Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[TanyaKay]

I definitely want to see the Deadshot/Diggle angle explored more. This was, IMO, one of the most interesting things to come out of S2. I always thought Deadshot was a really great character in the comics, and I love Arrow's take on him as well. Now that the flashbacks will likely focus on Oliver's connection to Amanda/ARGUS in Hong Kong, I'm expecting more of ARGUS/Amanda/Suicide Squad in the present. Not gonna lie - I'm elated that we're finally off that island lol. My biggest fear? That we'll find out Oliver was sleeping with Amanda at some point (please show, DO NOT do this!)

 

No one mortal gets to sleep with The Wall .... she shows affection to the processors that Felicity was salivating over ...

Oliver Queen is no more than a blip on Amanda Waller's radar.

[BkWurm1]

I can see Waller "showing affection" to Oliver in order to manipulate him to do something or mess with his mind. 

[TanyaKay]

I can see Waller "showing affection" to Oliver in order to manipulate him to do something or mess with his mind. 

 

I can only see Amanda treating Oliver like a dog in training ... sit, run, fetch and repeat ... I mean she is the WALL and he was the old Ollie with really bad hair!

[Password]

I know the EPs said they didn't know if Isabel was going to be good or bad but I don't think I could have accepted her ending up good after how she was presented in the first half of s2.  (I took a Miss Marple-like dislike to her.) No matter what they did to try to fix her because I never would have bought her as being a good guy after the way she treated Oliver, Felicity and Moira.  Like Helena, the character was broken long before Oliver met her.  Why is Oliver so attracted to these sociopathic women?

 

An excellent question. It must have something to do with him thinking these are the kinds of women he deserves.  What's that saying "We only love who we think we deserve." Though he may not have loved these women he certainly seems to think they're where he gets his "lovin'" from. He tends to go for "strong" women who we really see are very emotionally unstable. His feelings for Felicity, if he has any, are probably in a safe box, far away from his Felicity box, and never the twane shall meet. Or so he hopes.

 

 

With Isabel, I think she was hurt that someone who she thinks so highly of would stoop to having sex with Isabel.  With Sara, she was conflicted because she liked Sara but I don't see how she wouldn't be at least a bit hurt that Oliver chose Sara instead of herself.  Especially since it nullified that speech of not being able to be with someone he really cared about because it was obvious he cared about Sara.  Who wouldn't be hurt to find out that the line the guy gave you to just be friends was a lie?

 

I'm so with you on this @statsgirl. Even though she didn't act all hurt and jealous she still would've been hurt to find out actually you know he can be with someone, just not her. That's why that line irks me so much because not 2 or 3 months later, he's with someone he obviously cares about, and SA says it's because Sara can take care of herself. I'm like whaaaaa? When did that stipulation step into the picture?

Edited July 1, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[apinknightmare]

I don't think Felicity would be hurt to find out "it's better to not be with someone I could really care about," was just a line, because I honestly don't think she even considered that Oliver could be talking about HER when he said it. I think the only time she ever even thought it was possible was when he told her he loved her, which she now thinks was a lie.

That's in-show logic though. Story-wise, these writers need to start learning how to plan better, because if he hooks up with someone again, they're going to have to be really careful with how they deal with that (if it's more than a one-night stand), otherwise Oliver's going to come off not looking so good (again).

[icandigit]

 

he's with someone he obviously cares about, and SA says it's because Sara can take care of herself. I'm like whaaaaa? When did that stipulation step into the picture?

Probably another writer misstep. But, its totally an Oliver thing to do.

[Password]

That just makes me somewhat bitter.

[pootlus]

That's in-show logic though. Story-wise, these writers need to start learning how to plan better, because if he hooks up with someone again, they're going to have to be really careful with how they deal with that (if it's more than a one-night stand), otherwise Oliver's going to come off not looking so good (again).

 

They could get around it by only having him hook up in the past (flashbacks). It would still have the requisite amount of Oliver's Magic Penis but avoid the whole "But if he really loved Felicity why is he banging someone else?" hand-wringing that would inevitably dominate show discussion (when, as we all know, it should be about abs).

 

I think Oliver did come to a bit of a revelation about his own feelings during the finale - hopefully they follow through with it in S3.

[slayer2]

I can only see Amanda treating Oliver like a dog in training ... sit, run, fetch and repeat ... I mean she is the WALL and he was the old Ollie with really bad hair!

Hahaha! This is very true. I reckon I'd quite like to see the bad haired Ollie playing fetch. Hopefully she'll teach him Mandarin while giving him a damn haircut. (Harkening to that gorgeous Skyfall scene).

[SmallScreenDiva]

He's still not my favorite character on the show. Some people may like unlikeable protagonists but I usually have a point where I stop caring about them as a person. When I hit that point it won't matter if he's saving the city or not. So yes, for me it matters how he treats ALL the people in his life, romantic or not.

 

The writers have to really be careful about how they want Oliver to come off during his hero journey. Yes, he will fail, he will do things I will not as a viewer approve of. But he can't become truly unlikable. I remember after "Heir to the Demon" came out and EPs and cast members were doing what I saw as damage control, Stephen Amell tried to explain Oliver's hookup with Sara. And he said something about people being flawed. Sure, I get that. I like flawed characters, too. But when Oliver keeps doing stupid things like hooking up with an ex-girlfriend while she and his best friend were on "a break," choosing to break his promise to Diggle about helping him with Deadshot to help Laurel, hooking up with with ex-girlfriend's sister AGAIN, the lies and hypocrisy with his mother and sister, etc. ... Well, there will come a time — and I think it's sooner than this show thinks — when I will no longer care about Oliver as a person. I will no longer be invested in his journey. And then I'll stop watching.

[Password]

The writers have to really be careful about how they want Oliver to come off during his hero journey. Yes, he will fail, he will do things I will not as a viewer approve of. But he can't become truly unlikable...Well, there will come a time — and I think it's sooner than this show thinks — when I will no longer care about Oliver as a person. I will no longer be invested in his journey. And then I'll stop watching.

 

I think Oliver's growth as a person is even more important than to becoming a hero outside of Oliver Queen because it directly affects how he does his work. In his personal life, Oliver no longer wanted to be a killer to honour Tommy's memory, so he changed his ways in s2. Arrow, IMO isn't just about him turning into the Green Arrow whom is a hero, but changing his ways from playboy billionaire to someone who cares for people outside of himself. I wouldn't care about Oliver if everything is about him being a hero, but I am invested in Oliver Queen trying to be a better person and make his city better.

 

That's why for me this season will be very important for Oliver's personal growth. They threw a whole lot of ugly at Oliver during the second half of s2 to the point of me not caring whether or not Slade kicked his ass. And it wasn't his hero side, but his personal life. Oliver as the Arrow has better morals than Oliver personally.

[apinknightmare]

From the Spoilers thread (no spoilers):

 

Agreed. I couldn't give fucks whether Olicity, Lauriver or anybody crash and burn at the end of the day as long as he handles this new onslaught of heroes and baddies the right way. I'm far more concerned about how well he'll harness Roy's possibly recurring Mirakuruness then Olicity or any relationship (except maybe Huntress) as it pertains to his superhero-ship.

 

 

It's not just about ships though. This show (and Oliver himself) has deemed him a hero simply because he managed to defeat a few enemies without killing them. For me, becoming a hero includes more threads of his moral fiber than just the ones that keep him from killing people. He needs to learn how to make better decisions (especially since some of his terrible decisions in his personal life come back to haunt him as the Arrow), become a better mentor, do the right thing even when it's difficult, and not be shitty to the people he says he cares about. So shipping-wise, whatever happens, happens. He just needs to be smarter in the way he goes about all his relationships, especially the one with Felicity considering he leans on her as Arrow, too. Considering this season is supposed to be about Oliver the person, hopefully he's starting on that part of his journey soon.

Edited July 24, 2014 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

But when Oliver keeps doing stupid things like hooking up with an ex-girlfriend while she and his best friend were on "a break," choosing to break his promise to Diggle about helping him with Deadshot to help Laurel, hooking up with with ex-girlfriend's sister AGAIN, the lies and hypocrisy with his mother and sister, etc. ... Well, there will come a time — and I think it's sooner than this show thinks — when I will no longer care about Oliver as a person. I will no longer be invested in his journey. And then I'll stop watching.

 

There's also the fact that this show makes it VERY CLEAR when Oliver is screwing up by design -- there are consequences, serious ones. Oliver broke his promise to Diggle to help Laurel -- Diggle quit, and Oliver had to apologize. Oliver slept with Laurel -- Tommy died, and Oliver felt so guilty he ran away to a place he considered hell. Oliver slept with Isabel -- Felicity caught her leaving his room, Oliver found out his father was sleeping with Isabel, and Oliver lost QC. Oliver was super rude to Felicity re: coma!Barry -- then had to grovel and apologize and admit to relying on Felicity and Diggle.

 

The problem is when he does stupid crap by plot contrivance: hooking up with Sara, speechifying to Laurel, the hypocrisy with Moira and Thea -- none of these things are written as Oliver intentionally screwing up. He's being a jerk without the writers even meaning to, which is what I really really REALLY hope they can solve in S3.

 

I'm completely fine with Oliver making mistakes, it's part of the hero journey as much as anything else. What bothers me is when the actual text doesn't even realize he's coming off as an unrelatable douche.

[wingster55]

the hypocrisy with Moira and Thea

 

I think that is written as him screwing up. It lead to Thea's kidnapping, Moira's murder. Thea even said that keeping secrets doesn't help her. 

[Velocity23]

I was side-eying Oliver so much when two vigilantes were watching over officer Lance doing his job. It came of as if your last name is Lance you will get protected. 

[Password]

I think that is written as him screwing up. It lead to Thea's kidnapping, Moira's murder. Thea even said that keeping secrets doesn't help her. 

 

I would agree with you, but even that I don't understand why he didn't tell Thea. What was he protecting her from? Merlyn, he thought, was dead. If Thea found out, which she did, from someone else, it's pretty much the exact same thing with Slade in that the secret betrayed her.

 

For me it was just too much piled one on another. His mistakes came boom boom boom. Like his character went stupid within the space of 4 episodes.

Edited July 24, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[dtissagirl]

I think that is written as him screwing up. It lead to Thea's kidnapping, Moira's murder. Thea even said that keeping secrets doesn't help her. 

 

Sure, there were consequences to Moira and Thea. But there hasn't been awareness in Oliver yet that his lying to them was the wrong thing to do. He believes he was protecting them, so until he realizes that lying as a form of protection is not the way to go, there's no growth for Oliver himself.

 

I do hope Thea's storyline in S3 might enlighten Oliver about this. He thinks she skipped town before the big finale fight, and he has no idea Malcolm is alive, so in a sense he's the one being lied to. And it also helps that there isn't anyone left in his life that he has to lie to as a form of protection anymore anyway.

Edited July 24, 2014 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

I would agree with you, but even that I don't understand why he didn't tell Thea. What was he protecting her from? Merlyn, he thought, was dead. If Thea found out, which she did, from someone else, it's pretty much the exact same thing with Slade in that the secret betrayed her.

 

For me it was just too much piled one on another. His mistakes came boom boom boom. Like his character went stupid within the space of 4 episodes.

 

It's because the writers of this show have the horrible habit of writing for plot instead of character.

[Password]

Is anyone here starting to feel for Oliver Queen? I normally have bad things to say about him because of his foolishness in the second half of season 2, but it's starting to feel like this man has no "win" in his life. Like he can't catch a break if he paid for it with his pre-bankrupt billionaire money.

I know this is meant to be the season for Identity but I really hope it's the season where they don't continually take dumps on his life. I say this knowing bad things will happen in the premiere but damn.

Edited July 28, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[tv echo]

I've been watching the comic con interviews and there were two things that SA said that really struck me.  In one interview (SDCC Arrow panel or DC WB panel), someone asked him if Oliver was going to be the sarcastic Oliver Queen of the comics.  SA answered something like Oliver's character has to change over the course of the series - he can't start off as a cartoon character and remain static.  It's about a journey - his character changes from pre-island Oliver to vigilante to Arrow and eventually to Green Arrow.  In another interview (Nerd HQ), SA said that he doesn't care if you love or hate Oliver, as long as you aren't indifferent.

 

So if Oliver is going to be a realistic, three-dimensional character, then he'll do stupid things, learn from his mistakes, and evolve into a better human being.

Edited July 28, 2014 by tv echo

[doesntworkonwood]

I consider Oliver a very nuanced character, and definitely someone who has the potential to grow into a very likable, heroic guy. For the most part, I think that Oliver doesn't become unlikable when he does stupid things, he becomes unlikable when he does stupid things and there aren't any consequences. 

[icandigit]

I was so happy he said that about evolving into the Green Arrow of the comics. i was sick of people saying he was different from the sarcastic Oliver in the comics. I wanted to go around to them and tell them, you don't know that. I felt like until the last season of the show they couldn't say that.

[Carrie Ann]

I consider Oliver a very nuanced character, and definitely someone who has the potential to grow into a very likable, heroic guy. For the most part, I think that Oliver doesn't become unlikable when he does stupid things, he becomes unlikable when he does stupid things and there aren't any consequences. 

 

I can see that perspective, but I guess I just feel like ALL he has are consequences. He's punished for his mistakes more than just about anyone I've ever seen, in big ways and small ways. So far, from my perspective, the show has been on the "right" side in terms of judging Oliver for his bad decisions. I know some people got fed up with Oliver this season, but for me, him making mistakes just makes me want to hug him a little tighter. :)

 

But what you say is definitely true: part of what I love about him is that he's on a journey. The most important thing isn't that he makes all the right decisions or is charming and lovable all the time--the most important thing is that people continue to root for him. Whether that always means rooting for his plans to work isn't as important to me as rooting for him to become better as a human and a hero, and to be happy.

 

He's trying to do the right thing and become a hero, but when this series started, he didn't even think the latter was a possibility. Now it sounds like he's going to try to figure out whether he can have a full life--again, even during Season 2, I don't think he believed he deserved a full life. I like to see that kind of growth out of my heroes.

[catrox14]

May I introduce you to Dean Winchester for punished characters? Hee. But I get what you mean. Oliver feels he's so responsible for so many things that he's not always responsible for necessarily. I'm looking forward to what happens to Oliver

Edited July 29, 2014 by catrox14

[icandigit]

http://ladychaos83.tumblr.com/post/94449331785/stephen-amell-oliver-queen-and-ptsd

 

A write up someone did on Oliver and PTSD. Think I'm just still in search of someone who thought SA did a solid job at the beginning of season 1 with Oliver. It's cold and lonely out here by myself.

[willpwr]

For what it's worth, I think he did a solid job, too.

[dtissagirl]

http://ladychaos83.tumblr.com/post/94449331785/stephen-amell-oliver-queen-and-ptsd

 

A write up someone did on Oliver and PTSD. Think I'm just still in search of someone who thought SA did a solid job at the beginning of season 1 with Oliver. It's cold and lonely out here by myself.

While this is not me agreeing with you [sorry! :)], I kind of have a different view on the wooden thing people say about Amell in S1: I don't think he was wooden, I think he was kind of unconvincing at playing wooden, because he overdid it. I totally agree that Oliver was PTSDing badly, and the while emotionally crippled/completely stoic blank face-robot arms thing was done on purpose... I just don't think Amell was much successful at it in the first few episodes. I kinda could see past Oliver and see him *playing* wooden, if you know what I mean? Probably because he's not expressionless all in real life, even. He toned it down as the season went, though, and by mid-S1 I was't seeing the acting instead of the story anymore.

But I never thought for a second he was a wooden actor because from the pilot, the flashbacks clearly showed him playing a completely different version of Oliver that was all BUT stoic.

[dtissagirl]

It's not just Oliver. All superheroes tend to be morons about the "I can't tell them who I am because it will put them into danger" thing. Look at Superman. He refused to tell Lois for the longest time, which never worked since she was always running headlong into trouble he had to save her from anyway. Mary Jane had a bad habit of catching the eye of whatever villain Spider-Man was fighting. It was kind of nuts for Oliver not to at least warn his mom and Thea about Slade once the guy showed up at their frigging house though. To keep on topic for this thread, it wouldn't really have mattered if he told Laurel the truth or not, she probably would have ignored him and run right into Slade's clutches anyway.

I agree that it's the superhero trope of secret identities, but I think at least in season 1, Oliver had an actual plan: nobody who knew him before the island could know his secret because he needed those people to see him as the same old billionaire playboy, now night-club owner! His family, Tommy, Laurel, they all had to have plausible deniability in the event of anyone thinking Oliver = the Hood. They'd go "of course not, he sleeps all day and manages a club all night, SCOFF, no way he's a vigilante!"

Of course, then the writers realized how hard it was to write these characters when they weren't in on the secret, so they trashed that plan, and Tommy found out. And then the plan failed some more because the villains turned out to be people who knew *Oliver* -- first Malcolm, and then Slade. So keeping people in the dark ended up making Oliver look stupid AND put them in danger of crazy wacky dudes retaliating by kidnapping sisters and ex-girlfriends, and killing mothers.

[catrox14]

I think he did a solid job.

[BkWurm1]

When I watched him the first time around I had complaints but on my second viewing, I was surprised at how much nuance he packs into his early performances.   I no longer think he was stiff or wooden. 

Edited August 19, 2014 by BkWurm1

[AustenChick]

I actually think SA did a great job in season one. I think he just had to grow into the role. I especially liked his work in Betrayal when Felicity gives Ollie the notebook Walter gave her. SA gives a really subtle face shift at looking shocked and heartbroken while pretending to Felicity like he's never seen the book before.

[wonderwall]

The problem I have with people complaining that Stephen plays Oliver as 'stiff' is that Oliver is supposed to be stiff. It's not that Stephen is a stiff actor, it's that he truly understands the trauma Oliver has gone through. Honestly, after everything that Oliver has been through, it would be unbelievable if he was less than stiff. 

 

However, I'm currently doing a rewatch and am on season 2, you can see that there's a great difference between Oliver now and Oliver then. Oliver looks a lot more relaxed and I think that, that has to do with the fact that he has one kick-ass team. He's a little more playful and a little less dead in the eyes. 

 

But what I hate the most is when shippers blame SA for not having any chemistry with KC because he's "such a stiff actor". In fact, this is quite false. Every single time I see that argument I tend to roll my eyes. pardon my rudeness :/ 

Edited August 19, 2014 by wonderwall

[NumberCruncher]

It is a false argument, @wonderwall.  It's not Stephen's fault--he's merely playing Oliver Queen as a broken individual who went through a hellish nightmare for 5 years.  There's nothing to celebrate there.  I would expect Oliver to be rather pensive and aloof.  That's part of the reason why Oliver and Laurel as characters didn't have chemistry because she was constantly piling on him and he was acting numb to it rather than allowing himself to feel anything.  On the other hand, Oliver and Felicity do work together as characters--her humor lightens/softens him up a bit.

Edited August 19, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[KenyaJ]

But what I hate the most is when shippers blame SA for not having any chemistry with KC because he's "such a stiff actor". In fact, this is quite false. Every single time I see that argument I tend to roll my eyes. pardon my rudeness :/ 

 

If that's the case, why did he spark with every other major actor on the show? So much so that people were even shipping him with his sister? That dog won't hunt.

[wingster55]

I can't blame chemistry on any actor. I've always believed that it can't be manufactured at all. It's just there.

It also has nothing to do with acting really.

[KirkB]

I can't blame chemistry on any actor. I've always believed that it can't be manufactured at all. It's just there.

It also has nothing to do with acting really.

 

  That's what I've always thought. You can throw all the actors together you want but you can't manufacture chemistry, it's either there or it isn't. Now I also think a show can work perfectly find without it unless you're talking about a romantic pairing. No matter how good the actors are, if they don't click it's unlikely any audience is going to connect with the pairing. IMO Stephen and Katie don't.

Edited August 21, 2014 by KirkB

[AustenChick]

Has anyone noticed that each season Oliver has dedicated his mission in relation to a person? Season 1: He was avenging for his father's sins. Season 2: Rededicating his mission for Tommy and trying not to be a killer. It will be interesting where Season 3 will take him.

[BkWurm1]

Searching for his humanity for Felicity?

[wonderwall]

Felicity will definitely be central to his development this season! I'm thinking that his season long mission will be figuring out whether he can be the vigilante and Oliver Queen at the same time.

[apinknightmare]

Has anyone noticed that each season Oliver has dedicated his mission in relation to a person? Season 1: He was avenging for his father's sins. Season 2: Rededicating his mission for Tommy and trying not to be a killer. It will be interesting where Season 3 will take him.

 

His monologue will probably mention him being a hero, and I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned Felicity helping him find another way.

[Password]

His monologue will probably mention him being a hero, and I wouldn't be surprised if HE MENTIONED FELICITY HELPING HIM FIND ANOTHER WAY.

In his monologue? Oh I would die!!!!!

[BkWurm1]

Maybe crediting Team Arrow?

[apinknightmare]

In his monologue? Oh I would die!!!!!

 

The only reason I even entertain that idea is because the producers said that his feelings for Felicity are part of his arc for the season, so I don't think they'd shy away from going there in the monologue. Although watch them do away with the "My name is Oliver Queen" thing entirely, haha.

[quarks]

"My name is Oliver Queen. For two years I have been lying to you, my loyal audience, about where I was for the last five years. It wasn't stranded on a not at all deserted island. To help you forget that, I can't be the complete liar I once was. I have to be someone else. Something else.  Someone who does a lot of really awesome motorcycle stunts and shoots exploding arrows and...uh. Wait. Can we just start the show now?"

[willpwr]

I hope he mentions Moira and Thea. They are essential to his humanity and he pretty much lost them both.

Edited August 29, 2014 by willpwr

[writersblock51]

I think SA did a solid job in Season 1, even before rewatching - I'd only seen him before, once, on episodes of "Hung" and he did fine there.  I had faith he could act besides looking good. 

 

Of course, I just had to re-write what I'd written since the terms 'wooden' and 'stiff' carry a LOT more meaning now if you bring his "Hung" role into it... sheeeesh

 

As for his growth (oh Lord) in Season 3, I hope we SEE it more than hear about it in a monologue. (and by 'it' I mean his personality, OH MY GOD). And I hope Oliver talks with the people who are part of his search for his humanity.  I think he knows well enough by now that he's not alone, nor should he be for long.  I agree about Moira & Thea, too.  Hopefully he talks about them with someone. Diggle and Felicity are the obvious picks for me, but I can see him talking to Quentin at some point, too.  They have a lot more in common than they realize.

 

OK, I need to pull my brain out of the shallow end of the pool now.

Edited August 29, 2014 by writersblock51

[Velocity23]

Is Oliver aware yet that he lost Thea? Isn't he under the impression she is somewhere in Europe trying to recover from her mothers death? 

[writersblock51]

I don't think he knows that Thea is NOT backpacking through Europe/similar. I hope Roy - who does know she doing anything else but that - and he have a long talk. Or a quick chat. I don't care which but Oliver being the dark about Thea's whereabouts is problematic to me, especially since Roy knows more.

 

Then again, maybe that conflict between Oliver and Roy will be yet 1 more thing for them to navigate this season.

[Velocity23]

They did say at comic con, that things between Roy and Oliver are good, but that Roy is keeping the issue with Thea from him. So i am expecting at least a big discussion between Roy and Oliver. 

[writersblock51]

Velocity23, I'd forgotten that - ok, thanks.  Yay. More conflict about Thea for those two.