The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[angelwoody]

To a certain extent, they did try the "villain with a gripe" setup. S2 Greg/Owen/Growen had a completely legitimate reason to want to see Regina locked up or dead (Regina tried to kidnap him as a child and when that didn't work murdered his father!). One of the problems I think the writers ran into with this scenario (aside from the character being poorly written) is they realized that, to a certain extent, Growen was right; there exists no good reason that Regina should be roaming around free as a bird and not being held accountable for the countless people that she's killed (and the same goes for Rumpel)! But the writers don't want to acknowledge the fact that Regina is an evil narcissistic sociopath. They don't see her as evil at all, instead they see her as the biggest victim of all. She's just "damaged" and "misguided". I mean, the writers play off Regina's atrocities (which include mass murder and child abuse) as "Pfft, how can she possibly be held accountable when there are so many victims she lost count! LOLZ! Come on, audience, once your murder count exceeds the number that you can count with your hands, it gets automatically reset back to zero, am I right?!" The writers have their heads so far up Regina's ass that the story they've built over the last 3 years is that Regina is an evil sociopath who feels absolutely no remorse about anything she's done, but who is nevertheless now a "beloved" member of the hierarchy "because reasons" and because of that she deserves all the love.

 

What I find really ugly and absolutely galling is that at this point the message this show is sending out is that Regina (and Rumpel) can kill whomever they please and that no one can seek any justice, let alone retribution, because wanting justice against someone who harmed you, well, that is Eeeeeevul. Bringing up their wrong-doings? That makes you an insensitive asshole who deserves no mercy. Calling out Regina or Rumpel for everything they've done, calling them "monsters"? Well, that makes you the monster. That is the disturbingly twisted morality that they are fervently lauding on OUAT.

Which is why I hate that this is branded a "family show."  If you want to create a show that turns basic human morality on it's head so that good is bad and down is up, fine - but don't package it into fairy tales (which originated as a way to teach morality) aimed at children.  

[Mari]

I mean, maybe they could have done that with Greg, but NOPE, they decided to just focus on him being an evil asshole who deserves to get his shadow ripped out, never to be seen again. So much potential, gone.

 

 

To a certain extent, they did try the "villain with a gripe" setup. S2 Greg/Owen/Growen had a completely legitimate reason to want to see Regina locked up or dead (Regina tried to kidnap him as a child and when that didn't work murdered his father!). One of the problems I think the writers ran into with this scenario (aside from the character being poorly written) is they realized that, to a certain extent, Growen was right; there exists no good reason that Regina should be roaming around free as a bird and not being held accountable for the countless people that she's killed (and the same goes for Rumpel)! But the writers don't want to acknowledge the fact that Regina is an evil narcissistic sociopath.

 

I was holding out hope until the bitter end that "Home Office" was actually an organization started by the Darlings and spearheaded by Wendy, originally, in order to root out magic, particularly harmful magic.  Over the 100 years or so since it started, it grew and morphed into something slightly . . . else.  They recruit people harmed by magic because they have motive.

 

I think it was a horrifically bad choice to minimize Regina's deeds to make Gregowen into a simpler villain--it would have been a far richer story, and would have given them a great deal of opportunity to advance the "Regina is Reformed" storyline they were trying for. 

 

If they had gone with "Yes, look, Regina did those things, but she's changing." and combined it with a Regina who obviously felt guilty, but couldn't let Gregowen destroy the town, kidnap Henry, steal the town beans . . . .  It would have been a better story, and it would have allowed them to focus on Regina like they wanted--in a way that seems more organic than "Regina's awesome because of reasons!  Who cares about villages!  Or fathers!"

 

It just baffles me that they're so blind to their own story and possibilities.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Mari

[regularlyleaded]

If they had gone with "Yes, look, Regina did those things, but she's changing." and combined it with a Regina who obviously felt guilty, but couldn't let Gregowen destroy the town, kidnap Henry, steal the town beans . . . .  It would have been a better story, and it would have allowed them to focus on Regina like they wanted--in a way that seems more organic than "Regina's awesome because of reasons!  Who cares about villages!  Or fathers!"

 

It just baffles me that they're so blind to their own story and possibilities.

IA. If the writers really wanted to get Regina on the real path to redemption, having her actually feel bad for what she did to Growen and his father would've been the perfect time for that. But they did the absolute opposite. She didn't feel bad about any of it and Regina actually rubbed it in Growen's face that she killed his father. She took delight from delivering the information. And yet we're meant to feel bad for Regina. Ha! That's just more evidence that A&E don't see her as a criminal but rather the victim.

 

And BTW, to add insult to injury, in that same episode Snow uses a potion made from Regina's tears to try and locate her and ends up only feeling Regina's pain instead. You guys, literally no one else's pain except for Regina's matters (JFC, talk about Regina-Sue fanfiction).

 

...How the ABC marketing convinced us all (myself included) to come back and watch season 3 is beyond me. I claim temporary insanity.

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God, I cant believe I forgot about the "Regina's magic tears of pain" potion. That sounds more like a parody than something that actually happened, it is that ridiculous. I would say it sounds like fanfic, but that would be an insult to fanfic writers everywhere. Like, that's one of those things that is just so horrible, its hysterically funny (unlike the whole whitewashing the bad guys pasts of murder, rape, and mayhem, which is just horrible). Like, her pain is just SO MUCH BIGGER than everyone else ever. I mean, off the top of my head, I can name like 20 fictional characters who have had crappier lives than Regina, and are still 100 times better people. Hell, I can name multiple characters in this show who have had crappier lives, and are still better people. But Regina's magic tears of sadness say HER PAIN IS BEST (not that its a contest or anything, but geeze writers. Have some perspective).

 

It really is some kind of miracle that I stuck around after that. These writers are damn lucky the actors are so good here, and for those slimmer's of brilliance that appear every once in a blue moon...

Edited September 26, 2014 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

 

But Regina's magic tears of sadness say HER PAIN IS BEST.

Didn't the tears work with anyone's though? I thought Mr. Gold just stockpiled them in case he needed to make potions.

[tennisgurl]

You might be right, its been awhile. The last half of season two was sort of a blur. A stressful, surreal blur.

 

Now I remember how Mr. Gold had them like, stock piled. She cries so much, its easy!

 

But yeah, I totally agree, Greg could have been the "villain with a rightful grudge", but they just dropped the ball, and made him completely unsympathetic. Almost like they were retroactively justifying what Regina did him. And that's just messed up.

[Amerilla]

Didn't the tears work with anyone's though? I thought Mr. Gold just stockpiled them in case he needed to make potions.

 

It's not like Regina tears are a rare commodity. 

 

They didn't really explain it all that well, whether it was for spells or not - it was just a pulled-out-of-the-arse plot device to allow Snow to find Regina by feeling her pain. Or something like that.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They didn't really explain it all that well, whether it was for spells or not - it was just a pulled-out-of-the-arse plot device to allow Snow to find Regina by feeling her pain. Or something like that.

Well, she was supposed to be able to be in Regina's shoes - see what she sees, feel what she feels, smell what she smells, etc. For some reason it was vague and she couldn't see. Maybe the shock torture was getting in the way? I don't know. Point is, it was supposed to show more than Regina's pain. The only reason they were able to pinpoint her location was because Snow smelt sardines.

 

2B was such a blur, so I'm surprised I remembered that.

Edited September 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[ShadowFacts]

 

IA. If the writers really wanted to get Regina on the real path to redemption, having her actually feel bad for what she did to Growen and his father would've been the perfect time for that. But they did the absolute opposite. She didn't feel bad about any of it and Regina actually rubbed it in Growen's face that she killed his father. She took delight from delivering the information. And yet we're meant to feel bad for Regina. Ha! That's just more evidence that A&E don't see her as a criminal but rather the victim.

 

Let's not forget that she also smirked when told that Growen was dead.  That always sticks in my craw when thinking of Regina's "redemption" arc.  She is totally sadistic through and through but still admirable, no?

[KingOfHearts]

 

She is totally sadistic through and through but still admirable, no?

She smiled when she threatened to rip Zelena's heart out, then smiled again when she put the pendant away. Not even 3B removed the sadism, and it was Regina's Finest Hour! Rumple probably hasn't changed either.

Edited September 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

 

It's not like Regina tears are a rare commodity.

Yeah Rumple probably just went down to the Enchanted Forest's version of the Pacific Ocean, with a bucket.

[Camera One]

And BTW, to add insult to injury, in that same episode Snow uses a potion made from Regina's tears to try and locate her and ends up only feeling Regina's pain instead. You guys, literally no one else's pain except for Regina's matters (JFC, talk about Regina-Sue fanfiction).

 

The purpose was also to punish Snow for murdering Regina's beloved mother.

[stealinghome]

It's not like Regina tears are a rare commodity.

Yeah Rumple probably just went down to the Enchanted Forest's version of the Pacific Ocean, with a bucket.

No lie, I have this incredibly vivid memory of watching that episode, and when Snow said to Rumpel "Why do you have Regina's tears??" all shocked-like, I was like "PROBABLY BECAUSE THE FLOOD WAS GOING TO RUIN HIS SHOP AND HE HAD TO BAIL HIMSELF OUT." Seriously. Like it's that hard to get ahold of one.

[Writing Wrongs]

I think the reason I can tolerate Rumpel more than Regina is that I think his backstory and character are written better. Rumpel started out trying to save Bae and got tricked into becoming The Dark One and now he refuses to completely change. It's his crutch and he admits it. Yes, he's killed and manipulated people. But I still kinda like him. And Robert Carlyle is a great actor.

 

Regina started off good (and I loved her Stable Boy backstory), but then chose to blame a child for all her problems. And has done horrible things because of it. Yes, Rumpel has manipulated her and her mother had manipulated her. I just don't find her character development or lack thereof that interesting. It's the same old thing. Now she blames Emma and Marian for her problems and chooses to go evil again. Big surprise.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Writing Wrongs

[Serena]

I mean, if you compare Rumple and Regina's angst in the latest episode, one was about his dead son, the other was about how she didn't get to kill the wife of her boyfriend of two days. And which one was portrayed as more pitiful and deserving of our compassion? Regina. Her three-day relationship breaking up was given more screentime and more commiseration by other characters than Rumple's son dying (and I include all eps here, not just the premiere). So it's not difficult to see why Rumple is generally more tolerable.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Serena

[Mari]

I mean, if you compare Rumple and Regina's angst in the latest episode, one was about his dead son, the other was about how she didn't get to kill the wife of her boyfriend of two days. And which one was portrayed as more pitiful and deserving of our compassion? Regina. Her three-day relationship breaking up was given more screentime and more commiseration by other characters than Rumple's son dying (and I include all eps here, not just the premiere). So it's not difficult to see why Rumple is generally more tolerable.

I think there are several reasons, and motive is the first really  biggie.

 

You're right--Rumple has a far more legitimate and sympathetic motive. He lost his much beloved child, with no chance of ever seeing him again.  That's a far more devastating event than losing the boyfriend you've made out in the woods with a few times.  It just is.

 

A lot of it is performance, though, too.  Carlyle shades his performance, so you often see that while Rumple is doing evil things, he knows what he's doing isn't right, even if he thinks it's necessary.  He almost never portrays Rumple as self-pitying.  Rumple comes across more sympathetically partially because the show doesn't continually demand we feel sorry for him.

 

Parilla's performances usually don't seem shaded.  Regina seems to go from ANGRY to SAD to SELF-PITYING to EVIL with little to no transition, and few nuances.  Regina's portrayed as someone we're supposed to feel sorry for--and who continually feels sorry for herself, and usually over things that are ordinary life things that everyone deals with without mass murder or kidnapping.

[Camera One]

Sadly, even his performance was a total dud in the Season 4 premiere due to the pathetic writing.  I can't reconcile that supposedly genuine tearful scene at Bae's gravesite with the despicable action of magically freezing the wife he professes to love.  

Edited September 30, 2014 by Camera One

[kili]

I can't reconcile that supposedly genuine tearful scene at Bae's gravesite with the despicable action of magically freezing the wife he professes to love.

 

I can. He's an addict. He's like the woman I knew who would quit smoking on Monday Morning and by Tuesday afternoon, she was digging through her car's ashtray to find a butt big enough to smoke. He's used magic for 300 years. He doesn't even stop to think that freezing Belle might be an issue. It's just how he rolls. And stealing it back from her that night is okay too because he needs "just one little more drink. Just this once. To calm his nerves. Then he'll stop. Really. He can stop any time."

 

He needs Magic Anonymous.

[Mari]

I can. He's an addict. He's like the woman I knew who would quit smoking on Monday Morning and by Tuesday afternoon, she was digging through her car's ashtray to find a butt big enough to smoke. He's used magic for 300 years. He doesn't even stop to think that freezing Belle might be an issue. It's just how he rolls.

And the only thing he really fears is losing Belle, who's enabled him so very much that he probably doesn't see that as a risk--apart from when she left him and he thought she was dead, she's very quickly forgiven him or overlooked it.  Even that time he can tell himself wasn't her choice; Regina was holding her captive.

 

Unlike Nealfire, who would actually leave if Rumple was abusing people with magic, Belle stays.  No matter what he does to other people.  What actual day to day motive does he have to quit?

Edited September 30, 2014 by Mari

[Camera One]

Those could explain Rumple's mindset, but the writers are kidding themselves if they think a Beauty and the Beast dance complete with the original costumes and music from the animated movie would make me swoon over the supposedly epic romance.  

[Mari]

Those could explain Rumple's mindset, but the writers are kidding themselves if they think a Beauty and the Beast dance complete with the original costumes and music from the animated movie would make me swoon over the supposedly epic romance.  

Sorry.  That wasn't for us.  That was for the Frozen newbies. 

 

Regina repeatedly looking sad was for us.

[Jean]

Robert puts a heavy dose of self-loathing into Gold/Rumple. But it's nuanced and subtle. If he were constantly scene chewing it'd get tiresome but he's talented enough not to default to over the top in your face emoting. He lets you "digest" his character rather than shoving it down your throat.

One of my favorite scenes in the horrific S2 was his conversation with Snow when she asked him how he lived with himself. I think that pretty much sums him up. I have no idea why they stopped writing for Rumple and his relationships with Snow, Charming and Emma. They were all different but interesting and complicated. Now all he gets to do is moon over Belle, which I guess is still the lesser of evils.

[stealinghome]

I have no idea why they stopped writing for Rumple and his relationships with Snow, Charming and Emma. They were all different but interesting and complicated.

It's doubly baffling to me given that the show is determined to shove Regina down the Charmings' throats. Is it really that one more scene with Rumpel=one less scene with Regina, so obviously we can't have the first?

[Camera One]

To me, they had more than enough scenes with Rumple in the premiere... it was just that these scenes were segregated from everyone else.  I do want Regina's scenes given to someone else, but that would not be Rumple for me.

 

They've been segregating Rumple into his own subplot since the Season 3 premiere, and it continued with the Season 4 premiere.  The writers know they need to separate him from the rest, since he could easily solve everyone's problems; in this case, defeating the snow monster easily AND identifying Elsa as the culprit AND telling everyone her entire story.  So he's segregated with Belle yet again.  At least it's not Vision Belle, but the real version isn't much better.  

 

Between Regina and Rumple, the villains eat up screentime on this show like Pac-Man at a buffet, except this season, there's a giant chunk of Frozen Ice in the middle of the table the Villain Pac-Man can't eat.  Yet.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

I can. He's an addict. He's like the woman I knew who would quit smoking on Monday Morning and by Tuesday afternoon, she was digging through her car's ashtray to find a butt big enough to smoke. He's used magic for 300 years. He doesn't even stop to think that freezing Belle might be an issue. It's just how he rolls. And stealing it back from her that night is okay too because he needs "just one little more drink. Just this once. To calm his nerves. Then he'll stop. Really. He can stop any time."

 

Rumple and Belle are starting to remind me of Willow and Tara in Buffy season 6, and when something reminds you of Buffy season 6, it's most likely not a good sign. Of course, Tara had enough self-respect to leave a person who was messing with her using her powers (IIRC, she deleted part of Tara's memory, which is, in essence, the same thing - using magic to help you lie to your S.O.). Also, the magic addiction part... Well, you probably know how it ended. Although if it means Belle will be gone by the end of the season, I'm so down for it!

[Mari]

Robert puts a heavy dose of self-loathing into Gold/Rumple. But it's nuanced and subtle. If he were constantly scene chewing it'd get tiresome but he's talented enough not to default to over the top in your face emoting. He lets you "digest" his character rather than shoving it down your throat.

One of my favorite scenes in the horrific S2 was his conversation with Snow when she asked him how he lived with himself. I think that pretty much sums him up. I have no idea why they stopped writing for Rumple and his relationships with Snow, Charming and Emma. They were all different but interesting and complicated. Now all he gets to do is moon over Belle, which I guess is still the lesser of evils.

I have to agree.  Not having seen Parilla in anything else, I can't speak to how gifted a performer Parilla is generally, but it seems like many of Regina's scenes have one emotion very heavily projected--usually vengeful, angry, sad, triumphant, or evil--with no other emotion layered in there.  It's not "Regina's angryregretfulnervous"  it's "Regina's ANGRY"  now she's SAD,  with minimum transition.

 

I think it's another thing that limits how sympathetic some of us are to Regina--it's rare to get a feeling of "Regina's doing this, but is regretting it." because the evil and angry parts are played with such excitement and relish.  Regina almost never seems to be reluctantly overriding her conscience, because she's sure her cause is righteous.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think it's another thing that limits how sympathetic some of us are to Regina--it's rare to get a feeling of "Regina's doing this, but is regretting it." because the evil and angry parts are played with such excitement and relish.  Regina almost never seems to be reluctantly overriding her conscience, because she's sure her cause is righteous.

 

That's how I feel.  She wouldn't set my teeth on edge quite so much if we saw her wrestling with things once in awhile.  It would help to have her talk things out with someone like Archie like she did once (am I making that up?).  Plus, as you say, Mari, there is one strong emotion projected, there isn't any nuance.  Adding tears welling in the eyes does not equal nuance to me. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

It would help to have her talk things out with someone like Archie like she did once (am I making that up?)

She talked to Archie in The Doctor, when she was fasting off of magic. The discussion led to Daniel, then Dr. Whale stormed into the room demanding to be taken back to his land.

Edited September 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[ShadowFacts]

Thank you, KingOfHearts, I thought I remembered that but I'm not great at searching.

[Shanna Marie]

I think it's another thing that limits how sympathetic some of us are to Regina--it's rare to get a feeling of "Regina's doing this, but is regretting it." because the evil and angry parts are played with such excitement and relish.  Regina almost never seems to be reluctantly overriding her conscience, because she's sure her cause is righteous.

Yeah, every time she's hurting someone, except perhaps when she was murdering her father, she seems to be having so much fun doing so. Even when she's "good," she seems to get a thrill out of saying nasty or tacky things.

 

There are also the times when it's almost like the script, the directing/acting and the music are on totally different wavelengths. Like near the end of "Kansas" when Regina has her "finally I win" moment. Apparently, according to the writers, they really did mean that to be Regina realizing that being on the good side was nice and having a moment of satisfaction. But the line was delivered with such evil, sneering relish that the subtext was entirely "mwa ha ha ha!" And then the composer seems to have picked up on that and made the music ominous. So when Regina's "Yay, I get to be a hero, and it's cool!" moment is delivered as though the line is "And now they shall all feel my wrath!" it's really hard to believe that she's actually redeemed and not working some long con to get them to drop their guard with her. If Regina's supposed to be showing any self-awareness, it's not coming through at all.

 

In contrast, I don't get the feeling that Rumple is actually having fun doing evil except in those moments when he gets really caught up in it and totally unleashing himself. Most of the time, he has that abuser attitude of "Look what you're making me have to do, how could you do that to me?"

[Camera One]

In contrast, I don't get the feeling that Rumple is actually having fun doing evil except in those moments when he gets really caught up in it and totally unleashing himself. Most of the time, he has that abuser attitude of "Look what you're making me have to do, how could you do that to me?"

 

Maybe not fun, but still sadistic satisfaction, such as when he killed Tamara and Zelena, and beating up the Sheriff of Nottingham.  

[stealinghome]

I think Rumpel definitely derives satisfaction from torturing/murdering people, but it tends to be (tends to be, isn't always) people who he feels have personally wronged him in some way. Whereas Regina clearly gets off on torturing *anyone*, it doesn't matter if she has any clue who they are or if they've done anything (or nothing) to her.

That's why, between the two of them, if I had to pick my poison, I'd pick Rumpel. He's more deadly when angered, but he's also far less likely to decide you looked at him wrong and rip your heart out for it.

[Camera One]

He's more deadly when angered, but he's also far less likely to decide you looked at him wrong and rip your heart out for it.

 

Unless you accidentally bump into his son... or you accidentally overhear his private conversations... or he needs something of yours...  he too can be rather capricious. 

 

Regina's wrath has generally applied to anyone Snow-related/on Snow's side, her henchmen when they don't deliver, or someone who has something she needs/wants.

[Anakerie]

*dying laughing* Apparently the British are prepared to offer Rumple their first-borns in exchange for free WiFi. Or so Yahoo seems to be implying...this totally made my morning.

 

http://crampedsultana.tumblr.com/image/98881965936

[Camera One]

KingofHearts commented in the "White Out' thread about the danger of the Ice Cream store owner, presumably the Snow Queen, could be similar to early 3B with Zelena.  

 

I'm kind of worried about the same thing.  In 3B, there were 4 episodes where the main characters were unaware who the Wicked Witch was.  I generally find it quite frustrating to watch when the viewer knows who the baddie is and their manipulations, while the main characters are clueless and in the dark.  I think it works better when we know who the villain is AND the characters find out at the same time, like Peter Pan in 3A.  

 

Of course, Phase 2 of 3B was equally frustrating.  This was when the characters knew Zelena was the Witch, but they didn't know her plans and they were powerless against her.  That was akin to 2B when everyone was powerless against Cora pretty much until her death episode and 3A when they couldn't score a win against Peter Pan until seven episodes in.  

 

I hope we won't get a string of episodes where the Snow Queen undermines the characters without them knowing, followed by a bunch of episodes where they know about her but she has the upper hand.  I would like to see a well-planned, gradual, progressive and intelligent defeat of a villain where everyone gets an equal role in defeating them.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The woman touches her ice cream in order to make it. That's just evil. She's beyond redemption to me at this point. You can't come back from destroying ice cream. I would have loved it if Henry had included the evil ice cream in Regina's creepy break up basket though. It would have been quite fitting.

[Rumsy4]

The woman touches her ice cream in order to make it. That's just evil. She's beyond redemption to me at this point. You can't come back from destroying ice cream.

No, what pushed her beyond redemption was the fact that she touched the ice-cream After she had made it. That's just callous, and worse than Regina's village masaacre. After all, poor Regina at least had a reason.

On a more serious note, I am beyond excited for Elizabeth Mitchell's Snow Queen. I hope she takes the spot vacated by Cora as the best short-term villain of the series (until Bleeding Through, that is).

[FurryFury]

hope she takes the spot vacated by Cora as the best short-term villain of the series (until Bleeding Through, that is).

 

Bleeding Through was just a vision sent by Cora to Snow to fuck up with her mind. That's my version and I'm sticking to it.

[JAYJAY1979]

I'd rather they had focus on Malifient as the new villianess instead of latching onto the Frozen craze... yawn.

[jhlipton]

The purpose was also to punish Snow for murdering Regina's beloved mother.

 

Who that same day had thrown Snow's beloved nanny out of a clock tower.  So, yeah, Boo freakin' hoo to Snow "murdering" Cora (who was trying to kill them all at the time, as I recall).

[Camera One]

The villains on this show really gives me chills.  I mean, creating a puddle around your car?  I don't know how I'm going to sleep tonight without having nightmares.

[KAOS Agent]

I love that that was pretty much Hook's reaction. A puddle? Seriously, Emma? This Snow Queen is a dangerous bitch what with her puddles and using her finger to taste test the ice cream.

[scarynikki12]

I really, really hope that Henry working with Regina and Rumpel leads him to become a villain.  It's the only logical conclusion to his current attitude and world view.  It would also be really interesting to see if villain Henry would lead to some self awareness for Regina.  I won't hold my breath on that last part but it would be beneficial to Regina's redemption for her to see the negative impact her villainous choices have as an influence on Henry. 

[HoodlumSheep]

IMO, the DQ seems to be a mix of Cora and Rumple. A Powerful lady trying to convince Elsa/Emma that people will never accept them because of their magic, much like how Cora was trying to convince Regina. Except the DQ doesn't seem to be causing as much external damage, and looks like she's got mad mind game skills like Rumple.

[Rumsy4]

Henry turning evil may be the wake up call Regina needs. That crazy kid's been buying into her shady morality so much lately, it's inevitable his world-view becomes tainted. Regina seemed upset when she heard that Henry had hurt that Lost Boy in Neverland, so I think she'll be horrified to find how deep Henry has fallen. And maybe Emma will understand that she should not coddle Regina so much.

[KingOfHearts]

DQ's subtly is my favorite quality of her so far. She is so incredibly shady, and you can tell she's not just a two-dimensional Big Bad. The irony of someone as mild as Elizabeth Mitchell portraying her is the icing on the cake.

[Mari]

Henry turning evil may be the wake up call Regina needs. That crazy kid's been buying into her shady morality so much lately, it's inevitable his world-view becomes tainted. Regina seemed upset when she heard that Henry had hurt that Lost Boy in Neverland, so I think she'll be horrified to find how deep Henry has fallen. And maybe Emma will understand that she should not coddle Regina so much.

I'm very much hoping this is what will happen. I just don't trust A&E to actually see what we're seeing -- too often they've thought something was just fine when, well, it kinda wasn't. We keep looking and thinking creepy, but they could easily be thinking how fabulous it is that Henry and Regina are getting back on track with each other.

[Jean]

 

It's the only logical conclusion

Which automatically means A&E reject this kind of thinking.

 

 

This Snow Queen is a dangerous bitch what with her puddles

Emma could've been wearing some Jimmy Choos boots and that puddle could've ruined it. That's pretty heinous.

 

 

DQ's subtly is my favorite quality of her so far.

Yeah I love it too but that's probably cause it's so refreshing on this show where the constant scene chewing would do termites proud. It wouldn't be as effective if that was the norm. It's the same with Anna. On this show, it's refreshing cause it's rare. On any other show she'd be annoying as hell.

[Jean]

 

LOL I can just see Hans being all "It wasn't my fault! My brothers teased me!" I did love the scenes with him and his brothers.

 

Yeah, moral ambiguity isn't what Once does, but does it seem like they try to present it that way? I read the way they present characters like Regina and Rumple as being like, "Look! Everything isn't black and white!" It is kinda fractured.

I loved the Hans scene too and I also like Hans. But that's cause he's allowed to remain, well douchebag Hans.

 

As for the moral ambiguity they pretty much have 2 strategies. For Rumple, I feel it's true blue moral ambiguity. He does bad things but he didn't start out that way and his evil deeds are for a pretty good purpose, reuniting with his kid. Even then no one besides dim bulb Belle is patting him on the back for it. Not even Neal, the only one who matters to him.

 

The other strategy which I find distasteful is to tear down the good guys and make them seem evil and victimized the other party and the "villain's" misdeeds are whitewashed and they pretend it never happened. Basically I don't believe Woegina discussion would ever fall under the topic of villainy because A&E clearly don't see her as a villain. She's the heroine of their piece. Their Twilight Bella if you will. And anything surrounding her also gets distorted, see Cora and Eva and Cora and Snow. I'm still mad about Cora by the way. They ruined a perfectly good villain.

 

But yes I agree with you, A&E love to pat themselves on the back for how creative and edgy and complicated their material and characters are. It's all hogwash. They tout complex and grey but that's not really true.

 

If this show really did moral ambiguity, it'd be a good show, not a shitty crack habit we can't break from.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Jean

[Camera One]

Regina, Rumple, Zelena and Peter Pan are not villains.  There are only five villains on this show, and their acronym is BELSS.  The Blue Fairy, Eva, Leopold, Snow and Spinster Ladies.  Between the five of them, they pushed people into villainhood and caused domino effects which created all the villains on this show.  We can probably eventually add the Sorcerer to the list since he probably unwittingly created the First Dark One by hurting his feelings and damaging his self-worth.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Camera One