Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[tarotx]

I'm hoping EBR mentioning Therapy in one of her interviews means that is on the table for Oliver. He needs it bad. 

[kismet]

Since the season started out with Diggle (who is often the writers mouthpiece) stating that Oliver does not know how to love. I eagerly await the moment when someone finally says in 423;

 

 

I'm just trying to figure out who is going to be Mrs. Potts. Probably MM is some weird last paternal moment before he disappears to pursue his evil plans.

[KirkB]

I get why Stephen might have been excited to play a father this season, but the thing is he really never did. He found out he was a father, and did get to interact (one time that we actually saw) on screen with the kid, but while he was the kid's father he wasn't there as that, he was there as "mommy's friend". The kid doesn't know the strange guy who showed up and wanted to play with him was his father. We never got to see Oliver being a father, except in the literal sense.

[bijoux]

I know! He didn't even get to say hi to the kid this episode. No, hey, Oliver, it's so nice that you came to see me from William at the police station.

[kismet]

But he got to shout the words MY SSOOOOONNNN at a whole special decibel!!! You guys are totally not giving that enough credit.... :)

[kismet]

So this is an off the cuff theory about SA and his acting choices regarding the BMD, especially the boob cuddle and distant is my pizza late moment in the break-up.

 

I believe that the BMD storyline was very special and close to SA because it hit upon fatherhood (or at least in theory). The show completely dropped the fatherhood angle, but still I think that appealed to SA. Also, this storyline was promoted by SA to first the writers and then the audience. So SA's ego was highly invested in the secret kid storyline. In theory, it was supposed to show a new and different side to OQ, it was going spur great character moments, bring some drama, etc.

 

Therefore, I believe that because this storyline was so near and dear to SA, his own personality began to bleed into the scenes. I remember when 401 aired and SA was talking closer to his normal voice and it really threw me because at times it felt like I was not watching OQ, rather I was watching SA. During parts of this BMD debacle, I felt something similar. Now I do not know SA, however, some of his social media posts have lead me to believe that he can be a little douchey at times. Overall he seems like a genuinely funny, nice guy but sometimes he seems to be a little bit of a juvenile block-headed cliched toolish fratboy. And while most of the time, I think he keeps that tool part of him in check, every now and then it gets out in real life.

 

And in the the case of the BMD, I think it got out in real life during his interviews. But more importantly, it got out during his some of his scenes. It's hard to say whether they were just bad acting choices. Or if his own personality and some its flaws were bleeding into the scenes. So when I see the boob cuddle, it feels more like I am watching SA interact with FS. Because he seems like the kinda of guy to solve an emotional crises with a boob cuddle.

 

And during the distant look, I half expected SA to yell cut and question why are they ruining his big emotional moment with some unnecessary plot points like a "useless" break-up? On top of that they then tried to one up his emotional moment by having FS's big emotional moment of paralysis to walking perfectly out of the scene. I know why they needed to have the break-up when they did because of the timeline and show length. I can guess why they went cheesy with the miracle walking. But all of it combined really did blow a hole right through the only truly emotional character moment of the secret kid storyline and OQ's lost opportunity for fatherhood. If the show had had more time, I wish they could have found more time to let those moments breath independently and not consolidate them all.

[dtissagirl]

There are a bunch of little moments where I'm bothered by Steve's acting choices, but I can handwave them because I buy the characterizattion, and the storyline.

I never ever enjoy his comic timing [it's extremely too slow], but I'm resigned to this Oliver Queen not knowing how to crack a joke. Dad jokes fit him anyway. I sometimes think he looks exasperated/impatient when other actors have long blocks of text to deliver, but I can buy it as Oliver being the ultimate get-to-the-point guy.

But I don't buy the characterization of Oliver as a father in anyway, because they didn't show it to me. And I wish I could erase the secret kid and lie storlyine from my brain [with acid], so his choice of relieved boob-cuddling, and inconvenienced by Felicity breaking up with him go with the bzuuuuhh feelings I have for the entire hot mess. It makes no sense.

Actually, I can fanwank the inconvenienced look as resigned to be dumped. The one thing that bothered me more in that scene was when he asked Felicity how much did she hear of his letter, and it kinda sounded to me like he resented her listening in. [Disclaimer: I only watched that scene the one time.] And that was the moment I wanted to bitchslap him hardcore, even before Felicity said anything.

Edited March 4, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Password]

I think concerning the baby mama drama there are two times I felt SA leaked into Oliver Queen.

The first was way back in season 2 when he told Moira the baby was lost. And the second time is during his 15 minute monologue to William.

I know he seems to love his baby A LOT (SA that is) so I can definitely understand why he would feel like channelling that emotion into Oliver Queen. But I don't agree with it. Added to the fact that we barely saw him interact with William and BE a father I found it really difficult to relate to his emotional loss during the speech.

Then his barely there reaction to Felicity leaving him...it left me cold. I guess you could say he was already emotionally drained but...mm no. I needed more from the scene. And I'll need more from Oliver moving forward.

[looptab]

when he asked Felicity how much did she hear of his letter, and it kinda sounded to me like he resented her listening in. [Disclaimer: I only watched that scene the one time.] And that was the moment I wanted to bitchslap him hardcore, even before Felicity said anything.

God, that bothered me so much! Bad acting choice coupled with odd line. Was the purpose there to convey that Oliver wasn't going to tell her about this?

[bijoux]

So when I see the boob cuddle, it feels more like I am watching SA interact with FS. Because he seems like the kinda of guy to solve an emotional crises with a boob cuddle.

 

This honestly made me laugh out loud. Thanks for that.

 

I think concerning the baby mama drama there are two times I felt SA leaked into Oliver Queen.

The first was way back in season 2 when he told Moira the baby was lost. And the second time is during his 15 minute monologue to William.

 

I never saw that as breaking character. I suppose because I liked that it gave Ollie an unexpected depth and a chance to reflect beyond instant gratification.

 

Actually, I can fanwank the inconvenienced look as resigned to be dumped. The one thing that bothered me more in that scene was when he asked Felicity how much did she hear of his letter, and it kinda sounded to me like he resented her listening in. [Disclaimer: I only watched that scene the one time.] And that was the moment I wanted to bitchslap him hardcore, even before Felicity said anything.

 

I also watched it once, but didn't read it as resentment. Now I'm afraid to rewatch and find out I was wrong.

[doesntworkonwood]

I do think it's really weird that Amell kept touting BMD as a fatherhood storyline, when he literally only interacts with Demon Spawn twice (and one of those times was as GA so...). I've no idea how that translated into 'fatherhood' to SA's mind, especially because Oliver literally refers to himself as a 'biological father', so I'm not sure if he really believes in what he said or he was just trying (and failing) to calm already pissed off fans. 

 

The biggest problem I had with that scene though, was the fact that we saw more emotion from him from the ending of a 7(?) episode relationship, than the ending of a 4 year relationship. As a viewer that really left me cold, because it's the 4 year relationship that I'm most invested in, and since the entire BMD was done purely for the break up, it's annoying that we didn't get a satisfying resolution to it. I don't understand why SA played it that way, but I don't think it's fair to fans and I don't get why a) SA didn't think to do anything about it and b) why the director didn't do anything about it. Essentially the scene could have had exactly the same dialogue, but better directing and more emotive acting (from both parties) could have made it like ten times better.

[looptab]

I guess we had to appreciate the father's struggle when he had a case of dead eyes while confronting Darhk the first time./sarcasm/

[dtissagirl]

God, that bothered me so much! Bad acting choice coupled with odd line. Was the purpose there to convey that Oliver wasn't going to tell her about this?

 

I have no idea what they were trying to convey, but the moment he asked "how much did you hear", even before Felicity replied, I was already wondering why wouldn't Felicity ALREADY KNOW that he was recording a letter to his son. What possible reason could Oliver have to not want her to know about it?

 

And the only answer that makes sense to me is he was already distancing himself from her, keeping her separated from the fallout of the kidnapping + sending the kid away without talking to her, self-sabotage style, because he already knew he was gonna get dumped. So why unburden his feelings on someone who was gonna bail on him, amirite?

 

Grr. This storyline, man. What a burning pile of stinking poo.

[looptab]

Instead I started wondering why he was surprised she was there, since 1) that was her house, 2) she was on a wheelchair - am I supposed to infer she was hiding behind the kitchen counter the whole time, and he didn't notice her? has she entered the loft ninja-style, without him realizing it? has she entered the loft like a normal person, but he was so busy manpaining that he didn't realize it?*  Endless questions. But yeah, bottom-line was, why wouldn't she know about that? And the implied "were you eavesdropping?" made me want to throw things.

It's all so idiotic that my attention wasn't even with the characters and what was happening to them.

 

*This could have been avoided if he had recorded his message sitting on the couch. Director's fail.

Edited March 5, 2016 by looptab

[statsgirl]

I got the feeling that SA was playing it as Oliver knowing that the chickens had come home to roost about William and Felicity was going to leave him.  "How much did you hear?" was another way of asking how much he was going to have to explain to her about sending William away or did she already know.  He didn't even try to fight for her, just as he didn't try to visit her in the hospital.

 

They really do like writing Oliver as an idiot.

[kismet]

Well in many ways they have screwed themselves over. Because even with the littlest amount of fight and both would concede to the fact that they love each other too much and that is more powerful than most of the fights they have. And anyone with that level of love would fight for each other and work through their issues. They basically built such a solid foundation for their relationship that the writers either really need to hit them with some hard challenges (which they haven't been able to) or throw some pretty weak tosses that are easily undone because the premise is so flimsy. So OQ/SA really have to underact because if he showed up at all in some of those scenes it would ruin the poorly designed plot.

[rtalive]

I got the feeling that SA was playing it as Oliver knowing that the chickens had come home to roost about William and Felicity was going to leave him.  "How much did you hear?" was another way of asking how much he was going to have to explain to her about sending William away or did she already know.  He didn't even try to fight for her, just as he didn't try to visit her in the hospital.

 

They really do like writing Oliver as an idiot.

How exactly do you fight for someone who leaves you because of a choice you make. He did apologized in the next episode and said he will change, but Felicity still walked away. The thing is she does not believe in him anymore. I think she just realized that she made a mistake and that he was never the man for her. I don't think they are getting back together. I really think  that if you walk away from someone, because of the reasons they gave her, it means you clearly want to move on and find something else. May she loved him for a while, but you know - love is blindness. 

[statsgirl]

How exactly do you fight for someone who leaves you because of a choice you make.

Someone leaves you because of a choice you made or a choice they made. Or an evil third person forces it. I think that's all the options.

 

Usually when someone says "that's it, I'm done", it's because of a pattern that keeps repeating and that the other person doesn't think is gong to end.  He did apologize and say he was going to change but he's said it before and not changed a number of times.

 

Felicity was clear -- she loves Oliver but she cannot live with him always shutting her out of decisions that a partner should be included in. She showed that she still loves him when he was attacked by robot bees, and again when Laurel was in the hospital and she immediately went to hug Oliver.

 

So if he really does want her, the ball is in his court.  He needs to prove to her that he is willing to let her be involved in those decisions which should include one's partner.  My guess is that she'll be back with the team soon enough now that they're going to go after Laurel's killer so he'll be working with her again. Then he'll have the opportunity to show her that he can let her in, unlike when he came back from falling off the mountain and decided he needed to work with Malcolm Meryln and refused to listen to her when she said that wasn't a good idea, or when he went undercover with the League of Assassins without telling anyone and made them all think he was really evil and going to kill them with the virus.

 

So he's going to have a good opportunity to prove to her that he has changed and isn't going to go solo any more when the going gets tough.  It's just up to him whether he wants to.

 

ETA:  Oops , I didn't realize the conversation had moved to the Heartaches thread.

Edited April 15, 2016 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

I've been seeing this gifset cropping up regularly for a while now and I can never remember when and where this happened. The background doesn't look familiar.

  

[Guest]

10 hours ago, bijoux said:

I've been seeing this gifset cropping up regularly for a while now and I can never remember when and where this happened. The background doesn't look familiar.

  

I'm not certain but I think that's very early s1 and it's Thea's bedroom. I could be totally wrong!

[kismet]

4 hours ago, Password said:

If Oliver fake died I'd be OK.  But not real death. 

From the other stars thread, agree with @Lady Calypso it was not the thread, maybe this is?

I would prefer No death, just a happy ending. I would not be opposed to a fake death as a compromise between drama & HEA. But for me a fake death doesn't really work, what does he do spend the rest of his days in hiding?. That's not really livng. And honestly, I would be OK with  an actual death on the show. His job is dangerous and people do die. So it could be a fitting series finale. I would be sad, but I don't think it would ruin the show.

I also think that SA is not dumb. If he became a producer, he would find a way to keep the money train possible and his character dying would stop that. Even if he took time away from the show & facilitated a "death", he would make sure there was a way to bring him back if the show was still on without him.

[bijoux]

12 minutes ago, kismet said:

But for me a fake death doesn't really work, what does he do spend the rest of his days in hiding?. That's not really livng.

This is the gist of my issue with this scenario. Oliver's on the path to actually live his life, something that we've been hit over the head with multiple times on the show. Fake dying ends up with him retreating and re-treading again. It might be executed well, but my gut instinct is, Pass.

[Lady Calypso]

I'd love a happy ending for Oliver as well. If there has to be a death, maybe it'll be the death of the Green Arrow, or the death of island!Oliver that will allow Oliver to accept happiness into his life. I mean, we see him getting closer to being a happier man, but there's always something that will hold him back. Maybe letting himself retire as the Green Arrow will do it. Or if they really don't want that, the death of the darkness inside of him. 

I know SA may most likely mean that he actually wants Oliver to die, but I like my idea way more in my head. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I really, really want a happy ending for Arrow because I feel that after everything Oliver has been through and after he fought so much to be a hero and to have a life he deserves to have it. If he didn't it would be too depressing IMO.

I think SA probably meant a real death but since the writers have been copying Nolan I can see them being tempted to use the same ending, even if it wouldn't fit Oliver's story at this point. But I would take that fake death that was still a happy ending over Oliver dying for real.

[tv echo]

12 Oliver Queen images you can’t help but love
June 3, 2016  Nikki Reid 
http://www.purefandom.com/2016/06/03/12-images-oliver-queen-feels/

Quote

Oliver Queen is a complicated guy, who wears many hats … or hoods. He’s a best friend, brother, ex-fiancé, vigilante, and mayor.  Most times we love him. Sometimes we want to kick him in the ass, but there are three elements to his character that are unwavering. He’s strong, sexy, and sensitive. Whether your heart swells, breaks or pounds, here are 12 images of Ollie that are sure to hit you in the feels: ...

 

[kismet]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

12 Oliver Queen images you can’t help but love
June 3, 2016  Nikki Reid 
http://www.purefandom.com/2016/06/03/12-images-oliver-queen-feels/

 

The images are good but the commentary is a little bias. The show needs to bring back the kid, if only to explain in clear understandable language that FS did not walk out of him because he had a son. In fact, she was perfectly fine with him having a son. It was because he shut her out on all angles about the BMD situation.

[Password]

Weird,  people really think it's because of the son? The show was so clear on that. 

[looptab]

But then Diggle said "Because of your son?" "You have a son..something something. Give her time"

I need the reason why she broke up with him to become a running joke like "we were on a break".

[Password]

Well Diggle was obviously on pain meds during that episode because later on he gave Oliver some sour truth tea. However Felicity herself said "I don't care that you have a son". Ain't nothing clearer. 

[looptab]

Oh I know, but selective hearing is a thing in this fandom =)

[kismet]

It's more than just selective hearing. It's writers waffling and refusal to give us legitimate characters' POVs.

Everyone is at mercy to the writers' plotting, so that complicates how things are discussed on the show. And therefore leaves it open for interpretation about what actually happened on the show.

[bijoux]

43 minutes ago, Password said:

Well Diggle was obviously on pain meds during that episode because later on he gave Oliver some sour truth tea. However Felicity herself said "I don't care that you have a son". Ain't nothing clearer. 

Diggle lashed out because he was hurting, so I'm not taking anything he said about the situation at face value. However, Felicity was crystal clear in both timelines and even Oliver told Dig it wasn't about him having a son.

[dtissagirl]

I think this is actually related to the breakneck speed and the lack of letting scenes breathe. These are quiet emotional beats that should have real impact in the audience. Oliver telling Dig it wasn't because of the kid should have been ~A MOMENT~, but they pack so much crap onto the episodes, that a lot of it ends up being an afterthought.

[Which would be solved by getting rid of flashbacks forever and giving the actual story that matters some 5 to 10 extra minutes every week, but that's my hill I'm gonna die on that has nothing to do with the Oliver thread.]

Edited June 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

I think what would've benefited the storyline most would've been if Felicity had actually said, "You could've told me about William. I wouldn't have told anyone," and had the breakup be about a lack of trust rather than a lack of inclusion. I've noticed people get SUPER touchy whenever it's so much as suggested that a non-biological parent should have any involvement in decisions about a child (even though this is 110% ridiculous thinking in a world where we have so many blended families). So instead of hearing, "You're not including me in huge decisions about your life," they hear, "You're not including me in huge decisions about your child," and think it's about the kid, when it's not.

[SmallScreenDiva]

On 6/7/2016 at 3:19 PM, dtissagirl said:

[Which would be solved by getting rid of flashbacks forever and giving the actual story that matters some 5 to 10 extra minutes every week, but that's my hill I'm gonna die on that has nothing to do with the Oliver thread.]

You're not the only one on this hill. I've seen a lot of people on Twitter reiterate the same thing (chief among them, SmoaknArrow). Let the emotional moments breathe. It really affects characterization and Oliver and Felicity suffer because of it more than most it seems. 

[tv echo]

Arrow is supposed to be the story of Oliver Queen's character journey toward becoming a hero, the Green Arrow (I believe). However, being a hero should involve more than whether or not he kills his targets. Yet that is what this season seems to be most focused on when it comes to Oliver's hero journey - but that isn't even consistent.  He has gone from killing as a first resort to not killing at all to sometimes killing and now to killing as a last resort - presumably. Though there was that one guy he killed in 501 just because "no one can know my secret." So really not that much change from his S1 judge-jury-executioner mode. Now, the distinction seems to be between killing criminals (no matter the degree of criminality) and killing innocent civilians (like the Vigilante does). Although Oliver is sometimes back to just capturing criminals and leaving them for the police. See? Confusing.

Even more confusing and contradictory are the other aspects of Oliver's hero journey - that is, Oliver as a man and human being. He has gone from not trusting anyone to trusting a vetted few (Diggle, Felicity), from not trusting his team to trusting his team to not trusting his team to trusting his team, to trusting near strangers (Samantha), and now to trusting complete strangers (Susan). 

In addition, Oliver has gone from immature, cheating boyfriend to sleeping with every eligible woman in sight, then from being good friends with a woman to being in a loving, committed relationship, but then back to deceitful boyfriend, and now he's back to playing the field - but in a way that makes him either a trusting, gullible fool or a cold, calculating manipulator.

Arrow has both regressed Oliver and completely screwed up and contradicted itself when it comes to Oliver's character journey. The only thing that's shown some clear movement is his killing policy (but see contradiction above). But, as I said at the outset, being a hero should involve more than whether or not he kills his targets.

Edited November 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I've always assumed that Arrow was about a hero's journey in the more traditional sense, with Oliver evolving from an emotionally damaged killer to an emotionally balanced hero.

But maybe Arrow is really about a hero's journey in the tragic Shakespearean sense, with Oliver doomed to repeat the same mistakes and self-sabotaging ways until it ultimately leads to his own death.

That's not exactly the show I signed up for or want to see, but it certainly seems to be the show that I'm watching now.

[kismet]

16 hours ago, tv echo said:

I've always assumed that Arrow was about a hero's journey in the more traditional sense, with Oliver evolving from an emotionally damaged killer to an emotionally balanced hero.

But maybe Arrow is really about a hero's journey in the tragic Shakespearean sense, with Oliver doomed to repeat the same mistakes and self-sabotaging ways until it ultimately leads to his own death.

That's not exactly the show I signed up for or want to see, but it certainly seems to be the show that I'm watching now.

I never thought about it that way, but you're onto something with the Shakespearean aspect. I do think he is doomed to repeat his mistakes over and over again, until most likely his death breaks the cycle. I really wish though if this was their intent, they were better about writing it as such. Because its hard to see if his journey is repetitive because of intention on the writer's part, or just their inability and lack of creativity at storytelling.

Either way, I agree that it is not necessarily the show I signed up for or a show I want to see. But it definitely does feel like that is what is going on now.

[statsgirl]

I really don't think that a Tragic Flaw is the writers' intent.  I think it's still Campbell's A Hero's Journey, they just keep repeating the same beats over and over because they don't know how to move on and still keep the narrative going.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I really don't think that a Tragic Flaw is the writers' intent.  I think it's still Campbell's A Hero's Journey, they just keep repeating the same beats over and over because they don't know how to move on and still keep the narrative going.

Bingo!  They know where it's suppposed to end but they don't know how to move his story forward without getting there too soon.  

[lemotomato]

Based on TV precedent, I can't think of single show where the titular hero dies at the end. I don't think the CW is going to break the mold here.

(Well, maybe Sons of Anarchy. But that actually was based on Hamlet.)

Edited February 27, 2017 by lemotomato

[bijoux]

I can think of a few. Breaking Bad and Prison Break off the top of my head. The entire cast of Lost and Six Feet Under, I think. It doesn't mean that I think Arrow was conceived with that type of ending in mind. It might change, but I don't think the show is currently working toward that end.

[Morrigan2575]

BSG killed off Starbuck and Roslin

If Buffy wasn't picked up by UPN, BTVS would have (dare I say should have) ended with Buffy's death

Xena: Warrior Princess ended with Xena's death 

Babylon 5 ended with Sheridan' s death.

I used to think Arrow would end with Oliver's death.  Now, i think the show will end with Oliver faking his death and a new GA taking over protecting SC.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Based on TV precedent, I can't think of single show where the titular hero dies at the end. I don't think the CW is going to break the mold here.

Angel ended with everyone dying basically including Angel. 

I mean he wasn't going to survive a battle against a dragon ."I kinda wanna slay the dragon. Let's go to work" (yes I know about the comics but the TV show ended with them going off to die in battle.

Edited February 27, 2017 by catrox14

[lemotomato]

OK, so Xena, Prison Break, and Breaking Bad. We didn't actually see Angel and crew die, did we? They ran into battle. And BSG, Babylon 5, and LOST were more ensemble shows.

I agree with @Morrigan2575's fake death spec as the ending.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

OK, so Xena, Prison Break, and Breaking Bad. We didn't actually see Angel and crew die, did we? They ran into battle. And BSG, Babylon 5, and LOST were more ensemble shows.

I agree with @Morrigan2575's fake death spec as the ending.

We didn't see them die, but IMO that final scene where they were all pretty well not planning to live and would die fighting , was as good as watching Angel actually die.  IMO it wasn't ambiguous.  If they ended Arrow that way with Oliver going off to die in battle, but we don't see it? I'd consider him dead.

[bijoux]

Sadly, I think the fake death scenario is plausible. It's just not what I want to see here, because I don't think it tracka with the narrative of Oliver learning to be a real boy, one who already was "dead" and then was not really living for a while there even after coming back home. So for me, the right track would be him finall living in both his skins, or alternatively "killing" GA and still be around as Oliver. it certainly doesn't mean that's how it will play out, though.

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

We didn't see them die, but IMO that final scene where they were all pretty well not planning to live and would die fighting , was as good as watching Angel actually die.  IMO it wasn't ambiguous.  If they ended Arrow that way with Oliver going off to die in battle, but we don't see it? I'd consider him dead.

But then there was a comic series that's set after the finale that's considered to be canon/a pseudo season 6.

[statsgirl]

The biggest suggestion to me is because TDK did it.

Babylon5 was always going to end with Sheridan's death 20 years in the future so that death seemed SOP.

[catrox14]

Just now, lemotomato said:

But then there was a comic series that's set after the finale that's considered to be canon/a pseudo season 6.

Which I mentioned in my original comment. AFAIK they weren't intended to be a true s6. Regardless, for many Angel viewers the story of Angel ended with the TV show and they all died.