The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[ImogenLeFay]

Rumple's redemption arc sailed and sunk in Neverland. When he sacrificed himself to kill Pan, that was as far as he went. Since then, it's been Jekyll and Hide like Camera One said.

 

It's pity Nealfire had to bring him back. I thought it was a really good end for Rumpel's story, redemption through death or whatever the trope name was. Since they brought him back, he's been such a mess, it's not even entertaining anymore.

[daxx]

It's pity Nealfire had to bring him back. I thought it was a really good end for Rumpel's story, redemption through death or whatever the trope name was. Since they brought him back, he's been such a mess, it's not even entertaining anymore.

To be honest the only part of his arc I found entertaining was Colin portraying Rumple masquerading as Hook.

[kitticup]

What's really a shame is how the writers rushed through all the rich material they had set up. The great sacrifice could have been at the end of the series. There should have time for the characters to react to the curse being broken, for Rumple finding his son and then fir the reconciliation. Instead it is all rushed.

[Curio]

What's really a shame is how the writers rushed through all the rich material they had set up.

 

Right? I actually thought Robert was at his best in 4B during "Darkness on the Edge of Town" where Rumple was forced to eat ramen and beg on his knees after Ursula literally knocked him down a peg. I don't understand why the writers didn't allow Rumple to stay outside of Storybrooke a lot longer in that state. Seeing a stripped down Rumple for multiple episodes would have made his quest to find the author at the end of the season seem more pressing and urgent because we could have seen him suffering more. Unfortunately, like the writers often do with Regina, they rushed his screen-time-suffering and made him too powerful too quickly again.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Curio

[LizaD]

 

The great sacrifice could have been at the end of the series.

 

Well I do think that was the "end game" they had in mind for Rump. It sounds exactly like what Robert prefers too. But I think they let that scenario play out so early because they were already plotting Neal's death and that scene only works with Neal and for Neal.

 

 

I don't understand why the writers didn't allow Rumple to stay outside of Storybrooke a lot longer in that state. Seeing a stripped down Rumple for multiple episodes would have made his quest to find the author at the end of the season seem more pressing and urgent because we could have seen him suffering more.

 

Because they need Rump as the mover and shaker. No one else can fill that role, of moving plot, for them like he does. The other complication is if they have Rump outside of Storybrooke for several episodes, other characters would need to be there with him and there were no candidates. The QoD were pegged for Snowing, Woegina and author plots. They're clearly not interested in Robin outside of being a prop for Woegina. Zelena was their "shocker" reveal. They already have too many new characters to give Rump a separate group to play with. They can't fit in a real story for Rump with what they chose to do with 4B. Presumably they'll do that exact scenario of a stripped down Rump for 5A.

[Camera One]

The Queens of Darkness didn't get their own thread like Frozen did, so I'll post this here.

 

I was just watching a video of the Calgary Expo with the 3 actresses playing the Queens, plus Lana, and it was nice to see how much fun the three of them had.  Merrin Dungey in particular brought up specific scenes they filmed, and gave more information about the experience of playing them out.  It was funny how she described how Josh and Ginny immediately reacted to her invisible tentacles.

[Curio]

I was going to post this in the All Seasons thread, but I think it's better suited for the character discussions. From another thread:

Two villains who centered their lives around revenge for losing their lover on the path to redemption. [Hook and Regina] may have more in common than you'd think.

Dark, raven hair. A quick temper and a strong personality. Snarky comments. A tendency to dress in all black. Cleavage. Used to be good and a bit naïve in their youth. As a young adult, a magical villain killed their lover right in front of them by crushing their heart. The death of their lover forced them onto a dark path and they became a fearsome villain, hell-bent on vengeance and destroying their foe. Lived extra years because of magic. Teamed up with Cora for a period of time. Used Belle as a means of getting back at Rumplestilskin. They have an interesting history being an adoptive parental figure for a child who only saw them as a villain. They have made extremely selfish decisions. After some motivational speeches by Emma, they’re now on the path to becoming a hero.

 

On paper, you can’t tell whether or not I’m talking about Hook or Regina. They have a surprising amount of similarities between the two of them, but somehow, one of these characters turned into one of my all-time favorite fictional characters, and the other has become so repulsive to me that I feel the need to fast forward through every scene they’re in. Looking at that long list of similarities, how does that even happen?

 

At their cores, Hook and Regina are just opposites. One has too much self-awareness that it turns into self-loathing; the other can’t even physically comprehend self-awareness because they have narcissistic personality disorder. One is content owning one outfit and living in small quarters; the other has a grandiose closet full of pantsuits, regal dresses, and lives in a mansion. One was willing to give up their life-long vengeance quest and turn over a new leaf without too much prodding from others; the other still struggles to help others unless there’s something in it for them. One managed to find happiness on their own; the other requires the tireless work of others to find that happy ending for them. One knows exactly what their happy ending is and is willing to travel multiples realms and die to protect that happy ending; the other is so fickle about their happy ending that it changes with each season, and even when that happy is within reach via a simple magical scroll or a telephone call, they don’t fight for it. One still struggles to convince Emma’s family that they’re entirely good; the other has Emma’s entire family cheering them on the sidelines and reassuring them that they’re a good person. One is content putting their True Love before their own happiness, because if their True Love is happy they’re happy; the other isn’t happy unless everything right is going their way. One rolls with the punches (literally) and doesn’t complain about their lot in life; the other constantly complains about life kicking them in the teeth. One blamed the actual person who killed their lover and spent many years trying to get revenge on someone who's legitimately a dangerous psychopath; the other blamed an innocent 10-year-old and spent many years trying to get revenge on the wrong person. One doesn’t have magic; the other does. One is a subtle performance; the other is scene chewing.

 

It amazes me that the writers have barely allowed these two characters to interact with each other one-on-one for more than 40 episodes. Why didn’t Regina go straight to Hook during Operation Mongoose since he was a walking example of a villain who found his happy ending? Why did Regina only acknowledge Rumple as the only villain in town who managed to find his happy ending with Belle? Does the fact that Hook only owns one outfit, doesn’t have a home, doesn’t have a job, and doesn’t complain about many things blind Regina to the fact that he was actually very happy? Does it not compute in her brain that by just being with Emma, Hook had already found his happy ending? Does it have to come with a mansion, magic, and a bunch of devoted people brown-nosing to make it a “true” happy ending?

Edited September 15, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

It amazes me that the writers have barely allowed these two characters to interact with each other one-on-one for more than 40 episodes. Why didn’t Regina go straight to Hook during Operation Mongoose since he was a walking example of a villain who found his happy ending?

Because it would have killed their entire arc. As it was, Hook damaged it severely by managing to help restore Ursula's happy ending and saying that he'd found his own happy ending, in spite of him having almost nothing. If Regina had spoken to Hook about her theories, he'd have said something like, "Your happy ending? That's up to you, love." Or maybe, "You seem to still be breathing, love. Doesn't look much like an ending to me." And then they'd have needed a new 4B.

 

The comparison between the two is where my "Karma Kalculator" from the morality thread comes into play. Hook's current outcome seems appropriate for someone with his good deeds+suffering-evil deeds. If anything, he's got a more negative outcome at the moment than he would seem to deserve. He may have earned some respect from David and has some trust from Henry, and he has his ship back, but he's lost Emma, which was the most important thing to him. I'll go out on a limb and predict that he won't be claiming that what happened to Emma had anything to do with him or that this is ruining his happy ending. Meanwhile, Regina's current circumstances are way out of whack with her karma score, and yet she's complaining about it not being good enough. If they'd put the two of them together in a scene, the difference would be even more jarring.

 

I would say that both of them had different attitudes all along. Regina's anger at Snow was about ruining her (Regina's) life. Daniel only came up as the person Regina lost. It was never about avenging Daniel, but rather was getting vengeance for what happened to Regina in losing Daniel. Hook seemed to have been angry on behalf of Milah. Even in talking about his hand, it was an "and while we're at it" thing rather than the main thing he was angry about. He didn't talk about his own life being ruined, but rather he talked about what was done to Milah. As selfish as Hook was in his vengeance quest, in that he didn't think of what he was doing to the people he was using or hurting along the way, he didn't ever seem to be focused on what it meant for him (which may have made him even more ruthless, as he might have pushed harder on behalf of Milah than he would have done for himself), and that made his transition to good easier because he could still be focused on doing things on behalf of others. He was just doing more positive things for people who were still alive after realizing that his vengeance wasn't actually helping Milah. It's difficult for Regina to translate her focus on herself from evil to good because good is supposed to be unselfish.

[Rumsy4]

 

Why did Regina only acknowledge Rumple as the only villain in town who managed to find his happy ending with Belle? Does the fact that Hook only owns one outfit, doesn’t have a home, doesn’t have a job, and doesn’t complain about many things blind Regina to the fact that he was actually very happy? Does it not compute in her brain that by just being with Emma, Hook had already found his happy ending? Does it have to come with a mansion, magic, and a bunch of devoted people brown-nosing to make it a “true” happy ending?

 

That's a very interesting point. Circumstantially, Regina and Hook have many similarities, but I think Regina has a lot of personality traits in common with Rumple. Both like the power magic brings way too much. They both like having someone around calling them a hero and cheering for them all the time. Regina's preferred dwellings are castles and mansions. Rumple's EF dwelling was a castle. Presumably his house in Storybrooke is pretty grand as well, considering he owns most of the city. Much as Regina loaths Rumple, she looks up to him a lot, while she is quite dismissive of Hook. That could be why she went straight to Rumple to get his secret of a Happy Ending (even though Rumple had just lost his son).

Edited September 16, 2015 by Rumsy4

[LizaD]

 

Well, they managed to have Cora, Pan, Ingrid, and Rumple intelligent and use their brains despite having magic, so magic isn't necessarily incompatible with being clever.

 

The Cora we saw in Miller's Daughter that tricked Rump was brilliant! It didn't last very long though. I don't think she did anything particularly intelligent or creative in 2A or 2B present time. Besides shapeshifting with magic, she didn't really outsmart the princesses. Taking Aurora's heart was more magic too. Once she got to Storybrooke, it required Woegina being dumb and she beat Snowing purely with magic. I think Hook was smarter than she was in present time.

 

Rump was also brilliant in S1-S2 but shortly after Miller's Daughter, he too got a lobotomy. Nothing he's done after stands out as smart and with all the retcons they've done, his actions in S1 now seem kind of dumb too. Every plan of his after required the other characters being dumb as bricks than him being clever.

 

Pan was entertaining but nothing stands out to me as being really clever on the level of S1 Rump (pre retcons) or Cora tricking Rump.

 

Now I love Ingrid but how was Ingrid clever? She let a teen get away from her and then spent the next 15 or so years sitting on her ass selling ice cream. Her big plan to get Emma and Elsa to be her sisters failed on every level and was really amateurish. I don't even know what the hell she was doing with the ribbons of nonsense. Now she did manage to pull dumb Emma's strings but that plan backfired on her as it sent Emma straight to Rump.

 

I will throw an honorable mention to Snow's out all "super villainy" in taking out Cora. Now that too was smart. Too bad she's had to pay for it ever since.

Edited October 2, 2015 by LizaD

[Curio]

This is taken from a recent interview Lana did that's posted in the spoilers thread, but this section isn't spoilery:

 

[Regina's] been where Zelena is at and she’s been that character who has destroyed happiness, torn hearts out and has probably done more evil doings than anyone on the show if you think about it, from the villages she’s slaughtered to the thousands of hearts she’s ripped out. The fact that she’s been able to come out of that and become a hero is super admirable but I don’t know that Zelena is a redeemable character.

 

I don't get this. I'm actually shocked Lana acknowledged that Regina has done the most amount of evil on the show, but then why does she immediately say that Zelena isn't a redeemable character after that? How can you say that Regina deserves to be redeemed when she's done more evil than Zelena? Sure, Zelena is at a point right now where she's not seeking to become a better person, but Regina was once at that point, too. What's the difference between the two that I'm missing?

Edited October 2, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Sure, Zelena is at a point right now where she's not seeking to become a better person, but Regina was once at that point, too. What's the difference between the two that I'm missing?

 

Zelena has no one rooting for her to become a better person or giving a chance at being a part of something. She's been locked in a psych ward. Emma gave Regina a chance, Henry cheered her on, Mary Margaret is Regina's biggest advocate. Zelena? There's no one rooting for her, therefore, we shouldn't either.

 

Edited October 2, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Zelena has no one rooting for her to become a better person or giving a chance at being a part of something. She's been locked in a psych ward. Emma gave Regina a chance, Henry cheered her on, Mary Margaret is Regina's biggest advocate. Zelena? There's no one rooting for her, therefore, we shouldn't either.

 

When you put it like that, our heroes are super hypocritical.

 

Can we please get a season-long arc where Regina follows Zelena around like a puppy dog and begs her to become her best friend, takes her verbal sparring in stride, and then promises to give Zelena a happy ending with her new baby? And then Regina sacrifices her own happy ending by drinking an evil potion so that Zelena can give birth to her baby? It would be some great karmic retribution.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

When you put it like that, our heroes are super hypocritical.

 

But that's what it is, isn't it?

 

Emma gives Regina a chance because of Henry.

Henry goes from Regina is evil to you're not evil, you're my mom --> Whiplash!

Mary Margaret, no words.

 

Regina should be the one trying to get her sister to walk into the light, but she's not. She hates her and is very open about that hate. If everyone kept hating Regina, Regina would be hold up in her mansion, avoiding the world, but she's not because she was given a chance at being better, at doing better.

 

Zelena is the worst because she did something to Regina (not Robin). Regina was willing to forgive after the whole let's open a time portal debacle. Now, not so much! 

 

Different people, different rules.

 

Looking forward to seeing how everyone treats Gold when he wakes up from his coma. No one should forgive him for what he did last season. And yet...I'm sure they will with the exception of Hook, maybe.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Looking forward to seeing how everyone treats Gold when he wakes up from his coma. No one should forgive him for what he did last season. And yet...I'm sure they will with the exception of Hook, maybe.

 

But how do you reconcile this with how they might treat Emma after the Dark Swan arc? We know that Emma is not an evil person. She'd never do any of the crap she's doing without being possessed & tortured by all the darkness in all the realms. Emma at the very least should have a major understanding of how little control she had and could very realistically give Rumpel the benefit of understanding. That's why I hate this whole Evil!Emma arc. It absolves a whole hell of a lot of Rumpel's evil.

 

Now I fully expect that at the end of the arc, Emma will stand up and choose the light, so there is a bit of leeway to say that it's possible to stand up and fight the darkness and win, so Rumpel still sucks, but it's going to be a problem. On the other hand, Regina was handed choice after choice after choice and chance after chance after chance, and she doesn't have the excuse of some demon possessing her and influencing her thoughts at all hours of the day & night. Regina is just a straight up psychopath who now gets all the shinies because reasons. By that standard, Zelena too deserves endless chances and cheerleading and non-stop support from her victims. She deserves a happy ending too.  It seems to me that if Regina is calling for Zelena to continue to be punished, she fails on the whole I'm a hero now idea. And if Regina thinks that Zelena has to be punished for her crimes, so too then does Regina. 

[Camera One]

I just hate thinking of Emma as a villain now, but this arc looks like it will fall into the usual pattern.  We will find out via flashback how Dark Emma came to be, when she started out as a person headed into Camelot determined to resist the darkness.  En route, she will probably turn dark due to betrayals of the usual suspects (ie, those nasty parents of hers).  

[Mathius]

Emma won't be treated badly after she is cured from being the Dark One because Snowing will receive the blame for causing her to give into the darkness, naturally.

I don't get this. I'm actually shocked Lana acknowledged that Regina has done the most amount of evil on the show, but then why does she immediately say that Zelena isn't a redeemable character after that?

To be fair, Lana said she didn't KNOW if Zelena was a redeemable character or not, she didn't Zelena was definitely irredeemable. Still, it seems weird even saying that. If the villain who has done the most evil on the show can be redeemed and be a hero (or considered so on the show and its characters), shouldn't any other villain have that same opportunity?

[KAOS Agent]

Not really because Regina gets to be the judge, jury and executioner of Zelena and Regina is not held to the standard of all the other heroes. They have to forgive and cheerlead and plead with her to be their friend or they aren't good people. Regina can lock up her sister in the basement forever and steal her child and it's all totally righteous and cool. That's where the hypocrisy of this show is on clear display and it's staring the audience in the face. Most people aren't a fan of the Zelena = Marian rape baby storyline and the whole idea of taking the baby makes people very, very uncomfortable. Not that Zelena should raise it, but murderers and rapists don't lose access to their children and they certainly don't have the judge taunting them about it.

[Mathius]

And the judge almost certainly isn't ALSO a murderer and rapist!

[Faemonic]

I'm actually shocked Lana acknowledged that Regina has done the most amount of evil on the show, but then why does she immediately say that Zelena isn't a redeemable character after that?

 

There's no one rooting for her, therefore, we shouldn't either.

 

When you put it like that, our heroes are super hypocritical.

 

But that's what it is, isn't it?

 

This shows that there's definitely a lot of separation between the characters and the people that the characters are. Carlyle and O'Donoghue talked a lot earlier on about their characters being flat-out villains. I haven't heard Carlyle budge from that position, even though he makes Rumple do some very effective woobie-d'aww faces, but O'Dono must have glommed onto this not actually being that sort of show for his character because he adjusted his interpretation of Hook from "you'll want to have a laugh with him, a beer with him...only thing is, he could kill you if he wanted to--" adding on after Hook joined the main cast "but he'll have a cry about it after".

 

So, I think just because Lana knows that Regina is the "Writer's Pet" doesn't mean it's a cohesive morality (or a moral morality) either in-world of the show or outside of the show. In-show, the heroes are hypocrites. Out-of-show, the writers chase after shiny things and the actors are doing their best with the result of that.

 

On a tangent, I was actually glad that they brought Zelena back, because thematically this is a show about family issues and I had always thought Regina might not have developed so awfully if she'd only had siblings, so, Zelena went too soon. (Malcolm Pan, now, he earned his exit.) Now that Zelena's back, though, the sort of sibling rivalry is a train wreck that I do want to look away from.

[Rumsy4]

Arthur is one of the very few villains in the show whose fall and motives are at least semi-reasonable. I'm really enjoying the character! His relationship with Merlin has Ben/Jacob vibes: another acolyte who turned on his master. Very original. 

 

After all the sword=phallic allusions they've thrown at us, I'm inclined to think Artie has performance issues in other areas as well. Artie's self-esteem is inexorably tied to Excalibur, and he is too obsessed with his quest to be able to focus on such activities. I'm going to assume that Arthur hasn't slept with Guin after sanding her. He probably hadn't slept with her in a while even before that. However, I'm sure A&E are never going to address the consent-issues in that relationship. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[HoodlumSheep]

I love Arthur so much! It's true, he has better reasons to become a villain than most. And Liam does a very good job portraying him.

I too, sometimes wonder if Arthur and Guin have not canoodled for a very long time. Arthur seems so obsessed with the sword, that I doubt he gave Guin that much attention. Still not cool what he did though and A&E will never address the consent issue. He's totally snapped and I love his current team up with Zelena.

Also, he's pretty much booted Ingrid down a peg on my favorite villains list (of those who have not been redeemed/"redeemed"). Sorry Ingrid, your time in my personal top 5 was short-lived.

1. Cora

2. Jafar

3. Pan

4. Cruella

5. Arthur

Edited November 12, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Curio]

I keep thinking back to Regina saying to Rumple, "You son of a bitch. You made me like this. You made me the Evil Queen." And it's like...no, Regina. Rumple did not make you the Evil Queen. He might have been one part of the equation, but ultimately, you decided to become that villain by making terrible choices on your own. Now, Dark One Hook on the other hand? Yeah. He can actually say "You made me like this" to Emma, and it's not really a hyperbole.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Hades fulfills the role of an intimidating villain well. I admit, he's kind of a scary dude. The only real issue so far is that we've seen snarky villains so many times before. He doesn't bring much newness to the table aside from getting dirtier and inflicting more pain on his victims. He hasn't gotten his centric yet, so those are just my early thoughts.

He's similar to Rumple in many respects.

Edited March 16, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I agree KoH. He's very much like Rumple. Also, the villain one-hand jokes stopped being funny the first time they used it. H seems to be easily the most powerful villain we've seen so far. And yet, he doesn't simply just kick the Nevengers out of the Underworld?? I hope we get some explanation as to why he is letting them run around, freeing souls. However, I like him well enough, especially after the "punishment" meted out to Cora. It will be interesting to see how this develops. Or at least, I hope it will. :-p

[YaddaYadda]

I thought his line about having a smooth running operation was interesting. Of course, it will likely amount to nothing more than him hoarding souls, and not allowing anyone to move on.

[Camera One]

Hades does seem more the style of Rumple-mind games than the over-the-top dramatics of Zelena or The Evil Queen.  But the fact that he has done nothing makes him completely non-threatening to me.  We don't know his powers, nor limitations nor overarching plan, so it's hard to figure out what's what.  I'm glad they're using him sparingly thus far, though.  

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe not knowing his limitations or what he's up to makes it a bit more challenging for the heroes? I mean if we already knew what he could and couldn't do, I would be all up on the whole, why aren't they doing this instead of that train so fast, my own head would spin.

[Shanna Marie]

But the fact that he has done nothing makes him completely non-threatening to me.

Considering the state Hook's in, I wouldn't say he's done nothing. He (or perhaps his minions) has caused more physical damage and pain than any villain thus far. Usually, they just wave their hands around and fling things around and make speeches, or if they do cause death, it's done all campy Regina style, with her crazy eyes while she's crushing hearts, and no one seems to care. But Hades is either torturing or ordering the torture of Hook and leaving him bloody and battered. So far, that seems at odds with the rest of Hades' behavior, but it does seem to be more of a threat and more of a sense of consequence than we usually get from villains at this point in the arc. At this point, Pan was making speeches, Zelena was poofing people into flying monkeys while making speeches, Ingrid was freezing things while making speeches, and the Queens of Darkness were joyriding. Hades at least has caused physical harm to a major character, and that harm has lingered for more than one episode.

[Mathius]

I hope why Hades doesn't just come in and kill the heroes himself is explained. Pan was in a similar position, and it was explained that, beyond wanting to have fun and "play" with the heroes first, Pan's waning lifeforce made his powers weaker than everyone thought they were and any excessive use of them would just speed up his time that was running out. Maybe Hades has some sort of limitation on him too, perhaps placed there by Zeus.

The most likely answer is that he isn't allowed to harm people who aren't a part of his domain, and that would explain why he wants to have the heroes' souls trapped so that they can become a part of his domain, THEN he can harm them.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

Maybe not knowing his limitations or what he's up to makes it a bit more challenging for the heroes? I mean if we already knew what he could and couldn't do, I would be all up on the whole, why aren't they doing this instead of that train so fast, my own head would spin.

I'm hoping he's not like Zelena in 3B in that at first he seems like a formidable foe because he's so mysterious, only to be revealed later that his plans are stupid. But as Shanna Marie pointed out, he's done something to prove he's not just all bark. The bloodiness of Hook's state does a good job of showing us that he means business. If Hook only had a few scars, it wouldn't have the same impact. While we haven't seen Hades do much torturing yet, we have evidence he's capable of beating his victims to a pulp. So, at least his snarky cockiness is backed up to some degree.

 

I'm worried what his relationship with Zelena will do, though.

Edited March 17, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Jul 68]

I never saw the movie, so I have no real pre-conceived notions of how Hades should he. With that said, I am loving Germann's performance. As said above, he's more Rumple than Zelina and that's a good thing. I wish that folks who saw the movie would stop comparing him to James Woods. Sometimes even James Woods isn't James Woods.

Regarding A&E not showing Hades or his minions beating Hook, I have a hunch that has more to do with ABC's S&P Department than anything else.

[Camera One]

I wasn't that enarmoured with James Woods in the animated movie.  I remember being quite excited to see "Hercules" back in the day, but it was really a hit and miss, Hades included.  I do think Germann has been fine so far.  He's playing a similar wise-cracking yet menacing demeanor.  And I hope it stays that way.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

If the show attempted to replicate James Woods, it would be too cartoony imo. Germann can talk like a salesman but also strike a chill down your spine. Woods was never particularly intimidating. He was more of a blind fury with a bad temper. Germann's anger is always just below the surface, much like Rumple.

[orza]

The movie was a kiddie cartoon so of course Hades was pretty tame so as not to scare the six-years-olds watching it. This show is for an older audience so that character wouldn't work here. Casting James Woods for a live-action Hades would have been a huge casting mistake. He is an old man now with white hair.

[Curio]

I wouldn't have been able to take James Woods seriously on this show after watching Family Guy. All I'd keep thinking in my head is, "Oh! A piece of candy."

[OnceUponAJen]

I love Greg Germann in this role! He brings a latently menacing vibe, which I like. I like watching characters that are a bit unpredictable. He can bring the comedy and the drama.

[KingOfHearts]

Hades succeeds as a villain but I don't give a flying flapjack about him as a character. His love for Zelena is trite and I possess no interest in seeing a flashback of his meany brother Zeus getting all the shinies. Other than that, he's still very clever and intimidating. It's always entertaining to see Rumple wrapped around someone's finger, too.

Edited April 12, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Is anyone else wondering about limited Hades' powers are though? I mean he hasn't really come anywhere near his new visitors other than to "introduce" himself. I'm not counting Rumple in that because he knew he would be able to make a deal with him, and he was extremely creepy when he touched Belle's stomach. 

 

And every episode since he's had someone has been doing his bidding. It was Cora, Rumple, Liam, Rumple again, Gaston and Belle to an extent. 

 

I find that interesting, and it makes me wonder exactly how powerful he is. He can't contend with light magic, and so far he's made some vague threats. I don't think he can hurt the living at all, even in the Underworld.

[CheshireCat]

 I don't think it's fair at all to blame Rumple for Regina kidnapping and imprisoning Belle for thirty years after he released her. That's a bit much.

 

I didn't mean that Rumple is to blame. Regina did it, plain and simple. What I meant is that Rumple played a part in who Regina became and had he not done it, then Regina wouldn't have had a reason to imprison Belle. Yes, the seed was there but while we have never been told, I believe, I think it's pretty much agreed that Regina was a teenager when he came into her life and that is the age people are the most vulnerable, need the most guidance and are easily malleable and I'm not convinced that Regina would have become who she became had Rumple left her alone. She wouldn't have been able to use magic for once thing and he also made sure that she believed that revenge was all she had left and that she stuck to the path he wanted her to stick to whenever she was going into a different direction for whatever reason.

 

Do I think that Regina had a right to imprison Belle? No. Do I understand why she did it? Yes. (Which doesn't mean I think it was right, it's just a logical development of where the character went)

Regina and Rumple were playing a power game. She was very ambitious and in a very different way from Zelena - Zelena just wanted to impress Rumple. Regina seemed to want to best him. She became very confident and I'd go as far as say that she slipped out of Rumple's control at one point. So, I'd say by assuring Regina would once cast his curse, Rumple played with fire and when you play with fire you have to expect to get burned and Rumple did get burned. So, I find it impossible to view him as completely innocent in the matter. (And just to be clear, I'm not excusing what Regina did to Belle or am saying it's all Rumple's fault. I'm just saying, Rumple's actions had consequences, too, and that Regina chose to capture Belle was a consequence of his actions. But I also believe that (back then) Belle was still completely innocent and shouldn't have been the one who had to suffer).

[Mathius]

I find that interesting, and it makes me wonder exactly how powerful he is. He can't contend with light magic, and so far he's made some vague threats. I don't think he can hurt the living at all, even in the Underworld.

 

I agree, I think that he may be able to hurt Emma, Snow and Regina now that their names are on gravestones thus confining them to the Underworld, but he still can't risk that since they're always in a group and Emma possesses powerful light magic, which is his weakness.  Like Pan, he relies more on strategy than power, which is refreshing.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Mathius

[InsertWordHere]

Is anyone else wondering about limited Hades' powers are though? I mean he hasn't really come anywhere near his new visitors other than to "introduce" himself

I don't think he can harm the living. I really like that Hades isn't an overpowered villain, unlike Pan in 3A and Zelena in 3B. Like Pan, he has control over his domain, but he doesn't always win even with the home team advantage.

[Mathius]

To be fair, Pan didn't always win either, and the heroes would have bested him completely if it weren't for Henry being a complete dumbass.  But yeah, as I said on another thread, Hades is even more of an even-handed opponent, since the limitations on his power seem greater (they'd have to be, since he's a freaking god and would otherwise be overpowered) and he has no real set plan, he wasn't even planning on the heroes coming to the Underworld in the first place.

[Camera One]

Hades was apparently personally torturing Hook in his throne room.  Yet he was so half-assed about trapping Regina, Emma and Co.  Why didn't he put another spell on the elevator that it can't come back up again?  Plus I don't buy how he was all "bygones" in regards to Rumple betraying him.  He hardly showed any anger afterwards and didn't even bother stopping Rumple from coming up to his "new kingdom" Storybrooke.  

[KingOfHearts]

Pan was underutilized in 5B. He came back in the premiere, disappeared for about 7 episodes, then returned for a cliffhanger and one more episode. It's never explained where he went or what he was doing all that time he was missing. In the end he sort of just... "died". In my personal opinion, it wasn't worth bringing him back for what we got. 

Edited June 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Pan was underutilized in 5B. He came back in the premiere, disappeared for about 7 episodes, then returned for a cliffhanger and one more episode. It's never explained where he went or what he was doing all that time he was missing. In the end he sort of just... "died". In my personal opinion, it wasn't worth bringing him back for what we got.

Yeah, you could remove him from the entire story without changing anything about the outcome. Rumple was motivated more by baby Damien than by anything Pan was doing, and Rumple could have done everything he did without Pan's help. Pan didn't really pose a threat to our heroes or their goals. But you could kind of say the same about Cruella. It wouldn't be too hard to remove her from the story without changing anything. I guess she got Henry going in looking for the Apprentice, which led him to the pen, but that's the kind of thing Henry might have done on his own, and it turned out that he never took what she said about making Emma not be a murderer seriously. The Blind Witch could have done most of the other stuff Cruella did. There wasn't anything about Cruella's role that couldn't have been filled by any snarky bad girl. I don't think her animal control powers even came up, did they? Both she and Pan fell into the "we'd be disappointed if we didn't see them" category, but they weren't really used to any extent.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Both she and Pan fell into the "we'd be disappointed if we didn't see them" category, but they weren't really used to any extent.

With Cruella, I believe she had more purpose for existing. Her role has never been major in the grand scheme of things. She oftentimes plays the comic relief or the agitator used to demoralize the heroes. Additionally, she was usually the lackey for a higher power, such as Maleficent or Hades. Pan, by contrast, moved the plot forward in elaborate, gigantic ways. He manipulated many pawns and just got more crap done. He kidnapped Henry, which was the catalyst for 3A, and then cast another curse, which opened the gate for 3B. While Cruella and Pan were both weighted with a lot of presence, one was more critical to the plot than the other.

Cruella can chew scenery and be entertaining. So can Pan. But since he's the puppet master he is, I expected him to have a greater influence on the events of 5B. It was like as if Cora came back, only to be in the 100th episode. There wouldn't be a point other than to say she returned to the screen.

Edited June 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

That was a really good point.  Peter Pan's cameo in 5B was pointless.  His "deals" with Rumple amounted to nothing.  They used Pan for intrigue and expected audience to completely forget by the time the arc was over.  It's weak when you could do an "insert a villain" / "insert a hero" type of thing with so many characters and plotlines on this show.  It actually reduces Peter Pan's power from 3A to use him in this way.  It raised even more questions since where the hell did he go for 7 episodes, as KingofHearts said.

Prince James was also pointless, and his absence was also quizzical.  Why wasn't he giving everyone hell during their entire stay in The Underworld?

And then there was The Blind Witch.  She seemed perfectly innocuous the entire arc serving breakfast and drinks, and then she locks them in the library with Cruella at the end?  WTF?  

[KingOfHearts]

At this point, it's hard to picture what to think of Hades. He was intimidating and had a lot of presence as a villain, but he falls completely short as a character. In the past, Big Bad flashbacks have been overbearing. However, part of me wishes we could have gotten some sort of flashback showing Hades' relationship with Zeus or how the Underworld came to be. We were forced to take his word for it, which didn't really work considering he lied most of the time. His fling with Zelena was boring and didn't add anything to his story. It gave Zelena relevance, but that was it. 

It seemed as though we were missing some critical bits in 5B. There was plenty of intrigue and implied depth, but it ended up being very two-dimensional. Hades personifies that.

[Curio]

3 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I know I've often seen complaints here about scene-chewing, but…forgive me for saying it, that’s been an aspect of this show since the very beginning? Regina and Rumpel did it in season 1, Cora in 2, etc. etc. If you can’t really get into scene-chewing villains, you probably picked up the wrong show?

I think there's a difference between being theatrical and being so campy that it comes off as secondhand embarrassment. With Robert Carlyle, even though he'll chew the scenery, he does so in a way where you totally believe it's Rumple on screen behaving realistically. Pan was another scenery chewer who didn't take it overboard. I like those kinds of performances a lot. But I feel like Bex and Lana fall into the latter category where all I see is the actresses looking at the script and going, "How over-the-top and cheesy can I take this?" I actually think Bex has improved a lot since her Season 3 campiness and I enjoyed her performance more in Season 5 because she toned back the camp and added more layers to her acting. Conversely, it seems like Lana has taken Regina to the opposite spectrum and has made her performance more cartoonish over the seasons.

The other issue I have with the scenery chewing is that the show takes itself so damn seriously. If this was a more lighthearted show with more comedic aspects than dramatic aspects, the scenery chewing would fit right in. But since the writers care more about melodramatic and dramatic scenes, the scenery chewing can sometimes feel out of place or like whiplash when the majority of the characters who aren't Rumple, Regina, or Zelena all have to act so serious and dramatic all the time. If Hook and Emma and Snow were allowed to act more theatrical, I wouldn't mind the campy villains as much.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Curio