant not killing because killing was satisfying the vengeance but it wasn't always satisfying justice.  Not too mention it was basically murder, not that I cared that he murdered the no goodniks.

 

At this point there is literally nothing they can do that will ever get me to accept that LL's Black Canary is a hero.

[Starfish35]

They should have taken her law career away from her in order for her to have a reason to seek justice another way. (Or not given it to her in the first place but that's a different conversation.) It's ridiculous that they're trying to have her do both, although I suspect by the end of the season the ADA position will go by the wayside. But the thing is, they built themselves up to that point twice before. After the season one finale would have been a great time for Laurel down this path. She lost her job at CNRI, and the loss of Tommy.....instead of putting her in the DA's office with a grudge against the Arrow and a drug addiction, why not show her out working in the Glades, trying to find a way to help people? It would have been a great chance to see that big heart they keep talking about. Then again, when she lost her job due to her drug addiction...again, a perfect time to send her down a different path, with possibly Sara as a mentor/teacher. But no. Six episodes she's blackmailed herself back into her job. So then Sara dies.....and she gets all angry and starts trying to emulate Sara? Ok. And then they have the nerve to say she has a light inside her that Sara never had. Ah.....what? *shakes head* I'm not seeing a light, I'm seeing a severely emotionally disturbed individual.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[KenyaJ]

There is no compelling reason for Laurel to even be a vigilante from the get go so they will never sell me on what she is doing on any level.

 

I think the intro to the article Morena posted summed it up perfectly:

 

By virtue of her name, Laurel Lance had a comic destiny to one day take up the mantle of master martial artist Black Canary.

 

Not due to anything compelling in her story or characterization, but simply due to her name, we're stuck with this bad superhero knock-off. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

[KirkB]

I remember back in season two, when the mysterious woman in black started showing up I just assumed it was Laurel because of the comics. So when it turned out to be Sara I was pleasantly surprised. I thought maybe the EP's were doing more of their own thing rather than being hamstrung by comics, which is more interesting and should be the point of an adaptation. For those of you who hated Smallville I liked that it was an adaptation, their own spin on the comics while not being beholden to them. Arrow, though, apparently intended to be beholden to the comics no matter what, even when their own Canary turned out to be more popular than the one they were planning to create. Laurel could have been an interesting character on her own without ever being the Canary, they just decided to hold off a lot of character development and not give her much to do while they found a way to cram her in the suit.

Edited February 15, 2015 by KirkB

[pootlus]

The sad thing is that here and on TWoP people thought of several logical destinies for Laurel - some of which KC could have played well. Instead we got 'because comics' and other characters being killed or podded to support her 'journey'.

[statsgirl]

From the The Return (3x14) thread:

 

At the time I assumed that Tommy's death was just more angst for the L/O star crossed blech, but looking back I'm not so sure they weren't already considering abandoning that 'ship. I think the main problem is that they didn't consider what was best for Laurel's story in season 2. Yes, Tommy's death provided an emotional kick for her, but it was weighed down by the fact that she ran back to Oliver hours before he died, so how much could she have really loved him anyway? It would have been better for her to have Tommy there, even if they were at odds, because it would have been another person (besides Quentin) for her to interact with, and it probably would have kept her somewhat connected to the main plot since Tommy knew Oliver's secret. Instead they left her twisting in the wind for most of season 2. Even bringing back Sara was a way for the producers to have their Insta-Canary more than it was about what was best for Laurel's journey IMO. If it had been about Laurel, I don't think they would have inserted Oliver into the sisters' story all season. I think keeping Malcolm and killing Tommy had a lot more to do with what they thought was best for Oliver's story in the long run, and I think Sara happened because they thought it would be cool and also add interest to Oliver's story. So, they waffled around trying to figure out what to do with Laurel in the mean time, but at no point do I think they considered killing her because she's Dinah Laurel Lance. I think they were just trying to shift gears because L/O crashed and burned as a 'ship (you know it's bad when more people are shipping brother and sister than the planned OTP) and lost Laurel's path along the way. It would probably be interesting if they killed off Malcolm and brought Tommy back at this point. I've been against that idea in the past, but the show is way off any sense of reality and real world consequences at this point, so they might as well.

I should add that this is why KC was only the female lead on paper for two seasons. They just didn't have time to tell Laurel's origin story between Oliver's FB and his present day problems. They threw a lot of stuff out into the story ether, but none of it was really telling a cohesive origin story for her. This season that's suddenly changing and most critics agree it's a train wreck because it's too much at once.

I think Tommy's death would have worked to push her into vigilanteism even more with the Oliver booty call because it would have made her feel more guilty and ashamed that she'd thrown away Tommy's love like that.  Unfortunately, they had her put the blame on The Hood for not saving him (from a rebar through his body?), and when she realized her mistake, she got lost in a bottle.  They could have had her fight for justice on Tommy's behalf at three different places -- when he died, when she stopped blaming the Hood and started blaming herself to atone, and when she stopped her addiction.  Unfortunately they did none of these.

 

Even if they were too busy setting up the finale with Slade and Sara, they could still have had Laurel take boxing lessons to work out her anger, or mention she's doing something to help the disenfranchised in Tommy's name since he had helped her save CNRI.  It would have taken maybe 30 seconds and set up her rise to BC in season 3.

 

I don't think they should have killed her off necessarily (even if it would have improved my s3 of the show) but when they realized there were so many problems with the character, they should have changed her direction and kept Sara. As the EPs said at SCCC last summer, some characters don't reach their comic destinies. Laurel should have been one who gets a different destiny than in the comics because even now that she's on the Team and wearing the black leathers, she's still a huge problem for the show in terms of what to do with her.  (As is her costume, which will never be not ridiculous. Does KC have blackmail pictures, that they let her decide on fingerless gloves so the Black Canaries nail polish can match her lipstick and look more feminine?  How can I ever take a character like that seriously as a vigilante?)

 

That the s2 Laurel story was a mess and makes it harder to accept what they're doing with her in s3 is inexcusable even if they did concentrate on Oliver's story instead.  I mean, there are 3 EPs and a bunch of writers and story editors.  Someone should have said "Hey, what are we going to do with Laurel?  Shouldn't we be setting up her future now?

 

I've read that Benjamin Franklin was so impressed with the Five Nations councils that he wrote some of their ideas into the American Constitution. One of the things they did when making an important decision was to select two people to speak for generations in the future. In the Arrow writers room, if Laurel is really that important in the show's narrative, they should have had someone speaking for her story.

Edited February 20, 2015 by statsgirl

[poetgirl925]

I really think in S1 and 2 that they made a plan for the overall direction and for Oliver and then tried to make it work for Laurel, and there is a huge difference between trying to make a plan work for a character and making a plan FOR that character. Her storyline should never have revolved around romance if they ever intended her to reach this point. After all the fuss over those damn files at CNRI, I expected Laurel to be going in a different direction in season 2. I agree that Tommy's death could have worked there, but again they made it more about Oliver's story than Laurel's. These recent episodes are a mess because they're finally giving focus and direction to Laurel (and to everyone else) but it's too fast to be a good origin story and they've kind of shoved Oliver out of the picture to do it. It almost feels like a reverse S1 and S2 - they made a plan for Laurel and Ray and Thea and Malcolm, and they're trying to make that work for Oliver. I really feel like his journey has been lost this season, and that's a problem because the show is called Arrow - not Black Canary or Atom or the Justice League. I don't think the show is big enough for everyone they're now trying to shove into the spotlight.

[statsgirl]

The show is way too crowded.  I think it goes downhill when there are more than four people in the Arrow cave, and I insist on two of them being Diggle and Felicity.  As much as I liked Sara, Diggle and Felicity got pushed back when she and Roy joined, and the advantage of Sara was that she could be a recurring character, moving between Team Arrow and the LoA.  And now it looks like Thea is going to join too.

 

I don't see what Laurel's story is going to be able to be after this origin arc is wrapped up because it seems like there is nowhere for her to go now.  Even Felicity has an outside story with Ray. Diggle has ARGUS and HIVE and Thea has the club but there's nothing for Laurel.  It seems like they have no interest in her being a lawyer any more.  Is she just going to hang around beating up bad guys all the time?  Help Ted Grant run the gym?  Even if they have put in a bunch of origin stories for this season for Laurel, Ray and Thea, in the end, it still have to be about Oliver's journey, and it has to be about him running his Team.  I don't see how it can work being the Oliver&Laurel show.

 

I still have hopes that the next step for Laurel is going to be off the show, whether in Nanda Parbat or somewhere else.

[poetgirl925]

I don't think it really will work as the Oliver and Laurel show when they've so clearly abandoned the romantic storyline. Laurel needs her own people to interact with, for one thing. Ted Grant has been a fail this season because they've barely used him. This is where I think keeping Tommy around might have helped her. Sure, they could have made his death work better for her, but his presence would still have been better IMO. I honestly can't imagine what they were thinking, ending S1 on such an unlikeable note for her and then giving her no one to talk to but Quentin in S2 as they proceeded to make her even more annoying. This season they have to force unearned bonding with people she never gave the time of day to before now in order to give her a support system. Honestly, if Laurel was so damn important to the story and KC was really the female lead, she should have her own support system rather than having to hijack Oliver's. I guess part of that is the EPs never seem to realize just how badly they write for her, but I don't see how isolating her was supposed to help her origin story. It wasn't a crucible; it was bad planning because they got distracted by Sara's origin story. Also, the show has never been big enough for two leads - not when we've got two origin stories going on with Oliver. And clearly they were being literal when they said this season was rewarding WH and KC by giving them more focus. Maybe the season would be working at least a tiny bit better if they weren't also trying to shove Ray into the mix? It wouldn't make Laurel's bullshit 3 episode hero journey any better, but maybe the season would be a little more more cohesive.

[statsgirl]

The fact that Laurel's time is anywhere close to Diggle's, or ever Roy's given that he's been on the Team for a year, is so, so wrong.

From my perspective as a fan, sure.

 

From the perspective of the show and the CW, not necessarily.  Katie Cassidy is still the second billed on the show; she was hired to be the lead actress, and paid the appropriate salary for that position. By that perspective, she should have more screentime than anyone other than Oliver. But even with five episodes focused on her, she doesn't.

John Barrowman, who is a regular this year, has the coveted "with" position which usually has higher status, and money, than the people following the first billed performer.  I have no idea how much money he gets compared to how much Katie Cassidy gets, but Barrowman doesn't come cheap.  As a regular this season, he's had only 40% of the screen time Katie Cassidy has had, but I'd be guessing the CW thinks he's worth it.

 

The money her contract stipulates she gets paid is a sunk cost.  From the perspective of the CW, if KC doesn't bring the eyeballs and if viewers are less likely to watch if the show is Laurel-heavy than if it isn't, it's a mistake to give her more screentime.  From the perspective of the show, the same.

 

The bottom line is whether the screentime a character gets is going to make viewers more likely or less likely to tune in for the rest of the episodes.  I think Thea's storyline lately (topic!) is going to make her more interesting and people will want to tune in to see what happens with her.  We'll have to see if that's true for the effort they've put into making Laurel the Black Canary.

 

Are there more people like me?  After Canaries, I decided that I would either mute or fast-forward Laurel scenes, although I broke my rule for Tommy.  If she's in the lair fulltime next season, I'm considering dropping the show.

 

If general viewers feel the same as many people here, that Laurel becoming the Black Canary and spending time in the lair is going to make them less inclined to watch the show rather than more, the show and the CW need to eat the price of how much they're spending on her, limit her role on the show, and do more research next time.

 

 

I guess part of that is the EPs never seem to realize just how badly they write for her, but I don't see how isolating her was supposed to help her origin story. It wasn't a crucible; it was bad planning because they got distracted by Sara's origin story.

I think "distracted" is the right word.  These EPs have a short attention span -- they love the idea of Dinah Laurel Lance as the Black Canary but they aren't actually interested enough in her to put the time into writing her story well. Or even half-decently.

Edited February 21, 2015 by statsgirl

[Shanna]

I really wish they had kept tommy for laurel. Her scenes with tommy and with her dad are the only ones where the character really works for me.

[calliope1975]

Are there more people like me?  After Canaries, I decided that I would either mute or fast-forward Laurel scenes, although I broke my rule for Tommy.  If she's in the lair fulltime next season, I'm considering dropping the show.

 

I do the same thing. I fast forward and try to pretend that Laurel isn't on the show. I'm afraid my intense dislike for the character (in my top 3 hated all-timers with Sonny Corinthos and Babe Carey) is bleeding over onto the actress, and I hate that. I know KC is only doing what they're are asking of her but my moderate dislike from S1 turned into severe annoyance in S2, and took a sharp turn to hate this year. Sadly, I can think of a hundred ways TIIC could have made me like Laurel. The chemistry with SA was a no go from the beginning, but I think the Show could have created a nice place for Laurel. They didn't, though, and I'm left with what I feel, even if it's irrational.

[poetgirl925]

I watch it all, including parts with Laurel, because I'm trying to follow the entire narrative. If it gets to a point where I'm fast forwarding through parts, I'll probably quit watching because I don't have time to watch shows that upset me to that degree. Arrow has already gone from something to which I gave my full attention to a show I watch when I'm cooking dinner or exercising on the treadmill or elliptical. I'm spoiler free at least, so that helps me hope something better is coming. But if I don't start seeing the focus back on Oliver in the next episode or two, I'm going to stop watching. I'll save the remainder of the season for just before SDCC like I did last year and hope that by watching them all together, I won't have time to get angry enough to quit altogether.

[Pyramid]

I've stopped watching because of Laurel and the effect she's having on the rest of the show. I'll binge them at some point probably, but right now her character has killed the show for me

[KirkB]

I'm not ready to give up on the show, in spite of the fact I hate what they are doing with Laurel. She was barely in this last episode and it was from a period we never got to see and it was helped by the fact Tommy was there. Colin was, IMO, the only person Katie has ever had chemistry of any sort with. Some of her scenes with Paul used to be good but this season ruined that. If going forward the focus of the show becomes Laurel and Roy alongside Oliver, with Diggle and Felicity either gone or greatly reduced, THAT will be enough to turn me away.

[icandigit]

I'll be curious to see what happens with Laurel as BC. I guess right now she's suppose to be in the beginning stages so I guess it would be too soon to call it.  But, on the other hand seeing Thea on the island really highlighted how much Laurel as BC isn't cutting it. I don't really hate her as BC because she so fades into the background. It's like Laurel of seasons past, bland. But, a superhero even in the beginning should have some thing that makes you root for them and think they can pull it off. Thea has this steeliness about her that demands attention. At most this BC will be a character that does fight scenes. Nothing more appealing than any random minion of the villain of the week. She just doesn't carry herself in a way that is convincing for me.

Edited February 22, 2015 by icandigit

[Chaser]

Thea and Laurel are an interesting parallel. I don't understand why they are showing Laurel (who has a full time job) training for a few months with a boxer to become BC. And at the same time, show Thea training for the past 8 months with The Dark Archer (who was trained by Ra's). 

[poetgirl925]

What I don't understand is why Thea makes a decision to actively learn to protect herself after being kidnapped a couple of times, but Laurel, who was tranqed and kidnapped more than Thea, didn't start learning ANYTHING until a few episodes into the season. How does this make any sense? Why couldn't Laurel have started boxing or whatever during the hiatus? Because they wanted a meet-cute with Grant? I would love to hear what goes on in the writers room re:Laurel because I've never seen such a string of silly decisions made about a character on any other show I watch. Thea is more believable (even with the shortened time frame training all characters but Oliver get) simply because she trained full time with someone I believe is a damn good fighter, she's still needed help in her fights, she's not out LOOKING for fights since she did this for rational, self-defense reasons, and they haven't rushed her into a costume. I honestly don't understand how they expect this Black Canary arc to look good in comparison to literally every other hero journey, including the Atom, who just arrived 14 episodes ago. They could have stretched it out over the whole season, but no. Why do they make her fail? It's like they're doing it on purpose, but I know they aren't.

And yes, I know they're relying on the comic folks to say "But Ted Grant" but I still call BS because this Ted Grant was not Wildcat. This was the worst, WORST iteration of an iconic comic character (besides the current version of BC) I've ever seen. I still get mad about how they chose to misuse Grant here. Epic fail all around. Just the worst. :(

Edited February 22, 2015 by poetgirl925

[wonderwall]

What I don't understand is why Laurel started boxing but is using none of the techniques she's learned out into the field and is using a weapon that she's never touched in her life and had zero practice with? There's no logic in that. 

 

And I hated the retcon where Laurel told her father she was destined to be BC. No. She wasn't. 7 years ago her destiny was to marry Oliver and be a lawyer and have kids and blah... Her speech to Quentin (in which she made Quentin's grief all about herself) made me hate her so much in an episode where i didn't mind her at all.. smh

[apinknightmare]

What I don't understand is why Laurel started boxing but is using none of the techniques she's learned out into the field and is using a weapon that she's never touched in her life and had zero practice with? There's no logic in that. 

 

I think maybe they're trying to show that she's still not that good with the hand-to-hand fighting - it's easier to swing at people with a heavy object than to land a punch? That's all I got.

[wonderwall]

I think maybe they're trying to show that she's still not that good with the hand-to-hand fighting - it's easier to swing at people with a heavy object than to land a punch? That's all I got.

 

I mean if that's the case, then why did it seem like in episode 12 that she hadn't seen Ted in months? Maybe since episode 6 which is the last time we saw him? If she's so dedicated to go out into the streets she must do some training on the side right? She's not that stupid right? 

 

Also, you can't learn how to use a weapon just by swinging it from side to side. You need to train with a weapon. How in the world does Laurel have time to train and be a lawyer as well as go out at night to fight crime? Is she wonder woman or something? smh

[Chaser]

I think they just want her to have a weapon. Oliver and Roy have a bow & arrow, Sara had a bo-staff and Diggle has a gun. I'm assuming they think it looks bad-ass. Which it would …..if she knew how to use it

Edited February 23, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[apinknightmare]

I mean if that's the case, then why did it seem like in episode 12 that she hadn't seen Ted in months? Maybe since episode 6 which is the last time we saw him? If she's so dedicated to go out into the streets she must do some training on the side right? She's not that stupid right? 

 

Also, you can't learn how to use a weapon just by swinging it from side to side. You need to train with a weapon. How in the world does Laurel have time to train and be a lawyer as well as go out at night to fight crime? Is she wonder woman or something? smh

 

Well, that was kind of my point - she hasn't been boxing, and she hasn't been training with a weapon. She just wanted to go out there, so she grabbed what she could use without having much skill - clearly Sara's bo staff didn't work, so she found the tonfa (where, who knows) and uses that because she can use it without having to know how to use it. She does need to train with it. And I totally think she'd go out there without having boxed in a couple of months or doing training on the side. She has a delusional self-confidence about her.

 

This whole thing just isn't working that well because she's oddly proficient (to make it seem like she's not so completely out of her element that Oliver and co would physically stop her from going out and hurting herself), and yet not proficient enough (to show us that she still has a long way to go). They bungled it in their rush to get her in the buckles - surprise, surprise. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Actionmage]

I'm sorry, Laurel; was that you objecting to someone using torture on a less than sterling citizen?  I know a dead body that might like to debate your stance. At least you goggled at the assassin after you tried to cause more physical damage to an injured suspect.

[Sakura12]

Laurel is really going to be handed everything that was Sara's isn't she. Sees Sara being a hero, "I want". Sara literately drops dead at her feet. Puts on Sara's costume and is all ready to got out and fight crime with no training, sees Sara's girlfriend, said girlfriend wants to be her BFF and train her for no reason at all. If Bex hadn't gotten a job on another show, Sin probably would've been handed to Laurel too. 

[dtissagirl]

The writers' entire thinking in Laurel's journey seems to be "if it worked for Sara, it will work for Laurel". And since Sara's journey laid out a pretty good amount of groundwork, I bet they figure it's easier to just transfer everything to Laurel rather than build her from scratch. Because women are totally interchangeable, dontcha know? I mean, they're giving Laurel's entire S1 romance storyline to Felicity anyway.

[Betweenthisandthat]

I'm holding out hope that sooner or later, Nyssa in some way will be involved in training Laurel.  She'll gain some skills from her, Nyssa will become acclimated to her new life, seeing as it's been hinted that she'll be away from the League for awhile.  
 

I'm also loving that while Laurel is struggling, she keeps trying and isn't taking any of Oliver's bs because he's so full of it right now.  He basically calls her emotional while he goes to save Malcolm out of pride.  Her arc are one of the few things I'm excited to watch on this show.