Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[dtissagirl]

I like your interpretation way better than mine, so I'll take it. :)

 

And I do get that Oliver is completely terrified of losing Felicity, but then... this has to somehow be turned into a story arc for him. Because it REALLY isn't healthy for him or for Felicity, if she's his only lifeline like this. Character development here is Oliver figuring out that while it might suck balls to live without being with Felicity, that he can do it *well*, and not whatever the hell it was he was doing last season.

 

I just don't know if I trust these writers to actually be able to write this story arc.

Edited December 4, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Carrie Ann]

I like your interpretation way better than mine, so I'll take it. :)

 

And I do get that Oliver is completely terrified of losing Felicity, but then... this has to somehow be turned into a story arc for him. Because it REALLY isn't healthy for him or for Felicity, if she's his only lifeline like this. Character development here is Oliver figuring out that while it might suck balls to live without being with Felicity, that he can do it *well*, and not whatever the hell it was he was doing last season.

 

I just don't know if I trust these writers to actually be able to write this story arc.

 

I fully agree. I edited my post to clarify a little, that when I say "really fucked up," I mean WAY above what is normal for people. And that is already a very high level, because I think anyone would feel real terror at the thought of breaking up with someone they want to spend their whole life with.

 

So it is NOT normal. His emotional responses are NOT normal. And something needs to be done about that. If that's the progress we get from him by screwing this up so badly and getting dumped by Felicity, then okay. I'll still think it's about the most contrived, hack-y way to accomplish this, but you know. That's what I've come to expect from these people, so.

[dtissagirl]

I have no idea how they managed to write Oliver into this particular corner, but it's as if they weren't satisfied just with the decision to make Felicity the One Woman in the hero's journey. Oh no. They had to go overboard with it, because they haven't met a melodrama staple they didn't love.

 

I mean. I'm totally okay with Oliver believing that being in such a good relationship with Felicity helped him mature, and finally made him able to look forward to a "normal" life, and contemplate a future for the first time in almost a decade. But she CANNOT be the single reason for everything ever in his life. And yeah, that kind of demands a storyline in which Oliver [and Felicity too, actually] realize that he can be a self-sufficient human being without Felicity... it's just that he just doesn't want to be without her. That's the mature healthy way of looking at a relationship.

 

But then there's a hilarious external factor that goes in direct opposite to the need for this kind of storyline for Oliver: whatever blackhole-y thing that happens when Oliver and Felicity are at odds with each other, that ends up sucking the joy out of the show completely, and that these writers really really REALLY don't know how to circumvent.

[looptab]

As someone has already said, we really needed some more input from Oliver on his thought process. But since we didn't get that, I'm going with your interpretation as well. It's better than "Oh, look, different girl, different couch, same lying bastard". 

And I also think that, maybe, watching the tho halves of the crossovers back to back might help in this regard, because in the Flash portion Oliver clearly stated that being with Felicity gave him a peace of mind he never had. I don't know if I feel like trying it yet, though, haha.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm totally on board that he's lying to her because he's terrified of losing her.  It makes me sad for him and it's a consistent character trait and I get it.  I hate the lying, obviously, but even more, at the end of all this, I don't see why FELICITY should put up with this, AGAIN.  This is not the first time he's done this to her, it's not the second time, it's not the third time.  He'd lied to and used and manipulated her since S1.  I mean, I give him a big pass for S1, bc, budding superhero, but he was lying to and using her even then.  So I agree that in-show this will be the final push for him truly to change (although again, I thought the LOA crap and the ending of the S1-S3 trilogy was the final push for him truly to change), but for her I don't see why it wouldn't be the final straw.  I can't see any possible way for them to believably write her trusting him again.  I can see her forgiving him, but she's a forgiving person, but like Laurel I can't see why she'd want to date him again or even be in the same room.  To me she should forgive him and move on, from him.  From her perspective this is same ol', same ol', and I don't see how she can believably get past that or EVER trust him again.

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Carrie Ann]

I don't know why Felicity should put up with it either. I don't think she will, right away, so if we assume that they do break up, then I just have a big ? in the place between then and O/F getting back together. I guess if she saw him make an actual change specifically related to this--another instance where he could keep a secret but chooses not to even though it will damage him, maybe? (honestly I'm bad at this kind of spec)--AND, related to his abnormal emotional processing and resulting behaviors and his dependence on her as the key to peace and hope and goodness in his life--if she saw him go on with his life while they were broken up, being a good person, a good mayor (theoretically) and Green Arrow, a good friend and brother and UGH father, then maybe that would be the progress she would need to give him another chance.

 

I totally see what you're saying, and I wouldn't judge Felicity for thinking this is the last straw. But, the person she met in S1 had PTSD and he still does. He makes progress, though, even if he has setbacks and infuriating patterns of behavior, and so if she considers that progress (and the fact that he was starting out in a deficit when they met) in making her decision, I wouldn't find that doormat-ty either.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know why Felicity should put up with it either. I don't think she will, right away, so if we assume that they do break up, then I just have a big ? in the place between then and O/F getting back together. I guess if she saw him make an actual change specifically related to this--another instance where he could keep a secret but chooses not to even though it will damage him, maybe? (honestly I'm bad at this kind of spec)--AND, related to his abnormal emotional processing and resulting behaviors and his dependence on her as the key to peace and hope and goodness in his life--if she saw him go on with his life while they were broken up, being a good person, a good mayor (theoretically) and Green Arrow, a good friend and brother and UGH father, then maybe that would be the progress she would need to give him another chance.

 

I totally see what you're saying, and I wouldn't judge Felicity for thinking this is the last straw. But, the person she met in S1 had PTSD and he still does. He makes progress, though, even if he has setbacks and infuriating patterns of behavior, and so if she considers that progress (and the fact that he was starting out in a deficit when they met) in making her decision, I wouldn't find that doormat-ty either.

I'm sure she'll see him behaving differently, but she also just saw him, when Thea went after him, tell her the truth about the Pit's effects and sincerely apologize.  She saw him take punches and work stuff out with Digg.  She saw him behave differently with Laurel.  She saw him come to her with his fears instead of keeping secrets and cutting her off.  SHE SAW HIS CHANGE. (emphasis not directed at you)  She had every reason to believe it was real.  Now IT'S ALL GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN.  She's going to dump him, he's going to feel terrible and sad, he's going to make a real effort to change, she'll see that real effort at change, WHICH SHE JUST ALREADY SAW.  

 

And she's definitely very forgiving.  I like that about her.  She's quick to anger but also very willing to forgive.  But at what point is she just repeating the same actions and expecting a different result?

 

I think I have exactly one way I could buy her taking him back after all this without feeling like she's a doormat...if he goes to therapy.  I don't know how that would work, exactly, but this is a pretty silly show, so they could just wave the wand and say the therapist agreed to keep all his secrets (maybe he save the therapist's kid or something) and he goes to therapy.  It could be fun, actually.  The Sopranos made therapy interesting, and it doesn't have to be more than a few minutes every few episodes.  I liked the therapist Cupid had.  The actress was good in her short scene.

[Password]

he goes to therapy.

Sending you a sky five.

Oliver's go-to reaction is secrets and lies. Someone needs to show him better ways of dealing with this. Oliver knows it's wrong to lie. It's almost like he doesn't know how to react in a different manner because, as Felicity said, the truth is complicated according to Oliver Queen.

Well OK, he's been reacting very well to keeping secrets this season by NOT keeping secrets. But because the writers have dried up on ideas how to create organic drama, secrets and lies it is.

[statsgirl]

The only way I can see Oliver agreeing to therapy is if they're doing something else during it like punching bags or running or playing basketball.  He's not the sort of person to sit and talk about his feelings.

[AyChihuahua]

The only way I can see Oliver agreeing to therapy is if they're doing something else during it like punching bags or running or playing basketball.  He's not the sort of person to sit and talk about his feelings.

I don't know, he seemed a little intrigued by Cupid's therapist.  And that's not a lot for Felicity to ask for, if they can find one they trust.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

Maybe they'll have him hand her his journal to read as a grand gesture and physical proof of his trust. 

[statsgirl]

I think he was intrigued that Cupid's therapist called him on needing therapy.  (Totally unethical -- she was allowed to know that he needed therapy but not to say anything unless he asked.)

 

And that's not a lot for Felicity to ask for, if they can find one they trust.

From Oliver, I think it is.  There are deep, deep tidal pools going on in his mind and I don't think she should ask him to go there if he doesn't want to.

I'd be fine with another gesture to prove he trusts her though.  Some more secrets from his time away, or agreeing for her to do something he opposes but she wants.

[Password]

I thought as a gesture to show he trusts her, he willingly divulges what happened to him on the island. That would be very impressive.

[kismet]

From the Bitterness thread:

 

 

 

First, I saw someone on Tumblr say that the lighting on SA's face may actually be part of the problem, and I agree. That's such a weird thing to say, but I think the angle of his face and the light/shadows on it may make him look a little more serene/content than he was actually trying to convey. It kind of looks like a grimace or a "close your eyes to stop thinking" type of face depending on your brightness levels.

 

But even if that's not the case, it doesn't change my interpretation of the scene, which is that Oliver looks completely relieved to be in Felicity's arms because he is. Because that is his dominant, overwhelming emotion at that moment. That doesn't mean he's not at all conflicted, and I would definitely have preferred to see something like that. But on the other hand, while I watched the scene, I was so thrown by that reaction that my immediate interpretation was, "Whoa, okay, he was REALLY fucked up by the thought of her breaking up with him." So fucked up that he would make such a stupid, desperate mistake. Fucked up on a level above the typical human response.

 

That line, "It's over, and I'm back, in Star City, with you." The clinging hug, the closed-eyed, clear, deep, intense relief in his face. The way he looked panicked and sickened at every point earlier in the episode where losing her crossed his mind: the first scene with Samantha, the non-breakup, the scene where Barry told him, the "She is nice. She's the best," line, which was my favorite delivery of his in the whole episode. They all add up to tell me that the thought of losing her is horrifying and unbearable to him, on a deep, lizard-brain level. I think his PTSD is in play; I think his fear of what he becomes without her is in play. I think he has finally let himself be vulnerable to a thing having power over him--his love for her and their life and hopes for a future together--and he is bone-deep terrified at the thought of it slipping away.

 

So when he's back in SC, and she's so firmly with him--and especially if you believe the interpretation that he doesn't think he's ever going to be allowed to really be William's father (Samantha saying he can "never" tell anyone else, just Mommy's friend, etc.)--he's just overwhelmingly relieved to have dodged the scariest bullet of his life, and probably willfully blind to the obvious risk that Felicity will find out some other day.

 

SA is about the only performer on the show whose interpretations of the script almost always make sense to me, so when I watched that end scene, it immediately told me something I wasn't told by the script. To be clear: I still don't accept this as a valid reason for him not to tell Felicity, and I don't think it's the definitive interpretation. But it is mine, and it means I can continue to understand Oliver, even while I reject this choice and this path they've chosen for him.

I appreciate your interpretation. And a lot of it makes sense. I'm not sure I agree or disagree with it. But I would have to watch it again and I just can't do that right now or anytime soon. My initial reaction was one of absolute shock & dismay. It might have been a lighting problem. However, I think that SA could have played it a little more conflicted. I get that his initial response is pure relief that he is not going to lose FS, for me though it rang more as I dodged a bullet and less about his love for FS.

 

Perhaps if there wasn't a direct visual correlation to LL from years before it might have been better. In my mind, it was like I literally was seeing Ollie crawl out of the bowels of OQ's inner being. It also didn't help that is was a boob cuddle. It was read as juvenile. I wish they had just gone for a standard hug position. It just made his lying to me worse because it made him physically seem like he was regressing. It wasn't just a lie but it was a double visual reminder that OQ was regressing as a person.

[kismet]

Sending you a sky five.

Oliver's go-to reaction is secrets and lies. Someone needs to show him better ways of dealing with this. Oliver knows it's wrong to lie. It's almost like he doesn't know how to react in a different manner because, as Felicity said, the truth is complicated according to Oliver Queen.

Well OK, he's been reacting very well to keeping secrets this season by NOT keeping secrets. But because the writers have dried up on ideas how to create organic drama, secrets and lies it is.

It's so interesting because I grew up in a household where lying was frowned upon. However, my father was notorious for lying by omission or bending the truth - but he rarely ever lied. Even my mother believed in "white lies" for good reasons. Unfortunately, I pick up both bad habits. It's not lying, if you don't lie. So I get having a complicated relationship with the truth. Which is why I look for non-verbal clues. Which is probably why it was more SA/OQ facial expressions that cut the deepest in that scene. 

 

Or I learn to ask very specific questions if I want accurate answers. Which is something FS is going to probably need to learn to do. Then again, sometimes people are more content with their own nebulous interpretation of the truth. Not knowing something is sometimes better than knowing something and I think FS operates around OQ in this manner. Accepting nebulous BS answers like OQ gave her, in many ways allows the behavior to continue. No amount of therapy is really going to magically break OQ's bad habit of withholding information. What it could do is teach him better ways to communicate and have relationships. The compulsion to keep the truth or secrets will always be there, especially considering it has worked for him for over 30 years to a certain degree. But in the last few months he had shown progress in fighting this tendency to withhold the truth, which is why it was so disappointing to see him regress. It was always going to be a struggle for him even bfore all the horrors of the "island".

 

What I think OQ & FS need to do is actually go to couples therapy because that is the best way for them to actually work through their issues. I get that OQ is the one with the bigger burden of baggage, but FS's responses to certain stressors has indicated that perhaps she could use some help in communicating her needs as well. And if its the relationship that is the most important thing, learning how to communicate with each other is critical. And its clear that after 3.5 years, have good radar for reading the other, but lack the skills to really communicate with each other especially in emotionally complex scenarios.

[bijoux]

Maybe they'll have him hand her his journal to read as a grand gesture and physical proof of his trust.

That makes sense why they showed us he was keeping it in the first place.

[tarotx]

Oliver is a mess emotionally. He has never had to be fully present in a relationship. Felicity is his first (I won't count a potential Poppy because he's already killed her bother so yeah). And in episode 1, 6 and 8 after an argument with Felicity he freaks a little to a lot about losing her. For healthy adults an argument doesn't mean break up. It means letting off steam about an issue that you have to think about each persons point of view once you calm down. Instead of having that Argument and lying to Felicity (He does say it was DD related then in that first fight which is why she went ANGRY fast) He should have said He just found out and is processing the fact that he has a 9 year old son.  But Oliver goes into default Lie mode-Ok we will deal with this later (or never)-I just want it to be ok right now mode. Oliver has a lot of maturing to do still. Felicity is light years more mature. Oliver's been playing grown up all season with Felicity.

 

Olicity is the first relationship that Oliver wants with his whole soul. Felicity is his first grown up relationship (even non romantic ones) but he doesn't know how to be in a relationship. His parents always protected him from his mistakes (because of their own guilt) and he learned to compartmentalize the bad things to deal with later. I think Oliver needs to do some talking about his childhood. Why lying to protect the peace or the chance of others to have a decent life is his go too. Why did they kill Moira? He and she have so much they need to deal with still :(

 

Felicity is so going to forgive Oliver and Oliver is never going to learn. He is just going to be Ok Lie until the Lie comes out and deal with the Consequences. He's good at dealing with Consequences but not with emotional confrontation. SMH :( Felicity is going to turned into a harden her heart, do what she must to protect her family. She is going to become Moira 2.0. Which is what I think they had planned for Laurel. I think Olicity is never going to get their own storylines. They just placed Felicity into the plans for Laurel and twist and contrive to make it kind of fit. That is what is a nightmare about the drama and angst :(

 

Oliver needs Therapy. Big time. Or he's never going to be a "real boy".

Edited December 5, 2015 by tarotx

[AyChihuahua]

From Oliver, I think it is.  There are deep, deep tidal pools going on in his mind and I don't think she should ask him to go there if he doesn't want to.

I'd be fine with another gesture to prove he trusts her though.  Some more secrets from his time away, or agreeing for her to do something he opposes but she wants.

If he's not willing to go to therapy, which is not too much for her to ask after he put her through this shit AGAIN, then he can go fuck himself and be alone forever.

[kismet]

He has to be willing to go to therapy and want to change to make it worthwhile. And I think OQ would do just about anything to keep FS. And it might be the best for him. I also feel like its a reasonable request for FS to ask, especially if they do it together.

I also think it would be a good gesture of trust/love that he is willing to get help & do what FS asks. If he could honor BMs wishes to protect the relationship with his son. He can honor FS wishes to protect their relationship as well.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[Genki]

I not sure I'm interested in Superheroes therapy on Arrow, I already hate the "therapy" (and the therapist) in The Originals and was not into The Sopranos.

 

But I do want Oliver to grow as a person and move towards being as whole and as well adjusted, as a vigilante can be. I think Oliver should have to work to get back Felicity's trust, but I would rather it be through sharing more and showing trust by being emotionally vulnerable with Felicity about things like the 5 years, he fears and feelings (or journal which I hope has reflections of the 5 years but also baby name and house designs). I liked all the intimate chats they have had in the past, like the 1st Date in 3.01, on the plane in 3.20 & the arm porn in 4.05 and I want to see more of that.

 

I guess for myself they have left it in a place which can easily be rewritten to bring Oliver back, this lie of omission is disappointing and not what I want from the character but something I'm sure he will face consequences for, and IMO, in the scheme of things not the worst thing that could be done. I can think of so many more...

 

- Cheat on Felicity

- Sacrifice Donna's life for some reason (note: not Donna sacrificing her life, like Moira did, but knowingly allowing a situation to occur in which Donna dies without agency)

- Save Laurel at the expense of Felicity

- Beat/Torture Felicity (Really doubtful since he wouldn't even let the minions touch her when he was in LOA)

- Turn to Laurel for Support, Advise & Pep talks

 

Frankly I think letting them think they are dying in Nanda Parbat while "marrying" Nyssa was terrible.

 

Also the last scene played to me a bit like Felicity is aware he isn't being forthcoming about something, but she is giving him time to work through his stuff, so he hasn't been trapped in a lie like in Timeline 1 which brought out all he valid concerns about Oliver's trust issues, but because Oliver wasn't as unfocused and squirrelly in timeline 2 Felicity is handling the situation differently as well.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Genki

[kismet]

I want therapy to happen off screen. No need to watch it. Plus they would bungle it anyway.

I totally agree they have written this in a way it will be easy to undo what they have done. If we forget timeline 1, its much easier for OQ to get back FS trust because he hasn't betrayed it. He hasn't gone to BA for help over FS. He hasn't willingly kept a a secret from her. He hasn't really even told her a lie about it. He hasn't trusted her with stuff & that is a problem.

But its classic OQ to compartmentalize & withhold info. So its a regression from s4, but not something they can't undo. The time reset allowed them to remove the bulk of the trust issues between them & really make it about how much can he keep BMs trust and not betray FS. Right now he is in withhold mode & FS has rarely ever stayed mad at him for keeping secrets. It's when he lies that she has a major problem.

So I have found my zen place with this story for now because everything the writers are throwing at it is classic cookie cutter for plot ship stall BS. It's so ironic because I'm wrapping Downton Abbey s5 for my sister noe & the tagline is "secrets have a price". OQ knows he'llhave to pay a price. He's willing to do that for his son, so in some ways I respect that because it is worlds more mature than his initial reaction yrs ago to the pregnancy. And I feel like every kid should have the opportunity to know their parents if the parent wants to be a part of their life which OQ is trying to do now.

And I feel like in a few days/weeks when he really has time to process everything he'll be working on BM to get her to change her mind. But first he has to show her that he is trustworthy. So to betray her trust at the first opportunity would be counterproductive. The situation is very delicate and BM could turn on him again at any moment, he needs to handle her very carefully. And in some ways I think he trusts FS & his love that their relationship can withstand this necessary lie until he can work on BM.

FTR - do I think this arc will well written, probably not. And it most definitely will not be on the level of Downton Abbey secret keeping writing, which is stellar & realistic. But I also don't think its the end of the show or Olicity. It's a stumbling obstacle which is classic TV trope. Here's hoping they keep the badly written drama to a minimum.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

I know everyone around here loves the Oliver/Barry relationship. I do as well. But, I cringed at that hug. Oliver clearly declined Barry's hug, so Barry basically told Oliver that he didn't have a choice about whether or not to hug Barry because his super speed allowed him to force the hug on Olliver. Ugh.

Consent is always important. Just because Barry is adorable doesn't make that moment harmless. Take the adorable out of it, and the scenario is the same: Person 1 makes an overture. Person 2 declines. Person 1 demands acquiescence because he/she has the ability to overpower Person 2.

Can I just say how pumped I am that OQ is not a hugger... That so fits my head canon of who he is. As a fellow non-hugger, I can totally get why he is not a hugger. As for the consent issue, there are a list of people I allow to hug me without consent. If I had the relationship that BA & OQ have, BA would probably be on my list. The wording of it was all a little weird. But that's par for the course on Arrow.

[apinknightmare]

I'm not much of a hugger, either. This is how I feel about them in most circumstances:

 

[statsgirl]

Frankly I think letting them think they are dying in Nanda Parbat while "marrying" Nyssa was terrible.

Yessss.  That was so horrible, especially after they had all come to save him, this doesn't even begin to equal it.

 

An oldie but my favourite:

Q:  How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?

-

-

-

-

-

A:  One, but it has to really want to change.

 

I don't think Oliver is there yet so therapy wouldn't help him.  But there should be some way he should have to make up to Felicity for his lying, and then maybe he will finally learn that keeping secrets is bad for his health.

[KirkB]

If Oliver's going to therapy it better end up being someone like Harleen Quinzel (Harley Quinn) or Jervis Tetch (The Mad Hatter), because otherwise seeing somebody in a comic book show laying on a couch and talking about their feelings would not be fun to watch.

[DeadZeus]

Question, I love the show but i'm not up to date with knowing any writers or directors by name. But are the same ppl from S1-S2 still involved? Because the show is really starting to jump the shark. And do they even know this is happening, that the fans are noticing most of their weird decisions?

[tv echo]

Like some others here, I prefer a superhero who's human and doesn't have superpowers (although I certainly enjoy and can cheer for one with superpowers).  I think that's one of the reasons I find Arrow so much more compelling than The Flash.  When you're just human, you can be driven to desperation more easily when fighting evil...

 

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The only way I know to fight the darkness is to be the darkness. That’s why I left."
-- Oliver Queen (Arrow, 4x01)

 

Arrow is (or should be) first and foremost the story of Oliver Queen.

 

Pre-island Oliver was not a hero at all.  Like Laura Hurley said, "I loathe him from his terrible hair to his smarmy smile to his lackadaisical philandering ways."
 

Oliver returned from his five-year ordeal as a man on the edge of an abyss.  In season 1, he was fighting bad guys by being almost as bad. I say "almost" because he was only going after bad guys.  However, as the vigilante, he acted as judge, jury and executioner, and had no compunction about killing the bad guys. Combined with his PTSD, I think that Oliver would have gone all the way dark if it were not for Diggle and Felicity.

 

In season 2, Oliver adopted his no-killing rule in order to honor Tommy and tried to become a hero, not a killer.

 

In season 3, desperation drove Oliver to become a bad guy again, but this time he hurt his friends as well as his enemies (albeit as part of an effort to protect them).  He regressed by trying to go it alone, without his team, who ended up helping him anyway.

 

Now, in season 4, Oliver is faced with the same choice yet again. Faced with an even more powerful enemy, will Oliver have to become darkness in order to defeat Darhk, or can he defeat Darhk by remaining in the light?

[statsgirl]

I'm  hoping he will stay in the light.  They did "Oliver goes dark to fight the darkness" last season.  I still didn't buy the T-shirt.

[Password]

Did they go Oliver goes dark or Oliver goes stupid?

Oh you meant Al-Sahim.

[DeadZeus]

Oliver seems less agile this season. He just behaves like a tank imo. I remember early on in S3 he jumps out of a window and shoots an arrow in mid air to rapel down to the next floor to catch Komodo. So badass. But for some reason i can't see current Green Arrow doing this. Maybe it's his suit that gives me that impression but i dno. Instead he just jumps through doors to escape like with Double Down... Just like a tank lol. He also immediatly gives up once his target dissapears around a corner lol.

[kismet]

I think a lot of it is because of the new supersuit of stupidity. I also think that a lot of it has to do with the stunts being designed to make the other team members look better. If OQ is looking amazing, and the rest of the team looks clunky than that would defeat the new theme of this season which is that the team is amazing as a unit and nobody is more special or better than the other members. Forget about years of experience and training, those mean nothing on ARROW.

 

It's all about being able to put on a mask, if you can do that this season on ARROW than that makes you just as good as the next mask. And if you look better than the others, than the choreographers make you look worse or bench you. In previous seasons OQ's stunts were designed to make him be the star of the show. Now the stunts are being designed for the chorus line or corps, not the star of the show. And the rule of the corps is everyone must look the same. Some people have to diminish their skills and others have to try harder. But nobody can look good or outshine others. Hence, OQ/GA looks like a clunky tank.

[Angel12d]

I put some of the blame on the new suit which I dislike the longer I see it. I really thought it would grow on me but it makes him look short and chunky and the lack of sleeves is laughable when they film in Vancouver. Fools!

 

But I think mainly they're trying to cram too many masks into the show now and so Oliver doesn't really get the focus out in the field. We might see him draw his bow or punch someone and then it cuts away to someone else. There are two extra people on the team now and so we're just not getting to see him be as badass as he once was. It's disappointing. 

 

They need to split the teams up more often and only have one or two go out into the field at once or there needs to be some kind of team cull because Oliver is getting lost on his own damn show.

[statsgirl]

It's interesting because in s2 when Sara joined the Team, there were a lot of complaints that Diggle and Felicity were sidelined and that was just with a team of Oliver, Sara, Diggle and occasionally Roy.  You'd think they would have learned.  But now that Laurel and Thea have joined and they're trying to do more with Diggle, it's Oliver who is getting the short straw.

[Angel12d]

It's interesting because in s2 when Sara joined the Team, there were a lot of complaints that Diggle and Felicity were sidelined and that was just with a team of Oliver, Sara, Diggle and occasionally Roy.  You'd think they would have learned.  But now that Laurel and Thea have joined and they're trying to do more with Diggle, it's Oliver who is getting the short straw.

 

Diggle and Felicity were definitely sidelined in the middle of s2. I didn't watch live at that point, I was still marathoning the show, so had no influence of fandom or whatever but even I noticed something amiss. At one point D/F were there merely as exposition. It was ridiculous. But even then Oliver was still the star of his own show and there were some great stunts too so I can't really fault that beyond my own need/want to see more of D/F. 

 

I think the difference is that they weren't trying to make Roy as anything more than a sidekick whereas I think they're trying to make Laurel and Thea like Oliver's equals and it doesn't quite work. Not that women can't be equal to Oliver but just the way they've presented the training and story, I don't buy that L/T are anywhere near Oliver's level yet. 

[kismet]

Diggle and Felicity were definitely sidelined in the middle of s2. I didn't watch live at that point, I was still marathoning the show, so had no influence of fandom or whatever but even I noticed something amiss. At one point D/F were there merely as exposition. It was ridiculous. But even then Oliver was still the star of his own show and there were some great stunts too so I can't really fault that beyond my own need/want to see more of D/F. 

 

I think the difference is that they weren't trying to make Roy as anything more than a sidekick whereas I think they're trying to make Laurel and Thea like Oliver's equals and it doesn't quite work. Not that women can't be equal to Oliver but just the way they've presented the training and story, I don't buy that L/T are anywhere near Oliver's level yet. 

Exactly. Watching the show live fell off my radar in s2 when SL took front and center. It might have been a coincidence or it might have been something more, I honestly can't remember anymore.

 

But I think the major difference in setting up equals is the lack of LL & TQ's training experience. There are many women that are OQ's equal or perhaps even superior - SL, Katana, Nyssa, Waller & Lyla. I would say that with her computer skills, FS is his equal - if we consider her computer skills her superpower. Even the Huntress had raw skills that she used before she got her mask, even if they were at a lower level than OQ. The show has shown us or told us that these women have years of experience in their areas of expertise. So it's not that I can't just believe the writers at face value when they tell me something about a character.

 

The problem is that the writers forgot to tell or show us for 3 years that LL or TQ had any special prowess or skills that correlates to being a super vigilante. We are just supposed to believe it when it goes against the 3 years they made us watch. They had many opportunities to build it up and chose not to do it; rather the show has simply told us that LL & TQ now have superskills and want us to believe it. TQ is a little easier because we can handwave superdrugs & training from MM. LL literally just took up boxing in her spare time and hung out with Nyssa for a week or so. It's completely different scenario. However, now they are all supposed to be equals and we just have to accept it, which is where the disconnect comes I think.

 

It's more than OQ being sidelined, they are replacing him with the walk-on practice squad. In s2, they sidelined Dig & FS for SL who at least was his trained equal. I might have preferred a different grouping for personal reasons, but at least it all made sense. It doesn't make sense that LL or TQ are considered his equal, when they are not. It's not a gender thing. It's a lack of experience & training thing. But the show will probably never get on board with that because in their heads, they had this great idea for 4 years, they just forgot to tell us about it.

[statsgirl]

I think the lack of training is the explanation we give as to why the show is missing Oliver-competence this season.  But what I think is really the problem is that they are trying to write too many stories for too many characters and they can't get the balance right.

 

Sara had enough training to be believable but in order to give her enough storytime in s2, they had to cut down Diggle and Felicity to propping characters.  Last year the time was for Oliver/Malcolm/Ra's, Malcolm/Thea, Ray --> ATOM and The Rise of The Black Canary.  This year they promised to finally give Diggle and Felicity decent story arcs but in order to have the time to do it, plus show us that New Team (Thea and Laurel) are worthy something's gotta give and unfortunately it's Oliver.

 

I'm not sure how they can fix it.  Realistically they could show Speedy and Black Canary stumbling in the field but then the emphasis would shift to how they're not up to the challenge and the story would start being about them again.

 

When Roy was around, it was clear that he was at the sidekick level and so I don't remember any complaints about him being on the team.  I don't know if they could do that with Thea and Laurel though.  Especially Laurel since the Black Canary shouldn't be a sidekick.

 

I would like to see less stumbling from Oliver though. That would be a big help.

[Angel12d]

Well, this is where we come into the whole problem of BC being on the show. The history and weight of her comic book character is such that she should be equal and even better than Oliver/GA. She should have her own team (Birds of Prey) and her own nemesis. She should be off doing her own thing. But they decided to stick her on Team Arrow. It doesn't work because there will always be people who expect her to be more.

 

This is why Sara was perfect in the role because she already had the training off screen and so it's believable that she'd be on Oliver's level. They could have sent her off (maybe to Legends, who knows) and then she could've come back every now and then to help out Oliver and his team. GA/BC still could've teamed up for the comic fanboys but it wouldn't have interfered with the show's premise. 

 

But the problem is they saddled the show with a rushed and unrealistic BC origin story that makes it difficult to accept her place as 'equal' on the team. I feel like even Thea is better trained than Laurel at this point (having trained with MM for months between s2 and s3) but there's no expectation there to make her anything more than a sidekick.

 

While I do think this show needs some more balance in presenting the characters, especially out in the field, this show is about Oliver. It's not the Justice League. It's not called Arrow and Black Canary or Team Arrow. It's about Oliver's rise to GA. So pushing him out to make sure others get a chance to shine is basically screwing him over.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Angel12d

[tarotx]

In relation to baby mama drama. Plus just Oliver in general...

 

I think the problem is we are seeing Oliver as a real live boy. We are judging him as someone who knows better. But he obviously doesn't yet. He is still compartmentalizing his selves. He's this boy's father and will do what he has to, to be in this boy's life. Everything else is shut away in it's own piece of his brain that Oliver will deal with when it's time for Oliver to be doing and living that section. Oliver isn't a douche but he is not a healthy person. I don't care if this is a superhero show and not a story dealing with the psychology of a trouble soul. Oliver needs therapy. Felicity, Diggle and Thea need to demand it. Oliver needs to be a whole person instead of pieces of one at any given time. Right now I think I could live with the Flarrow verse all being in Oliver's head. That's the first time I've ever said that about a show or movie I've watched.

Edited February 8, 2016 by tarotx

[thegirlsleuth]

In relation to baby mama drama. Plus just Oliver in general...

 

I think the problem is we are seeing Oliver as a real live boy. We are judging him as someone who knows better. But he obviously doesn't yet. He is still compartmentalizing his selves. He's this boy's father and will do what he has to, to be in this boy's life. Everything else is shut away in it's own piece of his brain that Oliver will deal with when it's time for Oliver to be doing and living that section. Oliver isn't a douche but he is not a healthy person. I don't care if this is a superhero show and not a story dealing with the psychology of a trouble soul. Oliver needs therapy. Felicity, Diggle and Thea need to demand it. Oliver needs to be a whole person instead of pieces of one at any given time. Right now I think I could live with the Flarrow verse all being in Oliver's head. That's the first time I've ever said that about a show or movie I've watched.

 

 

If this were real life, I would 100 percent agree, but I feel like the show considered his PTSD finished in the first season. Plus, his compartmalentizing and secret keeping is not unique to him:  Laurel, Thea, Moira, Tommy, and even Diggle have done this, Laurel, Thea, and Diggle this season!  They made such a big deal in the first half of the season about him a) being open in his communication, and b) not offering himself up for a deal with Dahrk, that I really thought, based on his actions, that he had turned the corner.  I'm waiting to see whether the lying and making deals with arch-villains is the writers forgetting his character development--completely possible--or if they are going to have him pull out of this behavior on his own, showing that he has learned to live in a different way. I also think he was was modeling really good behavior for other people during the first half of the season, but again, that's out the window as well.

 

You sometimes hear people talk about what this show would be like if it was on netflix--boobs!  better fight scenes!--but I wish it were on netflix because we might have gotten a thoughtful examination of someone recovering from PTSD. 

[tarotx]

Oliver reverts back to his issues whenever there is emotional conflict or drama. He was good the first half because emotionally he was in a good place. The first signs of emotional stress and he steps into old habits. He has to be vigilant or he will slide. And this isn't about season 1 PTSD per say since this issue isn't one that came from the island. He had it as Ollie Queen. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by tarotx

[thegirlsleuth]

You're right--these character traits don't come from a time when he was Oliver Queen, castaway, but pre-date that time to when he was Ollie, inveterate liar, and they do come out when he's under pressure. I know this is a superhero show, but it makes me sad  he couldn't have had more time in Ivy Town where he's not under constant threat and could actually recover.  While a bunch of shows have done therapy in a dramatically compelling way, unless he did it over the summer break I don't think Arrow would do it.  This show is always going to take the action route, and if self-understanding doesn't happen through that, it doesn't happen.  

[bijoux]

OMG, I didn't even think about this until tarotx wrote about Oliver compartmentalizing, but this is a revisit of Oliver Queen vs. The Arrow all over again. Oliver has learned how to blend those two parts of his personality (greatly helped by the fact that all the people closest to him are part of both sides of his life) and now there's DadOliver throwing a wrench in things. So this time it's like SCOliver vs. CCOliver. I'm actually wondering if Samantha did him a favor in a perverse way, so that he could put off merging those two aspects.

[EmeraldArcher]

OMG, I didn't even think about this until tarotx wrote about Oliver compartmentalizing, but this is a revisit of Oliver Queen vs. The Arrow all over again. Oliver has learned how to blend those two parts of his personality (greatly helped by the fact that all the people closest to him are part of both sides of his life) and now there's DadOliver throwing a wrench in things. So this time it's like SCOliver vs. CCOliver. I'm actually wondering if Samantha did him a favor in a perverse way, so that he could put off merging those two aspects.

I like this theory, but I don't think he really has yet learned how to blend those things.  He has in the context of relationships with Thea and Felicity, but I'm not sure how to categorize his relationship with Malcolm. I think he tolerates Malcolm because Oliver Queen loves his sister, but the Green Arrow shouldn't be able to look at him without trying to take him down.

 

I'm always fascinated by Oliver's ability to compartmentalize, especially because it's led to heroic self-sacrifice and really bad decisions. But, even though compartmentalizing keeps things separate, it doesn't necessarily have to keep things secret. Oliver's fault is that he keeps things separate and secret, which constantly undermines his personal relationships.

[bijoux]

I'm always fascinated by Oliver's ability to compartmentalize, especially because it's led to heroic self-sacrifice and really bad decisions. But, even though compartmentalizing keeps things separate, it doesn't necessarily have to keep things secret. Oliver's fault is that he keeps things separate and secret, which constantly undermines his personal relationships.

 

This is actually pretty fascinating as well. To start off, I am in no way justifying Oliver's lie about the kid to Felicity, not at all. But looking at it on a larger scale, it's really Oliver who's fighting with this. For instance, it didn't seem that Dig struggled with keeping the secret about his work with Oliver from Carly when they were together, the tension came from Andy and Deadshot. Thea hasn't been shown to struggle about hiding her Speedy persona from Alex, Felicity wasn't guilt ridden about keeping her night activities from Ray when they were together. 

 

Which should really teach Oliver he's not cut out to keep secrets from people in his life. At least not anymore. 

[EmeraldArcher]

This is actually pretty fascinating as well. To start off, I am in no way justifying Oliver's lie about the kid to Felicity, not at all. But looking at it on a larger scale, it's really Oliver who's fighting with this. For instance, it didn't seem that Dig struggled with keeping the secret about his work with Oliver from Carly when they were together, the tension came from Andy and Deadshot. Thea hasn't been shown to struggle about hiding her Speedy persona from Alex, Felicity wasn't guilt ridden about keeping her night activities from Ray when they were together. 

 

Which should really teach Oliver he's not cut out to keep secrets from people in his life. At least not anymore. 

As I was rereading your post, it struck me that you're right about the much higher degree to which Oliver struggles with this, but secret-keeping has really only plagued the masked characters from the comics:

Oliver: Enough said

Canary/Sara: She kept her identity a secret from Laurel, and it seemed to create some tension for her.

Black Canary/Laurel: Her stupid S3 arc about keeping Sara's death from her Dad also required her to hide her costumed activities from him as well, for awhile, and it led to tension.

Arsenal/Roy: He hid his membership in Team Arrow from Thea, and it even led to their break-up.

Speedy/Thea: She hid her training and relationship with Malcolm from Oliver, which caused tension for the siblings. I liked how that was resolved though; when Thea found out that Malcolm kept Oliver's secret from her, she was furious and saw through his manipulations.

 

Non-Masked Heroes

Diggle: What's interesting about your point regarding Diggle and Carly is that Carly was actually kidnapped and endangered because of Digg's membership on Team Arrow, and he didn't spend a single second feeling guilty for not telling her. (He wasn't a mask then, which is why he's on this list)

Felicity: Her compartmentalization abilities are the best, because she recognized that she didn't owe Ray the truth about her membership on Team Arrow or her knowledge of the Arrow's identity. The only secrets she's kept is about helping TA3 from Oliver, but he forgave her and understood.

 

So maybe this is a required element of wearing a mask/being a hero, and it's magnified in Oliver because he's the Big Hero of the show? And because it's magnified, secret-keeping/lying permeates every aspect of his life?

[rtalive]

Oliver is a little bit changed this season. He is more human, more grounded, happy. He listens a lot to the other's opinions and he doesn't push his opinion or choices to the others. He does not want to kill anymore but still wants to save the city.

Being on a happy healthy relationship makes him this way I think.

But that's where the problem of perceiving  him as a strong, ruthless winner against strong brutal villains comes. Because he is the hero and people expect him to be the winner. I know that there has to be a difference between the bad and the good, the dark and the light, but often the good looks weak and fails, because being good against evil just can't win in reality. I also know this is comic book interpretation, but they try to make it realistic. Nd till now he hasn't won a single battle, just small fights.

In the previous seasons we had leader Oliver, man who gave orders, took decisions by himself and fought on the field viciously without remorse for the bad guys.(with small exceptions when the plot demanded it I think - Helena's father, which was the first time i was thinking - wft Oliver, why don't you just let her do her revenge, maybe it won't save her soul but the guy is a murderer. And of course Malcom in s3, which was another wft moment.).

I think tha,t if they try to balance between his personal life and his relationship with his friends where he is this honest considered guy and on the other hand on the field and in the Arrow cave he is  leader again, who sometimes takes the hard but evident choices even though it means kill someone it would have been perfect hero representation in my opinion.

[bijoux]

I don't have that much of an issue about him being against Helena murdering her father. It wasn't just about Frank in S1. She was gunning down his men and making it look like it was the Triad. She was putting an all out war between two powerful fractions into motion. Had it happened, the members of the Italian mob and the Triad would have been the least numerous casualties. A shitload of people would have ended up as collateral damage. Now, in S2, Oliver was on the saving sould kick.

 

And one still needs to point out that Frank Bertinelli, horrible human being that he was, was still more of a father to Helena than Malcolm has been to Thea.

[bijoux]

It took me a while to verbalize it, but I decided that people coming to Oliver to kill other people, especially when they themselves should be equiped to handle their own killings, really and honestly disturbs me. Because at the end of the day I think Oliver sees himself as a recovering addict when it comes to killing. One false move and he can see himself falling back into that dark pit. I don't see anyone pushing a drink in Lance's hand when they just want him to chill. It's just not right.

[EmeraldArcher]

It took me a while to verbalize it, but I decided that people coming to Oliver to kill other people, especially when they themselves should be equiped to handle their own killings, really and honestly disturbs me. Because at the end of the day I think Oliver sees himself as a recovering addict when it comes to killing. One false move and he can see himself falling back into that dark pit. I don't see anyone pushing a drink in Lance's hand when they just want him to chill. It's just not right.

This is such a great way to understand Oliver, and I think you're 100% correct.  Oliver has verbalized his fear of being the monster and killer that others have called him--even this season.  I think you've helped me find a way to be kinder to Oliver, especially when he makes me so mad with his lying--lying is also something that addicts do.  Even though Oliver isn't lying about his addition (killing), I'm sure that lying just still comes so naturally to him.  Perhaps, as S2 was about him "finding another way" in his course of action, S4 can be part of his journey to finding another way to be.  He articulated his desire to be someone else to Felicity in the S3 finale, and he made great strides towards that.

[Carrie Ann]

From the Relationships Thread:

 

Because right now I get the impression that SA feels that his chance to play a dad onscreen is more important than the integrity of a relationship that they've been building for 4 seasons, and if that's the case, why the hell am I rooting for his character to be with the other character that I love?

 

But what exactly can he do about it? He doesn't write the show, and from what I can tell he didn't want the storyline to play out this way.

 

SA can elevate the writing through his acting choices, even if the writing is ultimately bad (ie. boob cuddle, guilty looks scattered throughout for interpretation).  It's the little things that he is always known for that can show Oliver's layers of feelings - give it more depth and show how he feels really bad for hiding things from Felicity - that can be done outside of the writing.

 

To clarify, I do think that SA's feelings about this storyline influence his acting choices. We've joked a lot about his nOTP face, and for me, the way SA has portrayed Oliver handling the secrets and lies follows the same pattern. 

 

...but doesn't the actor's opinion about a storyline directly or indirectly affect their acting choices because of their interpretation of their character?  When SA voiced his opinion of Oliver's actions, it is a window to how we interpret Oliver's actions on-screen.  His opinions are reflected in his acting.

 

It sort of feels like two things are being argued here: 1) that Stephen cares more about the fatherhood storyline--in its entirety--than Oliver/Felicity or anything else on the show, and that therefore, 2) he has not/will not play Oliver as though he feels guilty, because Stephen does not feel that Oliver should feel that way about it. Is that right?

 

To point one, I don't think SA saying that it's his "favorite" story means that he cares about it at the expense of the rest of the four seasons of work he's put in on the show and the relationships on it. He always likes the most recent thing the best, for one thing. For a second thing, as @apinknightmare said, what he likes/liked is the idea of playing a father because that's important to him as a person.

 

What Stephen did not like about this story, to our knowledge, was the way the writers (MARC, let's be real) made Oliver lie to Felicity. He said he fought against that, to the point of asking for it to be a lie of omission instead, and he lost that battle. That tells me that SA does think there is something wrong with what Oliver did.

 

So to the second point--while I do disagree with the premise to a degree, the writers effectively dropped the story between 409 and 414 entirely, and I don't think it would have made sense for Stephen to throw in random guilty faces during episodes they didn't belong. He was guilty last week, until Thea illogically absolved him. But more importantly, going forward, I don't see why Stephen would play out the rest of this storyline as though Oliver has no reason to feel regret/remorse, when we know SA realized in advance of filming 408 that lying to Felicity was a bad move. After tonight, the part that he was excited about is over for the time being. It's no longer about Oliver being a father (not that it ever was, I'd argue, but SA's not here to defend himself on that point), but about the fallout between Oliver and Felicity, and I see no reason to believe SA won't convincingly portray Oliver's guilt and regret simply because he was also excited to play a father this season.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Carrie Ann