Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[FurryFury]

No Sara's death is not the fault of Laurel - it was bad and lazy writing

 

Well, every problem is caused by bad writing. Just in this case, the bad writing was in service of Laurel. Yeah, they could have made her BC without killing Sara - but they were afraid she'll come short compared to her sister (rightfully), so they've got rid of the competition.

[apinknightmare]

Jesus, did he do another twitter explanation? Oy vey,this guy. BTW super-glad he's alive though, but why did his scenes with Laurel stop, granted (no pun intended) I prefer her with Nyssa but we're not really seeing that either.

He posted on Tumblr, IIRC. And he's gone because he was cast on another show.

[nksarmi]

Well, every problem is caused by bad writing. Just in this case, the bad writing was in service of Laurel. Yeah, they could have made her BC without killing Sara - but they were afraid she'll come short compared to her sister (rightfully), so they've got rid of the competition.

Which likely only made it much, much worse.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'll forever not understand why they cast J.R. Ramirez as Ted Grant because he was already recurring on season 1 of Power at that point.  For someone who was supposed to be a big part of Laurel's training & a possible love interest, why cast a guy that was gonna have filming conflicts?  Doesn't make sense.  

[slayer2]

I'll forever not understand why they cast J.R. Ramirez as Ted Grant because he was already recurring on season 1 of Power at that point. For someone who was supposed to be a big part of Laurel's training & a possible love interest, why cast a guy that was gonna have filming conflicts? Doesn't make sense.

Does anything they do make sense? C'mon now!

[FurryFury]

I'll forever not understand why they cast J.R. Ramirez as Ted Grant because he was already recurring on season 1 of Power at that point.  For someone who was supposed to be a big part of Laurel's training & a possible love interest, why cast a guy that was gonna have filming conflicts?  Doesn't make sense.  

Because they don't really care about Laurel. With her, they are just checking boxes off. Like outfit, canary cry, training, superhero name. He was a way to show her getting her combat skills, I doubt they were invested in his character or on his relationship with Laurel. Everything about Laurel just feels so... perfunctory. Like they were forced to write in this character by the executives and can't get rid of her or make her really work.

[Lady Calypso]

I'm just gonna imagine that Ted's dead until he shows up on screen. It's much easier that way for me.

 

Ok, so The Flash mini crossover was the first time since season 1 that I loved Laurel. Katie Cassidy has a really pretty smile, did anyone else notice? Because I sure didn't until now. When she's not doing the unbearable smirk like she usually does, she's actually likeable and less eye-rolling. Maybe it was Cisco bringing that out in her, but it was the first time in a while that I bought KC's acting.

 

I mean, look at this gif:

 

 

 

I don't know, it just seems...happier, more smiley, more...natural. It starts off cocky and conceited as usual, but the end of the gif, it's like KC is actually having fun and enjoying herself. Sometimes, I feel KC isn't enjoying her role as Laurel, because she has perma-bitch face. Maybe that's how she perceives Laurel to be or she just hasn't mastered natural acting or whatever, but this is one of the instances where I felt like KC was doing a great job. 

 

 

Even in the quiet way that she thanked Cisco made me endeared to her. Also, looking back on season 1 gifs, I think KC looks much better with dark hair and not the stupid blonde highlights that she now has. The darker hair makes her look younger, too

 

 

And I actually watched her scenes a couple of times, once for the acting and another time for the dialogue. I guess for me, it's now clear that the writing does her no justice. Sure, KC isn't a strong actress, but given the right material, and I actually like her. Maybe she SHOULD just move over to The Flash as an ADA permanently. She can share scenes with only Cisco and I wouldn't hate her. 

 

Wow...one episode, and my opinion has changed about Laurel/KC (somewhat). I always thought KC had a really major part in why I hate Laurel, but...you know, this is one of the rare times she has given a strong performance on this show because she was given good material to work with. Ok, dialogue aside because the Canary Cry is going to be stupid, and it would be stupid with even Caity Lotz if she had the same sonic scream device. 

 

Also, her Black Canary outfit is stupid. The eye mask, in particular, looks awful on her; actually, I think it makes her look like a raccoon. I think they need to find a better fitting mask. And outfit in general.

[Sakura12]

She smiled more, yes. But I saw the same entitled, demanding, glory brat she always is when she was on the Flash. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

Every time I see Laurel smile I remember her smiling at Sara giving her the jacket and heading off to the League in s2 finale. You know, it's so great that your sister has to go back to being a self-hating murderer! Squee!

Edited April 23, 2015 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

Every time I see Laurel smile I remember her smiling at Sara giving her the jacket and heading off to the League in s2 finale. You know, it's so great that your sister has to go back to being a self-hating murderer! Squee!

But the writers didn't write that as a bad thing.  It was just so odd. It was like they thought they were writing Sara and Nyssa getting back together after they just worked together to save SC.  When instead, per their own dialogue, they were really writing Sara going back to a life she hated and sacrificing her freedom to save SC.  Somehow I noticed these writing failures less in seasons one and two, but they are getting glaring this season.

[FurryFury]

I've no idea how we're supposed to interpret that scene, or whether it was a writing choice, directing choice or acting choice. The only thing I know it looked really off and made me hate Laurel even more.

[Morena]

Every time I see Laurel smile I remember her smiling at Sara giving her the jacket and heading off to the League in s2 finale. You know, it's so great that your sister has to go back to being a self-hating murderer! Squee!

my dislike for her character increased immensely in this scene. seemed that Sara was going to do a cruise vacation

[nksarmi]

FF - I think I took my cue from Caity/Sara.  If I recall correctly, she seemed to almost skip away with Nyssa.  I remember it seeming like a happy moment for her and thinking it didn't really fit with what we had previously been shown.

[FurryFury]

It was easy to fanwank it as Sara's brave facade and trying to not fall apart. No such luck with Laurel, she should have been concerned, not happy.

Edited April 23, 2015 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

The best I can do for "fanwanking" it for Laurel and Quentin would be that neither one of them had any idea what the organization she was going back to really represented?  Lord help me, I don't want to go back and watch these scenes, but Sara never really filled either one of them in on how bad the LoA was, did she?  All of her exposition about wanting to leave that life was to Oliver, wasn't it?  Heck, I think given what we were shown this season - Sara didn't talk to Quentin or Laurel much at all.  I don't know why they didn't ask more questions.

 

Plus, again if I recall correctly, that it appears that Sara loves Nyssa and is restarting her relationship which likely comes as a surprise to Quentin and Laurel, but if they were trying to be supportive, I can see them acting happy not worried.

 

I am not trying to be overly apologetic for Laurel, but I just don't think she knew everything Oliver did in terms of Sara/LoA/etc.... I never had any dislike for her in that scene or thought she was acting like a bad sister. 

 

Now that I think about all of this - the Sara/Oliver romance was bad in more ways than one.  Not only did it help propel Laurel on this stupid drug/booze plot in season two - it prevented Laurel and Sara from really bonding again which is sad.  They introduced Sara as BC in all but name, make Laurel hate her, and never really reconcile the two before killing Sara off in order to make Laurel BC.  I do not think they could have chosen a worse way to tell Laurel's story.  It's almost like they WANT fans to hate her.

[FurryFury]

Plus, again if I recall correctly, that it appears that Sara loves Nyssa and is restarting her relationship which likely comes as a surprise to Quentin and Laurel, but if they were trying to be supportive, I can see them acting happy not worried.

 

Nothing has been shown about Sara/Nyssa in s2. I've heard they had made up after this but if they were together or friends is apparently unclear. Anyway, it's hard to imagine Sara forgiving Nyssa already during/soon after s2 finale to the extent of restarting their relationship. 

 

Anyway, Laurel's (and KC's in interviews) glee is what I remember the best from that shoddily written and acted scene, so this is why I simply can't look at her smiling and not become angry. This was the moment I knew I was done with Arrow.

Edited April 23, 2015 by FurryFury

[slayer2]

It was easy to fanwank it as Sara's brave facade and trying to not fall apart. No such luck with Laurel, she should have been concerned, not happy.

See I don't agree that it's easier to fanwank. I just think cutting slack to CL and not KC. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Sakura12]

I would think "League of Assassins" is pretty self explanatory. If they couldn't figure out what that was then Quentin and Laurel need more help than I thought. 

 

The fact that they both acted like Sara was going on cruise vacation and not going back to a life of killing people, made me angry at both of them. Quentin I can sort of forgive since he was seriously injured. Laurel had no excuses and looked like she was happy Sara was leaving so she could get all the attention again or take over her life, which she then did when Sara died. 

 

I also saw Caity play that a scene a little more subdued when she handed Laurel her jacket. She smiled when she got on the ship because she was putting on a brave face for her family. Sara tried to kill herself to get away from that life, she was not happy to go back to them. She only went because that's how she got the Leagues help to save the city.  

 

KC even said in an interview she was so happy to get that jacket that she couldn't stop smiling. That's why I don't cut her any slack. She let her own feelings get in the way of her acting. Which is something you are not supposed to do. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

KC admitted in interviews that she couldn't stop grinning in that scene, take after take, because she was so excited to be getting the jacket. So I don't see Laurel at all in that scene, I see actress Katie Cassidy grinning at fictional character Sara Lance, in blatant breach of the fourth wall. Cognitive dissonance ensued.

[Lady Calypso]

I can say that season 2 was easily a clusterfuck when it came to Laurel's character. She's never been well written, and she's never acted well, but season 2 was all around bad for Laurel and KC. They either wrote her as an uber bitch, a jealous sister, or a shrill shrew. KC did her worst acting all throughout season 2 and there was not really any moments that I can recall liking her. KC was just horrible season 2, and the writing/directing was horrid to her. I think it pissed fans off, including myself, that it was just getting Laurel to become BC and we all knew Sara was going to have to die for that to happen. It angered a lot of us more early this season that Sara died right away and Laurel was already on the path to become BC. Bu it was season 2's Laurel that made her wholly unlikeable. I don't even know what the show was trying to do with Laurel. Either she was left out of episodes for no good reason, she was having her stupid alcoholism storyline (which was poorly directed, written and acted), she was getting mad at Sara for no good reason whatsoever, or she was flip flopping every other episode. 

 

God, I can't express how much I hated that jacket scene with Laurel/Sara. KC made a poor choice with that smile for sure. But....geez, couldn't the director have, y'know, done his job and TOLD KC not to smile and to try a different acting tactic? There are many times where the directors could tell KC to do something different, but the point is that they don't seem to and they allow Katie to make these poor acting choices. It's their job to not only make the scenes work visually, but also to direct the actors! They don't always know best, after all! I've started thinking about that kind of stuff more recently and yes, we can absolutely blame KC for her acting choices, but we can also blame the directors for letting her do this. They have a job to do and it absolutely includes making sure the acting is on par.

 

I know KC said something like she couldn't stop grinning, but...I don't know, she could have with a different direction. God, I feel weird defending KC because I really don't like her or Laurel, but I guess seeing now that she has potential to be likeable...it just pisses me off that she's been so unlikeable and horribly written, especially in season 2. But then again, this show makes the worst choices sometimes when it comes to direction of characters and plot. Actors need to do their job, absolutely. But so does everyone else behind the scenes that see this happening. You can't tell me one person behind the scenes saw this poor acting choice and not told KC to change it up. Maybe they did and she couldn't, but I would like confirmation that this happened.

[dtissagirl]

I think it's the last episode, it's a night shoot on location, which nobody really likes, especially after a long season. If ANY actor can't stop grinning three or four takes in a row, the director just moves on. That's what's they're getting from that actor. I understand picking their battles -- ie not stopping to have ~a talk~ about character motivation in the middle of the night, and did I mention it's the last episode? -- to keep the schedule.

[catrox14]

Cassidy is a veteran actress, she's not a noob. She should be able to at some point overcome whatever emotional thing she personally has going on that is stopping her from giving a performance that is suitable. Since she is openly admitting she couldn't quit smiling since she was finally becoming Black Canary, I think that is really unprofessional. There is also the problem of how much time they have to spend trying to get the performance from the actor they need.  IMO if KC cannot find one MOMENT of an appropriate smile after multiple takes then they have to just move on.  So, yup, for me that is 100% on KC. It's one thing for the actors to crack up or goof around during scenes or struggle for the right tone and working with the director and other actors to find it but this sounded like she just couldn't help herself and didn't particularly seem to care. Or maybe she was deliberately forcing the take she wants. Either one...is not good. 

 

I think the reason Laurel was all smiley with Cisco is that she had her first superfan ,who openly praised her when it was really Sara he was praising. What would have been nice is if I had a sense that here being smiley was because she was proud that someone acknowledged Sara's efforts but IMO that is not what came across.  To me it was just more propping of Laurel through another popular character.

[tessaray]

I think the reason Laurel was all smiley with Cisco is that she had her first superfan ,who openly praised her when it was really Sara he was praising. What would have been nice is if I had a sense that here being smiley was because she was proud that someone acknowledged Sara's efforts but IMO that is not what came across.  To me it was just more propping of Laurel through another popular character.

 

Since TF knew Sara died and when, I'm pretty sure Cisco knows the difference.  He just thinks anyone with a mask beating up bad guys is cool, which is totally in character.  What I didn't like about the scene was Laurel name dropping TA - it came across wrong.  

 

KC does come across better when she is relaxed and smiling though.  She was also good in the scene with Ray, before he became Team Arrow.  

[Duke Silver]

Less is more.

 

None would be even better.

[catrox14]

Since TF knew Sara died and when, I'm pretty sure Cisco knows the difference.  He just thinks anyone with a mask beating up bad guys is cool, which is totally in character.  What I didn't like about the scene was Laurel name dropping TA - it came across wrong.  

 

KC does come across better when she is relaxed and smiling though.  She was also good in the scene with Ray, before he became Team Arrow.  

 

I didn't say Cisco didn't know who Sara was.  Cisco was the Black Canary superfan. My point was more that Laurel seemed to be accepting the praise for "Black Canary" as though she was the person Cisco was referring to; that she had been the one doing all the superheroing when she just barely started. It was her reaction that bugged me.  To me if Laurel had smiled more ruefully, like she knew Cisco meant Sara, instead of that shit eating grin like she had when Sara left again...it would be so much better.  What also would work is if Laurel just straight up admits she stole Sara's life because she thought Sara's stole hers then all of her inappropriate grinning would actually make sense to me.

Edited April 24, 2015 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

I didn't say Cisco didn't know who Sara was.  Cisco was the Black Canary superfan. My point was more that Laurel seemed to be accepting the praise for "Black Canary" as though she was the person Cisco was referring to; that she had been the one doing all the superheroing when she just barely started.

 

She was the one Cisco was referring to. 

[tessaray]

I hated the S2 finale, so I get that Laurel grinning can induce bad flashbacks but I was just trying to judge the latter scene in context.  :Laurel has been out beating up bad guys for months now.  Ineptly, for the most part but long enough for show purposes.  

[catrox14]

I hated the S2 finale, so I get that Laurel grinning can induce bad flashbacks but I was just trying to judge the latter scene in context.  :Laurel has been out beating up bad guys for months now.  Ineptly, for the most part but long enough for show purposes.  

 

I guess that's the problem then for me. Because I don't feel like she has been successful at beating up bad guys for that long. She's done a few things but IMO not enough for Cisco to be so fangirly about Laurel doing it. Just my perception because I think it's unearned.

 

 

 

She was the one Cisco was referring to.

 

I'm not communicating well here. 'Black Canary" was superheroing when she was Sara long before Laurel ever did.  Her badassery was known to Team Flash IIRC. Laurel IMO has not be superheroing long enough to have any kind of decent street cred.

 

Basically, that scene did not work for me at all because if Cisco was referring to Laurel as the Black Canary then IMO it's totally unearned and total character propping for Laurel because her length of time in superheroing is not all earned. If Cisco was talking about Sara, then Laurel's grin is inappropriate.  If Cisco was talking the generic "Black Canary" , being both Sara and Laurel ...Laurel's reaction should have been more reserved...not giddy.  I just couldn't find anyway to make that scene work for me. YMMV

[apinknightmare]

Cisco knows Sara is dead and went by "Canary." Him fanboying "Black Canary" is him fanboying Laurel.

[Sakura12]

I think catrox14 is trying to say that Laurel has done nothing to earn Cisco fanboying over her her. Unless of course he's just fanboying over people dressing up in silly costumes. Which is fine, but then Laurel shouldn't be getting an ego boost from that. 

 

Nothing Laurel has done has earned her the name Black Canary. Her father called her that in anger for not telling him Sara was dead and making him think she was alive by pretending to be her. That name is an insult not something to be proud to go by. The only way these EP's think that Laurel is going to be liked is if everyone keeps telling her awesome she is without her actually doing anything, thinking that will rub off on the audience. 

 

I have no idea what these writers are thinking, here's a Black Canary that can't fight, is an entitled brat who doesn't think before she acts, beats up unarmed men in hospital beds and got her name because her father was angry at her for lying about her sister's death. That's a hero everyone should look up too. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by Sakura12

[tessaray]

I guess that's the problem then for me. Because I don't feel like she has been successful at beating up bad guys for that long. She's done a few things but IMO not enough for Cisco to be so fangirly about Laurel doing it. Just my perception because I think it's unearned.

 

As far as I can tell, it only takes once for Cisco to go all fanboy.   

 

Has Laurel earned the name "Black Canary"?  Well, since QL meant it to be sarcastic and demeaning, maybe.  :-)  Still, in the universe the show exists in, Laurel is taking out her frustrations on bad guys on a regular basis.  So, whatever.  Sara may be my Canary but the BC is who the Arrow's writers say she is.  

[tessaray]

I think catrox14 is trying to say that Laurel has done nothing to earn Cisco fanboying over her her. Unless of course he's just fanboying over people dressing up in silly costumes. Which is fine, but then Laurel shouldn't be getting an ego boost from that. 

 

Nothing Laurel has done has earned her the name Black Canary. Her father called her that in anger for not telling him Sara was dead and making him think she was alive by pretending to be her. That name is an insult not something to be proud to go by. The only way these EP's think that Laurel is going to be liked is if everyone keeps telling her awesome she is without her actually doing anything, thinking that will rub off on the audience. 

 

I don't disagree that Laurel hasn't earned hero status but no one outside the TA inner circle really knows that.  The general public would only see the leather suit and the mask.  And that is something Cisco would fanboy.  

 

At this point, TA seems to have given up and accepted Laurel into the vigilante ranks.  I think the show expects us to do the same.  Sometimes it's just easier to go along with it.  (Especially since the spin-off was announced.) 

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, I would call that a writing problem, as usual. I don't think Laurel deserves this praise from Cisco. She's barely done anything and has gotten beat up more times by bad guys than her kicking bad guys' asses. The problem is that Cisco said he liked her beating up criminals, which is just...weird. Well, weird in its own way. I guess Cisco is the one who has all those metahumans in prisons, after all, but still. But yeah, writing problem as per usual. I think the point I was making more so was that Katie Cassidy sold what she was trying to sell. It didn't fall flat, she felt lively and I thoroughly enjoyed her interaction with Cisco. I guess for me, it felt less like her being smug and condescending as always and more....I wouldn't say humble, but more appreciative that somebody has given her some recognition. Nobody thus far has done so. Oliver's critiqued her, Diggle and Felicity try to stay far away from her and Quentin's pissed. I'm on their sides 100%, but for her, it's clear that she likes that someone isn't criticizing her and she feels like for once, she's doing something right and she wants to do better. Hence, why she asked Cisco for help.

 

Again, I still don't like Laurel, I hate her as BC and I want little to do with her in scenes, but if we must have her, these are the types of scenes I want her in. Ones that do make her liven up, not make me cringe and have me realize she is capable of acting, especially given her track record on this show. That's all I can ask, since I know KC isn't going anywhere anytime soon. 

[Oscirus]

There was literally no other reason to kill Sara other than to make Laurel BC. Sara could have worked great in a LoA-focused season, and there probably was an easier way to involve Malcolm in all this anyway.

 

By the time she was killed, Sara's story was done. Her death served as a catalyst to the rest of the events that happened this season.  Yes Laurel's ascendency to Black Canary happened as a result of this event, but I doubt that the writers killed off Sara for Laurel's benefit.

 

This is why it makes me wonder whether the writers actually care for/ like Laurel's character? Because her BC arc was a rushed sloppy mess, then she's forgotten for about 4.5ish episodes and fail to integrate her into the team...

 

 It is kind of  strange that on the two episodes where's she would likely be exposed to non show fans that her time was minimized. It's also weird that Oliver has now twice left forever and not even bothered to say goodbye to Laurel. I  guess it's their way  if avoiding even a hint of those two being together romantically.

 

I'll forever not understand why they cast J.R. Ramirez as Ted Grant because he was already recurring on season 1 of Power at that point.  For someone who was supposed to be a big part of Laurel's training & a possible love interest, why cast a guy that was gonna have filming conflicts?

 

I assume his only real purpose was to train Laurel enough to where she'd be a realistic fighter then GTFO. Either that or it was a comic book call back. I don't think he was ever going to be around for that long. There wasn't enough room for him on this show.

 

I can say that season 2 was easily a clusterfuck when it came to Laurel's character. She's never been well written, and she's never acted well, but season 2 was all around bad for Laurel and KC. They either wrote her as an uber bitch, a jealous sister, or a shrill shrew

 

Yea, it's weird because she normally excels at this type of part.  I get that they were trying to rectify the first season by softening up Sara and hardening up Laurel but boy did they overcompensate. At some points it looked like KC didn't even want to be there.

[olicityfan25]

The whole reason they killed sara was because of Laurel and the boner they have for the one that carries the BC name. So ridiculous.

[FurryFury]

By the time she was killed, Sara's story was done. Her death served as a catalyst to the rest of the events that happened this season.  Yes Laurel's ascendency to Black Canary happened as a result of this event, but I doubt that the writers killed off Sara for Laurel's benefit.

How is it was done? So done they're now bringing her back for the spin-off? So done despite there being an entire season about the organization she so much histroy with? She had just sold her soul for the good of Starling City and returned to LoA. There was a whole story about her reclaiming her inner hero and clashing with Ra, her backstory with him and Nyssa and how it would influence the present, etc. I don't believe her story was done.And really, if there's one character whose story felt done it's Malcolm - and they've still brought him back.

 

At some points it looked like KC didn't even want to be there.

 

Well, from all the publicity she does, I assume the only thing she wanted is to get to play the BC. I guess they've told her it was the price.

[Oscirus]

How is it was done? So done they're now bringing her back for the spin-off?

 

Done for the Arrow. The storyline I saw was Sara tried to live the life of Sara Lance but she was no longer that person, she was an assassin which is why she went back essentially rejecting the freedom that she fought so hard to win.

[Pyramid]

Done for the Arrow. The storyline I saw was Sara tried to live the life of Sara Lance but she was no longer that person, she was an assassin which is why she went back essentially rejecting the freedom that she fought so hard to win.

But the whole of this season has been about Arrow vs the League. I really think Sara would have been a perfect bridge between the two. Missed opportunity rather than story done, in my opinion.

[FurryFury]

Done for the Arrow. The storyline I saw was Sara tried to live the life of Sara Lance but she was no longer that person, she was an assassin which is why she went back essentially rejecting the freedom that she fought so hard to win.

For me, the point was that she wasn't the assassin anymore as well. They've highlighted that by having her save a child from a fire (so cliched, but whatever). She was a hero - she just hasn't accepted it yet. And the rest of her story should have been her finally realizing it and dealing with LoA once and for all.

[tarotx]

Sara had so much to tell past and present. There was no reason to kill her off except for Laurel to be BC.

[Morrigan2575]

Done for the Arrow. The storyline I saw was Sara tried to live the life of Sara Lance but she was no longer that person, she was an assassin which is why she went back essentially rejecting the freedom that she fought so hard to win.

Taking response to the Sara thread

[nksarmi]

How is it was done? So done they're now bringing her back for the spin-off? So done despite there being an entire season about the organization she so much histroy with? She had just sold her soul for the good of Starling City and returned to LoA. There was a whole story about her reclaiming her inner hero and clashing with Ra, her backstory with him and Nyssa and how it would influence the present, etc. I don't believe her story was done.And really, if there's one character whose story felt done it's Malcolm - and they've still brought him back.

 

Well, from all the publicity she does, I assume the only thing she wanted is to get to play the BC. I guess they've told her it was the price.

Yea I am on board for them trying to make Laurel work - or just stop doing things to her character that will make the fans hate her for goodness sake.  But the idea that Sara's story wouldn't have fit in really well to this season is ridiculous.  And honestly, I really believe that Laurel's ascension to Black Canary would have gone so much better if they had wrapped Sara into her training and story rather than kill her off.

 

And yes Malcolm's story was done and I have NO idea why he is still around.

[FurryFury]

Yeah I don't think I'll ever be able to actually like Laurel, but Sara mentoring her would have at least been a start. As it is, the jacket scene and the overall idea of Sara needing to clear way for Laurel to claim her "destiny" (because comics!) made me hate the character with a passion.

[Chaser]

All of these possible fix-its being thrown out just kind of highlight my biggest problem with Laurel. It's too big a story to fit in Arrow. The narrative doesn't mesh.

 

I would have loved to watch a Black Canary/LOA/Sister Leads plot, but I don't want to watch it on Arrow. 

 

One of the biggest problems this season is that they are trying to tell two hero stories in relation to Oliver's, but they can't interconnect because that takes away from each individual Hero status.

 

As much as we complain about Felicity being stuck on Palmer Island, they still connected that to Oliver. Even if it was thru some bad episodes, we saw the affect on Oliver (and actual growth on his part). Other than Canaries, he seems to be over giving any thought to Laurel's journey. He tosses casual lines to remind the audience that she doesn't know what she is doing but does nothing to fix it. That scene at the wedding? Just to let the audience know that Nyssa is training Laurel. It was for their benefit and not Oliver's. 

[Sakura12]

Sara's story was completely connected to Oliver in both the past and the present. She didn't take anything away from him, other characters maybe but Oliver's the lead and her plot was tied to his. 

 

Laurel and Ray's storylines have nothing to do with Oliver and took the plot away from him. Oliver had nothing to do with Ray or Laurel and still doesn't seem too. 

[Chaser]

Sara's story was completely connected to Oliver in both the past and the present. She didn't take anything away from him, other characters maybe but Oliver's the lead and her plot was tied to his. 

 

Laurel and Ray's storylines have nothing to do with Oliver and took the plot away from him. Oliver had nothing to do with Ray or Laurel and still doesn't seem too. 

True. But as they have repeatedly said this season, Sara was The Canary. Not the Black Canary. So her origin could be tied to Oliver's. Even though I would say they had the perfect set up there, because while tied to Oliver, her actual journey into the martial artist fighter and that push to be more was away from Oliver. Sara was having their cake and eating it too. 

 

Laurel is supposed to be The Black Canary and The Black Canary can't be made by the Green Arrow. So separate plot lines. The longer they keep her separate from the narrative the more uncomfortable its going to be to put her there. Even know, she has been in the know all season and BC for almost half and she still disappears for a couple episodes when crap goes down. People still complain about her being in Cave. She could turn into a fully formed Bad Ass Black Canary next season and still not gel with the others.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Remember how the EPs told us that it's easier to write for characters who are in on the secret (of the Arrow's true identity)?  It's hilarious because Laurel knows the truth now, but they still don't know what to do with her.  She's just totally clueless all of the time...nobody tells her anything and she's MIA during significant moments.  She didn't know that Oliver was heading off to duel with Ra's (for good reason, but still), she wasn't there to greet him when he returned from the dead (she saw him return but wasn't at the actual reunion), she wasn't there when Roy said goodbye for good, and nobody bothered to fill her in about the day trip to Nanda Parbat to save comatose Thea.  Oliver wasn't planning on coming back, and he didn't even bother saying goodbye to Laurel.  She's the contracted "lead female," and there have been multiple episodes this season where she's been missing or had less than two minutes of screen time.  Her scenes are cut all the time.  She's largely kept out of Oliver's orbit and he's the main character.  I mean, with moments like this and this, I can completely understand why Laurel's role is limited, but it is quite bizarre how she is treated, and it really does make you suspect that yeah, maybe the writers do hate her.

[statsgirl]

Laurel is supposed to be The Black Canary and The Black Canary can't be made by the Green Arrow. So separate plot lines. The longer they keep her separate from the narrative the more uncomfortable its going to be to put her there.

What were they thinking, when they wrote the pilot?  This version of Laurel was always going to be behind Oliver because while he had five years of training at the start of the show, she had nothing other than some self-defense classes her father made her take.

 

Even if the response to Laurel in s1 hadn't been lukewarm, how could they have made her into the real Black Canary during the time of the show?  I think they would have needed to start her rise from the time Oliver was missing, which they obviously didn't.  Even if they hadn't compounded the problems by bringing in CL as Sara, I can't see a way it would have worked.

[Starfish35]

Yeah, it's like trying to turn Rachel Dawes into Catwoman (imperfect analogy but you get the point).

I suspect they probably did initially intend for Oliver to train her, if their relationship had worked out like they planned. *shrug* But I don't know. It's hard to figure out how much of what's happened with her was their original plan, and how much was them reacting to how she and the Lauriver relationship went over with the audience. And I don't know where they plan to go with her from here either. Even now, they're avoiding having her in Oliver's orbit much at all. That can't continue indefinitely.

As far as her appearance on The Flash.....yes, KC does have a beautiful smile, and yes, it was nice to see Laurel in a lighter moment. But I guess my issue with it was the, well, cognitive dissonance, as dancingnancy says. Because of the interviews KC's done, talking about how she couldn't stop grinning during last season's finale because of getting the jacket, and the more recent one talking about being in tears when she was fitted for the jacket she's wearing now....I kept wondering how much of this happiness is Laurel and how much is KC getting emotional over the BC fanboying? I guess to me my problem with the scene was that I felt like I was seeing KC more than LL.

On the Arrow episode, yeah, just echoing everyone else's thoughts. Why wasn't she at the hospital? Why was the airport scene cut? Why in that final scene was she acting like she didn't know anything about what was going on? I mean, she was at the airport even though that scene ended up being cut, so she had to have known Thea was in bad shape, even if Oliver lied to her about what he was doing. And I don't know that I mind Laurel comforting Felicity. It's just that that hug looked so awkward, like she didn't know what to do with her arms.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

They had to be careful of how many people were in the hospital scenes and later at the loft with Oliver. Malcolm, of course, and then the two people closest to him.  Any more and it would have been too much of a crowd scene and taken the attention off of Oliver's pain.  But I think that it says a lot about how Laurel's relationship to Oliver has been written that Roy if he were still around would have been closer to Oliver than she is.

 

I can understand the airport scene being cut for time because it wouldn't have given us any new information.  But it's a shame that it was for Laurel's sake, and made the last scene of Laurel comforting Felicity kind of weird.  In terms of the overall show, Laurel's relationships with anyone other than her family and Oliver don't matter but it does tend to put her off on an island by herself..