Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Starfish35]

On Laurel's redemption as a character: "I think season two for Laurel -- it was definitely interesting. I had no idea where they planned to go," said Cassidy. "Season two for Laurel was her island -- you have to hit rock bottom before you can come out the other side. I didn't know where it was headed, but she got into drugs and alcohol, numbing the pain and emotionally, it obviously took a toll on her -- and myself, and the rest of the cast!" [Laughs]

"It was great because the writers gave her such a beautiful arc. At the end of it, Sara gives her the jacket -- I remember shooting that scene and I could not stop laughing! Every time I put the jacket on, I had this grin," said Cassidy. "It was definitely tough because all our characters went through something that was dark and deep and came out the other side."

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54524 Edited September 19, 2014 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

At least KC was acknowledging she had no idea where they were planning to go. If that was her island, it was a really short stay. She didn't really hit rock bottom; She just kinda bounced off of it. 

 

Thanks btw for finding that info.

[Guest]

Yikes. Yeah, um, personally I don't think she was at rock bottom long enough. They should have had her spiral the whole season and maybe start to come out the other side going into s3. The addiction storyline didn't really come across as her island tbh even though I appreciated what they were trying to do.

[ban1o]

Yikes. Yeah, um, personally I don't think she was at rock bottom long enough. They should have had her spiral the whole season and maybe start to come out the other side going into s3. The addiction storyline didn't really come across as her island tbh even though I appreciated what they were trying to do.

Do you want people to hate her character even more? So many people complained about the addiction storyline and used it as a reason to hate on her. lol 

[Chaser]

There in lays the Catch-22 with Laurel. She needs quality story telling to work, but that requires screentime.

 

I don't like that they went with the addiction plot because you can't half ass it. They should have along gone all the way and stretch it the entire season. Would it have worked? I doubt it, but at least I would feel the writers cared about her. 

[wonderwall]

The Problem of Laurel Lance:

 

One thing I hate most about this show is how much of a missed opportunity and a waste Laurel is. While some people argue that Felicity is a flat/underdeveloped character, I'd argue that Laurel is probably more of those things than Felicity is (you can check out my analysis of her in the Felicity thread).

 

Backstory:
What do we really know about Laurel's past? We know as much about Laurel's past as we do about Felicity's, at first glance though a stark difference you find is that Laurel's past is centered around Oliver and not herself which right off the bat is a show of weak characterization and not an emphasis of her character right now.

 

So what do we know? She dated Oliver despite how many people have told her he's not a good person, she went to law school which indicates that she's intelligent, she had a rocky relationship with her sister because of Oliver and possibly other reasons, and that she suffered because of Oliver/Sara running off. From what we've seen and been told and shown about Laurel's past, I come up with more questions than answers. How did Laurel/Oliver become friends in the first place if they were different? What made Laurel like Oliver? And what did Oliver like about Laurel? You see that the writers did a shoddy job at establishing her backstory. We never really got a sense of what Laurel was like in the past, only what her relationship was like with Oliver.

 

If I were to base my analysis of Laurel purely on her backstory, it doesn’t make her look any good. None of her positive qualities were highlighted which is why it was difficult for me to sympathize with Laurel and the position she was in when Sara/Oliver ran off together. Laurel’s backstory makes it look as though she's a character who's deluded herself with her relationship with Oliver. You don't see Laurel's strength, you don't see Laurel's independence, no, you see her sheer delusion which undercut a lot of qualities Laurel probably possessed like her intelligence. You may see it another way, but I guess to each his own.

 

So in Laurel’s case, her backstory didn’t really enrich her character because it highlighted her bad qualities rather than her good ones.

 

Characterization:
If you were to ask me “Who is Laurel Lance?”, I would probably tell you something superficial like Laurel is a lawyer who went through a lot of stuff (it’d take a while to list everything that happened to her), but that’s the problem, listing what happened to her says nothing of her character. Which shows how underdeveloped she is. One would argue that Laurel is a myriad of things, she’s a fighter, a do-gooder, intelligent, badass, persistent, strong, has a strong moral code, irrational, hard-headed, etc. But I find that there are a lot of scenarios that debunk these characteristics. Which leads me to…

 

One of the main problems with Laurel’s characterization is that it’s extremely inconsistent. While I know what Felicity, Oliver, or even Diggle do or say in certain situations, I don’t know what Laurel would do. I don’t know when she’s out of character or when she’s in character. We’ve been told that Laurel’s a myriad of things, but the problem is, is that whatever Laurel does on screen defies what we’ve been told. Laurel isn’t a do-gooder because we’ve seen her blackmail people and we’ve seen her kill someone with no remorse, she isn’t intelligent because we’ve never seen her win a case, her badass moments are sorely eclipsed by Sara’s badass moments and even Felicity’s, Laurel isn’t a fighter because we’ve seen her damseled way too many times, Laurel doesn’t have a strong moral code because, again, she’s blackmailed people for her own sake, nor is she strong (emotionally) because of her downward spiral which didn’t make sense at all. The only characteristic that wasn’t undercut by any of Laurel’s actions is her persistence. This is actually something I liked about Laurel, but one consistent characteristic does not make a good character.

 

In order to try to understand Laurel, I then looked at the decisions she’s made on the show as well as her thought process and it didn’t make her look any better. Laurel’s decisions made her look irrational and made it seem she doesn’t think things through (undertaking), she never learned from her mistakes (going to help team arrow in episode 2x21), she doesn’t listen to people (undertaking then 2x21), she changes her mind about the hood/arrow/oliver every 2 episodes which makes her look wishy washy. It begs the question, why do the writers always emphasize Laurel’s weaknesses and undercut Laurel’s strengths by making her do stupid things? It’s a question with no answer, I suppose.

 

---

 

Laurel is the only character I don’t understand, because she lacks a solid foundation, and just because her character had her own arc, it doesn’t make her a developed character, it just means that Laurel has gone through more issues than Felicity or Digg. Her arc probably did more damage than help her which goes to show that characters don’t need their own arcs in order to be developed.

 

In the end, what is character development without a strong foundation and consistency?

 

It can also be argued that Laurel is a fairly static character in the sense that after all the supposed moral trauma she went through; she ended up right where she began. Nothing changed, not her personality, not her understanding of the world, nothing. She’s still the same Laurel Lance we saw in the first episode. But what made it worse is just how quickly Laurel got over her issues which begs the question of how bad it really was for Laurel and whether or not she was just doing it for the attention. 

 

These issues with Laurel is what made people have trouble sympathizing with Laurel in the first place. Why would we feel bad for someone we don’t understand or can’t connect to on some level?

 

What do I hope for Laurel in the future? Consistency. I also hope that the writers don’t push Laurel’s faults under the rug and turn her into this perfect woman. There’s no such thing as a reset button for characters in TV shows, and unfortunately, we can’t forget all of Laurel’s failures in the past two seasons. I hope to like Laurel in the future, but I’m extremely pessimistic about it.

 

I apologize for the essay length. Whoever read this deserves an entire cake tbqh. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by wonderwall

[icandigit]

I guess Laurel could disappear and come back in the series finale as the BC. And intermittently  during the prior seasons have them show her away somewhere life threatening. Maybe someone kidnaps her because of Sara or something. Her family can't find her, something something that I can fast forward through.

[scarynikki12]

My big concern with the addiction story is that there was no foundation.  Yes, Quentin is an addict who succumbed following Sara's presumed death, but that just means he needs to take each day as it comes and stick to his method of recovery.  Making Laurel one too just screamed of the writers deciding on a whim that she needed a meaty story for season 2.  That's why it didn't work.  With the proper foundation, it still could have worked, no matter what the acting was like.  If this had been planned since the pilot (which I don't believe it was), it would have been really simple to set it up: always show Laurel with an alcoholic beverage in her hand in social situations, maybe have her get a bad sprain following one of her early damsel in distress scenes and show a prescription for pain killers, and then spend the first half of season 2 showing her react to Tommy's death with an abuse of alcohol and drugs and demonstrate escalation by having her be tipsy in her social scenes and showing the painkillers in her purse.  They didn't need to call dramatic attention to it until it was time for others to start noticing it, so just having it be a part of the scenery until then would have been enough.  When the time came for Laurel to admit her addiction, then they could bring in her guilt over her role in Tommy's death, differentiating it from the shipwreck in her reaction to it.

 

It could have worked as a way to show the emotional turmoil Laurel was in as she dealt with Tommy's death, Malcolm destroying part of her city, and her guilt connecting them both, but it really felt like the writers were in the room, unable to think of a believable story for Laurel that would fit with everything else going on, and then one of them remembered her father's an addict and BOOM! so is she. 

[Starfish35]

I actually think the addiction arc might have been more tolerable if it hadn't been so superficially written. Not to mention there were absolutely ZERO long term consequences for her, as many people have pointed out.

That said, two things, one of which I think I've said before. I don't necessarily subscribe to this viewpoint that the show has that every character has to go through an "island experience." They need motivation, yes, but I don't agree that every character has to be broken down in order to become a superhero. I know it's the show's viewpoint, but I don't agree with it.

Secondly, it's always a risk when you take a character and do a breakdown/addiction/dark arc with them. The audience already has to have a bond with that character in order to want to take that journey with them/empathize with that journey. It's not a way to make a character more likeable.

The producers said recently that Sara coming on as Black Canary last season had been planned for a long time. I originally assumed that she was brought on in response to Laurel's unpopularity, but now I'm thinking that they are probably still to a large degree sticking to the original five-year plan they had for Laurel in the beginning, minus the Lauriver aspect, and that always included Sara as Canary 1.0 and Laurel's downward spiral in season two.

There's a couple of problems with that. First, they aren't taking into consideration Laurel's extreme unpopularity and trying to adjust their plans for that. If Laurel had been a fandom darling, Sara coming on wouldn't have been a threat, and the audience would have been more willing to cut her some slack on the addiction arc. But she wasn't. They should taken a look at that and realized that both things (Sara and the addiction arc) were far more likely to be detrimental to an already unpopular character than they were to help her, and adjusted their plans accordingly.

And secondly, the writers are far too easily distracted by new shiny toys to ever give her arc the attention it needs anyway. Sara ended up stealing the show and Laurel got pushed to the background. And her so-called arc was only a matter of a couple of random and unconvincing scenes up until Blind Spot.

I still think they could probably have fixed her after season one (even with my frustration with KC's acting). If Sara had never come along, if they'd used Tommy's death to drive an increasing dissatisfaction with the legal system instead of turning that toward the Arrow, if they'd focused on developing her as a character. People keep talking about Laurel being a more developed character than Felicity and in some respects maybe. But I feel like I understand who Felicity is and what drives her, even if I don't know her background. I don't understand Laurel at all. I don't know why she was a lawyer. I don't know why she wanted to help the people in the Glades with CNRI. I don't know what drives her. I don't understand why she was in love with Oliver. I don't understand her relationship with Tommy. I don't understand her relationship with her family. In short, I don't understand anything about this character, and I don't understand why I'm supposed to care other than that her name is Dinah Laurel Lance. She takes up space on the show. That's as far as it goes for me.

And that turned into more of a rant than I meant it to. I'll stop now. :(

ETA: And while I was typing this out, wonderwall and scarynikki12 made many of the same points far more coherently. :)

Edited September 19, 2014 by Starfish35

[KirkB]

How many episodes has Nyssa been in so far? Two? Three? Yet in that time, we have been shown (not just told) what her main motivations are. Serving her father and trying to win Sara back.

 

Anatoli. We saw him in only a few episodes and we know nothing about his background. yet we have a pretty good idea of what kind of guy he is.

 

Yao Fei. Shado. Ivo. Robert.

 

None of them were ever going to be main characters. Yet we understand pretty clearly who they were and why they did the things they did.

 

So why is it, after two seasons and more screen time than all of them combined, are there still so many people asking these kinds of questions about Laurel? Why was she with Oliver? Why was she at CNRI? You can blame KC's acting, at least in part, for why Laurel is so flat out unpopular, but it is square on the shoulders of the writers and directors why no one seems to really understand Laurel Lance.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

 

I don't understand Laurel at all. I don't know why she was a lawyer. I don't know why she wanted to help the people in the Glades with CNRI. I don't know what drives her. I don't understand why she was in love with Oliver. I don't understand her relationship with Tommy. I don't understand her relationship with her family. In short, I don't understand anything about this character, and I don't understand why I'm supposed to care other than her name is Dinah Laurel Lance.

My bolding, because that's how I feel too.

So why is it, after two seasons and more screen time than all of them combined, are there still so many people asking these kinds of questions about Laurel? Why was she with Oliver? Why was she at CNRI? You can blame KC's acting, at least in part, for why Laurel is so flat out unpopular, but it is square on the shoulders of the writers and directors why no one seems to really understand Laurel Lance.

For me, it's the inconsistencies.  I want to know why Laurel is working at CNRI because through the whole two first seasons, she's so self-centered that it doesn't make sense that she would take a low -status low-income job like the one at CNRI.  In the episode where Tommy doesn't have money to get her a table at the hot new restaurant, she acts like someone should be fired because she's still waiting.

 

I want to know why she's with OIiver because she deliberately turned a blind eye to all the signs that  he's cheating on her, including a flat-out statement from Sara, so was she with him for the money and the status of being Oliver Queen's SO?   If she's so angry with him in the present, why is she put out when his EA wants to speak with him in private?  I wouldn't care but all these things are contradictory so what's the story?

 

Part of it is on the writers. But part of it is also on KC, who plays only the top note of any scene and who doesn't appear to fight for consistency for her character other than to be the Black Canary, unlike SA who keeps reminding the writers that Oliver doesn't drink or EBR who fought to keep the ponytail and glasses.

[catrox14]

At this point, I feel like I know everything there is to know about Laurel, but I don't know WHO she is. I have no idea what motivates her, whether she's kind or cruel, a pushover or a bitch, a smartypants or smartass, a good-doer or a blackmailer.  But because IMO KC gives her no nuance, or shading, or internal life to define WHO is Laurel Lance, by this point, I do not give a shit anymore. 

 

It's too late for me to have any interest in any thing Laurel does or whether she becomes a three dimensional character.  But alas, because the show just won't get rid of her, I'll just hold my nose until her scenes are over.

[Starfish35]

Part of this I think was created by having her relationship with Oliver pre-date the show. Oliver is the central character - in a sense we see everyone and get to know everyone through his eyes. By not ever allowing us to see their first meeting - to see their relationship developing, we miss out on learning to know her. Her relationship with the audience is framed by her relationship with Oliver on the show because Oliver is the viewpoint character. By contrast, Diggle, Felicity, Slade...all of these we meet and learn to know as Oliver does. Even Sara gets more than Laurel because we see her on the ship and the island and we learn how those things changed her. We don't have any of that kind of viewpoint for Laurel. She just is, and we're supposed to take that as written.

I'm really really not saying this well - is this making any sense to anyone?

Edited September 19, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

People say it's Laurel's destiny to become BC. I honestly don't understand this. It isn't her destiny because of some comic book that can easily be rebooted. 

 

Everything Laurel went through, all her inconsistencies, her faults, her mistakes will probably be shoved under the rug because of her 'destiny' and I think that sucks. I don't understand why names are important, I always thought that the importance of BC or GA were the people behind them and not their 'names'. 

[statsgirl]

Part of this I think was created by having her relationship with Oliver pre-date the show. Oliver is the central character - in a sense we see everyone and get to know everyone through his eyes. By not ever allowing us to see their first meeting - to see their relationship developing, we miss out on learning to know her. Her relationship with the audience is framed by her relationship with Oliver on the show because Oliver is the viewpoint character. By contrast, Diggle, Felicity, Slade...all of these we meet and learn to know as Oliver does. Even Sara gets more than Laurel because we see her on the ship and the island and we learn how those things changed her. We don't have any of that kind of viewpoint for Laurel. She just is, and we're supposed to take that as written.

September, 1998, first day of grade nine at Starling City Prep.  Laurel Lance enters, looking around curiously.  It's the first time she's been here except for the interview day.  The Lances don't have much money, her dad's a beat cop and her mother teaches sessional, but between bursaries and cutting back, they somehow swung the tuition and she's excited to go to such a prestigious school.  Suddenly, she sees a really cute guy with brownish blonde hair come up to her with a big smile.  "Hi, my name is Oliver Queen and this is my best friend Tommy.  Can I show you around?"

 

Would that help us understand Laurel?  I think there is too much between that first meeting and when he gets on the Queen's Gambit for a first meet to really help us understand Laurel when the other flashbacks didn't.  Oliver's relationships with Tommy, Thea and Sara,not to mention Moira and Robert, all pre-date the show too, but I can still get a good sense of who they are as people and what they mean to him.

 

I think the problem with Laurel is more that the pieces of the puzzle don't fit. Is she the wonderful girlfriend of Oliver's memory, or the pushy one who wanted them to move in together when he just wanted to have fun, or the selfish person who got her sister grounded so that she could make sure Oliver was  hers? Is she the unselfish lawyer for the poor, or the person who suggests Oliver fire Felicity and give Laurel her job and gets angry at her sister for ruining her life when her sister was presumed dead for 6 years? 

[ban1o]

People say it's Laurel's destiny to become BC. I honestly don't understand this. It isn't her destiny because of some comic book that can easily be rebooted. 

 

Everything Laurel went through, all her inconsistencies, her faults, her mistakes will probably be shoved under the rug because of her 'destiny' and I think that sucks. I don't understand why names are important, I always thought that the importance of BC or GA were the people behind them and not their 'names'. 

eh unless the writers change their mind suddenly, I'm pretty sure she'll still become BC. They foreshadowed it a lot in season 1 and they have still said recently that's direction they want her to go in. And they are bringing on wildcat who trained BC in the comics. I think the writers really struggled with her character and didn't know how to write her and made a mistake with the Laurel character in general on the show. KC might have been miscast, who knows. I think they are trying to reboot the character on the show but there haven't been many Laurel spoilers so I canèt say for sure. People who keep on denying that she'll become BC (and I see that a lot) are just kidding themselves though, cause I'm like 99% sure that's what the writers still want. You think KC has been training that hard for nothing lol?  Hopefully her character improves in season 3, and I think the writers might change her characterization slightly in S3.

Edited September 19, 2014 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

eh unless the writers change their mind suddenly, I'm pretty sure she'll still become BC. They foreshadowed it a lot in season 1 and they have still said recently that's direction they want her to go in. And they are bringing on wildcat who trained BC in the comics. I think the writers really struggled with her character and didn't know how to write her and made a mistake with the Laurel character on the show. KC might have been miscast, who knows. I think they are trying to reboot the character but there haven't been many Laurel spoilers so who knows for sure. People who keep on denying that she'll become BC (and I see that a lot) are just kidding themselves though, cause I'm like 99% sure that's what the writers still want. You think KC has been training that hard for nothing lol?  Hopefully her character improves in season 3, and I think the writers might change her characterization slightly in S3.

Well I didn't say she wasn't going to become BC, I was just trying to state that it's ludicrious that Laurel is going that direction because it's her 'destiny'. It's like the writers are trying to push Laurel into this plan they had for her even though she clearly doesn't fit. 

 

I know the writers are going to make her BC. It's kind of obvious (although I hope that they surprise me and make her manhunter). But I worry the way they're going to go about this is make Laurel look perfect almost mary-sue like in season 3 and ignore all of her past failures as a character and her weaknesses. It'd be like they're building up something on a weak foundation, and to me that's just not believable. You can't just sweep 2 years of terrible inconsistencies under the rug and expect people to just go with it. The audience isn't that stupid. So yeah, I remain ridiculously cautious about Laurel. 

[Chaser]

I know they are going to make Laurel the Black Canary. And unless S3 does a miracle on her character, I'm going to be calling BS to the finish line. If I make it that long, that is.

[Starfish35]

In reply to statsgirl....

No that's not what I meant. I'm really not articulating it well. Gahhhh. I meant more....if they'd never had a pre-Island relationship - if they'd met for the first time after Oliver came home and we got to know her as Oliver did....would that have helped (separate from the issue of removing the toxic backstory)?

And you're right about Tommy, Moira, and Thea. I wouldn't include Sara and Robert because I really don't know actually who Robert is, and Sara we did get to know through Oliver's eyes by including her in last year's flashbacks.

The difference I think between Tommy, Moira, Thea, and Laurel perhaps is that from the beginning, when Oliver returns, all three of those characters are pulled back into his orbit. They are part of his world - they're constantly interacting with him. And through that, just like Diggle and Felicity, we learn to know them.

Laurel stands apart, by design. She's the betrayed love. She's in her own orbit so to speak. And I'm not quite sure how they originally expected this to play out, but by keeping her separate, we don't really learn about her, because the show is determined that all things revolve around Oliver. What we do learn about Laurel is superficial. To a certain limited extent, Quentin eventually becomes our viewpoint character for learning about her, but he's not the main character, and so it doesn't quite work.

I'm just kind of thinking this out as I go along - thinking out loud so to speak. So I haven't fully thought through all of this. I'm just trying to get a grasp on it. Part of it certainly (IMO) is Katie Cassidy - I've always believed she was epically miscast in this role. But that's not all of it by a long shot. I'm just trying to get a grip on why Laurel is so blank to me as a character. How could the writers have better shown us who she was, have drawn us into her world, have made us understand her better? We know so little about Felicity, yet she is real to me in a way that Laurel is not. But why? I don't think it's just simply a matter of EBR being a more engaging actress (though, yes, I think she is).

Edited September 19, 2014 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

I think I see what you're saying, Starfish35.  Because the plot required that Laurel be angry at/keep apart from Oliver, we didn't get to see what she was like apart from him.

 

I agree, that's true in many of the episodes. But in season 1, we got to see her with Tommy, apart from Oliver. She pushed him away at first but when he proved himself with the fundraiser, she was caring and supportive at times and at others she did what she had done with Oliver, pushed too hard and expected him to do what she told him to (ask Oliver for a job) and when he didn't, she got angry and bitchy

 

Sometimes we also see Laurel through her father's eyes, someone she had to take home when he was too drunk to get there on his own, someone who had to prove himself to her, and later someone who was desperate to get her into rehab when she was drinking and taking drugs.

 

We also saw Laurel in Thea's story, first talking to her father to use his influence to get Thea's charges reduced, then mentoring Thea at CNRI, and occasionally lying to her and pushing Thea away when there was something else Laurel wanted to do (e.g.  speak to the guy at the Chinese embassy).  So we don't get a lot but we do get a bit of what Laurel is like away from Oliver in s1.  S2 in terms of Laurel was just a straight out mess, even though the EPs tried really hard to make her important.

 

I don't know why but after their first few episodes, I never got the sense of Laurel and Thea as being close although they should have been because Laurel was at the Queen Manor a lot when she was dating Oliver.  But when she went to speak to Thea at Moira's funeral, it just felt off.

We know so little about Felicity, yet she is real to me in a way that Laurel is not. But why? I don't think it's just simply a matter of EBR being a more engaging actress (though, yes, I think she is).

Watching the scene at Verdant where Felicity and Laurel first meet, it struck me how much harder EBR seems to work at her role than KC does.

[Starfish35]

But when she went to speak to Thea at Moira's funeral, it just felt off.

No kidding. If KC had been playing a character who was supposed to be oozing fake sympathy, I would say she knocked it out of the park. Unfortunately I believe we were supposed to read that scene as genuine, so....no Emmy this time - lol.

As for the rest, I don't know. Maybe I'm reaching. Maybe I'm just feeling guilty about being a KC "hater". Maybe it's just been too long since I watched season one. Oh well.

Enjoying the discussion at any rate. :)

[dtissagirl]

A lot of times I'm taken out of the story in the Laurel scenes because I feel the other actors are reacting to the good-doer altruistic heart of gold Laurel that maybe is in the scripts? While KC is playing her as invulnerable hardened unreacheable future-superhero just you wait I'll be BC one day Laurel. So I either think the other characters are dealing with Laurel like we deal with children/crazy people -- do not poke the beast -- or I have trouble understanding why Quentin/Sara/Tommy/Oliver even want to interact with her in the first place.

Edited September 19, 2014 by dancingnancy

[tv echo]

It's a catch-22 with Laurel at this point, isn't it?  Because of the botched-up characterization of her during the past two seasons, the only way to make Laurel more understandable going forward is to give her more flashbacks and more screen time.  But that would mean time diverted away from other characters.  I'd like to understand Laurel better if she's remaining on the show, but I don't want to see more of her on my TV.

[KirkB]

Exactly, tv echo. That's the problem. The only way they could possibly fix Laurel (for those who just dislike her or are ambivalent toward her, like me, I'm not sure those who outright hate her could ever be bought around) at this point is more screen time so they can actually show her growing and evolving, whether it is into a better person or just a fighter. But for two seasons those who have a problem with Laurel didn't want to see her as much as they have. So the more they work to help build her up the more they risk driving away even more of the people. Personally, I have never stopped watching a show because of a one character, no matter how much I might have hated them (looking at you, Joxer). I like Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Quentin, Thea, Sara, Malcolm. The action is fun. Just because I tend to blank out whenever Laurel is on screen does not take away from my enjoyment of the rest of the show, but that's just me.

[Matt K]

I honestly wouldn't put to much into Laurel being at CNRI.  I know a couple of people who either went or applied to jobs in that direction because those were the jobs available (not that they didn't want to help, but it wasn't their first interest).  So perhaps it was just Laurel needing a job (student loans are rough). 

[wonderwall]

I honestly wouldn't put to much into Laurel being at CNRI.  I know a couple of people who either went or applied to jobs in that direction because those were the jobs available (not that they didn't want to help, but it wasn't their first interest).  So perhaps it was just Laurel needing a job (student loans are rough). 

Huh, how much does a non-profit law firm pay? Considering the fact that Laurel's never really won a case on the show, she probably didn't get paid a lot. It's something I never really understood because if Laurel worked for a non-profit and needed to pay off student loans, wouldn't she still be in debt because of student loans? All I know is, is that Law School is super super expensive. 

[Starfish35]

Interesting. I'd always had the impression that she was supposed to be running the place - that she started it. Is that not accurate?

[Morrigan2575]

Based on the leaked pilot script no, she worked there but she wasn't in charge there was a supervisor.

 

It's soooo bad but reading the script and watching Batman Begins you can see just how much of the pilot was pulled from Nolan, especially Laurel.  

[SonofaBiscuit]

People who keep on denying that she'll become BC (and I see that a lot) are just kidding themselves though, cause I'm like 99% sure that's what the writers still want. You think KC has been training that hard for nothing lol?  

 

 

Well, KC believes some crazy stuff about her character, so I could believe that she just assumes that she will be BC and is training for it.  In her mind the fact that she has a jacket means that she will be BC.  That being said, I won't be surprised if they do make Laurel into BC... but I won't be surprised if they don't either.  If the audience and critic feedback regarding Laurel becoming BC is just awful and threatens to really negatively affect the show, I could see the EPs deciding to cut their losses.  Laurel could be going along training with Ted Grant, and then three quarters of the way through the season the EPs pull the rug out from under her and switch gears.  The EPs seem to love making things up as they go along, so I don't think that anything is set in stone yet.

[Starfish35]

Based on the leaked pilot script no, she worked there but she wasn't in charge there was a supervisor.

Really? Wow. That...kind of blows my mind actually, because all this time I thought CNRI was her own special "saving the world" project. And it makes the finale look even less understandable. I could kind of see her trying to save all the files if that was her business, but if it's not? I mean, not that I'm against someone being invested in their job, but.....I don't know. Somehow I always got the impression that she was in control of the whole thing. And how is she having final say over fundraisers and the like if she's not in charge? So very very confused.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Starfish35

[FurryFury]

It's soooo bad but reading the script and watching Batman Begins you can see just how much of the pilot was pulled from Nolan, especially Laurel.

 

I thought that was obvious even without reading the script. 

 

No kidding. If KC had been playing a character who was supposed to be oozing fake sympathy, I would say she knocked it out of the park. Unfortunately I believe we were supposed to read that scene as genuine, so....no Emmy this time - lol.

 

She's really good at playing smug, isn't she?

[Morrigan2575]

I thought that was obvious even without reading the script.

 

I think it was more the combination of reading the script and within 1-2 weeks coming across Batman Begins on TV.  Before that, it was oh yeah this does have a lot in common with Nolan's movies; afterwards it was, HOLY CRAP I'm surprised Nolan didn't sue...LOL 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[FurryFury]

The island thing and Laurel are probably the biggest rip-offs. And to this day, I have no idea why they've decided to copy Rachel Dawes, of all things. Wasn't it obvious she sucked? Did anyone really like her? I guess it's Guggenheim and his lawyer fetish.

[Lord Kira]

The backlash against Laurel is only going to get worse. People freaked out at Laurel's placement on a poster. I can't wait to see the giant freak out when she becomes the new Canary. I'm sure the EP's won't know what hit them. They probably think they already fixed the Laurel problem.

 

The press release for the premiere says Laurel joins Oliver's inner circle. Because that's what most fans want. This couldn't possibly backfire. Not at all.

 

At what point do they cut their losses and just drop the Laurel character? Or do you think they will keep forcing her down our throats regardless of her reception by the fans?

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lord Kira

[FurryFury]

The press release for the premiere says Laurel joins Oliver's inner circle. Because that's what most fans want. This couldn't possibly backfire. Not at all.

 

To be fair, they shouldn't only do what the fans want (which usually translates into "what vocal fans want"), otherwise the show would be 80% Olicity make-outs, 15% Team Arrow decimating all bad guys around and 5% Sara/Nyssa/etc. cameos. Oh, and Barrowman would eyesex everyone around him... wait, he already does that. Nevermind.

 

Anyway, I do believe fan reaction should be a factor, but if the author has a really strong vision they shouldn't let it dictate their story. The problem is, I don't believe they have any kind of vision for Laurel.

[Lord Kira]

To be fair, they shouldn't only do what the fans want (which usually translates into "what vocal fans want"), otherwise the show would be 80% Olicity make-outs, 15% Team Arrow decimating all bad guys around and 5% Sara/Nyssa/etc. cameos. Oh, and Barrowman would eyesex everyone around him... wait, he already does that. Nevermind.

 

Anyway, I do believe fan reaction should be a factor, but if the author has a really strong vision they shouldn't let it dictate their story. The problem is, I don't believe they have any kind of vision for Laurel.

 

The thing is, its not just the regular fans that dislike Laurel. Its the media who review this show, it's the official Tumblr account for the show, etc. If even the people who run the official Tumblr for the show can't stand her, you'd think the EP's would be able to take a hint.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lord Kira

[FurryFury]

I've heard she has a few very vocal fans, so who knows, maybe they just think she's a "love her or hate her" character?

[Lord Kira]

To be honest, those fans usually come across to me as more of KC fans then Laurel fans. I never hear anyone say what they like about Laurel as a character, just that KC is a great actress and does a terrific job, etc.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lord Kira

[Velocity23]

You forgot to say that they say SA is a bad actor. 

[blixie]

SA was a bad actor for most of Season 1. He's improved, but I still don't think he's great. I just think his chemistry with Emily and DR elevates his work.

 

Topic: Laurel Lance, a disaster of a character those to blame in order 1. Writers 2. Producers 3. Directors, .......4. KC.

[Lord Kira]

@Velocity23 I didn't want to generalize like that and come across as bashing Laurel fans.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lord Kira

[Velocity23]

I know its just how they see it. They put KC on a pedistal. And everybody else is a bad actor. 

[Morrigan2575]

Topic: Laurel Lance, a disaster of a character those to blame in order 1. Writers 2. Producers 3. Directors, .......4. KC.

 

 

1. Writers 2. Producers 3. Directors 4. Other Actors 5. Stunt Peeps 6. Camera Operator 7. Production Assistant 8. Set Designer 9. Makeup 10. Audio Engineer.

 

See KC isn't even in the Top 10 of people responsible for Laurel being a sucky character it's not her fault, she's fantastic actress...she was great as Ruby.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

SA was a bad actor for most of Season 1. He's improved, but I still don't think he's great. I just think his chemistry with Emily and DR elevates his work.

Topic: Laurel Lance, a disaster of a character those to blame in order 1. Writers 2. Producers 3. Directors, .......4. KC.

This is mileage varies territory. I do not agree he was a bad actor. He was playing a messed up PTSD ridden character. KC IMO never played anything with consistency. Part of it was writing but IMO she never gave Laurel any nuance to make Laurel relatable or believable.

 

To me she never gave Laurel anything that makea Laurel, Laurel. That is, with Ollie SA gave him screwed up, hard, but putting on a face for everyone else ans was lying. But I got what Amell was doing after a couple of episodes. KC has done little than read lines and hit marks.  Yes I know she worked with Blackthorne and Lotz on the Lance family backstory but I would like to have seen that Cassidy was doing that on her own with Laurel from the get go.  I would have appreciated her putting the work in on Laurel when Laurel wasn't being groomed for superhero/supervillain territory. So now I don't care about her talking about much work she's putting into it now.

 

That said, if they do the Laurel stealing Sara's life angle for becoming BC I would totally be fine with that, because then all the odd and IMO poor acting choices by KC that seemed to belie Laurel being compassionate and kind and showing admiration would make sense and I would accept that retcon.

Edited September 19, 2014 by catrox14

[NumberCruncher]

To be fair, they shouldn't only do what the fans want (which usually translates into "what vocal fans want"), otherwise the show would be 80% Olicity make-outs, 15% Team Arrow decimating all bad guys around and 5% Sara/Nyssa/etc. cameos. Oh, and Barrowman would eyesex everyone around him... wait, he already does that. Nevermind.

Anyway, I do believe fan reaction should be a factor, but if the author has a really strong vision they shouldn't let it dictate their story. The problem is, I don't believe they have any kind of vision for Laurel.

I generally agree with this--the showrunners are responsible for writing the show, not the fans. That being said, I think show producers should know when to adjust their plans when it's warranted. For example, I give Berlanti & co. major kudos for recognizing the lightning in a bottle they had with EBR/Felicity and incorporating her into the storyline. On the other hand, I think they also sometimes get tunnel vision trying to force certain characters/storylines whom they love but that clearly aren't working with the audience (e.g. Laurel's addictions). I honestly don't think Arrow's audience wants to see 80% Olicity makeout scenes but they do want to see characters they like in well-written storylines. If the producers are shoving the opposite down their throats then of course they should expect some backlash. That doesn't mean they have to write what the fans demand from a creative standpoint, but at some point, they have to also be mindful of the impact those decisions have on viewership, ratings, etc. from a business standpoint. With Laurel and was has happened over the past 2 seasons, I think they have let their love of the character (or more specifically her future trajectory as BC) blind them to what's good for the show as a whole.

[Sakura12]

You know what might Laurel a tiny bit more enjoyable in season 3, if they continue with the villains randomly showing up at Laurel's door to tell her the secrets everyone's been keeping from her. 

[KenyaJ]

Huh, how much does a non-profit law firm pay? Considering the fact that Laurel's never really won a case on the show, she probably didn't get paid a lot. It's something I never really understood because if Laurel worked for a non-profit and needed to pay off student loans, wouldn't she still be in debt because of student loans? All I know is, is that Law School is super super expensive. 

 

Next to nothing, especially right out of law school. She'd be making around $40-45K, if that. (And I realize that's not nothing, but compared to a first year associate at a mid- to large-sized firm, it's a pittance.)  She wouldn't be making too much more than that at the DA's office, BTW, especially as a young attorney with less than 5 years of practice experience.

 

That's why if the speculated "Laurel helps Oliver buy back Verdant" storyline happens, I'm going to cry extreme bullshit.

[Morrigan2575]

How are you going to feel about

Laurel now being the DA as a lawyer with less than 5 years experience

?  LOL

[willpwr]

I've never seen Supernatural, been waiting for it to end so I can binge watch it, was she really that good as Ruby? TBH I'm not too familiar with KC's work which I find is normally better for me when I start watching a show because I don't have any preconceived notion about the actor or any expectations so it's usually easier for me to see them as the character rather than the actor. I don't know what went wrong with Laurel, though because all I see is KC and I'm usually pretty good at getting caught up in a fantasy world. I can't even blame the interviews, I looked them up afterward to try to make sense of what was going on in the screen and all it confirmed for me was that that's pretty much how KC is in interviews.

[Chaser]

Didn't they make Laurel a lawyer because one of the EPs was one? The legal portions of the show are complete fantasy.  After moving to the DA's office she would just be one of many attorneys. Her first year there would have been spent on lower level felonies, not lead on multiples homicides . She wouldn't even be an Assistant DA.

 

KC was good at Ruby. Its been awhile since I've seen the role, but I don't remember it being a particularly challenging role. Just a lot of snarky one liners. Action scenes were a little awkward though.