Angel - General Discussion

[Pallas]

This topic replaces the old Angel forum which has been vaulted at the location below:

http://forums.previously.tv/forum/296-angel-v/

[cleo]

I don't like Connor but I don't think he's stupid enough to fall for Cordelia's act, saying Angel was going to kill her out of jealousy/hatred for Connor.  Nor do i believe he would kill a girl.

This is right up there with the Magic!Crack story. And just like that story, one I wont watch again.

Edited January 11, 2019 by cleo

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 2:18 AM, cleo said:

I don't like Connor but I don't think he's stupid enough to fall for Cordelia's act, saying Angel was going to kill her out of jealousy/hatred for Connor.  Nor do i believe he would kill a girl.

This is right up there with the Magic!Crack story. And just like that story, one I wont watch again.

You've got to think about his background, he's been brainwashed by Holtz all his life and suddenly all Holtz has told him about Angel turning seems to come true?

 The Good; Great final confrontation and like the way that Spike is so possessive of his clipboard. Powerful performance from Wes who grows ever more deranged as he suspects Angel has betrayed them.

The Bad; ?

Best line; Connor; (eying Illyria) "Sorry, always had a thing for older women" Angel; (muttering) "They were supposed to fix that" Connor; "What?" Angel; "Nothing"

Jeez, how did they get away with that? Gunn has his heart ripped out on a daily basis.

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Clichés In disguise; 8

DB/JM get's his shirt off; 19,

Cheap Angel; 8

Fang Gang in bondage: Cordy: 5 Angel: 15 Wes: 8 Gunn; 8 Lorne; 6 Fred; 5 Spike; 6

Fang gang knocked out: Cordy: 15 Angel: 20 Wes: 10 Doyle; 1 Gunn; 4 Lorne; 8 Groo; 1 Connor; 1 Faith; 1 Fred; 7 Spike; 5

Kills; Angel kills at least 5 demons, Connor kills 2 Cordy: 5 vamps, 3 demons Angel; 48 vamps, 72 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg Doyle; 1 vamp Wes; 16 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 4 humans, 2 cyborgs Kate; 3 vamps Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans. Gunn; 11 vamps+ 15 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human. Groo; 1 demon Fred; 3 vamps+ 14 demons, 5 zombies Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 4 demons, Jasmine Spike; 21 vamps, 12 demons+1 human+one parasite

Fang Gang go evil: Cordy: 3 Angel: 3 Gunn; 1 Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang; Cordy: 4 Angel: 12 Fred; 3 Wes; 1 Gunn; 2 Connor; 1 Lorne; 1

Characters killed: 2265

Recurring characters killed; 12

Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, Wes refers to them running out of people. Angel, Gunn, Lorne, Wes, Spike

Angel Investigations shot: Angel: 15 Wes; 2 Spike; 1

Packing heat; Wes; 13 Doyle; 1 Angel; 4 Gunn; 3 Fred; 5

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 2 possible, Justine, Fred Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen. Fred; 1 Gunn, 1 possible Wes Groo; 1Cordy Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky: Spike refers to Illyria as a 'filthy harlot'. Connor fancies her, once again a thing for older women, a teenage boy's lust so powerful even magic can't change it. Illyria wants to keep Spike as her pet.

Captain Subtext; Marcus tells Angel he and Angel won't be having sex on the couch 'anytime soon'. But doesn't rule it out entirely? Angel's 'Do I look 500?' joke perhaps a comment on immortal Angel looking noticeably older. Check out the little look Illyria gives Harmony as she walks out of Wes' office. Hmmmm? Connor wonders if Sajhan wants to kiss him?

Know the face, different character; 7

Parking garages; 10,

Buffy characters on Angel; 17 Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

What the fanficcers thought; . A few nice fics regarding what would happen is Connor and Dawn hitched up. What would the children of the son of 2 vampires and The Key be like?

Questions and observations; Never liked Connor but much like Riley in 'As You Were' he's much easier to accept in small doses. Anne Rice bashed. Good! Was it Cyrus Vail that made Sajhan incorporeal? What courage Gunn shows although you'd have liked to have heard what Marcus was going to offer him? You forget that Sajhan never met adult Connor so has no idea who he is. Does everyone now remember about Connor or just Illyria, Connor and Wes?

Marks out of 10; 8/10 here begins the rehabilitation of Connor for me frankly

[MerelyAFan]

Its a kudos to Vincent Kartheiser that he manages two new characterizations of Connor (false memories and combined memories) as naturally and organically as he did his previous one in season 4.  Given how much he made weaselly Pete Campbell on Mad Men a compelling character that's no surprise. 

I am glad that the memory spell was lifted as I wouldn't want the series finished with it intact, though with Coredelia & Fred both dead and only so many episodes left, it sadly really doesn't get explored as much as it could have been. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Always had a thing for older women" Angel; (muttering) "They were supposed to fix that" Connor; "What?" Angel; "Nothing"

Lol loved that line too.

I do like Connor Lite more than I liked "real Conner". A shame that it took fake memories of a normal life to balance out all the crap and finally appreciate how much Angel loves him.

Hobestly I wish we had gotten a scene of a remorseful Wesley apologizing to Angel for fucking everything up TWICE. But no, he never apologizes for anything where that's concerned.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[illdoc]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Does everyone now remember about Connor or just Illyria, Connor and Wes?

I think it's just them, since I think Vail said something like "if I drop this, reality changes for everyone in the immediate area", so I think those outside the area (Gunn, Lorne, Willow & Faith (who have met Connor, so presumably have had their memories altered (again!)) would not be affected. After all,

Spoiler

Connor's "family" still seems to know who he is (he doesn't indicate differently when he & Angel meet up again in a later episode). It's not until the comics where Connor mentions their memories changing and them forgetting him (which might not be due to this, but due to Buffy & company destroying "the seed of magic" in an earlier comic).

Oh, and Joe, don't forget---since this is now a single thread, you have to include the episode at the beginning of your review (I think this one is Origin?).

[cleo]

5 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

You've got to think about his background, he's been brainwashed by Holtz all his life and suddenly all Holtz has told him about Angel turning seems to come true?

Yeah maybe in regards to Angel. But kidnapping a girl and helping Cordelia kill her? Connor has fought evil his entire life. I'm pretty sure killing an innocent girl with a butchers knife or whatever Cordelia had would ping something inside him that something is not quite right. I feel like killing an innocent and in some ways becoming more like his father would be Connor's worst fear. 

Anyway the whole storyline fails for me on every level, from the time Connor comes back. It will take a long time for me to get to season 5, I'm very slow. 

[Joe Hellandback]

Time Bomb

The Good; Great performance from mad Wes and lovely scenes between him and Gunn making up

The Bad; In any show featuring time travel it's always a bit of a cheat to kill characters knowing you can just click your fingers and bring them back.

Best line; Marcus; "Curing cancer Mr Pryce?" Wes; "Wouldn't be cost effective. I'm sure we make a lot of money from cancer" Marcus; "True, the patent holder is a client"

Jeez, how did they get away with that? The Breathren want to feed their baby messiah consecrated urine and panda meat. I'm not sure which is worse?

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Clichés Subverting the Hollywood cliché; evil demon Fell Breathren all paternal (and rather camp?) about the coming baby. They also like organic cola.

In disguise; 8

DB/JM get's his shirt off; 19,

Cheap Angel; 8

Fang Gang in bondage: Cordy: 5 Angel: 15 Wes: 8 Gunn; 8 Lorne; 6 Fred; 5 Spike; 6

Fang gang knocked out: Cordy: 15 Angel: 20 Wes: 10 Doyle; 1 Gunn; 4 Lorne; 8 Groo; 1 Connor; 1 Faith; 1 Fred; 7 Spike; 5

Kills; Cordy: 5 vamps, 3 demons Angel; 48 vamps, 72 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg Doyle; 1 vamp Wes; 16 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 4 humans, 2 cyborgs Kate; 3 vamps Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans. Gunn; 11 vamps+ 15 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human. Groo; 1 demon Fred; 3 vamps+ 14 demons, 5 zombies Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 4 demons, Jasmine Spike; 21 vamps, 12 demons+1 human+one parasite

Fang Gang go evil: Cordy: 3 Angel: 3 Gunn; 1 Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang; Cordy: 4 Angel: 12 Fred; 3 Wes; 1 Gunn; 2 Connor; 1 Lorne; 1

Characters killed: 2265

Recurring characters killed; everyone but then they come back 12

Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, Angel, Gunn, Lorne, Wes, Spike

Angel Investigations shot: Angel: 15 Wes; 2 Spike; 1

Packing heat; Wes; 13 Doyle; 1 Angel; 4 Gunn; 3 Fred; 5

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 2 possible, Justine, Fred Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen. Fred; 1 Gunn, 1 possible Wes Groo; 1Cordy Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky: Gunn suggests they keep Illyria in a leash. Spike refers to 'Dear Penthouse'.

Captain Subtext; Illyria says that adaptation is compromise and Spike teases her about learning and the Internet. Again, we see why humans rule the world and demons don't.

Know the face, different character; 7

Parking garages; 10,

Guantanamo Bay; Suspicion of each other has started to pull AI apart, they don't trust each other anymore?

Buffy characters on Angel; 17 Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

What the fanficcers thought; . Angel travelling in time used by many fanficcers to rescue characters from all sorts of trouble.

Questions and observations; Wes suggests they keep Illyria as an asset. Jamie Bergman of course is Mrs Boreanaz and a Playboy Playmate. Has she turned up in Bones yet? Anyone else worry that Wes is slowly becoming Illyria's high priest? Marcus suggests that Angel has gone from front runner in the earning stakes to back of the pack, a hint of Angel's history at the WB? When did the 1000 year war begin? Anyone else think that Illyria reminds you of Lady Gaga? Jim Jones was a religious cult leader who led his followers into mass suicide in the South American jungle.

Here Angel get's the idea for the story arc in the last few eps.

Marks out of 10; 7/10 I think the Illyria storyline drags on too long

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎13‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 1:04 PM, MerelyAFan said:

Its a kudos to Vincent Kartheiser that he manages two new characterizations of Connor (false memories and combined memories) as naturally and organically as he did his previous one in season 4.  Given how much he made weaselly Pete Campbell on Mad Men a compelling character that's no surprise. 

I am glad that the memory spell was lifted as I wouldn't want the series finished with it intact, though with Coredelia & Fred both dead and only so many episodes left, it sadly really doesn't get explored as much as it could have been. 

Never watched Mad Men although loved Christina Hendricks on Firefly. Yes, I'm glad they came clean too, it would be like never finding out where Dawn came from. 

On ‎13‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 2:17 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Lol loved that line too.

I do like Connor Lite more than I liked "real Conner". A shame that it took fake memories of a normal life to balance out all the crap and finally appreciate how much Angel loves him.

Hobestly I wish we had gotten a scene of a remorseful Wesley apologizing to Angel for fucking everything up TWICE. But no, he never apologizes for anything where that's concerned.

 

I think there's plenty of apologising from everyone all around. I like Connor lite too, much like Riley he's better in smaller doses. 

On ‎13‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 5:49 PM, illdoc said:

I think it's just them, since I think Vail said something like "if I drop this, reality changes for everyone in the immediate area", so I think those outside the area (Gunn, Lorne, Willow & Faith (who have met Connor, so presumably have had their memories altered (again!)) would not be affected. After all,

  Hide contents

Connor's "family" still seems to know who he is (he doesn't indicate differently when he & Angel meet up again in a later episode). It's not until the comics where Connor mentions their memories changing and them forgetting him (which might not be due to this, but due to Buffy & company destroying "the seed of magic" in an earlier comic).

Oh, and Joe, don't forget---since this is now a single thread, you have to include the episode at the beginning of your review (I think this one is Origin?).

Apologies, will do. 

On ‎13‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 6:03 PM, cleo said:

Yeah maybe in regards to Angel. But kidnapping a girl and helping Cordelia kill her? Connor has fought evil his entire life. I'm pretty sure killing an innocent girl with a butchers knife or whatever Cordelia had would ping something inside him that something is not quite right. I feel like killing an innocent and in some ways becoming more like his father would be Connor's worst fear. 

Anyway the whole storyline fails for me on every level, from the time Connor comes back. It will take a long time for me to get to season 5, I'm very slow. 

Oh I can't watch that scene, every time Connor does something right (sticking it to the tourist vamps during permanent darkness etc) you cheer for him and then they reset the clock and he's a jerk again. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Joe Hellandback
n

[Joe Hellandback]

The Girl in Question

The Good; Personally I think it's worth it just to see 50s Spike and Dru in their chic Fellini phase. Also stunning to see Amy Acker switch from Fred to Illyria and back in the blink of an eye. Love the slow-motion fight in the nightclub.

Best line; Ilona; "The gypsies are a filthy people and we shall talk of them no more!" (the line that stays with you from this ep)

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Angel describes himself as 'Seeing Nina' but denies she's his girlfriend. The Immortal of course is an eternal being who may or may not be evil, just as Buffy likes them. Spike says he knows he hasn't a shot with Buffy but still loves her. The bartender comments that the Immortal's girlfriends come and go. So this makes Buffy's track record; Buffy: 4 confirmed; Angel, Parker, Riley, Spike. 4 possible, Dracula+RJ+Shadowmen's demon and The Immortal(?) almost certain that Buffy and the Immortal have sex but we've never see it so unconfirmed, all we're told is that they snuggle. But then she's done that with Scott Hope, Owen and Jeffery.

Kinky dinky: Spike tells Angel to 'Wank off!' The Immortal seems to have enjoyed a threesome with Darla and Dru which the pair are reluctant to do with Spike and Angelus. The Immortal didn't hurt Darla until she asked him to and describes him as insatiable and their sex as really great fornication. Dru refers to playing 'Pony'. Angelus once again declares that nuns are 'his thing'. The bartender describes Buffy as a 'girl gone wild'. Spike thinks that sex makes a relationship if you do it enough (good thing he never tells Angel about him and Buffy getting to fifth base on the balcony at the Bronze!). Trish Burkle seems very fond of Wes. WR&H Rome CEO is a knockout. Literally, I think her amazing breasts would knock you out if you got too close (but what a way to be rendered unconscious!). She also seems like a past amour of The Immortal and considers their dealings 'most satisfactory'. Angel refers to The Immortal eating Buffy's cookie dough. Andrew appears to be going on a date with a pair of beautiful Italian girls, has he become a Casanova or.....?

Captain Subtext; ....are they his 'fag hags' to quote Will and Grace? Loads of Spike and Angel bonding despite Angel commenting it's not 'About us' and referring to themselves as 'Partners'. Angelus' threat to shove the henchmen's arrows 'slowly up their arses' is rife with not so subtle gay innuendo as is the use of the phrase 'had us tossed'. Dru and Darla enjoy a threesome with the Immortal and then like to bathe together. Dru likes Darla to hold her underwater? Spike calls the Immortal a ponce. When they're on the scooter Spike tells Angel not to hold so tight. The male demon admits he's in love with the Immortal.

What the fanficcers thought; . Lot's of fic where the Immortal saves everyone from every possible fate that has befallen them. Lot's more slashfic when we see him with Spike and Angelus and sometimes both at once. Also a lovely one where Dawn has The Talk with The Immortal just as Joyce had with Angel, telling him that if he loves Buffy he must let her go.

Missing scenes; Rumour has it that SMG was willing to appear in this ep but Joss declined as he thought that the ep should be about the Angel characters alone and she would steal the show. Also rumoured that the Immortal would be played by Freddie Prinze aka Mr SMG or Christian Slater meaning that Buffy had fulfilled her ambitions in the movie of graduate, go to Europe, marry Christian Slater and die. Then again maybe the Immortal is more of a Hugh Hefner/Errol Flynn sort of character and Buffy is just his latest Girl of the Immortal's Mansion? (RJ aside she always did have a thing for older men)

Questions and observations; We don't see Gunn in his suit again. Lorne seems to be drinking a lot, we hardly ever see him now without a glass in his hand. Did Wes never tell Fred's family what happened to her? So is this really Buffy? According to the comics this is actually a decoy she set up because she's actually in Scotland but maybe that's AFTER this episode? Surely Spike and Angel would be able to tell her by her scent alone? Sadly the last time we'll see Darla, Dru and Andrew. What does 'Ragazza' mean? The chase scene may be a homage to The Pink Panther. Spike refers to 'shemps' from the 3 stooges. Illyria appears to be developing human feelings. Personally I agree with Wes, as long as Illyria can always keep up the pretence it's kinder to the Burkles to have them think that Fred is still alive.

In a sense our last glimpse of Buffy, how nice that we see her happy, dancing and enjoying life as a young woman should. Cool in-joke on Kristine Sutherland who took most of season 4 off to house sit in Italy and let her daughter go to school there and learn Italian. Now Joyce's daughters do the same.

I think a lot of people dislike this ep as we see our cool heroes humiliated by the much cooler Immortal but I think it's great. Andrew says that Buffy loves both Angel and Spike which the comics bear out. Personally I think Buffy/human Angel with resouled/human Dru as the girl for Spike, Spike in all honesty knowing he's not the guy. You must remember that the Immortal is not the long term guy as he doesn't age and Buffy does, as the bartender and Andrew point out they can't be together for long.

Marks out of 10; 8/10

[MerelyAFan]

This really isn't a fair criticism given they likely didn't know at the time they were making this episode that the series was going to be over, but the Spike/Angel/Immortal stuff feels such wasted time for these last few episodes. I understand the need for some levity given how grim the final story ends up being, but the wacky adventures in Europe just feels like it comes out of nowhere and doesn't amount to much. It also creates a bit of tonal problem given the emotionally heavy story of Illyria & Wes is contrasted with the A plot and thus we get an episode that can't decide what its going for. The series for Angel and this season for Spike demonstrated how both had grown beyond merely their love for Buffy and it was a character arc that didn't really need this episode to make that point. 

I might have liked it more if it had happened earlier in the season, but as is it feels like comedy fluff without much poignancy. 

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, MerelyAFan said:

This really isn't a fair criticism given they likely didn't know at the time they were making this episode that the series was going to be over, but the Spike/Angel/Immortal stuff feels such wasted time for these last few episodes. I understand the need for some levity given how grim the final story ends up being, but the wacky adventures in Europe just feels like it comes out of nowhere and doesn't amount to much. It also creates a bit of tonal problem given the emotionally heavy story of Illyria & Wes is contrasted with the A plot and thus we get an episode that can't decide what its going for. The series for Angel and this season for Spike demonstrated how both had grown beyond merely their love for Buffy and it was a character arc that didn't really need this episode to make that point. 

I might have liked it more if it had happened earlier in the season, but as is it feels like comedy fluff without much poignancy. 

No, they knew the series was ending immediately after the 100th ep (they actually let them have a party then told them the bad news).

 

The Good; Drogan and Illyria play Crash Bandicoot. Angel reveals his devious side and Illyria starts to embrace her humanity.

The Bad; When Angel arrives at WR&H's offices it's night but when he walks into his office it's day. Angel threatens Lorne with a neck hold but we know Lorne can be decapitated and survive? But maybe that's the point?

Best line; Lindsey; "They're a secret society" Gunn; "Never heard of them" Lindsey; "That's because they're SECRET!"

Jeez, how did they get away with that? Drogan tortured and killed is horrible. Also nasty to see Marcus pounding Illyria.

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Clichés Subverting the Hollywood cliché; Angel kills Drogan!

In disguise; 8

DB/JM get's his shirt off; 20

Cheap Angel; 8

Fang Gang in bondage: Cordy: 5 Angel: 15 Wes: 8 Gunn; 8 Lorne; 6 Fred; 5 Spike; 6

Fang gang knocked out: Cordy: 15 Angel: 20 Wes: 10 Doyle; 1 Gunn; 4 Lorne; 8 Groo; 1 Connor; 1 Faith; 1 Fred; 7 Spike; 5

Kills; Illyria kills the demon, Angel kills Drogan Cordy: 5 vamps, 3 demons Angel; 48 vamps, 72 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 13 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg Doyle; 1 vamp Wes; 16 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 4 humans, 2 cyborgs Kate; 3 vamps Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans. Gunn; 11 vamps+ 15 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human. Groo; 1 demon Fred; 3 vamps+ 14 demons, 5 zombies Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 4 demons, Jasmine Spike; 21 vamps, 12 demons+1 human+one parasite

Fang Gang go evil: we almost think Angel does Cordy: 3 Angel: 3 Gunn; 1 Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang; Cordy: 4 Angel: 12 Fred; 3 Wes; 1 Gunn; 2 Connor; 1 Lorne; 1

Characters killed: 4 civilians plus Drogan 2269

Recurring characters killed; Drogan 13

Total number of Angel Investigations; 5, Illyria goes hunting with Spike, starting to become one of the gang Angel, Gunn, Lorne, Wes, Spike

Angel Investigations shot: Angel: 15 Wes; 2 Spike; 1

Packing heat; Wes confronts Angel with a shotgun but Angel takes it off him Wes; 14 Doyle; 1 Angel; 5 Gunn; 3 Fred; 5

Notches on the Scooby bedpost; Angel beds Nina, possibly the healthiest relationship he ever actually has? Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast Angel: 7; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve, Nina Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 2 possible, Justine, Fred Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen. Fred; 1 Gunn, 1 possible Wes Groo; 1Cordy Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

Kinky dinky: Nina rummages in her bedside drawer for her stake. She finds something similar in shape and size but declares 'That's not a stake'? (does it take batteries, perhaps?). She refers to Angel's Rome friend and worries he was thinking of her (another petite blonde with supernatural abilities). Angel has obviously rocked her world to judge by her remarks, she agrees with the Furies. Oddly she suggests that Angel makes love on the beach 'by himself'? Illyria states that she and Wes are no longer having intercourse which Spike misunderstands.

Captain Subtext; Spike empathises with Illyria and they develop quite a nice relationship so late in the day. Is the demonic female senator aiming to be president in 2008 a parody of Hilary Clinton? Angel refers to him and Spike being intimate once but he may be referring to the events of 'Just Rewards'. Spike refers to frat boys paddling each other's behinds to prove their manhood.

Know the face, different character; 7

Parking garages; 10,

Guantanamo Bay; Drogan tortures the demon assassin whilst Angel sacrifices him for the greater good. Angel says that Lorne was amoral in his running of Caritas, he has a point. The gang want to torture Lindsey again but don't have to.

Buffy characters on Angel; 17 Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil, Andrew.

Questions and observations; Stacey Travis who plays the Senator was in a great old low budget Brit sci-fi movie called Hardware along with a pre-Hamburger Hill/The Practice Dylan McDermmott. Did Marcus Hainsley install her in that body? Drogan is apparently over 1000 years old and linked to the Watcher's Council. According to the comics Nina does stay in LA for the apocalypse. Nina says that Angel is a bad liar but as events prove he's actually brilliant. Illyria wishes she was still in the Deeper Well. Marcus and Drogan are old acquaintances. Flashback to CC the last we'll see of her. Did you notice the Senator's election rival is Joss Whedon?

The Circle of the Black Thorn very Halloween 6. They're an obvious convenient story twist to give the series some closure in just a few eps but it's a fascinating invention. Do they represent the executive board of the WB? Does Marcus buy Angel's act or is he always suspicious?

Marks out of 10; 7/10

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; The last day, (especially poignant for Lorne/Andy Hallet who sings a wonderful version of 'If I ruled the world'). The final battles, the twists in the tale. It's a small scene but love Harmony and Angel's little heart to heart, so very different but so very alike.

The Bad; Why didn't Joss do a commentary? Richard Burton is a Welsh actor, not English. Angel was human only 4 years ago which was more recently than Harmony was. Jeff Bell's right, the cloaks the Fell Breathren wear make them look like football players.

Best line; one of the best written shows on TV and they saved some of the finest until last;

Angel; (getting pounded by Marcus) "Kinda hoped the fight would be going a little better" followed by Connor (punching Marcus and sending him flying) "Care about that dress for less!"

then Marcus "I am a child of the Senior Partners, their strength flows through my veins, my blood is filled with their ancient power"

Angel (vamping out and biting him) "Can you guess the one word you shouldn't have mentioned?"

plus Eve; "Are you sure you can handle the Sharvin?"

Lindsey; "They're sending me out with karaoke boy, how dangerous can it be?" (oh the irony!)

Lorne; (shooting Lindsey) "I've heard you sing!"

and Angel; (as WR&H collapses) "Time to go!"

Eve; "Go WHERE?"

also where else on TV would you get the line, Angel "The Fell Breathren, I want the baby returned to its' mother and the foster family dismembered"

Subverting the Hollywood cliché; Lorne kills Lindsey, the clown becomes a tragic figure, much as in King Lear, his leaving incredibly poignant. We think Lindsey might actually be redeemed but instead he gets two in the chest.

Kills; In the course of 5 seasons AI kill over 300 beings and they're the good guys! Most violent show on TV by a long chalk! For exact figures see Angel FAQ

Recurring characters killed; Many made an incredible emotional journey's over the course of the show but when you think how Wes first appeared in 'Bad Girls' and how he dies here the contrast is INCREDIBLE! Yet totally believable, a tribute to both writers and actor. AI down to 4

And Lindsey? Ultimately Angel believes he's evil and Lorne agrees having heard him sing. I'm not sure if he's evil or just ruthlessly ambitious? If Angel hadn't taken over WR&H would he ever have come back to LA? Both he and Angel ignore the advice they gave each other at the end of Dead End and both pay for it.

People have pointed out that the only characters to feature in both the first and last eps of Angel;TS are Angel and Lindsey. But actually, excluding Buffy guest stars, the only regular or recurring characters to survive from the first season of the show to the end of the last episode are Angel, a dying Gunn and Kate who's off being a lesbian Assistant DA in New York.

Packing heat; Lorne kills Lindsey with a silenced pistol

Kinky dinky: Harmony and Hamilton get it on, Harmony gorgeous in her undies as Playboy fans can attest to. Wes wonders if he should spend his last day with Mistress Spanksalot, is she the person he referred to with the handcuffs in Over the Rainbow? Connor now thinks his fling with Cordelia 'Inappropriately erotic'. Lindsey comments that Eve is the one thing of his Angel never got his hands on, "Life of the Party'?

Captain Subtext; Illyria starts to show feelings for Wes and Gunn, maybe too late for both. Angel gives Marcus a hell of a hickey! When Angel boasts of his nice handwriting Connor replies "You girl!" Nice goodbyes between the gang. Angel tells Sebassis that if he wants to kill Spike then they may have to kiss. Angel tells Lindsey "I want you" but both decide he should rephrase. Illyria-as-Fred refers to Wes as 'My Wesley', just as Lilah calls him in 'Home'.

Guantanamo Bay; Angel and co discover that all the evil in the world is run by this secret society and decide to change things by slaughtering them all! Angel's killing Sebassis is particularly clever, a real Keyzer Soze moment.

Questions and observations; Angel turns the power of the senior partners against them, taking the power of Marcus' blood and using it to defeat him. Does this now mean that Angel is a child of the senior partners? What happens to Eve? Where does Lorne go? Connor goes from a dislikeable character in season 3/4 to actually likable here. So wonderful to see Anne again, lovely touch. So if Angel has signed away his destiny to become human does that mean it's definitely Spike? Is that why Marcus is now prepared to kill Angel? Are Illyria's tears all part of her Fred illusion or are they real and for Wes? Who are the producers Jeff Bell thanks but is not allowed to mention? Wes says the first lesson of being a Watcher is to separate truth from illusion. On TV there's a small thank you scene to the fans at the end of the ep but not on the DVDs.

Marks out of 10; need you ask? 10/10 Jeff Bell thanks us for watching the series. No Jeff, thank you and everyone else for making it. Angel and co are still out there slaying the dragon. And so should we be. C'mon everybody let's go to work!

[cleo]

So I finally the next ep in my rewatch, Shiny Happy People. The relief- Cordelia and Connor are over, and with everyone bedazzled Connor is less annoying. Jasmine- it's a different take on a god after Glory, mildly interesting. I just reject the stuff about how she manouevered everyone from way back, so to me it just never happened, I can blot out this storyline lol. I find it offensive to think about how Cordelia/CC was treated. People rant about how awful Dawn and season 6 of Btvs is. This is how I feel about season 4 of angel. 

Every time I saw Angel in this striped yellow shirt it was a wtf moment lol. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by cleo

[VCRTracking]

I don't want to speak ill of the dead but Strega's Angel reviews on the now defunct Television Without Pity are absolute bullshit. They should have gotten someone else to recap the show who didn't absolutely loathe it's existence.

[illdoc]

https://tvline.com/2019/03/19/angel-reunion-david-boreanaz-revival-cast-20th-anniversary/

[Tenshinhan]

On 1/21/2019 at 2:26 AM, VCRTracking said:

I don't want to speak ill of the dead but Strega's Angel reviews on the now defunct Television Without Pity are absolute bullshit. They should have gotten someone else to recap the show who didn't absolutely loathe it's existence.

That's interesting because it was Strega's recaps that first brought me to TWoP back in the day. I never got the impression that she hated the show.  I felt there was a healthy amount of snark for a show that could be so silly.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Amy Acker is guest starring on this week's episode of Grey's Anatomy (S15.E21: Good Shepherd). She is playing one of Derek's sisters, Kathleen.

[VCRTracking]

[TheView]

On 4/20/2019 at 4:47 PM, VCRTracking said:

I'm glad Charisma is setting the record straight 

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, TheView said:

I'm glad Charisma is setting the record straight 

Nice to know

[cleo]

I'm watching season 5. I saw it before years ago, but I don't remember much.

First couple eps seem good just bc it's not the dreck that was season 4. Hellbound is pretty good (I am a Spike fan, so I like him being here). I don't get caught up in implications for BtVS or all the complaints about the amulet.

Eve is irritating. The black cat is so cheesy it's ridiculous. Almost anything else would be better.

I don't really like the werewolf girl. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by cleo

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 6:18 PM, cleo said:

I'm watching season 5. I saw it before years ago, but I don't remember much.

First couple eps seem good just bc it's not the dreck that was season 4. Hellbound is pretty good (I am a Spike fan, so I like him being here). I don't get caught up in implications for BtVS or all the complaints about the amulet.

Eve is irritating. The black cat is so cheesy it's ridiculous. Almost anything else would be better.

I don't really like the werewolf girl. 

Now I like season 4, the Faith-hunts-Angelus arc is my favourite storyline on Angel. Hellbound is excellent, amazed at the level of gore they got away with, the scariest ep of Angel, up there with Hush.

 The black panther is awesome, Eve is pretty, Nina will grow on you.  

[cleo]

On 5/21/2019 at 5:30 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

The black panther is awesome, Eve is pretty, Nina will grow on you.  

We'll have to agree to disagree lol. I did like Hellbound. I also liked Lineage. Poor Wesley. They really foreshadow Fred's death- like every other ep she is in mortal danger. I like Illyria more than Fred. Not sure if that is a UO or not. 

Took me a while to figure out the guy in Fred's lab was the vampire on BtVS that tried to psychoanalyze Buffy. 

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, cleo said:

We'll have to agree to disagree lol. I did like Hellbound. I also liked Lineage. Poor Wesley. They really foreshadow Fred's death- like every other ep she is in mortal danger. I like Illyria more than Fred. Not sure if that is a UO or not. 

Took me a while to figure out the guy in Fred's lab was the vampire on BtVS that tried to psychoanalyze Buffy. 

Yep, Jonathon Woodward, a Joss Whedon triple. It was remarkable the way fans took to Ilyria

[moonshine71]

On 1/17/2019 at 12:32 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

People have pointed out that the only characters to feature in both the first and last eps of Angel;TS are Angel and Lindsey. But actually, excluding Buffy guest stars, the only regular or recurring characters to survive from the first season of the show to the end of the last episode are Angel, a dying Gunn and Kate who's off being a lesbian Assistant DA in New York.
 

Can we include Anne in that category? Seems she would fit in that category if Kate does, even more so since she was around since season 2 of Buffy.

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

Can we include Anne in that category? Seems she would fit in that category if Kate does, even more so since she was around since season 2 of Buffy.

Anne's not in the first ep or even season, she doesn't turn up until s2. 

[cleo]

Still watching season 5. Enjoyed Harm's Way. Soul Purpose- I feel like they've done too many episodes about people being caught in dreams. I also found the critters gross and had to look away. Even the fake stuff Fred pulled out of Angel's body seemed too gross. Maybe it's me today. 

I liked the dream where they gave Spike the cake, and the one where Wes tried to kill him. The one with Wes had a lot of weight bc of his    betrayal last season. 

[illdoc]

https://tvline.com/2019/06/18/angel-reunion-new-york-comic-con-david-boreanaz/

[VCRTracking]

[VCRTracking]

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I look forward to the EW reunions every year so YAY! One nice thing about having such a small core cast is that we got to hear from everyone. On a shallow note, I hated what Charisma and Amy were wearing. They're both still hot but a leotard with a flasher raincoat and a PVC dress?

I always love hearing what people took from the set. I remember SMG said that she kept the finial from the staircase at the Summers house because they always knocked it off during fight scenes.

[illdoc]

Someone's got a new job:  https://tvline.com/2019/07/29/legacies-season-2-cast-alexis-denisof-professor-vardemus/

[Joe Hellandback]

On 6/12/2019 at 2:01 AM, cleo said:

Still watching season 5. Enjoyed Harm's Way. Soul Purpose- I feel like they've done too many episodes about people being caught in dreams. I also found the critters gross and had to look away. Even the fake stuff Fred pulled out of Angel's body seemed too gross. Maybe it's me today. 

I liked the dream where they gave Spike the cake, and the one where Wes tried to kill him. The one with Wes had a lot of weight bc of his    betrayal last season. 

I loved that one, for the Honky Tonk and Pearl Necklace jokes alone. 

[illdoc]

https://tvline.com/2019/08/28/pandora-charisma-carpenter-cast-season-1-cw/

[DanaMB]

So, I’ve been bingeing this show, and just like with Buffy, I’m finding it hard to get through this last season. I know I’ll stick with it, because I really love the show and characters. However, I HATE this change to W&H. Everything is different, even the characters seem different to me and I’m not even referring to the reappearance of Spike. There are moments that remind me of previous seasons, but very few. I hope it gets better. I could stay up all night bingeing this show, now it feels like just something I need to get through and hope it pays off. 
 

I haven’t read this thread in order to avoid spoilers, but just like with Buffy I needed to vent. 

[cleo]

Which ep are you at? It's ok, kind of a blah season. But the finale for me is iconic but I remember my first watch through was disappointed. It doesnt really make sense why they're at WH.

I also liked one new  character alot towards the last half of the season but not sure you're there yet.

It is blah but also on rewatching the last season is so much better ( to me) than that whole grossness with Cordelia and Connor. I wont watch the eps about that story again, can't remember what season it was.

Edited November 15, 2019 by cleo

[DanaMB]

3 hours ago, cleo said:

Which ep are you at? It's ok, kind of a blah season. But the finale for me is iconic but I remember my first watch through was disappointed. It doesnt really make sense why they're at WH.

I also liked one new  character alot towards the last half of the season but not sure you're there yet.

It is blah but also on rewatching the last season is so much better ( to me) than that whole grossness with Cordelia and Connor. I wont watch the eps about that story again, can't remember what season it was.

I actually just finished season 5 tonight. The second half was so much better even though I still hated them in the corporate setting. I miss them all being in one small area like at the first office or the Hyperion. Having them all have their own office away from each other undermined their relationships for me. 
 

I don’t even want to think about Cordy and Connor. Just ugh. Glad they redeemed Connor in season 5, though. I really want to re-watch the series because I loved it that much, but I’d have to skip the Connor/Cordelia stuff. Also didn’t like the Jasmine storyline. 

[cleo]

Glad you liked the second half better. I loved Illyria, but I never was a big Fred fan so maybe that's why. I thought she was a vast improvement over Fred lol. I was disappointed there wasn't more time with her character.

Yeah the whole Jasmine thing sucked. That was my least favourite season. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by cleo

[shantown]

Actor J. August Richards comes out.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Comic Con is going to be free online this year due to COVID-19. This panel hasn't been assigned an official timeslot yet so be sure to check the Comic Con website in the next week or so!

Quote

LGBTQ Representation on TV
Featuring Jamie Chung (Once Upon A Time), Jamie Clayton (Roswell: New Mexico), Wilson Cruz (Star Trek: Discovery), Tatiana Maslany (Perry Mason), Anthony Rapp (Star Trek: Discovery), J. August Richards (Council of Dads, Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.), Harry Shum, Jr. (Shadowhunters) and Brian Michael Smith (9-1-1: Lone Star), moderated by TV Guide's Jim Halterman.  

[MagnusHex]

Angel S02E21: Through the Looking Glass

I think if I was in the position of a Queen for the first time in my life, I wouldn't miss the chance to shout "Off with their heads!" either. The opportunity was practically begging for reciting such a famous phrase. lol

Angel being vain with his hair was hilarious. I love how much Angel is loving being able to live a normal life (or a relatively normal one) in Pylea. Can't blame him for being tempted to stay. And of course, it's all fun and games until you have to swing the crebbil on some woman's head and let your friends see the monster in you.

It's poetic, this episode, using a looking glass title metaphor to reflect the feelings of Angel and Cordelia about themselves; Angel still sees the demon within him, while Cordy knows inside that she's no longer the posh and glamorous Queen Bee she once was in high school, and even her pursuit of being an actress has proven to be as degrading as her current princess outfit. I don't think Cordy is acting shallow here at all because of this; she might act all high-and-mighty after becoming the princess, but that's just her fooling around, having fun being glamorous again since high school. Let the girl have her fun.

Not sure what that says about Lorne though. Beheading? He can't be dead yet, right? lol

Anyway, I feel bad for Angel. I had thought that, with this arc being all comedic and lighthearted, his days of brooding and self-loathing about his inner demons are put on a hold for the rest of the season. Guess not. The way he's shaking in this episode from being reminded of whom he is, that's one tragic scene alright. 

Also, I never got to reflect on how the residents of Pylea see humans as the real monsters until now. This episode certainly indicates that. These demons almost act like they feel some kind of abhorrence towards humans, what with the fearsome Groosalugg turning out to be a strapping young human male. These demons might very well see Earth as the Hell dimension. Some of our own humankind would certainly agree on the hellish and demonic side of humanity.

Edited October 7, 2020 by MagnusHex

[MagnusHex]

Angel Season 2 Review

After a relatively successful series premiere, Angel season 2 proceeds to take the vague ideas of atonement and “help the helpless” in season 1 and adds layers to them. While Angel Investigations is now aware of what they must do to help people, it’s easy to paint such a goal with broad strokes and miss the point. In season 2, Angel (David Boreanaz) and Co. explore what it truly means to help others; while for Angel, he also goes on his own journey to find himself and discover what it truly means to be human. Both themes are the ways season 2 has taken a clearer approach on where it wants to go beyond the first season’s random and episodic monster-of-the-week format that bears too much similarity with Buffy’s earlier seasons. It’s a stronger direction that results in some very compelling storytelling and character examinations.

For Angel, even though he now has a clear end goal in mind where he has the chance to become human again, his path to discovering his humanity, on the other hand, is a long and arduous one. What does it mean to be human exactly beyond the literal sense? Is Angel simply Angelus with a conscience? Is he the bumbling Liam who was such a disappointment to his father? Or is he a combination of all three? Angel believes that inner demon within him has never left and he needs to control it, but the imposter Swami in Guise Will Be Guise suggests that the demon is already a part of his identity. In spite of the Swami’s artifice, his words ring true. All of Angel’s wrongdoings, all the lives he has taken and even the lives he has abandoned this season are all some part of him. Perhaps one could argue that Angelus is merely Liam’s subconscious darkness brought to surface, but that only means he’s still part of Angel’s “self” (much like how Spike is a romantic like William).

And so season 2 makes great strides in exploring these questions, especially through the use of Darla (Julie Bentz) and Drucilla (Juliet Landau), two walking embodiments of Angel’s past sins. Having learned of their return, Angel is once again entwined in the past rather than working towards the future. He’s once again filled with self-loathing when he becomes unable to save Darla from damnation in The Trial. She is the mirror to his past, so when he learns that there’s a chance to grant her peace, it makes sense that he associates her salvation with his own, believing that if he could free the woman who has sired him, he’s that much closer to unshackling himself from the past. Unfortunately, the past seems to have a way of haunting you in spite of your best efforts, and Drucilla comes knocking, reducing all his effort back to zero. This would spell Angel’s downfall as he feels helpless and trapped by his sins.

And during his attempt to once again clean up the mess caused by his past mistakes, Angel’s quest to regain humanity would be further stifled when he decides to abandon members of Wolfram & Hart to die in the hands of Darla and Drucilla, the two vampires that the law firm was responsible in summoning. This darkness in him is not a sudden thing. Aside from the same act of apathy he performed in the ’50s, as can be seen in Are You Now or Have You Ever Been, such a resentment against the unjust traces back to as early as the first season, Blind Date, when he expressed his frustration over not being able to fight the evil of the firm, lamenting how those rich and powerful are the ones who control the world. It’s something that’s very relevant outside the realm of fiction, so when I finally got to see him sticking it to the man, even if at the cost of his own humanity (and the lives Darla and Dru will inevitably harm), I couldn’t help but feel a little elated at the notion. It’s vigilante escapism that’s in the vein of neo-noir, a genre which Angel the Series very much belongs to with its femme fatale and blurred morality.

And yet, it never really reached that height of satisfaction that I would normally get from such vigilante fiction, probably because Angel’s empathy towards others is still a dominant voice amidst this dark period. His scheme to expose W&H’s crimes of fraud still results in helping out a homeless shelter during Blood Money, and even all the way until Epiphany, he has still made a conscious (or maybe subconscious) effort to help people unrelated to his revenge against W&H like Gene Rainey (Matt Champagne) in Happy Anniversary (though in fairness, Gene almost caused the end of the world, so Angel had to help). Admittedly, I was initially disappointed at the anticlimax of Angel not being any more competent than before he went dark (especially when W&H’s Lilah Morgan (Stephanie Romanov) and Lindsey McDonald (Christian Kane) are the ones who conveniently survive because of plot-armor), but looking back now, Angel holding back his full savagery is a clever subversion of your usual “fallen hero” trope, showing that he is more human than he realized, and that “unleashing the demon or darkness” within him isn’t something as simple as turning on “Evil Mode” on the villains. As long as he’s not drugged like in Eternity, that human soul in him would always be a part of his darkness and vice versa.

Angel would come to realize this ambivalence of human nature in Reprise, where the executive of W&H, Holland Manners (Sam Anderson), would inform him that humanity’s evil is what kept their law firm afloat, that humans contain the very evil he’s trying to fight against. So where do you go from there once you learn that there’s no point in protecting the good people from the bad guys because such selfishness are malevolence are inherent in all of us? Is there no meaning, no greater purpose to fighting evil then? That’s where Angel gets his epiphany in the aptly named Epiphany. Back in Blind Date in season 1, Angel said that he misses the moral clarity of Angelus, even if it was immoral clarity. At the lowest point of his life, he tries to lose his soul by sleeping with Darla and become Angelus again in Reprise; it doesn’t work. He look at what he has done, going as low as sleeping with the one woman who damned him, and he sees it as “perfect despair.” And when he realizes he could indeed save someone — Kate Lockley (Elisabeth Röhm), who’s also going through her own existential depression — it all clicks. If nothing he does matters, then all that matters is what he does in the present moment, now, today, like saving Kate instead of drowning in despair. There’s a dignified meaning in that small action, just as there was meaning in helping Anne Steele (Julia Lee) with her homeless shelter.

While I very much love that quote in the context of it, especially now that I have time to reflect on it, I still really don’t like how the rest of Epiphany was handled. It was “back to business as usual” as Angel and Co. fights some random demon unrelated to either W&H or Angel’s epiphany. Perhaps it is related in a meta sort of way — that none of it matters, and all there is left to do now is just go about your business and helping people as usual — but I still feel like the impact of the message was dampened by such incoherence, and it lacks the kind of solidarity where everything just clicks together nicely in Joss Whedon episodes. Metafictional constructs like these can always be a hit-or-miss due to interpretation, and a story that deliberately lacks impact just to prove a point can come off as pretentious.

Nevertheless, the incoherence of it isn’t too much of a problem when I consider what fantastic storylines it has left behind. Everything up ‘till the second-half of Epiphany has been a joyride, examining such spiritual themes of human nature and the cycle of abuse. The latter is also explored in areas outside of the Darla arc, such as Untouched where Bethany Chaulk (Daisy McCrackin), victim of a sexual abuse from her father, takes back the power from her father at the end instead. Charles Gunn (J. August Richards) has his own arc that’s more relevant to such an issue, particularly The Thin Dead Line, where Gunn chastises the drug dealer Jackson (Mushond Lee) for perpetuating the intolerance between the cops and the citizens on the street, cleverly subverting the usual idea of racial persecution from the police force by indicating that “the other side” is no better. It’s these kinds of storylines that really differentiate Angel from Buffy in a more mature way, tackling more serious subject matter that’s beyond the troubles of a teenager. That’s not to downplay how well-written Buffy’s storylines still are, but it is clear from such storylines that Angel is a more gritty adult drama that deals with issues like race, crime and justice (and even McCarthyism and racial purity in Are You Now or Have You Ever Been) rather than drug addiction and familial relationships.

Aside from the titular Angel, this season also examines the other characters in its second overarching theme: what does it mean to help people? While Angel is struggling with his own existential crisis, Cordelia Chase (Charisma Carpenter), Wesley Wyndam-Pryce (Alexis Denisof) and Gunn all have their own identity crisis as well. For Cordelia, she has become more sympathetic to the countless souls whose torment she experienced in the season 1 finale, To Shanshu in L.A. And while her acting career has taken off to great success, the show seems to suggest in Belonging that being vision-girl is a more fitting role for her as she can actually be of importance to people rather than just feeling important as an actress, not to mention that her role as the resident psychic doesn’t require her to degrade herself like she does for her acting gigs. And by the season 2 finale, There’s No Place Like Plrtz Glrb, she fully embraces this role by associating her visions as a part of her new identity.

For Wesley, after Angel fires his staff, he struggles in accepting the role of a leader, a role he uses to impress his father with little success. This is seen in an excellent phone conversation in Belonging that’s carried entirely by Alexis alone with all the emotional nuances that comes with it. But ultimately, in There’s No Place Like Plrtz Glrb, we see shadows of a more pragmatic (and perhaps a darker) Wesley take charge as a leader when he decides to sacrifice a few to save the many, something he chose to do as well in Buffy season 3 episode, Choices.

And finally, Gunn has to decide his own role between helping his own people in his home neighborhood and helping the clients of Angel Investigations. This character development traces back to his helplessness in season 1 where he feels that his actions inadvertently caused the deaths of people close to him like his sister, Alonna Gunn (Michele Kelly). In Belonging, Gunn learns that another of his friends, George (Darris Love) has died in the hands of a vampire while he’s off playing demon hunter with Angel. Considering that this guilt of his has been made clear this season since First Impressions, I wouldn’t have blamed him for leaving Angel permanently to protect his own family and friends. But instead, in the Pylea arc stretching over the tail-end of the season, he not only feels obligated to join Angel in his journey to another dimension, his earlier violent role in First Impressions has now changed into a more protective role where he seeks to help a bunch of rebels with a cause, something that undoubtedly bears similarities to his own vampire-slaying friends in his neighborhood.

This kind of striking character development is the reason that, in spite of its jarring change in tone and sudden departure from the Darla arc, the Pylea arc remains a strong part of the second season where all the characters learn more about themselves in this demon dimension. Appropriately, one of the episodes in this arc is also called Through the Looking Glass, signifying Angel and Co.’s journey to look into themselves and accepting whom they are, whether it’s Angel’s human side beneath the animal, Cordy’s responsibility as a psychic, Wesley’s capabilities as a leader or Gunn’s big brother protective nature. It’s undeniably one of the best ways to create a footnote for a season, summing up the characters’ best qualities.

Looking back on how I felt initially after finishing Angel season 2 and how I feel now writing this analysis, it’s easier to see why people love this season so much. It’s not just the compelling and morally ambiguous Darla arc but also all the little details in other episodes that strengthen the characters’ identities, having all of them confidently embracing whom they are as saviors of humanity fighting for justice in a corrupted world. Season 2 has now a clear identity of its own to move forward with pride. Where do we go from here in season 3? Surely it can only get better… right? Right? 😟

Oh well. At least season 5 is still widely considered to be the best.

Final Rating: 8.3/10

[DisneyBoy]

I'm three episodes into Sesson 5 and hoo boy....am I tired of this show.

Season 4 was a mess. The Cordelia plots made no sense...I still don't get why becoming part-demon made her capable of flying that first episode, or later light blasting baddies to death in the hotel....or going to "heaven" ...or whatever that was. And why did she have amnesia when she returned to Earth? Because....reasons? Well okay.

Her and Connor as a couple was gross. I can't believe the writers couldn't take the temperature of the audience on that one. It was so strange especially because they seemed to be pushing the Angel and Cordelia "romance" hard at the end of season 3. I wasn't shipping them by any means, but it was still bizarre to see them write her being willing to sleep with Connor just because he "had a hard childhood" and "the sky was raining fire". Oooookaaaayyy.

This shift to working at W&H could have been interesting but once again, its needlessly complicated and there are too many dangling plots.

I got tired of Spike by the end of Buffy. He ate the show and just "hung around" because he had fans and now he's here, but without Buffy to balance him somewhat. I'm tired of his whining and his faux British expressions (a "daft" once or twice an episode goes a looong way). Between him and Lor being weirdly cutesy (Angel cakes! Pumpkin pie!)...ugh....just speak like normal people please. Stop writing dialogue just to seem clever. I see now what Smallville was badly emulating. And I hate it here too.

This show just can't find its footing. And all the prophecies and amulets and demons start to blur together into a mush of "sure whatever, if you say so" narratives.

How exactly does everyone forget Connor but still understand how and why Cordy is in a coma? Why did they join the Firm if they were fearing for their lives about joining it and didn't know what that actually entailed? Why were those W&H books in Pylea? Who are TPTB and The Senior Partners? Why do I still have no idea what the logic behind their decisions are?

I'll finish it off but I'm not particularly enjoying it.

Edited January 15, 2021 by DisneyBoy

[Ambrosefolly]

I been rewatching parts of Season 4. While I find it uneven (though I thought it was better than Buffy season 7, which was running at the same time), I did love Wesley and Faith teaming up to track and bring back Angelus. It really showed the amount of character development they both had went through since season 1, and redeemed Wesley as a capable Watcher. 

UO: I ended up really enjoying Spike on the final season of Angel. I hated romantic lead Spike on Buffy, so it was a nice break for me. 

[Gigi43]

I've been rewatching old shows during lockdown. Over all I find Angel more rewatchable than Buffy. Angel s5 was weird given we don't know what the characters think happened, but I actually find it more annoying on Buffy no one cared their memories were changed for Dawn and had no inklings to want to know how exactly their memories would be different. Angel  s4 was my least favorite but I still watch a lot of the episodes, where as my least favorite of Buffy, 7, I can only watch maybe two episodes and I don't watch much of season 6 or all of s1, where as with Angel there's no season I only watch 2 episodes. I really enjoy Angel s1 as time goes by, even though it had the least amount of Gunn, who I loved (I thought Spike was great in s5 but Gunn got sidelined too much for my liking. Would have liked to see him in court again.)

 

Now that I've talked about the show itself, Charisma Carpenter dropped that Joss Whedon was a piece of shit to her and confirms he wasn't happy she was pregnant, which is really not a surprise. 

 

https://deadline.com/2021/02/buffy-star-charisma-carpenter-joss-whedon-was-abusive-and-harassing-on-set-supports-ray-fisher-1234691282/ 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Gigi43

[VCRTracking]

I do believe Joss wasn't nice but keep in mind during that year he had three shows going on at the same time. Along with Angel he had Firefly's 1st (which turned out to be it's only ) season and Buffy's last.  The former survive and the other had huge fan expectations and there was an enormous amount of pressure on him that particular year. It was also the first season after David Greenwalt left and Tim Minear was sent to work on Firefly. Joss originally had this whole storyline planned for the season which gets thrown completely out the window. Presumably it was Charisma who wanted to keep working so they can't just write Cordelia being away. They have to write her pregnancy in. Fans understandably hate Cordelia sleeping with Angel's teenage son and having a demon baby but that's the position they've been put in and Joss is the one who takes the heat. 

So while I think Joss was mean to her I don't think it was him just being an asshole.

Edited February 10, 2021 by VCRTracking

[shantown]

If he wasn’t able to competently handle managing multiple shows without taking his stress out on the cast, he should have stepped down from running one of them. Plenty of showrunners have to deal with unexpected issues requiring rewrites and are able to handle it like adults. 

[raven]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

Presumably it was Charisma who wanted to keep working so they can't just write Cordelia being away. They have to write her pregnancy in. Fans understandably hate Cordelia sleeping with Angel's teenage son and having a demon baby but that's the position they've been put in and Joss is the one who takes the heat. 

The storyline was written to punish CC and for no other reason.   Those of us watching it in real time years ago knew it.  Whedon couldn't come up with any other story?  Than he's a shitty writer.  Let's trash Cordy's character because Charisma wants to keep working.  What's wrong with wanting to keep working?  He didn't have to write in her pregnancy - I've watched lots of shows where the pregnancy is obviously being disguised, it's not a big deal.  Whedon got pissy and is an asshole, straight up. 

 

 

[Black Knight]

Plus he fired her once she gave birth. This wasn't about her wanting to continue to work and him honoring that, or she would have remained on the show. He just knew that legally he couldn't fire her while she was pregnant, so he just intentionally wrote shit for her during her pregnancy, while abusing her in other ways, and then shoved her out the door.