Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[lizonthefritz]

Yeah, I know what you meant. Still, I wouldn't say he trusts Ray's ability in the field. And with reason, because for all of his supersuit Ray got his ass kicked repeatedly. :)

 

I'd say that for the most part he doesn't have to trust Ray because he's not working alongside him on a regular basis. In this isolated case, he'll trust Felicity's faith in the suit because the suit is actually the best weapon they have against the metahuman (arguably even better than the Arrow since his skin isn't laserproof). So teaching Ray is a by-product of the need for the suit, not the start of a mentorship.

 

Laurel, on the other hand, he actively distrusts and downright resents for shouldering her way onto his team without his say-so. In some ways I get Felicity's defense of Laurel, but I think she's wrong. It won't be her life on the line if Laurel can't get it done in the field so she should let the decision of whether or not Laurel will tag along in a fight up to Oliver.

[KirkB]

Once difference between Laurel and Ray. Ray agreed to get out if things went bad, and as soon as they did he flew off. If Laurel had been attacking the guy she would have kept going until he either killed her or someone else came to help. Stubborness is fine but it has to be tempered by knowing your limitations, and I think Laurel's biggest failing is she doesn't think she has any.

[bethy]

The point - which is not even My point, I just read it around the net and thought of bringing it here- is that he is opposing the woman among the newbies.

...

It's a bit tricky, objectively speaking.

So, the concern is that Laurel is being opposed and that she happens to be a woman?

Because there are lots of reasons - well-articulated above - for Oliver to oppose Laurel, and because the fact that she's a woman isn't one of those reasons, I don't understand why it's tricky. I'm not trying to be snarky, I really don't understand.

Edited because parallel sentence structure is important, kids.

Edited April 18, 2015 by bethy

[chaos is welcome]

Yeah, I totally agree. I don't think he has a problem with her being a woman. The point - which is not even My point, I just read it around the net and thought of bringing it here- is that he is opposing the woman among the newbies. All of the newbies are untrained. He did train Roy. He encouraged Ray. But he hasn't trained her (For outside reasons we know). He snaps at her and tells her she is an addict - which I enjoy way more than I should (and, which strangely, some people see as a foundation for a love/hate relationship-how?! whatever)

 

It's a bit tricky, objectively speaking.

 

@lizonthefritz: Yeah, I know what you meant. Still, I wouldn't say he trusts Ray's ability in the field. And with reason, because for all of his supersuit Ray got his ass kicked repeatedly. :)

I don't think its sexist though.  Oliver knows IN HIS BONES!!! (Get it? I know ya do), that Roy and Ray (why did you do that writers?) will listen to him in a pinch.  They will, when their proverbial balls are against the wall, defer to Oliver, because they KNOW he's been through hell and survived and is probably right.  Laurel . . . yeah, not so much.  And it has NOTHING to do with  her lack of balls OR that Oliver cares about her IMO. He cares about Roy too.  (Probably not Ray, though lol. But Felicity would be sad if Ray died, so maybe he does).  She basically, in every single instance where Oliver has asked, told, demanded she do one thing, done the COMPLETE OPPOSITE and often with weighty consequences.  (TOMMY!)  I could maybe forgive this of her, given the egregious cheating with your sister thing, except #1, she does the same thing to her dad, #2, she didn't care that her sister wasn't dead.  Even if she banged your boyfriend, a normal human being would STILL BE GLAD HER SISTER IS NOT ACTUALLY DEAD instead of throwing a "its alllll about you SARA!" Temper tantrum, with a capital T.  And, last but not least, she failed to tell her father her sister was dead.  If i wrote with hashtags, this would get a #thingsheroesdontdo and #thingsIwillneverforgive

Edited April 18, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[statsgirl]

We don't know how Oliver is going to react if Thea wants to join them.  The girl's been training with MM for a whole year, and she acquitted herself pretty well on Lian Yu.

 

Oliver was opposed to Helena going out but when he saw that she was determined to, he bought her a crossbow and a purple leather suit.

 

He didn't oppose Sara once he knew she could fight, and Shado was one of the people who taught him.

 

He didn't want Felicity in the field, which was stupid and has spawned a hundred fanfics were she learns to fight inspite of/because of/taught by him.

 

 

 

Once difference between Laurel and Ray. Ray agreed to get out if things went bad, and as soon as they did he flew off. If Laurel had been attacking the guy she would have kept going until he either killed her or someone else came to help. Stubborness is fine but it has to be tempered by knowing your limitations, and I think Laurel's biggest failing is she doesn't think she has any.

If I had to pick one reason beyond Laurel's lack of fighting skills, this would be the one.  She doesn't take orders; she gives them. She doesn't take advice; she does what she wants.  (She is an adult, it's her right.)

 

Ray was willing to listen to Oliver's advice because he knew Oliver was a better fighter; Laurel rarely listens to anyone else ("When are you going to stop telling me I need more training?").  Both Oliver and Laurel are control freaks in the same direction.  The difference is that Oliver's earned his cred through the past 8 years while Laurel hasn't even been at it eight months.

 

Nyssa is a much better person to train Laurel than either Oliver, who still has feelings for her especially those of feeling responsible, or Ted Grant whose fighting style has limitiations for a woman.  Nyssa will be kind(er) to Laurel for Sara's sake but she won't put up with any attitude.  And few people are better fighters than Nyssa.

[nksarmi]

After watching nine episodes of Daredevil - I have learned two things.....

 

1. I think Ben Affleck was a fine Daredevil and I liked his movie.

2. I really don't want to see my protagonist get the crap beat out of him every episode by every body in the damn show.

 

Ergo, I don't give two cents about Laurel's BC being believable anymore.  She is training with Nyssa so I will believe she can survive against a low-level LoA person.  I don't give two cents about realism or her hero's journey anymore.  Sure, I don't mind if she takes a shot or two, but if she is in a fight - I don't want Oliver to have to save her and I don't want to see her lose.  All of that would be worse than making me believe she got THAT good with Nyssa THAT fast.

Edited April 18, 2015 by nksarmi

[kismet]

I want Laurel to get her shit together training wise off-the air asap (MG feel free to put it in the comics), so that we can stop having this conversation about the BC's journey. It is not her show, so give her the skills already and a good arc or part in the plot. But like people said, everyone else has come in with a basic fight skill set, that just needed to be honed. Roy was street fighter. Diggle was trained armed forces. Felicity was supreme hacker. Sara, Nyssa & huntress all had fighting experience. Even the people that interact with OQ (but are not part of TA missions/story arcs) were trained in someway Malcolm, Slade, Shado, McKenna, Tatsu & Maseo. So in the present day & in flashback, everyone that surronds OQ that he collaborates with & fights alongside are trained to some degree. The exceptions being Ray (who had a suit built by FS, whom OQ trusts) & LL (who has a law degree & some self-defense classes, not quality resume to be in the field). I never saw OQ dismissing her as controlling or sexist. Its just reasonable logic. He's been engaging in mental & physical battles for 8 or so years now and has always been surrounded by people who are skilled and trained. So I don't think he wants her out in the field as a liability to herself or others. He cares about her, but that is only a part of why he's just not that into her being a vigilante.

 

Personally, I think the problem is the writers have a problem with the identity of LL because they never wrote or envisioned her as BC. So they laid no foundation for that story, and then they gave us Sara which fulfilled so much of the BC story/character. But now they are getting screwed by their own "cuz Comics" rule, they set up her name to be one person and then wrote an entirely different journey for her for 2.5 seasons. She has a long way to go from where they started her character off to master martial artist fighting metahuman. At this point, its likely so long, that I don't need to see anymore of it. It can be just be lampshaded in s4 at this point. I don't know why they took this roundabout route to LL/BC, but here we all are. If people were being really honest, no one is probably really happy with where LL/BC stands as a character or story arc at this point. In trying to please so many, they pleased none. This might be an over-exaggeration, so I apologize for my hyperbole. But really it does feel like there are more people frustrated than pleased with LL/BC.

 

But truly, I just wish LL/BC were less of a divisive character. It just pulls away from the enjoyment of the show. I really want them to make her a better character in s4 and beyond, because right now I don't know what role she plays anymore. She isn't good enough to be BC. Her narcissism & stubbornness flairs a little too much, to be likable. And the two things that made her character enjoyable to watch the show has killed (tommy & her relationship with her dad). I want to be able to root for her like I did in s1 or early s2, but they are making it challenging. Honestly, if they aren't going to change her name & codename - since everyone is now calling her BC (even if we don't know why), I just want them to make her more a character I want to see on the screen. As opposed to a tag-a-long player that she seems now that she follows TA around and occasionally drops by the police station with paperwork. Even her big move of OQ in 319, wasn't even that big. MG have you been watching your own show?? LL has been standing up to her father since before s1. If your gonna promise something big, just deliver it already. Like I said before they need a major pow-wow over the hiatus to figure out what to do with her character now that they have written her into a corner both as BC & LL.

[statsgirl]

I didn't mind that the "Laurel goes very far for Oliver" was standing up to her dad.  I was afraid it was going to be breaking Oliver out of jail, or blowing up the evidence locker..

[Oscirus]

I'm sorry but an ADA walking through the police station and yelling for a suspect to keep their moth shut like a defense attorney without anybody batting an eye is beyond ridiculous.  I get that her father will protect her but there only so much he can do when she does dumb shit like that. That scene pretty much screamed "please like Laurel, see she's fighting for Oliver." Also it's pretty hard for me to take the risk/her sacrifice seriously when her father is always around to protect her.

[statsgirl]

Quentin's not always around to protect her though. She lost her job last season because of her addiction and she had to blackmail the DA to get it back.

 

But you're right that she was acting more like a defense attorney than an ADA (could be why Oliver never bothered to get legal representation for himself).  Even in her role as a lawyer, the writers are having a hard time finding the right thing for her. It's better than what they come up for her as the  Black Canary but still problematic.

[nksarmi]

Quentin's not always around to protect her though. She lost her job last season because of her addiction and she had to blackmail the DA to get it back.

 

But you're right that she was acting more like a defense attorney than an ADA (could be why Oliver never bothered to get legal representation for himself).  Even in her role as a lawyer, the writers are having a hard time finding the right thing for her. It's better than what they come up for her as the  Black Canary but still problematic.

I think this is because their inspiration for her should have been Matt Murdock (defend the weak) rather than Rachael Dawes (as others have said).  I think they started out more along the lines of having her defend the weak - those who can't defend themselves - and moved her into prosecuting the guilty.  They have just been all over the place with her and still can't seem to find a way to define her.  I really hope they figure it out in season four, because if she is going to stay a main character, I want to enjoy her or at least not be annoyed by her.

[statsgirl]

I'm 95% sure that Laurel is going to stay a main character next season. But MG replied "it's not going to affect what happens with Laurel" when he was asked about

Sara being on

the spin-off, and I admit it made me wonder about Laurel's role on Arrow next season.

[Sakura12]

Sara isn't going to effect Laurel's role since Sara's moving to her own show with her own team. 

 

Laurel's role will be being Black Canary with Oliver's Green Arrow. Felicity is the love interest and the tech person for the team. I'd be more worried about Dig's role next season. Laurel's already going by her comic name and will probably be a master martial artist next season, which some people want to just move on with her, but to me that would just mean there would be more of her going out with Arrow. 

[apinknightmare]

I think @statsgirl's point was that MG's answer was oddly phrased. Instead of saying, "It won't affect Laurel being Black Canary," or something of the like, he said "it's not going to affect what happens with Laurel," kind of makes it sound like something's happening to Laurel. Not that I think anything at all is happening to Laurel.

[Starfish35]

I think this is because their inspiration for her should have been Matt Murdock (defend the weak) rather than Rachael Dawes (as others have said).

Not to be snarky, but I think their inspiration for her should have been Dinah Laurel Lance/Black Canary from the comics, and forget the lawyer business. That's not to say she needed to be BC right off the bat, but they could have pulled from the BC backstory for her far more than they did, rather than inventing a whole new character/Rachel Dawes imitation and slapping the Dinah Laurel Lance name on her. If I'm understanding correctly, the original BC (Dinah Drake) wanted to be a cop, but wasn't allowed because women weren't cops back then. The new 52 BC (also Dinah Drake) is former military. Dinah Laurel's day job was florist. They could have pulled from a combo of any of that. But they went with lawyer, I guess because of Rachel Dawes and because MG wanted to make one character a lawyer. And maybe it's just because I personally find it the most booooring thing they could have done, but it's always annoyed me that they did that. :(

They could even have gone with her mother having been a former vigilante of some kind - why hire Alex Kingston and not have her kick ass? I don't know. Their choices regarding this character will never make sense to me. *sigh*

Edited April 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[tarotx]

I know broken record but they should have made her Manhunter since that character fits Laurel much better. Since Kate Spencer wasn't a popular character they could still combine a lot of Manhunter with the BC name & cry. To me that's the easiest way to progress her skill level.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunter_%28Kate_Spencer%29

[icandigit]

She's just a mask. The thing I like about superhero stuff is rooting for the person behind the mask. There's no established character to root for.

[Oscirus]

Quentin's not always around to protect her though. She lost her job last season because of her addiction and she had to blackmail the DA to get it back.

 

I should've been more clear. I was referring to the timeframe that she became Black Canary.  Between her father protecting her at the job, and Nyssa being her guardian angel at night, she's in little to no danger of having anything happen to her. If there's no tension, then it's  hard for me to identify with her hero's journey.

[KirkB]

My guess is "it's not going to affect what happens with Laurel" basically means bringing Sara back won't stop Laurel from being Black Canary. That could mean anything from Sara lets her keep the name to it's not really Sara. They're probably trying to reassure Laurel and Katie fans that just because Sara's going to be around again it won't detract from Laurel's story.

Edited April 21, 2015 by KirkB

[Chaser]

I had no desire to watch Laurel on The Flash this week so I skipped it but I have seen GIFs floating around on Tumblr of her and Cisco. Someone posted one that showed her smiling at Tommy and smiling at Cisco. And it really looked like a genuine, happy smile. It stuck me as weird more than anything. I didn't buy her in scenes with Sara when they were chummy (like in the Calm with the hair stroking) or when she was supposed to be supporting Sara (telling her she is a Hero). In the flashbacks with Oliver or even their friendly scenes in S1, I thought she came off looking like an airhead (FB) or fake. The same in The Calm with the cutesy "Did I say that too loud?." It didn't feel right.

 

I really never shipped Laurel and Tommy but looking at GIFs, KC was so much softer with Colin. A lot like she seemed to be with Carlos. Does Laurel work better with man that worship her? Or is it a chemistry thing? Does KC even like being on Arrow? That last one sounds mean, but I'm actually curious. 

[statsgirl]

Maybe KC works better opposite a male character that worships Laurel.

[Chaser]

Maybe KC works better opposite a male character that worships Laurel.

That is one thing Cisco and Tommy had in common. Totally crossed my mind too. 

[wonderwall]

I think Laurel played off quite well with Cisco. I mean, I want Laurel to be more humble, but I accept the fact that Laurel is just full of herself. It's a part of who she is, I suppose. This episode of Flash sort of emphasized just how much Laurel/KC doesn't fit on Arrow and just how much better she is as a character in a lighter show... I'm sort of bitter now because Laurel could've really done well as a floater. 

 

BC isn't tied to GA in the comics considering she does her own thing 90% of the time. So I don't get why the show is trying to tie BC/GA together in the show. I really do hope the show considers this for her character because I really think she could benefit.

 

Also this episode sort of emphasized that I honestly don't know who Laurel is? Like what even is her personality? Does she have one? Laurel doesn't have any distinctive traits which is sort of concerning for a lead character... I think the only distinctive traits she has is she's determined and doesn't think things through and a bit narcissistic... 

[quarks]

Laurel was an almost entirely different character in tonight's Flash episode, especially opposite Cisco.

.

[wonderwall]

Laurel was an almost entirely different character in tonight's Flash episode, especially opposite Cisco.

.

 

Maybe that's why people liked her...? I just really... I really want to know who the hell Laurel is. It frustrates me that she has no personality and that all she is, is her mask. that does not make a good character and it does not make a lasting character. I wonder if it's too late to rectify this mistake because, really, it's just frustrating that she has nothing about her that makes her special. Diggle, Felicity, Oliver, Roy all have traits that make them unique and special, I just don't understand how they dropped the ball with Laurel... 

[Chaser]

According to AK (I think that was the one), they told her lighten up because she is on the Flash. Just have fun. But that doesn't work in a connected universe. She goes back to Arrow and she isn't going to that girl anymore. She is back to Laurel.

 

Cisco's line about liking Laurel beating up bad guys was played for humor, but the Laurel who beat up bad guys on Arrow was much less heroic. It came across as disturbing as times.

[looptab]

 This episode of Flash sort of emphasized just how much Laurel/KC doesn't fit on Arrow and just how much better she is as a character in a lighter show... I'm sort of bitter now because Laurel could've really done well as a floater. 

 

I haven't watched the Flash yet, but I don't think the argument about her not fitting in on Arrow it's a fair one. Maybe she came off more likable because she was allowed to be, because she was written as such, while on Arrow they don't do it because drama. I don't think it depends on the show she's on, but on the writing itself. Or I am totally misunderstanding what you mean :)

[wonderwall]

I haven't watched the Flash yet, but I don't think the argument about her not fitting in on Arrow it's a fair one. Maybe she came off more likable because she was allowed to be, because she was written as such, while on Arrow they don't do it because drama. I don't think it depends on the show she's on, but on the writing itself. Or I am totally misunderstanding what you mean :)

 

IMO, I think that she doesn't fit on Arrow because she doesn't play off of other characters that well (especially Oliver considering their history). I mean, I never found her interactions with Diggle/Felicity to be that genuine and I never found her interactions with Oliver to be less than grating. The only two people she plays well off of is Quentin and Roy and they've ruined that both for Laurel. 

 

There could be numerous reasons why she doesn't fit (for me at least)... Maybe the writers don't give a damn about integrating Laurel properly, maybe her character just clashes with the others, maybe it's because Laurel's character fares better in a lighter show than in a darker one, just as Felicity fares better in a darker show than a lighter one. I don't think it's because the writers on Arrow want Laurel to be unlikable, I think they're scrambling for people to like her, I just don't think she fits the show because 1)Her character is too big to focus on, therefore the character suffers 2)There is a bloated cast 3)Laurel's character doesn't really gel well with others, maybe it's the way KC plays her on Arrow 4)The writers really don't know how to write Laurel on Arrow 5)Laurel is already a superfluous character, the only time she adds something new is when she's doing her lawyer thing and that doesn't take much screen time

 

It has nothing to do with the drama. I just don't think Laurel fits Arrow as she would on other shows. In fact, I think she would shine as a female lead in a BoP spinoff if the writers ever wanted to create one. Just take Sara, Laurel, Helena, and Nyssa and spin them off.

Edited April 22, 2015 by wonderwall

[Password]

I'd actually be tempted to watch that show.

[quarks]

I don't think it was just the writing. In fact the Flash crossover is one of the best arguments yet that a number of the problems with Laurel stem from the line readings/ acting choices Katie Cassidy has made, and also her directors.  Not all of her scenes on Arrow would have worked with the character she chose to play on this crossover, but a few - especially in the first season, and some of her scenes with Sara in the second season - really would have worked with this approach. 

 

I say this, because from a purely script point of view, the Flash crossover was not really any better "written" for Laurel - she was still outside both of the main plots, still managed to be the only character on the show that managed to accomplish pretty much nothing during the entire episode except to accept a gift (particularly striking after several episodes that didn't allow Iris to do anything, but let her make some important discoveries here), and was clearly on bad terms with another character.  Her actual lines weren't that much better either. And yet, this Laurel came off completely differently. I've argued for awhile that most of the problems with Laurel stem from the writing, and I still think that's true, but it's not the only issue.

[looptab]

OK, not so much a matter of writing but of context, then? I didn't mean that the writers want her to be unlikeable, but what seems to be going on is that the Laurel who was on Flash was not the same that is on Arrow. So if they basically told the actress "ignore what's going on in your show and just have fun", and she did act differently, I don't see it as "she fits better there than on Arrow" but rather as "oh, she looks like Laurel Lance, she's supposed to be Laure Lance, but she's not really Laurel Lance".

Anyways, I see your points, and it could totally be directing/acting choices.  I really don't have all the elements to make an argument, it was just based on what I've read online. Maybe after I'll watch the episode Iìll have a clearer picture.

[wonderwall]

OK, not so much a matter of writing but of context, then? I didn't mean that the writers want her to be unlikeable, but what seems to be going on is that the Laurel who was on Flash was not the same that is on Arrow. So if they basically told the actress "ignore what's going on in your show and just have fun", and she did act differently, I don't see it as "she fits better there than on Arrow" but rather as "oh, she looks like Laurel Lance, she's supposed to be Laure Lance, but she's not really Laurel Lance".

Anyways, I see your points, and it could totally be directing/acting choices.  I really don't have all the elements to make an argument, it was just based on what I've read online. Maybe after I'll watch the episode Iìll have a clearer picture.

 

I guess in a sense you're right. In the end, it's a character problem and not an issue about where she fits better. I think that when KC has more fun Laurel tends to fare better, but apparently SA said that KC is always so serious on Arrow which is why him and DR try to prank her, I wonder why that's the case... 

 

Regardless, I just think that with the character we're getting right now, it's better for Laurel to be in a lighter show. On the other hand, Felicity, although she's been less light this season (which IMO is another reason why this season hasn't been all that great) has a natural lightness to her. The comments she makes (eg. the magical hot tub comment from the preview) add a levity to the show that suits Arrow. I just don't believe that Laurel could add that levity to the show in order to balance it out... Maybe years into the future (like season 7-8? -- god I hope Arrow ends at season 6. Sorry but I think this show has an expiration date and that expiration date is season 6)

 

IDK I guess Laurel has a reason to be broody, but her broodiness would work better on Flash just like how Oliver's broodiness worked better on Flash. They even each other out. Arrow is already broody, adding superfluous drama from characters that don't involve Oliver (like the Lances) just tips the scales a bit, and not in a good way... 

Edited April 22, 2015 by wonderwall

[tarotx]

I think Laurel needs to have her own side kick or a puppy dog boyfriend. One who has oodles of charisma but One who isn't going to take the attention off her. Someone who fills the screen but at the same time leaves room for Laurel to shine.

[nksarmi]

According to AK (I think that was the one), they told her lighten up because she is on the Flash. Just have fun. But that doesn't work in a connected universe. She goes back to Arrow and she isn't going to that girl anymore. She is back to Laurel.

 

Cisco's line about liking Laurel beating up bad guys was played for humor, but the Laurel who beat up bad guys on Arrow was much less heroic. It came across as disturbing as times.

I was concerned when I saw that quote and now that I've seen it play out - its a huge WTF for me.  I could like the Laurel I saw on Flash if they gave her some heroing to do.  I say again, let me see her save a girl from being raped, stop a mugging, etc... I want to SEE her do more of the "I'm the justice you can't run from" crap instead of playing tag along to Oliver.  It doesn't have to take up that much of the show - 2 minutes here and there.  I'm sure they can find the time.

 

Anyway, I blame a lot of the darkness, moodiness of this season on their decision to kill Sara.  It wouldn't work to see a happy Laurel with Sara dead.  But I don't think they needed to kill Sara - in fact, I think this season would have been much better if they didn't. 

[tarotx]

Killing Sara was so pointless.

For Laurel she could have been inspired to train when Sara gave her the jacket. She could have been training with Sara and Nyssa all year. Plus with Ted and everywhere she could get training. She would still not want to be second to her sister.

And all they needed for Quinton's rage was worry for his daughters. He would see all the cuts and bruises And blame Oliver for causing Sara and Laurel's journey into fear and hate and loss and blame The Arrow for the atmosphere of vigilantism In Starling city. He would be acting out like a father who finds out his son in law is abusing his daughter kind of emotion.

Quinton could still call Laurel the Black Canary in anger, but then Sara could comfort Laurel after and they would have chosen that to be Laurel's alias.

And then the sister's would go do their thing separate and together. Their actions would have been lumped together creating the Black Canary legend and legacy.

...(For Ra's to kill Oliver and Oliver to survive? Ra's would attack Thea becuse he would want Malcolm to suffer for the undertaking and casting a bad light on the LOA's reputation. But he woukd have to take on Melcolm and Oliver. Ra's would get a kick out of it And toy with them.

Oliver could say since he shared Thea's blood let him fight to end the blood oath Malcolm and Ra's had. Ra's would accept because he liked to play around with people's hope.

The fight would happen and Oliver killed but saved. Oliver would come back knowing ge needed mire training. Malcolm Oliver and Thea would train together.

Ra's would be Angry because of the prophecy but also because of the blood oath. He would kill Thea and be forced to heal her to get Oliver to accept the fate of the prophecy.)

Edited April 22, 2015 by tarotx

[Oscirus]

I saw Laurel's appearance on Arrow as A) her manipulating Cisco into doing something for her by being nice. It's not like she could demand that he fix her cry. b) Her being happy to finally have a fan of her work. I mean Cisco probably was more a fan of Sara's work but she'll take what she can get. c) A way to finally push a Quentin-Laurel reconciliation. Though, it would be an ultimate eye roll if Joe is the one to be the catalyst for that.

[icandigit]

I mean if folks like Laurel more on the Flash. I'm just saying. Follow the love.

[Menrva]

Damn, can Laurel not get shit on for one episode? She did nothing wrong. She's still a part of the show. It's not the end of the world. I just don't think she needs shade thrown at her every single time she says or does anything.

 

Dead or alive, onscreen or offscreen, she EXISTED, that will likely always be her crime.

 

Yeah so I'm done coming to this particular board for sure. The constant Laurel bashing is completely and utter ridiculous at this point. Felicity didn't go to Laurel to cry on her shoulder. It should not have been DIggle because that was not the point of the scene. The point was LETTING Laurel KNOW what happened and Felicity broke down because the man she loves is gone to her. She would have broke down with anyone. It was a 20 second scene and hurt nothing so everyone getting all panty twisted about it is just stretching to tear down a character for the sake of being catty or petty. It's just tiresome at this point.

 

I need to preface my rant with an apology to anyone reading this, especially fans of Laurel, because I know I'm going to be harsh and I'm sorry.

But I'm so over the poor Laurel, she's so under appreciated and misunderstood. KC is a terrible, terrible actress IMO and the writers and EPs who are supposedly such fans of Laurel/BC should be ashamed of themselves for creating and promoting such an awful character. They undercut her at every opportunity. Sara Lance never should have existed. Especially just to have her murdered in such an undignified way simply for the sake of advancing Laurel's journey.

This is what should have happened from the start:

Chemistry test with SA; cast a good actress in the role of LL.

Dinah Laurel Lance should never have been an attorney. Or she dropped out of law school, or burned out being a public defender or ADA. Laurel, disillusioned with the law, becomes a community organizer. She opens CNRI. She helps teach self-defense classes for women and girls in the Glades because she's already proficient in martial arts since her dad told her when she was a little girl "If you want to date when you're older, you're going to be a black belt." She volunteers in women's shelters/counsels battered women. She starts a community garden, helps run a florist shop that employs non-violent ex-felons and helps them transition back into society. All these things should be in place when Oliver returns to SC in the pilot episode. Whether Laurel chooses to forgive Oliver for the cheating (and there is no sister in this scenario) remains to be seen. She may already be quietly vigilanting when Oliver comes home. This Laurel should be ultimately hopeful, despite the wisecracks that serve to disguise how much she hurts seeing the innocent hurting and abused. She should not be too bitter, she is not selfish and she doesn't beat people up to feed the flames inside her.

This is why KC/LL makes me so mad every time I see her on screen; because we could have had something so much better. And every time I have to see her smug face, it lessens my enjoyment of a show that, despite my bitching, I do enjoy.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Menrva

[tarotx]

I don't think KC is a terrible actress. Just a wrong fit for a BC with a Batman-ed Green Arrow.

Plus the Character they created for her just doesn't ring true for a OTP and trying to get around that has been a mess. You don't forgive a guy cheating with your sister.

I love Sara and she's my BC but you are right, she should never have been created and certainly not made into a kick @ss BC.

[wonderwall]

Honestly, my main issue with Laurel in the last episode was that she was plopped in there like an afterthought just as Felicity was plopped in there in The Magician. The only difference is, is that Laurel hasn't been in the loop or a main part of an episode for episodes 16,17,19,20 and partially in episode 18. It's like they've forgotten about Laurel. This is why it makes me wonder whether the writers actually care for/ like Laurel's character? Because her BC arc was a rushed sloppy mess, then she's forgotten for about 4.5ish episodes and fail to integrate her into the team... 

 

I honestly wish that the writers would go either all in or all out with Laurel. It's weird to see them tread water with her character because it seems like they have no idea what to do with her. It also seems that now that she's BC Laurel has lost all her relevance as a character. She makes the biggest impact as a lawyer but those scenes are few and far in between, and then as BC she's just... there? 

 

IDK The treatment of Laurel has been really strange. 

[Sakura12]

What makes it worse is they killed off characters to give Laurel a storyline and she's still just there like she was when those characters were alive. 

[KenyaJ]

Honestly, my main issue with Laurel in the last episode was that she was plopped in there like an afterthought just as Felicity was plopped in there in The Magician. The only difference is, is that Laurel hasn't been in the loop or a main part of an episode for episodes 16,17,19,20 and partially in episode 18. It's like they've forgotten about Laurel. This is why it makes me wonder whether the writers actually care for/ like Laurel's character? Because her BC arc was a rushed sloppy mess, then she's forgotten for about 4.5ish episodes and fail to integrate her into the team... 

 

I honestly wish that the writers would go either all in or all out with Laurel. It's weird to see them tread water with her character because it seems like they have no idea what to do with her. It also seems that now that she's BC Laurel has lost all her relevance as a character. She makes the biggest impact as a lawyer but those scenes are few and far in between, and then as BC she's just... there? 

 

IDK The treatment of Laurel has been really strange. 

 

I've never been able to figure out whether the writers love her or hate her; based on the writing, it feels like they're stuck with her. Just like last season, they relegated her arc to the midpoint of the season and now that the show has kicked into gear for the home stretch, she's become a spectator. As a non-Laurel fan, I'm certainly not mad that she's been limited to a minute per episode, but it highlights how superfluous her character has become has always been, vis-a-vis Oliver's journey. She's BC now, but it's clear the writers don't have any better idea what to do with her character than they did last season. It's a shame they didn't move her to the spinoff, because I think she would benefit from being removed from Oliver's orbit and given a chance for a character restart/do-over.

[Sakura12]

It is funny that they had no problems including Sara into the mix but are still struggling to include Laurel and she's supposed to be the BC. 

[apinknightmare]

It is funny that they had no problems including Sara into the mix but are still struggling to include Laurel and she's supposed to be the BC.

That's because Sara had a rich, largely unknown backstory to pull from (like Oliver's) that Laurel just doesn't have.

[nksarmi]

I feel like the writers must hate her.  I mean, in my opinion, they have written her in the worst possible manner since season two.  I almost feel sorry for the actress.  But to be honest, she isn't the biggest problem with this show to me and nothing about Laurel would make me stop watching.  I think the storytelling and LoA plot this season has been brutal and killing Sara has to be one of the worst decisions the show has ever made and I will not blame that on the Laurel character.  I want this show to get better and while Laurel is a small part of that - I have much bigger complaints than her or her story.

[FurryFury]

killing Sara has to be one of the worst decisions the show has ever made and I will not blame that on the Laurel character.

 

I will. There was literally no other reason to kill Sara other than to make Laurel BC. Sara could have worked great in a LoA-focused season, and there probably was an easier way to involve Malcolm in all this anyway.

[slayer2]

She was really upset when she thought that Ted had died in the fight with Brick so maybe she did have feelings for him. But we know that she stopped training with him several weeks before she showed up to ask him for help in The Big Fight.

Should this be a fic? Laurel and Ted Grant get close, bedmates close, but as Laurel realizes she wants to be the Black Canary and put on her sister's mantel, she knows that Ted would not approve and so she engineers a break-up, only to realize she needs his help in the fight. (Cue all the Laurel emotions.)

Did he die? He just disappeared and no one said anything ever again.

[apinknightmare]

Did he die? He just disappeared and no one said anything ever again.

No, he's still alive per MG.

[slayer2]

No, he's still alive per MG.

Jesus, did he do another twitter explanation? Oy vey,this guy. BTW super-glad he's alive though, but why did his scenes with Laurel stop, granted (no pun intended) I prefer her with Nyssa but we're not really seeing that either.

Edited April 23, 2015 by slayer2

[nksarmi]

I will. There was literally no other reason to kill Sara other than to make Laurel BC. Sara could have worked great in a LoA-focused season, and there probably was an easier way to involve Malcolm in all this anyway.

And there were better ways to make Laurel Black Canary - people have come up with dozens of ways in this thread alone.  That is why I will not blame the Laurel character on killing Sara - that was the writers convoluted f-up.  After all, people talk a lot on these boards about Laurel propping.  What better character could they have used to Laurel prop than Sara?  Who better to train Laurel than Sara?  Who better to name Laurel Black Canary than Sara?   

 

What reason do we have for Laurel going into the field? Anything you want!  Try momma Lance gets killed in front of both Sara and Laurel - Sara tries to fight and stop it, but she can't and Laurel tries to convict the criminal but he goes free thanks to Brick's intervention.  Laurel wants to abandon the law because of what happens, but Sara convinces her to keep with it but still helps her train to deal with the anger she feels over their mom's death and it's a bonding exercise for both sisters.  Or any version of this!  Maybe something happens to Sin and Sara freaks out because she wasn't there to protect her so Laurel starts training so she can carry on Sara's mission in SC when Sara has to be away with the LoA. 

 

No Sara's death is not the fault of Laurel - it was bad and lazy writing and honestly it might be the worst instance of lost potential this show has ever had.