Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[strikera0]

I just found this article about the most and least liked fall TV actresses. I was a bit surprised to read that Katie Cassidy was tied with Amy Poehler and Patricia Heaton in 26th place, ahead of actresses like Mindy Kalling, Allison Janney, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Connie Britton, Julianna Marguiles and Rachel Bilson. Nina Dobrev polled slightly better in 21st place with a Q score of 19.

[Chaser]

I trust anything that puts her above Mindy Kaling

[ban1o]

I trust anything that puts her above Mindy Kaling

You don't like Mindy Kaling? 

[Chaser]

LOL I meant to put a DON'T in there…"I don't trust anything that puts her above Mindy Kaling"

 

I adore Mindy Kaling

Edited September 18, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[wonderwall]

I don't trust a list (that's supposed to list the most liked actresses) where I don't even know 3 of the women in the top 5. Nor do I trust a list which puts KC on the same level as my beloved Amy Poehler (who is a lot more awesome okay)...

 

I also think that list is childish and has no basis. So.... 

[blixie]

Q is more about recognizability than likability, though they are obviously correlated. Four of the top five are on very highly rated procedural shows that I avoid like the plague. And as for Mindy she's not white, not thin, and plays an abrasive character on a very low rated sitcom. Whatever positive Q she has, is left over from being Kelly on The Office.

 

I love Katie Cassidy so I'm not surprised she has a relatively high Q, she's a Cassidy she'd have recognition if all she did was DJ in the French Riviera, and she's been on a lot of buzzy shows in the key demos: SPN, GG, Melrose, Harpers Island, and now Arrow. My positive feelings for KC far outweigh the couple of times I've disliked her: on SPN and Arrow, and on Arrow I mostly blame the writers not her acting. I loved Ella Sims on the short lived Melrose just that much.

 

Also Q's ratings are extremely valued and respected data points, in terms of making money both for the actors and the studios/networks who employ them.

[wingster55]

Nor do I trust a list which puts KC on the same level as my beloved Amy Poehler (who is a lot more awesome okay).

 

Yea really..what kind of list doesn't have Amy Poehler as the most likable? (Followed by Rachel Bilson imo)

[wonderwall]

I MEAN IT'S AMY POEHLER!!!!

 

She's a queen dammit! :p And she hosted the Golden Globes with best friend Tina Fey! That itself is like >>>>>>>>>>> any crappy CW show

[statsgirl]

That's only the positive Q scores, which is how much the respondent likes the actress. There's also a negative Q score, which is how much the actress is disliked.

 

It's also a strange list of actresses that they scored.  I wonder what EBR would have scored if they had put her name in.  It's a strange way they picked actresses, two actresses from Criminal Minds but only Jennifer Morrison from OUaT (where are Lana Parilla and Ginnifer Goodwin?), only Ellen Pompeo from Grey's Anatomy (Sandro Oh anyone?) and CCH Pounder, Debra Messing Tea Leoni and Katherine Heigl from shows that haven't even aired yet, in spite of saying that ratings from older than 2012 don't count.

[Starfish35]

Lana Parilla was on the list, tied at 21 with Nina Dobrev. They said some actresses didn't have Q scores, so they couldn't include them.

Julianna Margulies being so low really surprised me.

Sometimes I wish Katie Cassidy had done something else that I was even remotely interested in that I could watch to get a sense of how she's been on other shows. But horror and teen soaps are just not my genres.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[foreverevolving]

I just found this article about the most and least liked fall TV actresses. I was a bit surprised to read that Katie Cassidy was tied with Amy Poehler and Patricia Heaton in 26th place, ahead of actresses like Mindy Kalling, Allison Janney, Jennifer Love Hewitt, Connie Britton, Julianna Marguiles and Rachel Bilson. Nina Dobrev polled slightly better in 21st place with a Q score of 19.

There's something very wrong in this world (or that poll) if someone like KC, and some of the other names on the list, manages to get a higher spot than Julianna Margulies. seriously how is Margulies not in the top 10?! (and this is coming from someone who actually dislikes The Good Wife, but Margulies is a top notch actress). seriously Any actress that at one point was offered enough money that would have made her the highest rated actress on TV and walked away from it out of respect to her character and the fans deserve a top 5.

 

on another note, I checked the guys poll Stephen is tied at 45 with Will Estes (from Blue Bloods) and Hugh Dancy (from Hannibal). kind of impressed he outwon Tim Allen and that doc guy from Grey (whose appeal i still fail to see).

Edited September 18, 2014 by foreverevolving

[wonderwall]

There's something very wrong in this world (or that poll) if someone like KC, and some of the other names on the list, manages to get a higher spot than Julianna Margulies. seriously how is Margulies not in the top 10?! (and this is coming from someone who actually dislikes The Good Wife, but Margulies is a top notch actress)

Did you just... I'm sorry. We cannot be friends because you don't like The Good Wife :p No but seriously, Julianna is a queen just like Amy. She's friggin' been on ER, made out with George Clooney, and is in an incredibly successful show (which she recently got an Emmy for btw)... I honestly don't believe KC is as popular or well-known as her or Amy.

 

I'm getting too worked up over this :p I'm gonna go eat some ice cream and cool down (heh).

Edited September 18, 2014 by wonderwall

[FurryFury]

Wow, I didn't expect KC to score so high. But their selection is, like, 1800 respondents. Not that big. 

[foreverevolving]

Did you just... I'm sorry. We cannot be friends because you don't like The Good Wife :p No but seriously, Julianna is a queen just like Amy. She's friggin' been on ER, made out with George Clooney, and is in an incredibly successful show (which she recently got an Emmy for btw)... I honestly don't believe KC is as popular or well-known as her or Amy.

 

I'm getting too worked up over this :p I'm gonna go eat some ice cream and cool down (heh).

I tried, I really did. I actually feel TGW is a step down for Margulies. than again, nothing can be lower than that Ghost Ship movie she did in the early 2000's with her than fiancé.

but seriously, i gave it a shot when it first came out. it didn't quite hit with me. but i was in my early 20's than so maybe that's why.

 

Margulies has been nominated and won a shit load of awards for different projects (ER included of course!). IIRC she has the most nominations and wins of any actress on the SAG awards, she has like a total of 4 GG for different projects (at least 2 for TGW). and of course she previously won an Emmy for ER too.

she is in all honesty the reigning queen of TV (i can admit that, even if TGW is not my cup of tea), she's so awesome i can't even refer to her by her given name. besides It's like with Clooney, You say "Margulies" and almost anyone between the ages of 25 to 60 knows who you are referring to.

Edited September 18, 2014 by foreverevolving

[Starfish35]

Oh wow. Sean Murray is higher than Mark Harmon? What? I guess I don't understand this Q score thing at all.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

Here's how the Q Scores marketing company arrives at its results for its clients, which include television networks, among others: President Henry Schafer and his team provide a celebrity's name and a brief description to more than 1,800 study participants

With the tiny sample size, and the fact that some of the data is more than 2 years old. this isn't an accurate representation of popularity or name-recognition or whatever.

 

Anyways we've gotten off topic.

 

How about that Laurel, eh? :p

 

I hope she dies or goes to a land far, far away in season 3. Sorry, but I'm not sorry.

Edited September 18, 2014 by wonderwall

[Lord Kira]

If the writers wanted Laurel to be the main female lead, they shouldn't have shoved her in the background from season 1's mid-season to season 2's mid-season. Forcing her back into a lead role after all of that and given back lead screentime is problematic because she has no place in the show anymore. Felicity took over the role of Oliver's love interest, Sara has more than claimed the role of Canary, Diggle and Felicity are the trusted confidants, Lance is the law enforcement contact, etc. Laurel doesn't add anything to the show, which is proven by the fact that you can skip 95 percent of her scenes and not miss anything important. The show has moved on without her. The writers just refuse to accept it.

 

I'm curious, after season 1 the writers admitted they handled Laurel poorly and acknowledged that she wasn't well-received by the fans; have they said anything similar since season 2 ended?

Edited September 18, 2014 by Lord Kira

[SleepDeprived]

You know what I find funny? For someone who is supposed to be the female lead character (and, apparently, important enough to feature more prominently than my beloved Diggle in that underwhelming S3 poster), I often hear and see people mispronouncing/misspelling Laurel's name. My Dad, who watches the show more than I do (rewatches reruns and certain scenes over and over), almost always calls her "Laura," no matter how many times I've corrected him. My sister has referred to her as "Lauren" more than once. A buddy I had convinced to watch the show texted and wrote "Loral" in his rants. And there are a few other variations of Laurel's name being misspelled all over the interwebs. Even coming from her fans.

 

And I know it's really shallow/petty of me but it amuses me whenever people can't get her name right.

[fantique]

Yet she went on the boat. Ok

 

It's possible Laurel did actually know he was the hood..hence her lack of surprise imo when Slade told her. 

Sorry but I am pretty sure her eye fluttering and twitching eye fit was meant to be all like "Oh.Em.Gee... I see it now! It was staring me in the face this whole time".

 

I think that the root of the problem is 2-fold.

1) Laurel lance is more of a concept than a "real person" like character. They just throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. So... inconsistency.

2) It seems KC is more into what she wants than she is into the show. At least in season 1 her attire seemed character centred but in season 2... Weird. Her interviews show that she ignores parts of the show that don't fit into what she envisions for her character and her acting instincts just seem to be off here. She just does not seem to be connecting with the show... She should just do her best, go out with a bang and cut her losses.

 

I hope they make her more bearable for the majority of the viewers and then have her tragic loss affect the other characters. While I think they can make her ok, I don't think I will ever be able to like her. Anything that would erase her behaviour from the past 2 seasons would be a retcon and make me lose any respect for the writers and the show.

 

I am just puzzled by those writers. I mean they knew something was wrong after season 1. It's like the character just doesn't inspire them and every time they bring her to the A-plot, it's character assassination all around... Just why. I know it's called Show Business but it's still a creativity based industry and half-arsing it just makes it worse and convoluted. It feels like they wrote themselves into a corner when it comes to Laurel

Edited September 19, 2014 by fantique

[FurryFury]

I actually could tolerate Laurel until about the middle of season 2, after which she started to really piss me off. But even then, I could probably still watch, albeit grudgingly, if the finale didn't make it 100% clearthey are going to throw Sara - who, by then, has become my favorite character - under the bus to prop Laurel. You'd think they'll understand she doesn't work and prepare to write her off, but nope. Whatever's going on in these writers' heads re: Laurel, I want no part of that.

Edited September 18, 2014 by FurryFury

[Guest]

So, since I joined this forum I've been slowly making my way through all the threads from the beginning and it's actually really interesting to go back and see what everyone hoped for with Laurel. There's talk of making her Manhunter and keeping Sara as BC or getting rid of her altogether but knowing that's not possible, what would make Laurel redeemable?

 

I mean, I'm not Laurel's biggest fan. I question her actions all the time and I don't sympathize with her when I probably should and I HATE the O/L thing with the passion of a thousand suns. But I really do want to enjoy her scenes because I want to enjoy all parts of the show. So I was wondering what would improve her? What would make her more likeable?

 

Because a lot of people don't want her with Oliver (myself included) which takes away the love interest side of her character. A lot of people don't want her to be BC because a) Sara is already a good Canary and b) the motivation just isn't there. So what does that leave her with? I'm asking a legitimate question here because I honestly don't know how they're going to do it. Thoughts?

[Morrigan2575]

Speaking only for myself and just what would work for me. Assuming I have no choice and have to live with her...

Sara as official/permenant BC

Laurel/Oliver deader than dead ship wise

Laurel goes back to her role in 201-209, barely any screentime limited to a support role as far as the plot goes. She shows up, imparts some knowledge about the Case/Villain of the week and that's about it.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

I think the writers did the opposite of what they should have with Laurel. Like Lord Kira said: they should't have pushed her into the background so much. Now they are having trouble bringing her into the narrative. She became irrelevant to the show; we have Det. Lance for the law (even more now that he is a Captain), Sara as the Black Canary and Felicity as the romantic lead (her worth is more then that but thats not the point).

[Guest]

Speaking only for myself and just what would work for me. Assuming I have no choice and have to live with her...

Sara as official/permenant BC

Laurel/Oliver deader than dead ship wise

Laurel goes back to her role in 201-209, barely any screentime limited to a support role as far as the plot goes. She shows up, imparts some knowledge about the Case/Villain of the week and that's about it.

 

I agree with your thoughts. Sara is the only BC in my eyes because she has the history and motivation for it. She has the years of training. And I hate O/L, as I said before. But what I'm trying to say is that, however much we want it, Laurel isn't going to be given less screen time now. By the sounds of it, she's getting more. She's not going anywhere and she's going to be more involved with Oliver and Team Arrow so I guess, how can they make that more palatable? 

 

I think the writers did the opposite of what they should have with Laurel. Like Lord Kira said: they should't have pushed her into the background so much. Now they are having trouble bringing her into the narrative. She became irrelevant to the show; we have Det. Lance for the law (even more now that he is a Captain), Sara as the Black Canary and Felicity as the romantic lead (her worth is more then that but thats not the point).

 

I agree. I mean, I enjoyed it when she wasn't around but that's not really the point! She has no place on the show now but they are determined to give her a place whether we like it or not. 

[Matt K]

What was the other 30%? Just curious.

The rest had to do with shoehorning in DC characters/easter eggs that took me out of the episode, the breakneck pace and lack of characterization that dominated the season, the addition of powers to Arrow's Universe and the fridging of awesome female characters (Moira's death was my last straw along with the hint that Laurel would become BC).  

 

Really though Laurel is the main problem since she's just a terrible character (and I think KC is a pretty awful actress here and I put some of the blame on her especially since we've seen that the writers are receptive to the actor's input and if she had any notion of character we might have seen some of the issues fixed, plus she had no chemistry with any of the other actors except maybe Paul B).  Add in the threat of Laurel becoming BC thus the probable death of Sara and the fact that any more screen time would make episodes worse and she is kind of the main problem and why I gave up on the show.

[SonofaBiscuit]



Because a lot of people don't want her with Oliver (myself included) which takes away the love interest side of her character. A lot of people don't want her to be BC because a) Sara is already a good Canary and b) the motivation just isn't there. So what does that leave her with? I'm asking a legitimate here because I honestly don't know how they're going to do it. Thoughts?

 

This is one of my issues with Laurel...she doesn't offer anything unique to the narrative.  All of the roles that she was meant to inhabit are currently occupied by other people: Felicity as love interest, Sara as BC, and Quentin as a connection to the law.  To find something useful for Laurel to do, I feel like the writers are probably going to have to take these roles from others and hand them to Laurel, and that's not something that I want to see.  What exactly does Laurel offer that isn't already covered by one of the other characters on the show? 

 

So yeah, basically I think that we throw Laurel into the background and have her show up on a limited basis.  But even that pisses me off because I think about how much money the show is wasting by keeping KC on there when Laurel really serves no unique purpose.  If we lost Laurel, I feel like her parts of the story could be easily handed to other characters without the show missing a beat. 

[looptab]

I agree,  I think the consequence of  her less screen time last year  will be people rejecting her increasing presence. People will miss good ol' times! But, sadly, I think they're serious about her becoming BC. If I'm not wrong AK said something about the presence of a precursor of a character being a tradition of the show (as in the first Hood being Yao Fe, the first Deathstroke being that guy machete-happy). So they may think it'll be cool. My only hope is that if she has to become BC, it will be only in the series finale. (So we're not going to sit through that.)

Edited September 18, 2014 by looptab

[statsgirl]

Matt K, by the end of s2 I was ready to give up on Arrow, pretty much for those reasons you gave.  I gave it the last three episodes and that was going to be it.  Fortunately, they turned out to be some of the best episodes of the season.  (The fact that Laurel was sidelined and then damsel-ed helped.)  So give those episodes a look if you can.

 

 

There's something very wrong in this world (or that poll) if someone like KC, and some of the other names on the list, manages to get a higher spot than Julianna Margulies. 

 

I think there's a lot wrong with that poll, starting with how is KC even on it?  She's done nothing other than CW show (except for the blink-and-you-miss-it Harper's Island and a movie that went straight to DVD).    If you don't watch CW shows (and many TV viewers don't), you wouldn't even know who she is.   Pauley Perrette and Cote de Pablo have been #1 and 2 on the Q ratings for years, but Cote isn't even on that list.  And you could sell a TV show just because Alison Janney or Amy Poehler is attached to the project; you couldn't do that with Katie Cassidy.

If the writers wanted Laurel to be the main female lead, they shouldn't have shoved her in the background from season 1's mid-season to season 2's mid-season.

I really think they had no choice.  The character was turning people off the show, at best she was using up time that could have been given to more popular characters, and the point of making a TV show is to please the viewers so that they will tune in.  That's possibly why they made Sara the Canary rather than Ravenger, because after spending time with Ivo and then the LoA, Ravenger would have made more sense..

 

The question is, why are they seemingly so obsessed with making Laurel a main part of the show?  As shown by the episodes in which she didn't appear last year or only appeared in a flashback, the show functions better without her.

Edited September 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[Guest]

This is one of my issues with Laurel...she doesn't offer anything unique to the narrative.  All of the roles that she was meant to inhabit are currently occupied by other people: Felicity as love interest, Sara as BC, and Quentin as a connection to the law.  To find something useful for Laurel to do, I feel like the writers are probably going to have to take these roles from others and hand them to Laurel, and that's not something that I want to see.  What exactly does Laurel offer that isn't already covered by one of the other characters on the show? 

 

So yeah, basically I think that we throw Laurel into the background and have her show up on a limited basis.  But even that pisses me off because I think about how much money the show is wasting by keeping KC on there when Laurel really serves no unique purpose.  If we lost Laurel, I feel like her parts of the story could be easily handed to other characters without the show missing a beat. 

 

I agree, which is why I'm kinda baffled by their determination to force her where she doesn't go, where she doesn't need to go. I mean, you could easily remove most of her scenes from s2 and the story wouldn't change. I really feel like they've written themselves into a corner with Laurel and I don't see how they're going to get out of it without destroying other characters in the process. Like, I didn't feel this way in s2 but now I'm pretty much waiting for Sara to die or go evil or something because how else will she transition to BC? Why, because she felt like it? Eh. It's going to be so tricky.

 

I agree,  I think the consequence of  her less screen time last year  will be people rejecting her increasing presence. People will miss good ol' times! But, sadly, I think they're serious about her becoming BC. If I'm not wronk AK said something about the presence of a precursor of a character being a tradition of the show (as in the first Hood being Yao Fe, the first Deathstroke being that guy machete-happy). So they may think it'll be cool. My only hope is that if she has to become BC, it will be only in the series finale. (So we're not going to sit through that.)

 

I know. Laurel not becoming BC isn't even an option. I think that was always their plan and they're going ahead with it even more so now that she's not the love interest. I just don't see how they're going to do it. And I agree. I'll stomach her being BC if we see her properly training for it and it happens in the season finale. Because if she suddenly starts wearing fishnets after a couple of episodes of training I will rage. This seriously has to be more than Roy training with his bow and arrow and being unconscious for a few episodes and then somehow being proficient, which still annoys me. But then, at the same time, I don't want more Laurel scenes. Gah! I'm so conflicted.

 

The question is, why are they seemingly so obsessed with making Laurel a main part of the show?  As shown by the episodes in which she didn't appear last year or only appeared in a flashback, the show functions better without her.

 

Because comics? lol I have no idea. I really don't get it.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Guest

[Chaser]

I read somewhere that the EPs had a 5 season plan for the show (of course so did SPN and they are the energizer bunnies) and those 5 years was supposed to be Laurel's journey to becoming Black Canary coinciding with The Hood becoming Green Arrow. I don't how reliable that theory is but it kinda makes sense that that was their original plan, but that plan has some problems. The first one being it sets up Black Canary as a side kick to Green Arrow (Laurel/BC is never going to be able to take on Oliver). Second, delays the evolution to the point where logically doesn't make any sense (age). 

Edited September 18, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[blixie]

 

I was wondering what would improve her? What would make her more likeable?

 

For me, it's never been a question of what, mostly because I firmly don't GAF about plot, but a question of *how* they haven't told me the story of Laurel. For me it's not a question of how much screen time she gets, it's how quality that screen time is. Laurel is given zero point of view. What I need is that girl to get REAL, I need to see her *supporting* Team Arrow w/o needing to assert/equate herself as a partner or member of Team Arrow. I need to see her calling Ollie out on the fact that their relationship before the island was a joke, aka two youngish kids who spent more time lying to themselves than being honest with each other, and that now that everything is out in the open, they can be real friends again for the first time. I need to see the Team choosing to call on her, not her insisting on "helping" them out. I need to see her pursuing her own shit: be it MMA fighting, committed lawyering, or a new love interest that has zero to do with Oliver Queen.

 

I basically need her to be bumped to recurring/supporting, building up or repairing her for at no  less than two full years, then maybe if it is going well, if they've shown us her training for YEARS on her own time, and then Sara dies, and maybe then I could buy her as BC. Depending on how things play out with Olicity, maybe Laurel and Oliver and the writers  have finally earned the story of how Laurel/Oliver know each other, respect each other, admire each other, trust each other, and love each other. That is an incredibly tall and unlikely order though, so I'd mostly prefer for her to become White Canary and leave the canvas.

[Chaser]

Laurel is so far behind the others in terms of characterzation she would need her own show to get there. I agree though, she needs to be in a supporting role. Helping the Team and working on her own time to better herself; sprinkle it throughout the season.

 

If Laurel and Oliver happen, I'm punching my ticket. No woman who is supposed to be strong and independent and in charge would ever go back to such a toxic relationship. I get that Oliver is a completely different person and so is Laurel (I guess), but that is a huge step backwards. Friends okay sure, but romance? Nope. I can't watch it.

[Guest]

What I need is that girl to get REAL, I need to see her *supporting* Team Arrow w/o needing to assert/equate herself as a partner or member of Team Arrow. I need to see her calling Ollie out on the fact that their relationship before the island was a joke, aka two youngish kids who spent more time lying to themselves than being honest with each other, and that now that everything is out in the open, they can be real friends again for the first time. I need to see the Team choosing to call on her, not her insisting on "helping" them out. I need to see her pursuing her own shit: be it MMA fighting, committed lawyering, or a new love interest that has zero to do with Oliver Queen.

 

I basically need her to be bumped to recurring/supporting, building up or repairing her for at no  less than two full years, then maybe if it is going well, if they've shown us her training for YEARS on her own time, and then Sara dies, and maybe then I could buy her as BC. Depending on how things play out with Olicity, maybe Laurel and Oliver and the writers  have finally earned the story of how Laurel/Oliver know each other, respect each other, admire each other, trust each other, and love each other. That is an incredibly tall and unlikely order though, so I'd mostly prefer for her to become White Canary and leave the canvas.

 

These are all really good ideas. I actually don't mind her supporting Team Arrow but I begrudge the idea that she's earned her place there just because she knows Oliver's secret now. I think it's fair that she would help him out in a lawyer type capacity and feed info back and forth but as a fully fledged member? Not yet. They need to build up to it first. Slowly slowly.

 

The only thing I don't buy is L/O ever being in a place where they could love each other again. For me, personally, their history is too toxic and gross (sister swapping is a big NO ew ew ew) and that's not even considering O/F who I have grown to love so so much. No, O/L should be done now. I actually think it's an important part of their character growth to learn that they shouldn't be together but I guess that's for another time and another thread!

[blixie]

 

he only thing I don't buy is L/O ever being in a place where they could love each other again.

 

Ha, I'm not suggesting we would have to watch that, I only want her as BC if it's the finis image, and just a general insinuation that she and Oliver will finally have that OTP they pretended they had as kids. I think Sara being for real dead would help make L/O forging a relationship in some future I don't have to watch much more believable and acceptable. To me, but again I really don't think the writers are capable of what it's going to take, so I'd prefer she go evil, or get lost, or go evil and get lost.

[Password]

Before Olicity was hyped up I thought that was the route they would go I.e. now the secrets are out, Oliver and Laurel can be true to each other and slowly rebuild their relationship. And down the line revisit their romantic side. In my mind if Lauriver happens again, that's it for me. I know too much, I've seen too much to realistically think Laurel would even want anything to do with Oliver. And Sara and Oliver definitely put the kibosh on them ever making sense to me.

Right now, if Laurel goes on to be a vigilante, all I need is motivation. I can definitely see Thea doing it because I understand her motivation. I need for the writers to sell to me why someone whom is a stickler for the law, decides it's not good enough and then furthermore decides putting her life and body on the line for justice is.

[Guest]

Ha, I'm not suggesting we would have to watch that, I only want her as BC if it's the finis image, and just a general insinuation that she and Oliver will finally have that OTP they pretended they had as kids. I think Sara being for real dead would help make L/O forging a relationship in some future I don't have to watch much more believable and acceptable. To me, but again I really don't think the writers are capable of what it's going to take, so I'd prefer she go evil, or get lost, or go evil and get lost.

 

LOL I find even the insinuation of O/L being something in a future we won't have to watch really off-putting! Ugh. No! Sara being dead doesn't change that for me. I remember seeing some comments about how it would be ok for O/L to get together again a couple of years down the line, you know, after his thing with Sara is over and I'm like EW. He still slept with her sister. Time doesn't change that. But yeah. I like the idea of her going evil. I actually think that's what they should have done in s2. Really break her down, rock-bottom, tear everything apart. She had the motivation for it with Tommy's death and the guilt. Then they could have spent time building her back up. They went wrong on so many levels! They really half-assed it.

 

Before Olicity was hyped up I thought that was the route they would go I.e. now the secrets are out, Oliver and Laurel can be true to each other and slowly rebuild their relationship. And down the line revisit their romantic side. In my mind if Lauriver happens again, that's it for me. I know too much, I've seen too much to realistically think Laurel would even want anything to do with Oliver. And Sara and Oliver definitely put the kibosh on them ever making sense to me.

Right now, if Laurel goes on to be a vigilante, all I need is motivation. I can definitely see Thea doing it because I understand her motivation. I need for the writers to sell to me why someone whom is a stickler for the law, decides it's not good enough and then furthermore decides putting her life and body on the line for justice is.

 

Agreed. Even before I started to like Olicity (that came later for me) I assumed they'd go back to Lauriver eventually but I HATED the idea. I find it seriously off-putting. That's multiplied now that Oliver is clearly in love with Felicity. I just don't see a way back there. Not a believable one anyway. 

 

And yes, that's what I'm looking for too. Motivation. If they get that right then I might be able to buy her becoming BC. It all depends on that though and I'm not convinced the writers have it in them. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt though, for now.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Guest

[scarynikki12]

the presence of a precursor of a character being a tradition of the show (as in the first Hood being Yao Fe, the first Deathstroke being that guy machete-happy

 

What confuses me about this is that Laurel doesn't fit this specific narrative.  A precursor for Oliver with Yao Fe and Slade with his psycho ex-partner made sense, as neither Arrow or Deathstroke showed up the second the predecessor fell.  Oliver continued to learn and train before taking on the Arrow mantle and Slade was already trained and became Deathstroke specifically after he lost his mind and was mirakurued (sp?).  Laurel becoming the Canary at this point in the series wouldn't work because she has no training.  Sara, like Oliver and Slade, spent years training before she returned to Starling City as a vigilante.  If the show does not intend to make Laurel the Canary this year, but intends to start showing her hardcore training with the intention of her becoming the Canary in, say, season 6, then that wouldn't work for me either because we already have Sara and Laurel would still bring nothing to Team Arrow.  Plus, the Black Canary is a truly great character all on her own and doesn't need to be relegated to Green Arrow's sidekick/training partner/trainee.  She's better than that. 

 

The way the show could improve Laurel is to go back to basics and focus on her being a lawyer.  Let her actually try and win cases as a DA, or go back to litigation and fighting for the little guy, but have her make an actual difference in the courtroom while Oliver is going after those who manipulate the system to become untouchable.  If they want her interacting with the other characters regularly, then have her be the inside woman in the DA's office, learning which lawyers, judges and politicians are corrupt and need reminders from the Arrow to do their jobs.  She would still be limited to Oliver, her dad, Sara, and maybe Diggle (in his capacity as Oliver's "bodyguard"), but there's no reason those interactions wouldn't count.  She wouldn't need to interact with Felicity, Roy, or Thea, and that's just fine.

[KirkB]

A character needs to have a reason to exist. Now, that reason might not be anything more complex than comic relief. They pop in, say or do something stupid to get a laugh out of the audience, and pop out again. Others are glorified set dressing, there mainly to be background filler or to give information/advice/etc that is necessary but doesn't fit coming from one of the main characters. Then you have the supporting characters, family members and love interests, who exist to fill out the main character's world but aren't generally involved in the episode to episode plots. Finally there are main characters, heroes and villains, the star or stars who get the bulk of the plots and screen time. For all but the last category, you can go episodes or even seasons without seeing them and it will have little or no effect on the overall narrative. In the case of Arrow, Oliver is the star. THE central character. You couldn't reasonably do any episode without him. Felicity, Diggle, Roy and Quentin are main characters. It would be odd and disappointing to go more than an episode without seeing them, and if they were absent there is almost always an explanation given even if in passing. Thea, Malcolm, Ray, Sara, these will probably be major supporting characters. They may not be in every episode and you might or might not notice their absence. So what about Laurel? She SHOULD be in the same category as Diggle, Felicity, Roy and Quentin. Love interest or not she is supposed to be a major presence in Oliver's life and on the show. Yet her absence in several episodes had, IMO, little effect on the narrative, and in some people's eyes made those episodes better. This is the mark of a weak character. The solution to such a problem is NOT to put her in more episodes, it is to figure out what people don't like about her in the first place and fix it. This is mostly KC's acting, which is difficult to correct, but the EP's aren't helping matters since they seem to be under the impression that the major problem fans have with Laurel is that she isn't wearing the fishnets.

Edited September 18, 2014 by KirkB

[NumberCruncher]

I read somewhere that the EPs had a 5 season plan for the show (of course so did SPN and they are the energizer bunnies) and those 5 years was supposed to be Laurel's journey to becoming Black Canary coinciding with The Hood becoming Green Arrow. I don't how reliable that theory is but it kinda makes sense that that was their original plan, but that plan has some problems. The first one being it sets up Black Canary as a side kick to Green Arrow (Laurel/BC is never going to be able to take on Oliver). Second, delays the evolution to the point where logically doesn't make any sense (age). 

 

I think that is exactly their plan--even through S2.  IIRC either KC or one of the EPs said something about the alcoholism/drug abuse storyline being Laurel's "island" which at the time seemed kind of stupid to me but if you look at it in the big picture, you can see how the EPs are figuratively putting Laurel through the wringer ala Island!Oliver on her journey to becoming BC.  The problem, however, is that what's being projected on screen with Laurel isn't coming across to the audience as all that dramatic and impactful, despite the EP claims to the contrary.  That's why all the interview grandstanding and "Emmy-worthy" proclamations just end up looking silly. 

 

I still think that S3 will take it even a step further by having Sara sacrifice her own life for Laurel's (this all tied to Ra's al Ghul, of course), thus compelling Laurel to avenge her as the eventual BC, but that's a discussion for the speculations thread.

[Chaser]

Question for anyone for checks out comic book forums: What is the general take on Laurel there? I get the impression from a few comments made that they like her and want her to be The Black Canary.

[pootlus]

A character needs to have a reason to exist.

I went back through my recollection of the show to find out if Laurel had any purpose for which any other character couldn't easily be substituted and I got one: by obsessing about their future together she incentivised Oliver to get on the boat.

Her other major role - causing Tommy to die - could have easily been accomplished by Tommy going into The Glades to save Thea instead.

As for what could save her, with KC's determination to not play her as a particularly nice person, the all-over-the-shop characterisation, the sloppy writing - all these things have to change.

But they've had two years to do this and haven't. Not sure that they actually understand what's wrong with the character let alone how to fix it.

[dtissagirl]

Question for anyone for checks out comic book forums: What is the general take on Laurel there? I get the impression from a few comments made that they like her and want her to be The Black Canary.

 

I always get a feeling that there's a divide between GA and BC fans going on here: Green Arrow fans want Laurel to be Black Canary because COMICS, and Black Canary fans are usually OK with Sara as BC because she fits all the relevant background and character traits.

 

I also see a divide in the 'shipping -- folks who are into Green Arrow tend to like Oliver/Dinah in the comics [the relationship makes Oliver look good after the womanizing ways are over]. However, folks who are more into BC/Birds of Prey tend to like Dinah better when she has nothing to do with Oliver. This lack of interest in Dinah/Oliver is even more prominent in folks whose quintessential Black Canary is the one written by Gail Simone.

[Chaser]

This is a very unevenly cut pie. 

[Morrigan2575]

Question for anyone for checks out comic book forums: What is the general take on Laurel there? I get the impression from a few comments made that they like her and want her to be The Black Canary.

Not the one's I've been to. Most can't stand her, quite a few are more than happy for Sara to remain Canary.

There are a few who say she's Dinah therefore she will be Black Canary but even those posters don't really seem to like her just say it has to be that way.

The most interesting poster I've encountered basically hated Laurel, said she was an insult to the Dinah character but NOT making Laurel BC would be an insult to Dinah's fans.

I would also agree with Dancingnancy I think Green Arrow fans are more accepting of Laurel than Dinah/BoP/BC fans.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Chaser]

Thanks for the feedback. I find it interesting what fans will put an emphasis on: the character or the name.

[ban1o]

On superhero hype and comicbookmovie (sites heavy populated by comic-book fans). Most are  indifferent to Laurel. They don`t lover her but they don't hate her as much as other other sites seem too. A lot of them aren`t huge fans of the Olicity craze though lol.  (Not that they don`t like Felicity, just the craze of Olicity), but don't really care for Oliver and Laurel either..  Most of them also seem to have a decent reaction to the poster  and actually liked which is something interesting to note. 

Edited September 18, 2014 by ban1o

[statsgirl]

Is there a sex difference between Green Arrow and Black Canary/BOP fans?  If the Green Arrow fans think of BC only as his sidekick because she's a woman, I can understand why they might be more accepting of Laurel.

I read somewhere that the EPs had a 5 season plan for the show (of course so did SPN and they are the energizer bunnies) and those 5 years was supposed to be Laurel's journey to becoming Black Canary coinciding with The Hood becoming Green Arrow. I don't how reliable that theory is but it kinda makes sense that that was their original plan, but that plan has some problems. The first one being it sets up Black Canary as a side kick to Green Arrow (Laurel/BC is never going to be able to take on Oliver). Second, delays the evolution to the point where logically doesn't make any sense (age). 

I think they may have had a five year plan for Laurel which probably eventually grew her into the Black Canary but their primary interest is Oliver.  He's the one ship-wrecked on the island, the one who had to go through hell to become the Vigilante.  Unless they chose to emphasize all that Laurel had gone through in those five years, she would always been ten steps behind.

 

And has been said before, if they wanted her to have a reason for becoming a vigilante herself, Tommy's death would have been perfect, or maybe her father's death at the hands of some crooks who got off.

 

I think that is exactly their plan--even through S2.  IIRC either KC or one of the EPs said something about the alcoholism/drug abuse storyline being Laurel's "island" which at the time seemed kind of stupid to me but if you look at it in the big picture, you can see how the EPs are figuratively putting Laurel through the wringer ala Island!Oliver on her journey to becoming BC.  The problem, however, is that what's being projected on screen with Laurel isn't coming across to the audience as all that dramatic and impactful, despite the EP claims to the contrary.  That's why all the interview grandstanding and "Emmy-worthy" proclamations just end up looking silly. 

I don't understand how Laurel's addiction storyline is anywhere near what Oliver and Sara went through to become heroes. For one thing, it's Laurel doing it to herself and fighting herself, unlike Oliver and Sara who had to survive what others did to them and learn to fight back.  For a second, it's Laurel helping herself, not helping the people who have been hurt by the 1%ers, or abused by  men.  But the big problem is that after all that, all the time spent on her in two seasons, she's basically learned nothing and grown not at all. She's right back in the pilot episode, wanting to help Oliver deal with his traumas and idolizing the Vigilante, and thinking of herself as a good-doer so she should be helping the Arrow.

 

i can more easily buy Thea's time with Malcolm as an island than Laurel's addiction.

[Sakura12]

On the Superhero forum I sometimes visit, they took a poll for "Sara or Laurel for Canary" it was Sara's 92 votes to Laurel's 28.  There are about 4 aggressive Laurel defenders who from what I've seen only use the "her name is Dinah Laurel Lance so she will be the BC" excuse.  While everyone else goes with they don't care what her name is, Laurel is nothing like Dinah from the comics. Sara isn't either but she's much closer than Laurel will ever be, plus she's (CL) a real life badass. 

[Chaser]

From what I'm hearing, Laurel is just as divisive on comic forums as she is on TV ones.

 

In terms of Laurel's island, was that an EP quote or a KC quote?

 

Laurel really did have the perfect motivation with Tommy's death. Missed opportunity there. Laurel is just going to Single White Female Sara. 

Edited September 19, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[Morrigan2575]

It's possible but I don't recall hearing he EPs say S2/alcoholism story was her island. I recall them saying they were going to put her through he ringer and that she would it rock bottom but that's about it.

I know KC has definitely said S2 was Laurel's island.

I know he EPs said from the pre S2 that S2 would be Roy's island and they've recently stated that

S3 is Thea's island but I don't think they've used that term in relation to Laurel