Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[slayer2]

I really don't see the problem with her character in season 1. Season 2, sure but that was partly because of the negative reaction to her in s1 which baffles me. Because she dared to be upset with Oliver? Because she dated Tommy? Because she didn't have humorous moments constantly? I just don't get it (and this is a problem that spans many shows and characters male and female for me).

Me either. I think KC is a great actress but there's only so much anyone can do with the dreck they were throwing at her season 2. Even still I don't find the character the most awful awful that ever awfuled. Child please, I come from the school of Smallville where Superman's an asshole by design, ain't nothing wrong with a Laurel.

I'm looking exceedingly forward to a more physical Laurel this season and since the show runners have acknowledge their foibles, I hope the give her better material to work with. Also nice to see her hair gone back to Ella Sims colour. Lovely.

Also I don't agree that she was responsible for getting Tommy killed. He sought her out to rescue her, she didn't entrap him or run away or some other nefarious thing. She was trapped in a building, he saved her, I've never heard of blame being thrown around in that situation before.

Edited July 4, 2014 by slayer2

[writersblock51]

 

He sought her out to rescue her, she didn't entrap him or run away or some other nefarious thing.

Tommy was only in that dangerous building because she was there.  And she was there for... collecting files?  Oliver, Tommy, Quentin, and Joanna all told her to not go there in the first place or to leave immediately. Plus, Moira's press conference was on TV and pretty much every person in the Glades was leaving asap.  But Laurel stayed in the office for files.

 

So yeah, I blame her for Tommy's death.  Ok, maybe only 90% - the rest of it falls squarely on Malcolm. 

 

But I suspect that even if there was a NATURAL earthquake going on, Laurel would have been stupid enough to be collecting files at the time.  And Tommy - and then Oliver - went to rescue her. 

[dtissagirl]

One of my friends was catching up with S1 earlier this year and her best comment was on the S1 finale: "Is CNRI in a time-space vortex where you go back to 1986 when you enter, and that's why Laurel's files are only on paper, instead of digitalized, and backed up to a secure server online?"

 

Marc Guggenheim is a lawyer in real life, why can't he write a fictional one, really.

[Sakura12]

One of my friends was catching up with S1 earlier this year and her best comment was on the S1 finale: "Is CNRI in a time-space vortex where you go back to 1986 when you enter, and that's why Laurel's files are only on paper, instead of digitalized, and backed up to a secure server online?"

 

Marc Guggenheim is a lawyer in real life, why can't he write a fictional one, really.

 

Well there's probably a reason he's not a lawyer anymore.

 

I partially blame Laurel because everyone and their mothers told Laurel not to go into the Glades and she goes into the Glades, not to rescue anyone or anything, to save a filing cabinet. So her stupidity is the reason Tommy went there to get her which resulted in his death. 

Edited July 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

I come from the school of Smallville where Superman's an asshole by design, ain't nothing wrong with a Laurel.

Well I watched the first six seasons of Smallville and there was no one on that show I hated as much as Laurel, not even Lana Lang. So this is definitely a "mileage may vary" situation.

She was trapped in a building, he saved her, I've never heard of blame being thrown around in that situation before.

If someone is warned not to run into a burning building, they do anyway, and someone dies saving them, then yes, I think there would be blame thrown around. Or rescue workers that die trying to rescue people that have gone into unsafe areas against warnings, or that have stayed in their homes and disregarded evacuation warnings? I can think of plenty of situations where blame could be thrown around.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

Well I watched the first six seasons of Smallville and there was no one on that show I hated as much as Laurel, not even Lana Lang. So this is definitely a "mileage may vary" situation.

 

Same with me. I never hated Lana as much as I hate Laurel, she's enough to make me stop watching the show after 2 seasons. I watched all 10 seasons of Smallville. I became indifferent to Lana and just fast forwarded her scenes, she also never replaced any of the characters I liked or is partially responsible for a death of characters I liked.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

Back when Sandy hit, both Governor Christie and Governor Cuomo made it a point to tell people that if you're told to evacuate, you better evacuate. If the Government has to send someone in to rescue you because you didn't listen, you could cost a first responder their life. They basically pointed out that you would be responsible for their life/death and you should think about others.

I have to say the Laurel/Tommy situation Is pretty much the same thing, IMO.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Happy Harpy]

After a couple of episodes, I rolled my eyes at Oliver and Laurel as an OTP, because hey, sleeping with his sister and no chemistry whatsoever. Yet Laurel could have won me over on her own. I've been known to like characters in spite of forced/unfortunate pairings (I've always liked Cam on Bones as a character, for example, even though I didn't like er...any of her pairings, actually).

 

About the material/cliché, Laurel wasn't the only character plagued with bad writing. Thea had extremely thankless material, maybe even more thankless because she was "The Teenager" and many people (me included) are unforgiving with the trope, and yet W.Holland managed to make lemonade out of it (so much I've liked her from the start). Felicity needed one scene, for God's sake, for people to want to see more of her, and Diggle needed several only technically, because he had several scenes in his first episode.

Beyond the writing, K.Cassidy failed imo to inject warmth, humor, self-deprecation or even to convey eagerness in her way to interpret her character. Unlike, still imo, C.Haynes, who had quite a cold-to-frigid reception and still has detractors, but managed it seems to win over quite a number of people over because of his investment.

 

The EPs have tried many things with Laurel, but there are things that imo are common to every incarnation of her. Self-entitlement, selfishness, arrogance, bitchiness, and all to the point of stupidity. Take the very first scene at CNRI when she shuts the TV, the restaurant scene with Tommy, the way she rains on her parents' parade when they believe Sara is alive...that's only part of S1.

And it's not only the writing. For example, over first viewing, when Laurel dismissed Diggle and Felicity, K.Cassidy delivered "partner" with such a despising intonation that my brain didn't register the word and I thought she said "boss".

 

There's just imo an inadequation between what the character is supposed to be (*cough* in some fanboys dreams *cough*) how the character is actually written, and how the character is unfortunately played, that makes Laurel a blackhole of suckitude for me. And the more they're going to force her, the more imo Laurel is going to be out of place, especially in case that the EPs go on with what organically works in every other aspect of the show.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[dtissagirl]

I partially blame Laurel because everyone and their mothers told Laurel not to go into the Glades and she goes into the Glades, not to rescue anyone or anything, to save a filing cabinet. So her stupidity is the reason Tommy went there to get her which resulted in his death. 

 

I think it's also a cumulative thing. Laurel and Oliver sleeping together and Tommy seeing it through the window -- besides being one of the most embarrassingly soap-y things I've ever seen on primetime TV -- made Laurel and Oliver look like jerks, while Tommy got the audience's sympathy. So by the time Tommy saved Laurel, a significant part of the audience was already fed up with her. The fact that the writing makes it so easy for people to blame her for Tommy's death just adds to it. If only she had gone to the Glades to save an actual client, instead of manila folders.

Edited July 4, 2014 by dancingnancy

[JenMD]

I really don't see the problem with her character in season 1. Season 2, sure but that was partly because of the negative reaction to her in s1 which baffles me. Because she dared to be upset with Oliver? Because she dated Tommy? Because she didn't have humorous moments constantly? I just don't get it (and this is a problem that spans many shows and characters male and female for me).

For me, the character of Laurel just never grabbed me.  It happens, not everybody's going to like every character.  I found her uncharismatic and kind of brittle, I guess is the description I'm looking for (I haven't done a rewatch since S1 first aired and I kind of tuned her out).  There was nothing about her that I found interesting, although dating Tommy is not one of the reason I disliked her, I actually liked Tommy and Laurel together.  I thought Laurel and Oliver were terrible together (to me they define negative chemistry) and any attempt at reconciliation or longing or whatever just made me roll my eyes.  I'd only seen KC in one thing prior (Monte Carlo, which I recall liking her in), and I came in with no prior comic knowledge of the GA universe or expectations of what Laurel should be like or who she may turn out to be in the future, but I thought KC was nothing more than passable at best in S1 (worse at times in S2).  Sure there are difficulties in making Laurel work as a character (the writers certainly don't make it easy) but she just doesn't do it for me. 

[catrox14]

My problem with Laurel continues to revolve around Katie Cassidy.  Look, I get that when an actor gets tossed around with different arcs and is something of a plot device it's problematic but if I find the character "likeable" or "hateable in an entertaining way because of something that the actor brings to the role be it some of their own personality or they can just find something in the character to build on, I'll roll with that for a while. Give the character some kind of personality. I just don't get that with Laurel at all. I feel like she only does what is on the page and doesn't try to imbue Laurel with anything makes her "Laurel" no matter what situation she is in.

Edited July 4, 2014 by catrox14

[scarynikki12]

I think that Laurel was passable in season 1.  The writing wasn't very strong and Katie was woefully miscast, but she was easy to ignore and hope that things would improve when she became the Black Canary.  Then came season 2 and the show gave me the Canary that dreams are made of when they brought Sara back.  I love Sara and never want her to leave (unless it's to headline a Birds of Prey show) but, if the show ever wanted this viewer to accept Laurel as the Black Canary then Sara should have stayed dead.  It's not surprising, though, as they did the same thing in season 1 by making Felicity a regular, exploring her friendship with Oliver, and laying far better groundwork for a romantic relationship than Laurel has received.  With Laurel, I KNOW that Oliver cheated on her repeatedly, that he didn't give a damn how it would affect her, and that she turned a blind eye the entire time because she likely had a vision of her life and Oliver fit that vision.  That's not the foundation of any relationship I want to root for.  

 

So, with romance and Black Canary firmly removed from my wants as a viewer, what does Laurel have left?  Honestly?  I can't think of anything legit.  I can think of a few things for her to do until Cassidy's contract runs out (Manhunter, villain, showing up once in a while at AA meetings with her dad), but not Black Canary and not protagonist love interest.  I'd rather Cassidy get cast as the lead on some forgettable show that garners enough viewers to stick around a few years and stop wasting my time.

[statsgirl]

I can't agree with that as the major focus of the season was the triangle and it was the main character interaction of the season (which I enjoy more than the action a lot of the time). 

She was the apex of the triangle, and yet Laurel-the-character wasn't really necessary to it, any female who both Tommy and Oliver wanted.  Yes, she was pretty and I'm told she's smart but I never understood why these guys wanted her in the present. Maybe Tommy because he didn't seem to know any nice women. 

 

The s1 finale didn't help because Oliver told her to stay out of the Glades, Moira told her to stay out of the Glades, Quentin told her to stay out of the Glades but she didn't listen to them so Tommy went down to save her and ended up getting killed. And then she turned around and blamed the Hood for not saving him, and her father for trying to take her to AA.  Granted, it's tough to play but KC never got me to feel any sympathy for Laurel.

 

 

Self-entitlement, selfishness, arrogance, bitchiness, and all to the point of stupidity. Take the very first scene at CNRI when she shuts the TV, the restaurant scene with Tommy, the way she rains on her parents' parade when they believe Sara is alive...that's only part of S1.

That's a big problem for me with almost all of Laurel's scenes, that the self-entitlement and arrogance takes over. I don't know if it's in the character or KC's interpretation of her  (I suspect the latter) but it's like she expects the world to revolve around her and when it doesn't (Dinah believing Sara is still alive), she takes revenge.  Even with Oliver, she'd say it's over forever, and the next episode she'd be running to him with her emotional problems.

[Luckylyn]

They really should have had Laurel ignore the warnings about danger in the Glade to save a client's life instead of files because it made her look stupid and Tommy's death senseless.  I don't know why they couldn't have given a more plausible reason to endanger herself. 

[Orion]

I would even take that one step further beyond just Laurel could have been any female is did the triangle do anything to move the plot at all. Granted I tend to zone out or go to get a snack when Laurel appears on screen (I'm trying to be better during re-watch) but from what I remember from S1 Oliver pretty much shrugged his shoulders and moved on, Tommy was bothered by Oliver being "in love with Laurel" but it didn't change how Tommy's character behaved other than him dumping Laurel which added nothing to the plot (Tommy' big arcs in the end of S1 were finding out about the Arrow, Quitting Verdant after Oliver thought he sold drugs and going to work with his father, and saving Laurel), and Laurel spent most of her time doing.. you know I have no idea what Laurel was doing she was wobbling around so much at that point. (Love Arrow, Hate Arrow, Hate Oliver, Forgive Oliver, Feelings for Oliver even though he slept with her sister, can't get past him sleeping with my sister, Love Tommy, Bye Tommy - Oliver's available now, Determined Lawyer, I do what for a living now?) Long way to get to that triangle didn't move anyone, it didn't change anyone and it didn't bring out anything we didn't already know about the story. For most of S1 I took Oliver at his word when he kept repeating he was happy Laurel was with Tommy. But maybe I'm forgetting about something where the triangle added more to the story?

 

I was reading an article on how to determine the line between bad writing and bad acting. The article basically said that bad writing relates to the story and choices the character makes but even with bad writing a good actor is engaging to watch. The best example I could think of to for that is the scene in Streets of Fire. "Ollie, there are to many of them" and "what am I suppose to do with this" (in regards to Oliver's bow and arrows) both are horrible lines - just terrible, but the way KC acts them out, weepy eyes, whiny, high pitched voice, makes the dialogue worse. Instead of someone scared but determined to stand at Oliver's side - firm voice, dry eyed, determined we get visual confirmation that even while rescuing herself she's still a damsel in distress. Compare that to Felicity after the Count has taken her hostage and, "Don't Oliver, not for me." strong firm voice despite being held by a psychopath for an extended period of time, determined tone of voice even while obviously crying and afraid. Even Felicity's arguably worst line of the series, "save Oliver" is said with nuance determined with a touch of fear when her voice goes slightly higher. It doesn't have to be a humorous moment or even a huge character beat it just has to be leveled with emotion. The article also pointed out that if other actors in the same movie or show are getting bad dialogue but over coming it with their acting choices then the fault is with that particular actor and that's why I would put the blame around 60/40 for acting and writing. KC isn't interesting to watch IMO despite the bad dialogue where everyone on the series is. She's not elevating the material she is given but YMMV.

[pootlus]

There are a litany of things about Laurel's character that could have been vastly improved in a fairly simple manner (even ignoring the 'recast an actress able to be warm and likeable consistently') - why they were not done, and why the character was neglected so badly, is something that I hope may come out eventually when the show isn't on the air any more.

 

Did TPTB seriously think that "Love interest" was enough to sustain Laurel's narrative while they worked out whether Katie Cassidy could convincingly portray the Black Canary?  Because the latter should have been done prior to the show starting and someone high up should have shot down the former when they were planning out Season 1.

[abhi]

I haven't seen Katie Cassidy in anything before but it looks like she is incapable of playing a "sympathetic and likable" character. The moments which should make me want to like Laurel make me hate Laurel because Katie Cassidy's portrayal of those emotions come across as fake and over the top. For example, In her scene in the Arrow cave when she asks Felicity and Diggle to given them (Laurel and Oliver) a moment, it was Cassidy's tone which make it look like she was addressing someone beneath her status. (couldn't she have used a softer voice and make it appear as if she is requesting them rather than ordering them around. I do think that these are acting choices and not something that's written in the script). 

[slayer2]

I have seen her in 4 other things, she's more than capable, the writing for Laurel sucks as just as the writing for Thea sucks. I don't reckon this team is particularly brilliant in writing female leads. The start out strong and end up all messy and weird. I thought Laurel season 1 was lovely and totally rootable, didn't see any chemistry with Oliver (although I did see it with the Arrow) but season two Laurel while I did like her, seemed like a series of one-offs. There wasn't a through line all the way through the episodes for her, she was Lana Lang or Chloe season 3, she just didn't make any damn sense and I attribute that entirely to the writers.

KC is responsible for one of my favourite characters of all time in Ella Sims, she's right up there with Faith Lehane and Rayanne Graff, trust me when I say she can play likeable.

[Velocity23]

From what  seen on Arrow it doesn't show. And she did had some material where she could have shown us she is good. I cant judge her on her previous roles but only what she shows us on Arrow. Yes the writing for Laurel is bad, but KC doesn't make things better with her portrayal of Laurel. And there is also the problem with KC public appearances where she doesn't seem to grasp and understand who Laurel is and is almost catty with fans. She just seems to be too focused on the BC magical jacket. She is the one who needs to bring the fans on her side and not give them advice to  read the comics. 

[catrox14]

The TPTB don't have any trouble writing for Felicity who IMO is the defacto female lead. Laurel is the ostensible female lead and the lead on paper but KC seems to not get that because IMO she has done nothing to stake her claim to her character and make it her own. IMO she's badly miscast in this role and it shows. 

 

The writing for Thea is not great but Willan takes what she's given and makes it work. 

Edited July 5, 2014 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

I used to legit like KC. I've seen most of her previous TV work [never saw any movies], and while, yes, she's your average typical CW actress, I thought good enough things about her skills to be pleased when she was cast on something. And for the first half of S1, while I didn't exactly find Laurel an interesting enough character [plus the blackhole of SUCK in her scenes with Amell], I didn't have that much problem with KC's acting. A bit one-note, but I figured everyone was finding their characters still.

 

But somewhere in the second half of S1 she started phoning it in, AND she filled her forehead with so much botox that her face stopped. moving. completely. That's when she started resorting to Daytime Soap Diva acting, and never went back to regular primetime acting since then. I remember watching Salvation live, and my friends and I were livetweeting the episode, and every single comment during her scenes were "why isn't her face moving?" And that is a problem.

Edited July 5, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Sakura12]

KC's face not moving is the only thing I started paying attention to in her scenes. I was so amazed her forehead did not move an inch when she was supposed to be crying and/or scared. So I guess I went from being bored with her all of season 1 to wondering why her face was frozen in the first part of season 2 to wanting her off my screen the rest of season 2 and still want that for season 3. 

 

During the first season I was resigned to the fact that Laurel would be the BC eventually (still wasn't thrilled about it), but then they gave me Sara and her awesomeness (plus cast an actress that can not only kick ass IRL she also seems like a cool person that the rest of cast likes to hang out with). Making Laurel even more useless and unwanted. So the EP's really screwed up there with wanting to bring another DC character to add to their collection of every DC character they can get their hands on. I don't need the second version of the character when I love the first one and that character is still perfectly capable of fulfilling the role. Who cares about comics, no one on this show is like their comic counterpart. 

[Orion]

I've never seen KC in anything before so I can only judge her from Arrow but my guess is that on other shows she was playing a character in wheel house. Angry, bitter, bitchy, weepy, emotional, afraid. She does those really well. But Laurel, the way she is written, can't just be any of those things at once. She's being asked to play someone who is very complex and it's just not in her acting repertoire. Laurel's writing is bad and the writers have had her all over the place, I personally think its them attempting to "fix" that character and they keep throwing things at a wall hoping something sticks but the entire cast has had bad writing at some points and they are able to rise about it. But writing isn't the only issue. For example, Laurel doesn't have mannerism that is associated with her. Think about each of the other characters, they move in a certain way that expresses how they are feeling. Those things aren't scripted but they do add to how alive a character feels. Felicity when she gets nervous talks with her hands, she pushes her glasses up when she's feeling self-conscious. she even played with her hair when she was flirting with Barry. Oliver makes the arrow nocking with his fingers when he's stressed or uncomfortable and he looks up or away while talking with someone, Diggle folds his arms when he's uncomfortable and he adjusts his clothing when he needs a moment to gather his thoughts. Those are all choices the actors are making and KC doesn't have an emotional tick for Laurel. Yes that's something really small but it is often the small things that make a character come to life. It's a level of thought that she isn't putting into her character that shows on screen. Like someone here said before, she does what's on the page and that is it. When you are standing on screen as a leading lady you have to do more.  

[Sakura12]

Well, you could count Laurel always having to hold something because Cassidy doesn't know what to do with her hands and arms when she's acting. But yeah, It seems like Cassidy just reads her lines and collects her paycheck. 

 

Body language is also an important part of acting. When Sara's the Canary you can see her standing tall and proud, but when she's around other people like at the party Olive threw for her she had shoulders hunched and arms tight at her side like she was tying to be as small as possible. SA and CL look to have put some effort into differentiating pre-Gambit Oliver and Sara and after-Gambit Oliver and Sara, same their alter egos. But with Cassidy, sober Laurel and drunk Laurel looked and acted exactly the same. Then for some reason poisoned Laurel acted drunk. Which when you think about it's even more weird when we saw 2 other people take the same poison and they both didn't act like that. The assassin guy keeled over and died right away and Sara held a conversation with both her parents then collapsed and held a conversation with Nyssa.

[catrox14]

Your comment about Laurel not knowing what to do with her hands brings to mind the Supernatural episode where Sam has to act and he has no idea what to do with his hands.  I swear if Cassidy would do something that interestingly terrible and hilarious I would be on board.

Edited July 6, 2014 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

It's bad acting by an actress who seems incapable of showing vulnerability or warmth, and who seems to be more interested in her fashion blog business than the show; on top of a backstory that kneecaps Laurel from the get go -- WHY did she date Oliver back then, WHY would she ever want to go near him now?

And then you mix in the lack of chemistry with her supposed love interest; the massive negative reaction from audience and media, that forced the writers to scramble her storyarc several times over; at the same time that they're successfully replacing her as love interest [Felicity] and as Black Canary [sara]. At this point, the bad writing is more of a consequence of having to deal with this huge pile of problems FROM OUTSIDE THE NARRATIVE that the character comes with, than it's the bad writing making Laurel such a terrible character.

Edited July 6, 2014 by dancingnancy

[KirkB]

Supernatural is what I keep coming back to with Cassidy, since it is the only other thing besides Arrow I have seen her in. Ruby was a vibrant and emotional character who really made an impact in her scenes. Sure, she couldn't quite compete with Ackles or Padalecki but you knew whenever Ruby showed up that something was going to happen. Laurel just...well, I sometimes forget she's there.

[Carrie Ann]

There was actually one scene where I thought KC acted with her whole body instead of just standing and saying lines, and it was in Blind Spot. At the end, she's at the police station after the man in the skull mask is revealed not to be Sebastian. She's wearing very little makeup, and drab casual clothes. She's sitting on a chair with one leg pulled up to her chest, and she looks very small and young and scared. It's just a moment where her physicality is so different from the way Laurel usually presents that it really stood out to me, and at that point in the season, I still had hope that they could do something about the Laurel Problem.

 

But I just rewatched it and even in that scene, KC holds the exact same position, throughout a conversation with her dad, and the arrival of her boss, and his explanation of her termination. It's not until it becomes clear that it's really final that she finally gets up, in desperation. So even that little thing that made an impression on me amounted to some wardrobe/makeup decisions and an unusual posture. But still, I wish she would do more of that type of thing, because at least it conveys something to me about Laurel's internal state. (And superficially, I wish they would ease off the makeup on her, because in my eyes, she was much more striking with a more natural look.)

[catrox14]

I agree with you about Cassidy in Supernatural. It's kind of jarring that she actually has some screen presence there but I agree with the commenter that said that kind of role seems to be in her wheelhouse and she's also a supporting character so a little goes a long way.  I'm struggling to see that she could have played Ruby the way Genevieve Corteste did in s4 which required a much more nuanced performance (not that Genevieve Cortese was all that good). 

 

I did think Cassidy did well in the hospital scene when she was trying to convince her Dad that she wasn't crazy. She actually elicited sympathy from me.

[Lokiberry]

I agree with you about Cassidy in Supernatural. It's kind of jarring that she actually has some screen presence there but I agree with the commenter that said that kind of role seems to be in her wheelhouse and she's also a supporting character so a little goes a long way.  I'm struggling to see that she could have played Ruby the way Genevieve Corteste did in s4 which required a much more nuanced performance (not that Genevieve Cortese was all that good). 

 

I did think Cassidy did well in the hospital scene when she was trying to convince her Dad that she wasn't crazy. She actually elicited sympathy from me.

I've never seen Supernatural, but is it possible that the show was just better written than Arrow? And, that Ruby was just a more compelling character than Laurel? I've seen plenty of actors who are decent enough when they get good material, but fall to pieces when the script is weak. I think that might be KC's problem. She can't rise above bad material.

[catrox14]

Not to get too off topic but Supernatural is a funny beast. FTR I only became an SPN viewer within the past year and I've binge watched all the seasons on Netflix so her performance as Ruby is fresh in my mind.

 

In all honesty, it's hard to compare the writing because the shows are so different in tone and content and style. It's much much darker and creepy and well, kind of messed up on many levels. But IMO, it's had some of the best writing (Ben Edlund) I've had the pleasure to watch and literally some of the worst. It really depended on the writer. I also think Cassidy benefited as a relative newcomer 6 or 7 years ago from being under the tutelage of the late Kim Manners as a director for many episodes and executive producer during her time on the show not too mention working alongside excellent actors like Jensen Ackles, Jared Padalecki, and Jim Beaver who I've seen sell some really awful writing.

 

That said,  Ruby was a demon and not particularly complex and a little one note in her version of the character and IMO there wasn't a ton of range required other than snarky and sarcastic. Others may disagree with my assessment but that's how I saw her. She also didn't sell the fight scenes in general that convincingly but the ones that did look good I tend to credit because Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki can sell fight scenes better than most IMO.

 

TL;DR : Hard to compare the writing because shows are so different to pinpoint character problems. From the purely acting side, she actually did seem to make Ruby her own and she was interesting to watch but Ruby was not a complex character IMO  She still couldn't sell the action and fighting IMO which she would have to with Black Canary. 

 

ETA: I also think it's possible that as a newcomer back then maybe she was really trying to invest something in her character a bit like EBR has with Felicity to make a statement where she's not really doing that now.

Edited July 6, 2014 by catrox14

[Sakura12]

Didn't Kim Manners call Cassidy one of the most uncoordinated actresses he ever worked with? I thought I heard that somewhere. 

 

Supernatural didn't require much in the way of range. She was playing a snarky demon that popped up every once in awhile. So Ruby was an easier role to play. I can't just put the blame on the writers,not when I've seen actors rise above crappy writing and make the character their own. Alison Mack was given nothing but crap on Smallville but she managed to make Chloe likeable and want me to root for her. She became a fan favorite even when she betrayed the hero Clark (to be fair Smallville Clark was a huge douchenozzle) but still, I was on her side. 

[KirkB]

Oh yes, a good enough actor can overcome even the crappiest writing, or at the very least make their performance entertaining and fun to watch even if what they are being forced to say is vapid and ridiculous. And yes, as a demon Ruby was a very one-note character, but IMO she was fun to watch. Crazy stuff happened when Ruby was around. Laurel is just there. The crazy, interesting stuff usually only happens when she is elsewhere, and she seems to suck a lot of the energy out of the scenes she is in. That's primarily because of Cassidy, though the writing for her character doesn't help.

[Luckylyn]

 

I've seen plenty of actors who are decent enough when they get good material, but fall to pieces when the script is weak. I think that might be KC's problem. She can't rise above bad material.

That's a good point. If the writing were better, Laurel might be more interesting and likeable.  It's hard for an actress to rise above crap writing like having her character ignore 3 warnings and endanger herself to save files leading to another character to be killed.

[Morrigan2575]

Didn't Kim Manners call Cassidy one of the most uncoordinated actresses he ever worked with? I thought I heard that somewhere.

Yes it was in a Supernatural compendium, if I remember correctly.

As for Ruby, she was in 6 or possible 8 out 16-18 episodes (it was an abbreviated season due to the writers strike). She doesn't fight in most of them and it's a very one note character, snarky bitch...that's it.

301 - shows up staring evily at Sam then disappears, shows up at the end in a (IMO) weak fight sequence, saves Sam with magic demon killing knife.

302 - meets Sam in diner gives him attitude about how she was ready to follow Evil General Sam to take over Earth, now she's pissy because he didn't fulfill his destiny so she's on the run from Lilith but she can help Sam kill Lilith and save Dean from hell

303 - shows up, gives Bobby attitude, he shoots her with Colt doesn't work.

Episode with the witches, shows up gives attitude, gives Sam/Dean hex bags to protect them from the witch/demon. Later resucues boys from Demon corrupting the witches, no fighting, uses powers. Shows up at end, tells Dean he can't be saved, and will go to hell/become demon.

Jus in Bello, shows up gives attitude, (sensing a pattern yet?) Tells them to kill Virgin Nancy, Dean refuses, she gets pissy because Sam listens to Dean and not her, leaves with snarky comment to demons outside. Shows up at end to tell Dean/Sam they were stupid for not listening to her.

Season Finale, Dean summons Ruby, steals Demon killing knife, quick fight scene. Ruby gets bitchy, shows up at end when Sam/Dean go to confront Lilith. Does nothing, that I can remember, Lilith takes over her body and attacks Sam with powers, (basically holds her hand up, white lights, fan blows hair) realizes powers don't work and smokes out.

Most episodes she had 5 minutes of screen time, maybe 2 of them she had about 10? KC got a good reputation for playing Ruby because Genevieve Padalecki sucked so much, but S4 Ruby was actually much harder to play, IMO.

I stand by my TWOP comments from S3, Ruby was the better character played by the lesser actress. Bela sucked as a character and served no purpose to the season long arc but was played by a much better actress, Lauren Cochran (Maggie from The Walking Dead).

I only know these because I caught these episodes recently on TNT and was curious because of all the Laurel/KC defenders pointing to SPN S3 as proof that KC is a fantastic actress.

IMO, KC worked as Ruby because she had limited appearances, limited screen time, limited acting requirements (character was very one note, snarky/evil bitch) and character moved/served the plot.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

Same with me. I never hated Lana as much as I hate Laurel, she's enough to make me stop watching the show after 2 seasons. I watched all 10 seasons of Smallville. I became indifferent to Lana and just fast forwarded her scenes, she also never replaced any of the characters I liked or is partially responsible for a death of characters I liked.

I'm not sure I ever hated Lana at all, to be quite honest, in spite of wishing her death at the end of season six. I hated Clana with a passion, and Clana is why I quit watching, but Lana herself separate from the ship I felt no particular animosity for, not like Laurel. I quit because I'd become convinced that the show was determined to push Clana all the way to the bitter end of the show, and I couldn't deal with it anymore. If I'd known that just a year later Miller and Gough and Kristin herself would all leave the show, I might have stayed, but by the time I knew that, I was already well out.

Laurel is actually kind of a unique case for me, because I've never quit a show that I otherwise liked as much as Arrow over one character before. While I think the writing for the second half of season two has been a mess, it still wouldn't be enough for me to quit the show over if it weren't for the Laurel situation. I just don't think I can deal with Laurel as Black Canary and being on Team Arrow. She grates on every nerve. I really wish it was otherwise, because there is a lot that I am interested in regarding this upcoming season, but it's not worth the continual annoyance of dealing with her.

Re: KC as Ruby - I only watched the first few episodes of season three before I quit watching the show, and I barely remember her. That scene of Bobby shooting her is about the only thing that I remember. It's the only other thing besides Arrow I've ever seen her in, so really the only thing I have to judge her on is Arrow, and I think on this show she's been terrible, bad writing or no. As others have pointed out, everyone else has been able to rise above the writing - so why can't KC?

Edited July 6, 2014 by Starfish35

[scarynikki12]

 

I've never seen Supernatural, but is it possible that the show was just better written than Arrow?

Like others said, it depended on the writer.  I will say that show, when I watched it (I stopped after season 5), was generally more consistent with a clear plan for the characters each season and that's something the Arrow writers need to do with Laurel.  

 

As for general show quality, I think a better comparison for Katie's acting abilities is Harper's Island.  The show itself didn't have a very good plot (everyone I know online and in real life correctly guessed the killer long before the finale) but, like Supernatural, did give us consistent characters.  Katie's character, Trish, was probably my favorite bit of acting from her, far more than Supernatural, Gossip Girl, or the Melrose reboot.  I didn't see the reboot, but her characters on SPN and GG both required her to have major attitude, which we know she can play.  HI, on the other hand, gave her a character that was kind, friendly, trusting, and non jealous.  We all expected nothing but cliches from Trish when the show started, as her fiance's BFF was a woman, but she was written and played as not being remotely concerned about their friendship and loved the BFF herself.  The character did go through emotional turmoil (it is about a serial killer picking off the wedding party one episode at a time, after all), but it was in response to the deaths and threats they were all experiencing rather than contrived reasons.  

 

That's what I've wanted to see from Katie with Laurel and I haven't seen it.  I'm told that Laurel is a kind woman who only sees the best in others, but what I've seen is a woman who is excessively competitive, has narrow focus, and is a snob who seems to want what her sister has and whose big issue in light of the wreck and flashbacks is that she didn't get to fulfill the plan she'd laid out for herself and Oliver, rather than the reality that he cared so little for her that he cheated on her over and over.  If there weren't a shipwreck, I think Laurel would have gotten her way and married Oliver, because he never broke up with her despite not being invested in the relationship.  Then she would have what she wanted and the fallout would have been far more public humiliation as Oliver wouldn't have changed.  It took a near death experience, followed by five years of hell, to make him regret the way he treated her when they were together.  He wouldn't have changed just by wearing a wedding ring.  Now, if the show wanted to explore Laurel's faults and false expectations when the baby momma drama happens, great, because she needs to see that Oliver treated her like shit and all the money in the world won't make up for that, but that would require the show to see that she has them.

 

Anyway, if Laurel were written like Trish, I'd at least love the character if not the portrayal.  But, we have this instead so it's hard to even like her at this point.

[Tangerine]

I was rewatching New Girl with a few friends the other day and had completely forgotten that KC guest starred in season 1 as, funnily enough, a recovering alcoholic party girl. And the crazy thing is I TOTALLY believed her in that role. She was sympathetic and believable, and you could tell that she was vulnerable, but still had a bit of that mean girl streak going. So somewhere in between that and Arrow she seemed to have completely lost all sense of how to inject a character with vulnerability and warmth. Granted, the writing she's being given is completely awful, but she's either phoning it in or forgot how to act. 

 

I wish the writers took the time to make me understand what Laurel saw in Oliver in the first place. Because what they are doing is making her seem...stupid. The fact that she even wants him in her life baffles me. Particularly after his second round with Sara. Just whhhhy?

 

Yes, and if this had been fully defined, I may have a better understanding of Laurel as a character. Since season 1, she was never defined as her own character to me, she only existed as part of this Tommy-Laurel-Oliver triangle. Now that that's gone, I don't know WHAT she is. I know this show is supposed to be about Oliver and the Arrow, but I can't root for a female lead that only serves as a plot point because comics. 

The thing is, we've only ever seen Oliver's BAD traits pre-boat crash and it just makes Laurel look either shallow, wilfully blind or clueless. None of which are particularly flattering.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Tangerine

[icandigit]

 

Unfortunately that makes her out to be a shallow person.  Maybe she is.

I would be ok with that if the show would just own it.

[statsgirl]

Laurel's mother is a university professor and her father is a police detective so I'd say she was middle class rather than blue collar.  We know that Laurel, Oliver and Tommy were in high school together and maybe earlier than that ("I've loved you half my life").  I can fanwank that Dinah thought that education was so important that they scrimped to put the girls into a ritzy private school, but that's not the same as the show actually telling me why Laurel was in school with Tommy and Oliver and how they got together.

[foreverevolving]

Laurel's mother is a university professor and her father is a police detective so I'd say she was middle class rather than blue collar.  We know that Laurel, Oliver and Tommy were in high school together and maybe earlier than that ("I've loved you half my life").  I can fanwank that Dinah thought that education was so important that they scrimped to put the girls into a ritzy private school, but that's not the same as the show actually telling me why Laurel was in school with Tommy and Oliver and how they got together.

Have they ever told us what subject Dinah taught(teaches), and whether or not her teaching career was always as a college professor?

 

Because (and i literally came up with this theory while reading your post) i do wonder if the way Laurel and Sarah managed to go to a fancy private school was because their mother worked there and part of the benefits was free or low cost education for her children. i mean you see it all the time at universities here in the US. i can certainly see this being the actual case rather than Dinah and Lance having to scrap every cent for school. because in all honesty the house they showed us that the Lances live in? that place looked nice, and the outside (as seen from the windows) looked very clean and suburb like. so i can very much imagine them living in a nice neighborhood that has a really good public education, so why would they save money for a private school, unless! they had free or cheap access to it. and somehow while Laurel seems like the kind who will get straight A's and scholarships to cover the costs, pre gambit sarah does not- so how did she went to that same school (and wait, come to think about it, have they ever told us Sarah studied there too?- i can't remember).

[TanyaKay]

Have they ever told us what subject Dinah taught(teaches), and whether or not her teaching career was always as a college professor?

 

 

In that dinner from hell in Time of Death, Dinah Lance mentioned that she teaches Latin and/or literature at the university in Central city but even if you are tenured professor in a top notch university, you make anything between 65 - 100 grand a year and I don't think a professor teaching Latin would be making the same amount of money that someone teaching electronic engineering would be making. They were definitely and decisively middle class and the kind of douche bag that Oliver was, it was unlikely that he would go out of his way too look for a homely girl from a middle class background.

I also fail to understand how Moira was so okay with Laurel. Considering that she was a snooty/uppity person, she would not have taken too kindly to Laurel being from a different social strata. I mean what's the difference between Laurel and the girl who got pregnant with Oliver's baby. If that girl was not good enough, then why Laurel? The show has way too many discrepancies in the storylines. I can look over a lot because it is based on comic but I just cannot get over this epic love story of a cheating douche and his social climbing girl friend who drops her steady boyfriend like a hot potato the minute the cheating guy showed interest in her.

[foreverevolving]

 

In that dinner from hell in Time of Death, Dinah Lance mentioned that she teaches Latin and/or literature at the university in Central city but even if you are tenured professor in a top notch university, you make anything between 65 - 100 grand a year and I don't think a professor teaching Latin would be making the same amount of money that someone teaching electronic engineering would be making. They were definitely and decisively middle class and the kind of douche bag that Oliver was, it was unlikely that he would go out of his way too look for a homely girl from a middle class background.

 

which is why i wonder what i do. if Dinah taught latin or literature at the private school Tommy and Oliver attended, it is possible that one of the benefits she was entitled to as a faculty member of a very prestiges school was free attendance to her daughters. as i mentioned many universities have such a benefit for their staff and faculty, i can see it happening with a K-12 school too.

as for why Laurel.. I don't know, maybe at first he did that out of spit to his mother and than stuck around cause he realized she believed his lies and because she was convenient? you know being a rebellious uber- rich teen dating the middle class class mate, that's bound to piss off mommy just a little bit.

 

regarding the Laurel vs. Connor's mother and Moira reaction. i don't remember Moira's reaction being specifically about the girl, but rather the situation- the baby was a threat to the future of her very immature son, and i do want to believe a part of her was worried for the future of the baby (because let's face it Oliver at that point would have made a terrible father!). about her feelings regarding Laurel in general, it is possible that after awhile she realized that Laurel was a studious young girl with big aspiration who could make a good socialite wife, smart enough to hold a conversation, but stupid enough to not notice/forgive her husband affairs (i wonder if in some twisted way Moira saw her younger self when she looked at Laurel).

 

with that being said i would like to point out that i am in no way a Laurel fan, and i am 100% an Olicity shipper. i just love to speculate on the what if's and the maybes. 

 

ETA: i should that this post was originally posted in the relationship board and has apparently been moved to here. just in case you are wondering where it suddenly came from..

Edited July 7, 2014 by foreverevolving

[scarynikki12]

i can see it happening with a K-12 school too

That's exactly how my brother and I were able to attend our private K-12 school, so it's very likely this is how the Lance sisters were able to meet Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

about her [Moira] feelings regarding Laurel in general, it is possible that after awhile she realized that Laurel was a studious young girl with big aspiration who could make a good socialite wife, smart enough to hold a conversation, but stupid enough to not notice/forgive her husband affairs (i wonder if in some twisted way Moira saw her younger self when she looked at Laurel).

 

I think Laurel was smart enough to learn what she needed to be taught in order to be who Moira wanted her to be and more so, she's a known factor.  A presumed "good influence" on Oliver despite that fact that rather than being under her influence, Oliver just lied and did what he wanted.  She also was someone Moira could influence without much trouble.  I say this as fact rather than speculation since if Moira can manipulate a city, she can handle Laurel.   

 

Yes, I think Moira would have decided that Laurel suited her purpose just fine.  If anyone tilted their nose down at the pair, she could spin it as tru luv - who can stop that?  When in reality she probably was the one filling Laurel's head with meant to be and soul mates and pushing Oliver to grow up. 

[TanyaKay]

but guys, teaching at K12 school and a university requires a different career trajectory. A university professor is required to do a doctorate, then post doc then lecturership and then a proper tenure track whereas for K12, you need a masters in the subject and a teaching diploma from a university. Some get an additional degree in education but they are usually in education management, if Mrs Lance was a school teacher, she cannot become a university professor in the present, it is kinda not possible - unless Mrs. Lance was a school teacher to begin with and is now teaching at a community college in Central City because she just wanted to get away from Detective Lance and her whiney ass lawyer daughter after Sara was declared dead.

My brain is simply not willing to accept that in any universe, Laurel Lance (the TV version of that character played by KC) can be a viable/acceptable romantic possibility for Oliver Queen. Yes, I am that opposed to the idea of L/O relationship, either in the past, or present of future or even in a fucking alternative universe of reality. Yes, I feel that passionately about it.

[scarynikki12]

Unless she kept working on her doctorate while teaching at the hypothetical K-12 school. My American History teacher earned his doctorate while teaching, my Western Civ teacher came to us with her doctorate, and my mom was working toward her doctorate before she realized she wanted to be a lifer at our school (where she already met the requirements with her Masters) and dumped it. Say Dinah was teaching at the K-12 school so that Laurel and Sara would get to go for a super reduced rate/free but working on her doctorate at the same time. Depending on when she started, she could easily finish before Sara's graduation and just remain at the school until they no longer needed the tuition break. The shipwreck would also be perfect incentive for her to pursue a university position and allow her to focus on something other than losing her daughter.

[foreverevolving]

Unless she kept working on her doctorate while teaching at the hypothetical K-12 school. My American History teacher earned his doctorate while teaching, my Western Civ teacher came to us with her doctorate, and my mom was working toward her doctorate before she realized she wanted to be a lifer at our school (where she already met the requirements with her Masters) and dumped it. Say Dinah was teaching at the K-12 school so that Laurel and Sara would get to go for a super reduced rate/free but working on her doctorate at the same time. Depending on when she started, she could easily finish before Sara's graduation and just remain at the school until they no longer needed the tuition break. The shipwreck would also be perfect incentive for her to pursue a university position and allow her to focus on something other than losing her daughter.

precisely! i would also imagine that a prestige private k-12 school would push his faculty to earn a Phd, because it will be something they can say when showing the school around to potential parents, it reflects good on the school having hired teachers who have a Phd.

also

 

but guys, teaching at K12 school and a university requires a different career trajectory. A university professor is required to do a doctorate, then post doc then lecturership and then a proper tenure track whereas for K12, you need a masters in the subject and a teaching diploma from a university. Some get an additional degree in education but they are usually in education management, if Mrs Lance was a school teacher, she cannot become a university professor in the present, it is kinda not possible - unless Mrs. Lance was a school teacher to begin with and is now teaching at a community college in Central City because she just wanted to get away from Detective Lance and her whiney ass lawyer daughter after Sara was declared dead.

well... this is TV land, more so- this is a comic book based TV land, if super soldiers juiced on a super strength drugs is possible, i would say a woman teaching in a super exclusive K-12 school while earning her Phd, or when she already has it, is quite possible. also, we don't know how high/low rated central city uni really is, maybe it's a decent enough university where just having a masters in a specific subject and the established teaching background will be enough to get hired. for example, the university i go to while many of the younger professors (under 40) have a Phd, a good portion of the older ones(40+) do not. the age group Dinah belongs to is of a time where having a master degree was just enough to gain employment at a university as a professor (according to a couple of my professors- i asked as i am debating doing a master in teaching myself). the all race to a Phd was just starting to become very common and asked at the turn of the century- by that time Sarah and Laurel were in they mid-teens and probably already studying at the school.

Edited July 7, 2014 by foreverevolving

[tv echo]

Here's my speculation:  It's possible that Laurel's mother came from a rich, society family and broke away when she fell in love with and, over family objections, married a cop.  She pursued a career she loved (using her liberal arts degree as a springboard) and took nothing from her family.  It's also possible that she reconciled with her family later, after she had two daughters.  The grandparents then set up trust funds for Laurel and Sara.  Hence, the two girls could afford to go to private school.  It would also explain why Laurel can afford to dress like a rich socialite even though she only worked nonprofit and government law jobs.

 

It would also explain Moira's approval of Laurel (family background), and Laurel's motivation for staying with rich playboy Oliver Queen (get back the lifestyle her mother walked away from).  It might also partially explain the mother's split from Quentin Lance - two disparate backgrounds with two different reactions to unexpected tragedy (Sara's "death") and being unable to communicate/connect with each other.

Edited July 7, 2014 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

In Time of Death, Dinah said she teaches Greek and Medieval history at Central City University.

 

I could see Dinah coming from a well off family and that's how she was able to get both her daughters into the same school Oliver and Tommy went too. Or while Laurel has other issues, I think we're supposed to believe she's book smart with becoming a Lawyer and everything and we know Sara's not stupid since she was able to pick up high level chemistry and forensic science from Ivo in a year. So they both could've tested well enough to get in on scholarships or something. 

Edited July 7, 2014 by Sakura12